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About maurdakar

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    Senior Member
  • Birthday 07/19/1989
  1. <p>Aww, thanks Maurdakar. I was upset, but I understand now. It's all good. ^.^</p>

  2. <p>Hey Nikaa, hope Horde is treating you well. I wanted to drop you a line and let you know that I was clearing out many of my Battlenet friends with the exceptions of family and people I know IRL (have met live nearby). I didn't remove you for personal reasons and still think your a simply fantastic person, though still far too tempting a target to tease.</p>

    <p>I think the only Battletag member to survive the purge was Moonjade.</p>

    <p>Hope we can still be on friends lists aside from the Battletag, i was just cleaning that too and of course kept ya!</p>

    <p>Hope yer having fun with Mists!</p>

  3. I agree this thread is stupid. I wanted it to be fun. It's successfully derailed now though. Hey do you guys have any gripes or inconsistencies that have frustrated you relating to WoW lore?
  4. Nearly half of your counter arguments are all speculation. Whether its trying to argue how the humans would not have discovered Kalimdor even though its a week away (which in my opinion cements an unreasonable bias), inserting reasons for the Elves to hold these grudges, and verbalize them in nonsensical ways, or conjuring explanations for why the Orcs don't realize that the undead are the Lorderan who enslaved them, I get the impression you missed my point: It's information we're never told, despite being rather key to the story. Take for example Alexstraza. Alexstraza was kidnapped, and raped by orcs. The Dragonmaw, who are in the Horde now. Seems to me she would be pretty pissed about that whole affair, and mad at the Horde. Or maybe not. See maybe she forgives them. Maybe Alexstraza thinks there are bigger threats facing all life of Azeroth or considers that the Orcs (who helped save Azeroth and thus all life on it from the legion) are redeemed. You could have a quick few touching lines from Alexstraza about how she loves all life, and cares about the Orcs now too despite what the Old Horde did. There are perfectly reasonable explanations like this we can imagine. However this whole event is never mentioned or referenced by Alexstraza. So an important plot point from the previous games hangs limply, new players lose a chance to learn how Alexstraza and the Horde have evolved. It's more than just a missed opportunity, it feels like white washing WC history to better suit what Blizzard is trying to sell now to Horde (and Alliance) players. Instead you choose to take this all as a personal attack against the Horde and fixate on defending it, rather than reading it as a larger commentary about the story. I think its my own fault since the post is only half finished, the Alliance and neutral characters are never referenced. Prove It You constantly asking my to prove my point. Which I can, but only have the time for a couple right now. Before I do though, I notice you seem to have a tactful knowledge of the lore when it suits you, which is odd, since your quite demanding when I reference it. Anyways I would expect most people here to be lore hounds. So about the Orcs raping things. See Garona. About the orcs working for Satan. See WC1 where the humans constantly mention the devil and how the Orcs are allied with hell. This is all from the WC1 manual.Again i mention the Orcs allying with Satan as a joke. Originally in WC1 the Orcs were allied with Hell. No not the Legion and all that, just hell. This was later retconned, but this is second time I'm iterating the point. As for the sailing the ocean in a week thing. I actually went back to WC3 to check this. It took the orcs several weeks to travel west. I assume they didn't have much training so they smashed most of their ships. Later the humans arrive on Kalimdor, and their fine. Both had only verbal instructions to "go west" by Mediv. So it is canon that the conspicuously absent Kul Tiras did exist for as long as the other human nations (centuries) and did have a huge merchant and war fleet. So they never traveled a week west? The humans of Kul Tiras are stated to be adventurous and always looking for new lands right? The secret technique for navigating the Malestrom, is going around it. Did no one ever think to try that? You play up this Journey as some epic expedition. The Greeks and the Egytpians sailed the seas you point out. This is true, and they did for months, sometimes years at a time. This isn't some huge quest its a continent a freaking week away. I'm surprised a Gryphon Rider didn't spot it (sarcasm). This is a logical fallacy because its difficult to believe! Impossible even. Any reason you can give is again, invented, by you. It isn't something explained by the Lore and that's my point. Well maybe you're a little fun. yes the Orcs mention slavery quite a bit, no I didn't count but it depends largely on which zones you quest in. When it is brought up it is explicitly in reference to the Alliance, and how they are mad at them? The context heavily implies, and in some cases outright says the Orcs are peeved at the existing human forces for the whole slavery shin dig. Which I've explained doesn't make sense because we are never told why they wouldn't then be angry at the Belfs or Forsaken. There are plenty of plausible reasons (which are all conjured by you) but the point is it seems like the creators of the Lore aren't aware this should be an issue, that should be brought up, addressed, kept in mind and then moved on from. For Thrall i think we just disagree on his character. Which is fine. I've never seen him as an impractical guy, just as someone who was eager to exist peacefully with the Alliance. Since he says things which pretty much translate into: "I want to exist peacefully with the alliance." Seems like a change in wardrobe would be an easy temporary way to communicate this. Again the reasons you provide aren't totally nonsensical, but I'm balancing them against Blizzards track record of Lore creation and business concerns. You still haven't said anything to sway me to your side, but that may be an opinion thing. I don't really have a ton of time left for now, so I think I should close by saying. I have been informed in private that you are the biggest horde apologist of all time and will likely not take a reasonable approach or joking manner about this thread. Seeing as how you will likely continue to dissect this thread and use the cut and paste tactic till we are completely off the rails. Therefore my hat is off to you sir, arguing between us will do nothing as no matter what I say you will only offer chipped apart and questionable counter arguments. In future don't be so quotey, it's rude, and impossible to respond to and favorite tactic of intentional trolls, if you weren't aware. You're not even being any fun about this, it doesn't make me mad, just tired. Can we rip apart the Alliance?
  5. Your unfairly picking apart a semi-comedic post. I'm not even sure how to respond, since most of what I was writing was supposed to be nonsensical. Thanks for not completely dismissing me out of hand though? Its like your being a smart ass to a smart ass post. Anyways, you completely ignore the context of most of what I said. Okay first off with Garrosh. When countries being led by autocrats have fallen, they have always suffered severe penalties, such as de-militarization or trade tariffs, usually as a punishment. The idea that Garrosh is pulling all of this off and the blame is entirely upon him is so nonsensical I don't even know how to respond. You don't really try to argue against my point about Orc culture. The point was this a preemptive complaint, because we know once again the Horde is going to have done something horrid and will likely suffer little to no consequences. The Orc commander is a bastard, um, thank you for going into detail as to why he is. We should also also clarify the Satan thing. Back in WC1 Orcs and Humans it was largely implied (if not outright stated) I believe that the Orcs were allied with the devil, and the humans represented the good christian Europeans. None of the Warcraft lore had really been thought up at that point so I was basically making a reference to that, you mistake this wink and nudge as me (an Atheist) being a hard line Christian. Wait. Do you know much about WoW Lore or is this all reflexive. Also yes Orcs confirmed to rape, unless your going to argue that they were hella into breeding programs and raping Draenei, but didn't do the same to humans? I mean since it is outright stated that Gul'Dan's Horde is raping Draenei all over the place, I just assumed they would also take the time to rape some humans while they were killing them. So you got me I guess? Now about the slavery thing. You argue that Stormwind and Lorderan were really tight, which they were. That doesn't reinforce your own argument though. One, the Orcs were enslaved IN Lorderan and rebuilt Lorderan, while even Stormwind had to fall back on swindling the masons guild to get their city out of of disrepair. Two, my point was that the Orcs never realize or make any mention that the Forsaken are the people of Lorderan. If Lorderan was as tight with Stormwind, which it was, you'd think the Orcs would have even deeper qualms with them, but no where is it mentioned by any of them. As for the slavery thing, well Thrall is always on about it in the books, he even mentions it directly thrice in game during Cataclysm. If you were counting as you leveled (which I did) it comes up pretty often. My point is the Orcs are still awfully sore about it, but their rage is directed against the Stormwinders, which doesn't make sense. I think your missing the point here. It isn't about me saying: "The Forsaken and Orcs should be fighting!" Its that if Blizzard had a better handled on their lore they could add just a few throw away lines or even some quest text to explain this. Well they can't now, not at this point. Its not about me thinking the Horde should be a mess of in-fighting, its that this could be corrected. You really seem to have taken this as a personal attack against yourself or the integrity of the Horde when its more of a "calling out" Blizzard on an increasingly fractured story. While we're on the topic of Thrall, I mentioned the Doomhammer armor thing. You come up with a cockney argument about how Thrall could be using it as a subtle threat. Thrall is never portrayed in this manner, and in the scene in the comics I'm mentioning is not pushing the whole "don't mess with us", idea, he has Garrosh beside him to do that. Instead Thrall is vehemently arguing that the orcs have changed. While wearing a glaring reminder of the old horde. So you concocting some subliminal character-breaking theory, is a lot less likely then what I argued: That Blizzard insists the main characters always wear their iconic gear due to business concerns. Thrall also shows indifference when told the Horde is going back to the old Horde. Um, I explained that this is bad because we need to sympathize with him as a protagonist, but I thought it went without saying that it was massively character breaking for the peace loving, orc-jesus to shrug of the mention that his people are turning sour and in danger. You actually try to debate the "One week to sail across to Kalimdor" thing. Wait, the elves had the most ships? Hang on, DO you know much about lore? Or are we trolling one another? Um. I'm not sure if this is entirely canonical since it came from an RPG book. (Those were all disavowed right?) But it is canon that Kul-Tiras has had an enormous, and extremely powerful merchant and military fleet for centuries. So my point is it doesn't make any sense that the humans never discovered Kalimdor if it takes ONE WEEK to sail there. Not only does it take a week to sail there in the Tides of War book, but this is consistent with the travel time in the comics and other novels. Again I look forward to you inventing something but I'm balancing this against the idea that; "Blizzard hired on a lore team that hasn't read the history in depth." Wait you just ceded your whole argument in a manner similar to how I do at the end of my post. Feels like mine was supposed to be semi-comedic while this was unintentional though, was it? To clarify if your backed into a corner where you throw up your hands and say; "It's a game." Why do you care about any of this anyways? Why are you even in the Lore thread at all? I also need to add a lot of you quoting me is incredibly short, completely taking single sentences out of context and then skewering them. Was this intentional?If your going to say the Forsaken respect "free will" then your being awfully technical about it. It should really be re-written to "Do not use mind control spells." The Devs say they respect free will, but they totally kill people for no reason other than pure malice and they ressurect them into possibly mindless undead to fight for them and kill their enemies. So then to say: 'They respect free will' seems like it must be a pretty narrow and technical definition of the subject which completely ignores the spirit of such a value, or really any decency at all. My point about Blizzards idea of redemption, free will and sacrifice in a story is always tied to the idea of pro-action. Which makes sense if your a game company, would be a pretty boring game if the story became less about action and fighting and more about emotions. Yet these themes are tied to emotional states. Also you may reject my idea of redemption, but that's because such ideas are internalized. However, I have yet to meet any sizable number of people who think redemption entails throwing up your hands and declaring yourself redeemed, which is essentially what the Orcs did. I want to sleep now, but I really want to reiterate that you chopped up my post into really small quotes so they could be easy for you to pick apart. Mean trolling a whimsy troll, I'm not even made angry by trolling anymore. It just makes me tired. Lets look at a highlight reel: -Um. This is explained. I explained throughout the post many times what I was frustrated with. -Mhmm. I love how many of these are out of order to further make me seem dumber. -Your alright Slag -Ya my point is that the reason that was presented earlier (in an out of game story which is an old fan-fic) is kind of overshadowed by what Lor'Themar implies: Racism. -Ya the character-breaking reasoning (which also goes against the scene) which you invent, is much more likely than the common commercial practice of showing characters in one outfit. Your a barrel of laughs of Slag, I like you. I'll come back to this later.
  6. @ Sett -Ya I agree. I understand big I.P.s like this are basically a business, but its sad when the artistry and logic in a universe you love begins to suffer. I think a prime example of this was opening more classes to more races. Yes I can believe that an exceptional individual in any race can effectively become anything. The Race/Class restrictions are one the last real examples of lore having an impact on the game itself, when it becomes muddied, so are the distinct themes of each race. Thats all opinion of course. @Gor -I don't believe Anduin will die. Maybe punched off a cliff but not killed. Like a comic book character, Blizzard has invested time and money into the character and can potentially make a lot more money off him in the future.
  7. Fair enough. I get mah authoritah by reading all the books, owning all the comics and leveling up to max on both factions. At the end of the day its just as legitimate authoritah as one can have. as legitimate as cartmans As for the factional Bias I haven't written up yet what i think about the Alliance. There are less plot holes, and gaps in logic, but large parts are unnecessarily confusing and the faction leaders themselves are inconsistent and falling on their faces constantly. They can't even settle on a voice actress for Tyrande, much less a model or personality.
  8. Garrosh- Wait what? This is entirely opinion but how does what you just said make sense. You just said "It is Garrosh fault. Because he has a position of absolute power." But. What? People are still choosing to side with him and do what he says. How is having a title at all exempting the Horde from evil by association. Isn't there free will? The point was also closely related to the culture of the Orcs, and how its messed and needs to changed. If they largely disagree with Garrosh but are committing and leading these violent and murderous actions in his name anyways just cuz: "He's the Warchief" doesn't that sort of support the whole argument I made. Furthermore we know Garrosh is going to face a rebellion. Alright fine. Thank goodness the Horde leaders had the courage to stand up and face him, once they were the ones with people suffering. And now the Alliance is going to have to sit and listen to the Horde say; "No, we're the New NEW Horde this time. Really we're good this time, honest." The Alliance called, they have a fist full of justice on their backs, and their here ready to begin delivering it yo YOUR Horde children. Guess then we will be the bad guys. This going to end with the Alliance taking the pounding they did in Cataclysm, and the Horde feeling no guilt for the whole affair or suffering anything near equal repercussions. Thrall was in Tides of War, when told about Garrosh his reaction is basically: "meh." You, can't really argue that point. I wasn't referring to the upcoming story in Pandas. Slavery. Ya this is true. My point is that its totally ignored by the lore team. Orcs were slaves who were forced to rebuild Lorderan after the war. Confirmed. Forsaken are the undead remains of the people of Lorderan. Also confirmed. Orcs are constantly harping on how mad they are at the Stormwind humans, accusing them of being the slavers, also true. (The people they committed genocide against) This is a logical fallacy and plot hole. The Orcs don't have any real motivation to want to burn Stormwind to the ground. They should be remorseful that the whole event took place way way back. The humans on the other hand are right where they need to be, their full of over-righteous zeal. They are hell bent on revenge to the point where it is fanatical. But you can still sympathize with them, because of where their coming from. At least their motivations make sense. Stomrwinders have every reason to hate Orcs and Orcs... "Well we've always been fighting humans, and those guys are humans so..." Lorthemar was getting picked on specifically for the wording in his sentences. That wasn't fair I agree. I'm also super excited because he's stepping up, finally some BELF pride. He says "Jaina has gone to far." Ya maybe, But is he really surprised? Is he really up to date on what shes been through? Is he aware of how far this conflict has escalated? He also says the Alliance are bigots. Again casting this assumption over the existing because a general representing Lorderan (again the people who are now in the Horde) a while back hurt Kael'Thas pride. I point out the irony that people who are ignoring all the evidence and screeching about the Alliance being racist are hilariously, racist, for taking the actions of one human and casting them over the entire race which has proven to be friendly and amicable (provided you didn't introduce yourself as a servant of Satan and try to murder them). What Lorthemar should have said was something like: "We never abandoned our old alliances! We stand by the people of Lorderan just as we always have!" Not only would this placate Sylvanas, reinforce obvious lore, reject Kale'Thas philosophy and move the blood elves into a more positive light. The Lorderani were their friends. Just cuz their husks now, maybe they still want to help this group of people they had bled with and intermarried. Instead Lorthemar brings up Garithos. Great. This question about the forsaken was asked and answered very recently. I don't think you can convince me that a blizzard reply from a year ago, was directed at lore from Vanilla. I think its much more likely that Blizzard is desperately clinging to certain pre-ascribed lines. Clearly you agree, the Forsaken are basically pure malevolence at this point. That's fine, they are a great addition to the story and I really like them. Sure there are individual examples and characters in the Forsaken who are not evil, and that makes for some great drama and story potential. The Forsaken are basically just plain bad at this point. Yet somehow the rest of the Horde gets to be allied with them (and fight with them, plenty of Orcs in the Gilnean starting zone) and not suffer any moral crisis in the eyes of its player base or fans. Its frustrating. I see differences in opinion here between us, this wasn't a serious first post, but I can cite evidence for each case. I just don't see how this is wrong. My major point, that the main characters are not intelligent is constantly reinforced in the books, comics, even in games. They never seem to know whats happening elsewhere, are taken by surprise and completely lack logical follow ups when speaking to enemy leaders. Also Blizzard is just bad at character consistency. Take the whole Doomhammer thing. Doomhammer is a sincerely evil dude. He did awful things, and was never possessed by no demon blood. Orcs can just be bad to the core, anyone can. Yet Thrall whenever he is arguing the Horde has changed, wears Doomhammer's armor and openly honors his memory. In the comics this is most obvious when there is a peace council in Theramore, and Thrall shows up in the aforementioned duds. He basically says to Varian's face that the Horde has changed, while wearing the gear of the Orc who perpetrated the second war. Thrall would never be this stupid, but Blizzard would be. They were likely worried that unless they portrayed their main characters in their iconic armor sets that the reader would be confused. *sigh* The Horde is no longer morally ambiguous, they tossed that out in Cataclysm. Their straight up dark and teeming with negativity, so's the Alliance, but the difference is its provoked, and their motivations are justified. The Alliance are on the verge of slipping down into dark places, while the Horde instead of trying to climb out, is just painting a big target on Garrosh. Alright I'll cede that the story of WoW makes sense. Its the story of a world. But personal stories, and lead characters in the Lore are a mess. If you think i'm not backing up my opinion, then lets start citing evidence. There's enough supporting me that I'm sitting pretty comfortably right now. The biggest flaw in my argument is that its frustration for a story we haven't even been teased about yet. We don't know how this will all go down, but I am bracing for more of a mess.
  9. I had high hopes for this expansion. Starting it out things seemed consistent, and consistency was something WoW lore has severely lacked. While I'm pleased with the focus and attention to continuing a story, the mess surrounding the plot, main characters, and motivations staggering. There are many little problems, but once again the continued issue is primarily with the Horde. This isn't a personal attack, don't take it as such, its more a general complaint directed at blizzard who has crafted a narrative that feels like a sloppy poorly constructed mess which feels it was written by twenty different people, probably because its a sloppy poorly constructed mess, written by twenty different people. Now when Pandas first began I was happy to see the Horde finally acting in a consistent manner. Story wise the Horde has always been much more grim and nasty than the Alliance, and the people of the Horde reflect that. The Horde's actions have always been borderline evil, BUT, Blizzard has always insisted they are not the bad guys (and avoided any follow up or request for proof of this other than: "Hey look at Thrall"). Right off the bat the orcs are large, in charge and brutal and nasty and mean. They come across as hard-asses who use violence and physical strength to get their way, which is great because consistently through the lore they are portrayed as hard-asses who use violence and physical strength to get their way. Consistency is key here. The Orc commander is rude, dominant and violent, so basically an Orc. Likewise on the Alliance side you see a gathering of the races driven by ideals. There's a grandeur and royal romance which permeates around them. However, there is a sense that in the wake of Northrend and Cataclysm (Where the Horde essentially invade everything and constantly attack them) they are filled with over-righteous zeal. There's a pageantry, gallantry and optimism surrounding them, but also an uneasy fanatical tone in the way they go about engaging and killing Horde. You can really feel their zealotry justified though, the over-enthusiastic captain of the Alliance flagship was a native of Soutshore, shes there to get sweet sweet revenge, while the Orc commander is just a bastard who wants to take stuff, and is motivated by, well nothing but being an orc I guess. This is all perfect because the motivations of these early characters make sense, and are consistent with WoW lore. Going on through the expansion though, the main characters, aka: The faction leaders, take center stage, and already things begin to fall apart. -Massive 5.1 spoliers.So my issues are the old ones being reinforced but also some new ones: 1) Way to much blame is being shouldered on Garrosh. I really struggled not to mention Hitler and the Nazis here, because that comparison is so felling overused in modern debate that its sad. Really any violent dictator will do. So sure Garrosh is a bad dude, and now even Horde apologists are struggling, struggling to wipe all the egg off their faces and change tune. But way to many of the negative actions of the Horde are somehow tied back to Garrosh. Garrosh is one guy. He appoints people, well just Orcs, who share his views, into positions of power and command sure, but really his continued leadership reflects the massive cultural problems the Orcs have. To put it simply, their culture is violent and destructive. It wasn't always that violent, and sure plenty of Orcs aspire to the positive aspects of their ancestral heritage, but there are some deep rooted problems with the nature of their beliefs and practices. Instead of enshrining culture (because you know its culture) they need to approach it pragmatically. Garrosh is being set up for a fall, but it's almost a little too perfect, and with no mention of the fact that Garrosh must have massive support behind him I get the feeling this is gonna be another Blizzard "redemption". Someone kills something or someone else thus redeeming or undoing huge systemic faults and grievances. Ironically Garrosh has kind of taken the place Mannoroth once occupied, once defeated/killed/overthrown the Orcs (or in this case the Horde) will triumphantly declare themselves innocent of any previous wrongdoing and wash their hands of any guilt they feel. I like that this "redemption" Thrall and Hellscream won originally is being brought into serious question (as in, how the hell does killing a demon you willfully teamed up with for entirely selfish reason count as redemption), but I also worry that once again Blizzard is stumbling on this concept of redemption. *Kerrigan *Thrall/Hellscream *So many Diablo examples wtf... In order to be redeemed you have to apologize, admit fault, actually feel sorry (only you would know for sure) and then do something to make it right. You can't just live through some traumatic event, and declare yourself redeemed. There doesn't have to be forgiveness but you should seek it out. 2)Thrall says: "Ain't my problem." in the Tides of War book, when confronted with the Horde negativity. This is bad because a) Its almost entirely his fault for not addressing the cultural issues for decades and b) contributing to the idea that Orcs hadn't changed (by wearing Doomhammers gear to peace treaty meetings with the Alliance(Doomhammer who was a genocidal racist demon worshiping maniac, oh and he never drank any demon blood to get that way)). This is bad because Blizzard has expected us to sympathize with Thrall in the past, and I will bet real money on this, expects us to sympathize with him as a protagonist in the future. Its kind of insincere that he wants to take a few years off to enjoy his new wife and newborn orclings while the Horde he left in Garrosh's hands butchers Alliance civilians whenever they are able. Including the women and children. 3) The Orcs are still making references to how they are angry about slavery. So the primary motivation for the orcs to hate the humans is that they were once slaves. This doesn't make sense because they were enslaved by the Kingdom of Lorderan not Stormwind. Sure you could say the orcs are racist and dumb, and that few (very few) Lorderani survivors escaped to Stormwind. Then you stop and think about it, and hey, wait. Arn't the people of Lorderan still around as the Forsaken, aren't they in the Horde now? Sylvanas even claims they are the true people of Lorderan repeatedly. (Though shes from Quel'Thelas). The fact that the Forsaken are/were the slavers of the Orcs is never mentioned or referenced at any point by any character in the fiction. Even though its glaringly obvious. I guess if they brought this up they would have to change tune to that the Orcs are mad at the Humans, BECAUSE the Humans are mad at them first... (For allying with Satan, comitting genocide against their species and burning down their city in an orgy of murder and rape <- confirmed) 4) So now the belf leader, who is apparently actually doing something for a change, and doing it awesomely (surprisingly) starts piping up. Uh-oh. Instantly his character stumbles and falls into the quagmire that has become WoW fiction. A) He says the belfs left the Alliance because the alliance are bigots. So following the belf logic, in the aftermath of the most devastating conflict in Lorderans history, the sole surviving general Garithos gathers together the remaining living forces and proves to bea huge racist. Despite a history of amicable relations, despite the fact the belfs would have had to have known the command structure of Lorderan and that this was a terrible convenience, despite the many many examples of blood elves and humans getting it on, the insane power hungry prince of the belfs declares their withdrawl from the Alliance, and the Belfs still uphold it. Now years later the belfs are calling the humans, no, the entire Alliance bigots (which they arguably are, just not against elves(which IS why the belfs are upset)) based upon the actions of a single individual who the Alliance has since denounced, and somehow we humans are the racists. Throw in the completely unprovoked and horrific attacks against the Draenei whose leader later re-ignites the Sunwell. Sure your thinking this whole bigotry comment through Lort-belf leader? The belfs should be quietly feeling guilty in a corner for THEMSELVES begin racist, following a madman on an insane quest for power from Satan, then causing untold suffering to an innocent populous. Not spouting broken logic, belfs are supposed to be smart. Well at least the belfs didn't waste time in adopting Horde logic. In the Belf leader short story its implied he sincerely hates Kael'Thas and his decision, and that he is in the Horde mostly because Sylvanas is hanging a sword over the belfs. What else can they do? They are surrounded by forsaken, they can't even reach the Alliance. But no, instead Blizzard pulls up Garithos. Y'know while the belfs were busy hating the Alliance based on the Alliance's worst character its a pity they couldn't think of any negative individual examples to define the Horde races. Guess this is what the call a gap in logic, huh? B) "She's gone to far!" Announces the belf leader (calm down he's about to be worthy of a name). Um no. I guess word never got around to the belfs about Southshore, or Ashenvale, or the Druid School in Stonetalon, or Theramore. So the horde are fully embarked on a genocidal campaign to massacre every Alliance settlement and are attacking them across Azeroth. (Well you hear mention constantly about how the Orcs Grunts look forward to invading Stormwind so I assume). The Horde even employs bio-weapons, weapons of mass destruction and mind control. "Jaina is attacking a Horde affiliated faction!" "Shes gone to far!" I had already face palmed by the time some belf ranger declared that Lor'themar would make an excellent Warchief. Ya I guess he would, he is apparently privy to all the faction leader memos (which are just outlines of Chris Metzen's genitals I assume). He also clearly has the logical capacity of an orc. I hope he just doesn't mention the whole slavery conundrum. Orcs might also realize that the Blood Elves effectively signed off on all that. 5) The Forsaken. The Forsaken are so felling cool. Damn I love Sylvanas' character. She's evil and conniving and she loves it. No apologists make excuses for her so I don't get frustrated on her topic, and she has always been written acting logically, consistently, and with a strong presence. Just looking at her can fully inform anyone on Blizzards huge lore staff exactly what she is and meant to do in the story. So the Forsaken are basically pure evil at this point. Not chaotic, not lawful, just good old fashioned pure evil. There's no real hiding it. BUT they also present a problem in the story. So Baine and Vol'Jin just sit around listening to what the Forsaken are doing, and then somehow manage to conjure outrage when the Alliance strikes back against them. -More on this later. Are the Pandas really going to look at the Forsaken, at their history and recent actions and NOT sign up with the Alliance? I guess the Wandering Isle Pandas did, they got that brochure before they signed up with the Horde which read: "Ten things you should know about the Horde: How the Slavery beef is fake and details on the sexy She-Satan who reanimates corpses." At least a big Forsaken plot-hole is fixed by the crack Blizzard lore team: Q: Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom: Sylvanas or the Val’kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King? A: Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave. So the Forsaken may be malicious but they respect free-will. Oh okay that makes sense. Until you think about it. Wait so how is this respecting free will at all? They resurrect you as a monster (with your permission?) and then when knowing your in an emotionally volatile state turn you against friends and family (confirmed in Wolfheart) to murder them, so they can take your land. Then when that's done and you calm down they offer you the choice of being killed again, or joining their war machine. How is that respectful of free will? How is that basically not the exact same thing as mind control: Their putting some serious dark magic in your body, then manipulating you while your conscious is suppressed than offering a rhinos bargain. Come to think of it if their so respectful of free will did they ask the Gilneans if they WANTED to have a massive war waged against them with WMDs. Did they ask the people of Southshore for permission to melt them all into sludge? What do they do with the feral undead, do they assume the people they resurrected in that scenario would just agree to whatever? What about the Abominations? Are the stitched together by donor parts? Jesus, I'm begging to think Blizzards concept of "free will" is as fucked as their interpretation of "redemption." God knows what they think "freedom" or "democracy" means. I'm a little freaked out now. So Blizzard has to stick to the lines of: "No, No the Horde aren't evil. The Forsaken aren't evil. They have this free will value." While also dodging plot holes, and avoiding attention to the fact that the Horde basically has no gas left in the "justification" tank. Which brings me to Vol'Jin, Baine and basically every Alliance hero (especially in Cataclysm) characters of WoW. Do they know what's going on across the world? The answer I get from everyone is: "No obviously not." If that's the case how does that work in the story? A human could just pass along these tales of woe to a Tauren. How are the leaders so uninformed, it takes a week to cross the sea to reach Kalimdor in Tides of War. Wait it takes a week to reach Kalimdor? How the fuck didn't the Alliance discover it in the centuries of naval domination they had? Its been established that the leaders can simply call upon mages to port them anywhere they need to go. It all really comes down to this: If the main characters in a story have no idea whats going on or what's at stake, what their own motivations are or where to go and who to talk to, then there is no story. Or maybe there is. Just a sloppy shitty one. You could argue that my frustrations are invalid because everyone is confused and operating partially in the dark, just like a real war, but you will never sell me on the idea that in such a cartoony exaggerated world the one real gritty aspect is information. Its more likely that the story is stitched together by many, many, many different people, some of whom have real talent (Christie Golden) some who don't. Some who care, and others who are focusing on their work in Starcraft or another IP. At the end of the day Panda's is shaping out to be just as confusing and grotesquely misshapen as those expansions before it, despite all the money and time being devoted to tell a story. A story of stinks of real world motivation, mingling poorly beside attempts at artistry. A story that doesn't make sense. I'll do Alliance next. Honestly I'm just getting started. Plinkett homage intentional
  10. !Get pumped. What a great reason to dive back in, with a whole host of killer mods. Related topic: What mods do you recommend for your bros. Mine? -Trade Dragon Souls become level up points -Midas magic (of course) -Backpacks. -Jango the snow tiger companion -Sounds of Skyrim -Horse Armor -More Killmoves -Moonpath to Elsweyr -Sounds of Skyrim -TEXTURES MISC upgrades LOL
  11. Interesting argument. I hate to be a neigh sayer but I doubt Blizzard is making Theron a political mastermind or will come up with any of the awesome ending ideas of Slag. While we all can admit we are filling in a blank here lets be honest. Blizz doesn't really know how to write a good story, the number of plot holes, missing characters, and loose ends are more numerous than the stars. I guess that's what happens when you employ 50 writers.
  12. While the simplification isn't useful, I agree whole heartedly the title should be changed. We could discuss the SHA and Pandas in another thread. Also, does anyone believe the: "Blizz is killing Garrosh cuz people hate him." holds any weight? My thoughts?: Probably not. Blizz did say Garrosh was never planned to be warchief for long, but could it be the majority of players reaction to him?
  13. This is cute because Raziel is cute.
  14. I always open with dumb posts Slagworth. Sadly I can;t respond to most of what you typed because it was crazy responses to an initially crazy post. My initial posts generally are flamboyant and provoking, my follow ups usually sarcastic. I know you can't hear my tone, but at least read my signature and chillax dude. ANYWAYS. I get this is IC, but I wanted to point out a few things. Firstly, Garithos was Lorderani, again a faction you DID ally yourselves with. Secondly go read the BELF leader story. I'll wait, you done? Ya despite Belf IC pride the reason they are still in their herd is because they were threatened and conned by Sylvanas. Inertia is also likely a factor. Go read some Know your Lore. By the way your welcome for re-igniting your Sunwell thus saving your species, maybe you could stop killing Draenei now? The ones who helped you even after everything you unjustly did to them, that would be great thanks... Ya we kidnapped Thrall for like, a day. When you rescue Thrall he even mentions how he will never be a slave again. Wait hang on a minute, your still mad about being enslaved? Thats funny right, cause the people who did all that are in your army now. (Lorderani=Forsaken) The fact that you Orcs still haven't figured this out is still the most hilarious and bewildering thing in Warcraft. Its like your whole righteous anger shtick is just some huge joke, and this has been going on so long that I think even the writers of warcraft are not aware of it. You are driven and Thrall is driven by his opposition against slavery, except the Goblins have those Ogre dudes, and Sylvanas is mind slaving people left and right, and we Stormwinders/Gilneans/Dwarves/Gnomes/Draenei/Kaledorei have had nothing to do with enslaving Orcs. File a complaint with the Forsaken, I'm sure they will get around to it. This is cute but it brings me quite handily to my next point. First off if you had done even the tiniest bit of research you would know this is largely due to Onyxia's influence. Wait why was Stormwind needing to be rebuilt again anyways? Oh right because in WC1 the Orcs had allied themselves with Satan and brutally murdered and raped everyone in Stormwind while razing the city. That is all canon by the way... Hey wouldn't as part of their redemption the Orcs could have rebuilt Stormwind? Whatever, my point is that while the Stormwinders and Kaledorei have rather unreasonable reasons to hate Orcs NOW, its mostly due to the fact that Orcs introduce themselves by partnering with demons and murdering everyone in sight. What I am trying to say is the Alliance has some damn good reason to kick Horde butt, and NOW the Horde should be the ones throwing up their hands and acting to survive. Instead the direction taken was just one of the Horde reverting back to the way it was before, which in future really justifies the Alliances argument even further. Now even though the Horde has become the NEW Horde they still tried to take over the world and resorted to horrific means in their unjustified conquest. They even took on an imperialistic mindset. My overall point is this: "How much blame can you heap on Garrosh alone? What about the people who all followed his orders, whether it was in Icecrown, or Tol Barad, how much blame could you REALLY shift onto him before/as he dies." Nazi comparisons are silly but Germany did not walk away from that conflict as some Lily White. "OOPS Hitler is dead, guess its all even now right? It was all his fault." Germany had to acknowledge and deal with the fact their culture had some real fucked up elements in it, and deal with those elements. That is a totally different topic, but an apt comparison-theory for a post Pandas Azeroth. Post Pandas; "Welcome to the NEW NEW Horde, we are totally different peaceful dudes this time. Honest."