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About Rai

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  • Birthday 01/17/1984

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  1. I'll elaborate for you more since you have not read RoH, since it is that book that supports all that I am saying. Just keep in mind that the coming of the burning legion to draenor /= to the orcs drinking the demon blood, the orcs were following demons before Mannoroth was even ordered to the planet. -Kil'jaeden reaches out to Ner'zhul and pretends to be his dead wife, tells him the draenei are evil and must be killed -First attacks of the orcs on draenei -The clans coordinate with one another, joining in attacks and sending reports frequently -Telmor is attacked (I might be wrong on where this fits in the timeline from the book, but it was near the beginning of these events for sure, it is the first attack on a draenei city and is lead by Durotan himself) -Kil'jaeden reveals his true form to Ner'zhul and Gul'dan, clams friendship with the ancestors and gives orders for the horde -The elements and ancestors will no longer answer to the shaman -Ner'zhul travels to the Oshu'gun and learns the truth, that he has been fooled -Gul'dan is given control of the horde by Kil'jaeden, Ner'zhul is kept as his pet -Gul'dan learns warlock magics from Kil'jaeden, Gul'dan trains apprentices of his own from the shadowmoon clan's shaman -orcs learn warlock magics from these first students of the practice -orcs prematurely age their children to fight the draenei -orcs attack the Temple of Karabor -draenei are wiped out EVERYWHERE except Shattrath and the Auchindoun (which isn't actually attacked in the story, presumably it is destroyed last by the shadow council alone as there were not a large group of defenders present here beyond the Auchenai priesthood and refugees from other attacks) -ORCS DRINK THE DEMON BLOOD (this actually happens on the night before they attack Shattrath, and Shattrath is the LAST draenei stronghold at this time unless you count Auchindoun) -Orcs destroy Shattrath -Unbroken (also a good read about life on draenor post RoH) -Orcs fight eachother until the portal is opened Reading RoH is very important for understanding any aspects of the horde's history and orcish life pre-horde. And yes all the books are considered by blizzard to be Cannon, even if things are retconned through them. All of the above information is the events that are laid out from that book with touches from the story "Beyond the Dark Portal." It is a good read.
  2. The orcs were at war with the draenei WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY before the demon blood was even an issue. You are really really mixed up here:-First attacks of the orcs on draenei -orcs learn warlock magics -orcs prematurely age their children to fight the draenei -orcs attack the Temple of Karabor -draenei are wiped out EVERYWHERE except Shattrath and the Auchindoun -ORCS DRINK THE DEMON BLOOD -Orcs destroy Shattrath -Orcs fight eachother until the portal is opened A whole hell of a lot happened before the demon blood sir, the frostwolf clan participated in it all, from the taking of Telmor to the taking of the Black Temple. They took Shattrath and even after the portal was first opened, they participated in the starting attacks against the humans. It was only after all this, after making it to AZEROTH, that they were exiled for not drinking, but they attacked a plenty. Durotan did everything he was ordered to do, even if he didn't do some things he was asked to do. Read Rise of the Horde, plz That is what I am saying, was built, past tense. Ergo ALREADY THERE.This is a pointless discussion anyway unless you want to somehow prove that the orcs didn't build their city from the only source of lumber they had. Come back when your own source stops disagreeing with you.
  3. from those links tho, we have conflicting information... The wikilink for Orgrimmar supports what you said, but the Founding of Durotar chain doesn't. The city is there from the start, pre-Rexxar and you are defending it. If the wiki info is not accurate, then I'm sorry I don't remember the game better. I'm just reading what it says.
  4. Well you are correct on the Mag'har clan, but the Frostwolfs only were exhiled after coming to Azeroth. I don't think they attacked HUMANS all that much, but draenei? Ooooh they did. I might not have explained enough. It was almost 70 years ago that the orcs joined and unified, abandoning their old ways. I said that a lot of draenei will know more about the orc's past as it was pre-horde then the average orc would and it is true. Simply because draenei live a long ass time and few orcs were alive so long ago. Most of the orcs today were born into the horde on Draenor, or to the horde on Azeroth and have to learn about such things from figures like Drek'Thar. They pass history via storytelling and, while such things can be fun, it is horribly inefficient in keeping accurate and detailed history. I also find it funny that the draenei know more about the orcish religion and the start of ancestor worship then any orc does. Just fun little facts.
  5. All I'm going to be able to do for you is quote the quests via wowwiki if you insist on this. I don't have the game installed anymore but this just makes such a task redundant and too time consuming.Spirits of Ashenvale To Tame a Land In the WarIII campaign you build a settlement on the boarder of Ashenvale and on the TFT campaign, you start with Orgrimmar already built from previous events. Have I missed something? From the reading and game as I recall it, it is all either to vauge to tell, or I am correct. I never said he wasn't liked, hell he is downright loved. One of the reasons he is loved is he very active sense of forgiveness. Don't you ever look up to someone for a trait you wish you had more of? They are happy to have someone so wise, strong and level-headed leading them and Velen is commonly described as the best among them. This doesn't mean he is a clone. Yeah, I don't know what they hell they were doing up there in the first place, but when you find them they are gathering lumber. I think they were exploring and broke their boat, but I don't feel like checking. I've responded to this enough.
  6. It isn't like there aren't, the events we are talking about happened between roughly 65 and 27 years ago. This is why I said many orcs are ignorant of their history pre-horde, but you have to do some serious loophole jumping to play an orc older then 30 who didn't kill draenei! Of course, but if we don't assume racial history and its strong influence into the general populous, there is no racial impact on characters! Furthermore, this shows just how great a ruler Velen is that he isn't average on his thinking. We also have this trend with Thrall vs the average orc. The draenei aren't aggressive creatures who charge at random orcs, but they are an emotional race who lost their one refuge to those guys. Let's not pretend all races are as shallow as blizzard made the blood elves when it comes to alliances. I wasn't even regarding the events of the Eastern Kingdoms because anyone there at the time when the orcs joined with humans and night elves in Kalimdor had nothing to do with what you are talking about. It would be kind of like asking "why did the gnomes hate orcs so much that they weren't willing to help in Kalimdor," it isn't a question because the gnomes weren't in Kalimdor (and that gnome prophets knew about the coming of the horde game 'gnome ball'). Well I view Varian a bit differently then you do. He is not unwilling to have peace with the orcs, as we can prove from the comic series. He actually tired a few times, but other things just kept getting in the way. It is also kind of funny to hear about how close minded he is when his willingness to accept peace is what got him dethroned in the first place (and once he was reinstated he still wanted to meet Thrall). 2 points for irony When we have inner monologue or narrative perspective as is the case with most lore, sure it is reliable. Will I see one political leader's words to another as reason to assume such statements are truthful? In a written decree no less? Noooooooo It is hardly reliable testimony is what I'm saying. The reasoning has been given in past posts and in this one. And I never said she didn't care or have such feelings, I said that she is not the type of leader to let such things determine her political decisions. If it were, the forsaken would not be HORDE. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I often fall into the tone of voice I hear (or read) of those I talk to, but if having such a sentiment returned to you is unacceptable, I'm not a person to talk to like that I guess. I appreciate the honesty on that point. Keep in mind that it doesn't bother me, I have no ill will towards you and never saw this as more then a engaging conversation. Sarcasm is welcome and to me it is typically icing in debates, so no need to apologize. I'll be softer if you think a mod will frown at our discourse thus far and if you are done, thanks for chatting. My apologizes for sarcasm.
  7. But I believe the draenei being against a war with the orcs was being proposed as a catalyst for them leaving the alliance. I don't see really any of the races in general having a problem with war on the orcs, but maybe I'm stuck in the past. What happened in BC that showed it was dying down? Just the working together of the two factions as a whole? It is just common sense based on city populations and lore discussed travel time between various locations. The in game Stormwind cannot hold the number of people Stormwind is supposed to have, the in game route from the hinterlands to silvermoon doesn't take weeks or months on foot, etc. We know the in game versions of things are shrunk down, and that is ok. It is most feasible in a game like this. The thing is to remember these facts when in game and roleplaying. It isn't like night elves can go swimming and visit the draenei on an island that should be a lot farther away. Actually I did forget about her, the priest who is a little out of it... my apologies, still those areas are right next to each other and we don't really have it in game but I'll concede it since it was proximity to the night elves that allowed for the diplomatic contact they did have that got them into the alliance. To be honest I don't have anything that supports that specifically so I'll let it drop. There is the common mantra of support for the forsaken random Taurens like Mani Winterhoof who have this belief they can be cured, but I suppose I would have to be fair in allowing that Cairne doesn't actually belief this and allows his people to research a cure out of political posturing. And I'm all for a battle for Thunder Bluff, should be way better then the one for the Undercity!
  8. :rolleyes: Well actually, you do see them rushing off to attack the Horde. You see this in all the races of the alliance and vise-versa. It is the whole reason the game has battlegrounds. Also keep in mind that to the draenei, there isn't much to distinguish the old horde from the new. They were around and lived through the brutality of the old-old horde and the mid-old horde. The new-old horde was something they didn't have to live through as they were not on Azeroth at the time, but when they arrived they learn about a new horde that looks a lot like the old-old horde and don't know of a new-old horde to enable a distinguishing of the new horde from. Got it? If not I'll paint you a little picture of the any changes of orcish society below to use as a cheat sheet:Pre-horde : Peaceful orcs who liked to hunt and be nice and brown. Old-old horde : The horde is just forming, warriors and shaman with a savage lust for bloodshed kill draenei and like it. Children are trained for war instead of the hunt. Unity of the clans is preached. Mid-old horde : Much later the warriors fight along-side warlocks now and shamanism is banned. Demon magic has artificially aged most of the orcish children and now war is the central focus of life (this is the horde that would later consume the demon blood). Orc clans join and live as one. New-old horde : Fighting and later stranded on Azeroth, this horde utilizes the fel and undead magics taught to them by demons and Gul'dan, but only because they make good weapons. They fight against their bloodlust (both natural and demonic) when needed, but lost none of their love destruction. Very few have remorse for their past. Draenei never met this horde. :mad: New Horde : Warriors and shaman are once again the respected callings, but the utilization of fel magics is not forbidden. The love for violence and bloodshed is as strong as it has always been. There is still a warchief and unity of the clans. Many orcs still remember the various old hordes but, like the new-old horde before them, do not really despise themselves for their past. One oddity of a leader who was raised by humans has some new ideas for what direction the orcs would take as a people, but it is just an ideal for the future. The new horde is a mix of the old-old and the mid-old hordes. It is not a pre-horde kind of group though. As a draenei, any of the hordes have meant trouble. The draenei are also the only other race in game now that know the horde's full past enough to see that the new horde... is still kinna like the kind that was very very bad. In many ways (because of their lifespans) the draenei know the horde better then the orcs themselves and few orcs remember life before the old horde(s). Many tauren believe that this undeath can be cured and Cairne is one of them, doctor it up how you like. THe war of the ancients and the third war instilled in them a cultural fear of arcane and fel magics and the night elves know that seclusion will not save them from the burning legion if they are continued to be called forth in such a manor. The night elves really believe that the use of these magics puts them in danger and have taken an active role in preaching this to others. Of course you don't see Varian side with Thrall or the orcs, he wasn't around! What kind of whacked-out, irrelevant statement is that! IF he had been around he probably would feel differently about the orcs, but who knows. It doesn't matter to the topic though. My points still stand, the night elves have lost as much to the orcs as any human in a physical sense and even more in a spiritual sense. Swerto did a better job of explaining the politics then I did, so I'll just point that out as my response. You are really trusting of politicians. It is kind of ... cute :rolleyes: Very few. And the point still stands even if it were 50/50! You want to presume that the forsaken are some compassionate, nostalgic people but this seems to only apply to the high elves of the forsaken and not the humans. Very odd.
  9. They are very evangelical about the dangers of arcane magic and know that seclusion won't save them from such dangers. This is basic history for them. Yes, but have you played WarIII? The woodland protectors were killed to build this orc capital. Night elven settlements and cities were wiped out in order to build an Orcish one. The whole war in Ashenvale was over the building of Orgrimmar and its need for lumber. This is also start of what led to the death of Cenarius. I mean you write a denial of what I posted and then supported it. The only real political scape goat the orcs have on this issue is that Thrall was ignorant of Grom's methods for lumber acquisition and Grom's lust for the dark moonwell, but there is still a large basis for night elf/orc waring. I back tracked a bit as it is debatable who found the draenei first, all I said is you as a draenei discover humanity first, before the night elves. Secondly, they are not right next to each other in any real sense, but the game map pushes everything together and shortens distances. The draenei are quite secluded in their new home and minus the few wondering humans and elves, don't have to deal with any other governments if they don't choose to. You act like the draenei government is based on an election system or anyone would over throw him if they didn't agree with him. The draenei respect Velen in his wisdom and he is the one the Naaru and the light want to lead. This doesn't mean that it is going to be common that draenei are going to forgive the people that destroyed 4/5ths of their race and enter some kind of alliance with them easily, if ever. Draenei distrust and many hate the orcs for their past, not to mention joining the horde would have meant joining the blood elves. Yes, I've said as much too. Still, if forsaken are going to make choices based on an emotion, we aren't going to pick compassion or nostalgia as being on the top of that list. Main yes, far from only though. As I've said, the tauren largely see the plague as something they should work to cure and despite the reservations Cairne may have, he sees this as a worthy pursuit.
  10. That's fine, I was just posting a similar example to the one you gave for the night elves throwing off the alliance. The point was, they aren't going to distance themselves from the whole race for the actions of a few who do not represent the government. Really?! They are kind of a nosy people, quick to tell others how to live. The night elves have a distrust and hatred of the orcs much greater then that of Varian. Even with the battle at Hyjal, the night elves do not forget the incursions on their forest, the butchering of their wooden protectors, the loss of their demigod. Orgrimmar is built on the suffering of the night elves for crying out loud! Even though Tyrande is one of the few night elves who has ever befriended an orc, you are dreaming if you think she differs from Varian when it comes to how they see the orcs. Well Azuremyst is actually pretty out of the way for any race in Kalimdor and I don't remember why the humans were up there (just logging I guess though the crash was visible to all on that side of the world), but they are the first race you encounter as a draenei. I guess it cold be either way and it isn't a really important point. Well Velen would be one of the few draenei against continued war with the orcs, but that doesn't support a split in the first place. She wouldn't... NOW. Also keep in mind that her "former people" exist in both factions and are near extinct. I doubt it with the alliance still around. Actually, the forsaken are more concerned with destroying the scourge no matter what, no matter where. That is their first priority, their freakin mission statement. Now what has a strong presence in the Ghostlands? Learn this: even for the few forsaken that allow themselves to feel such feelings you suppose here, VENGENCE comes first. They are still the weakest member of the horde if we aren't counting the trolls (who are one in the same with the Orcs for martial strength). This isn't really a criteria for joining the horde I think, but putting it into perspective. Not just her, it's present LEADER wanted them in, and still does. They have hope for the forsaken and think the plague can be cured. How many moments of weakness do we see like that from her? Also, let's really think about her sisters and what THEY would want for their people. They do not support the horde, they do not support the modern blood elven government, they are still alliance loyalists. Sylvanas shows her sorrow for her sisters and her own personal losses, but doesn't let it influence her politics. Scourge and the ghostlands, the one thing the forsaken want more then anything else is the end of the scourge. Also a new ally and one most loyal to them isn't a bad thing, but don't mistake it for compassion.Most of the forsaken are ex-human, not ex-elf. Ponder the emotional ties they have with humanity.
  11. that's ok, I'll be your source Now you're getting it. When he traveled, it was because father bronze SENT him back, not because he has some secret time travel abilities as you originally supposed. Dude is just a mage. Yup! The demon soul was destroyed or broke apart (until the next time it was resurrected that is) and the spell Rhonin used was one that allowed the powers stored to go to their rightful owners rather then just drifting away lost. I just wanted to point out that it wasn't some GRAND feat to break the spell of the demon soul since he had deathwing's scale, without that it would have been amazing or impossible to do what he did. With it, it isn't such a big thing to cast "return." That's fine, I just wanted to make sure SOMEONE said here that Rhonin isn't the powerhouse people make him out to be. He is hardly some god. He is strong by mage standards, but most of the amazing things he has ever done are situational and with the help of others (typically more powerful then he). If I have to pick one word to describe Rhonin, I'd have to go with lucky before I would go with powerful. Also, I think I'm kind of known now as the one person willing to defend Knaak around here, and one of the oddities that doesn't detest Rhonin.
  12. Well unless something huge happened to him in wotlk that I don't know about, he cannot do anything you think he can. He doesn't have any dragonflight abilities, cannot timetravel and he has no abilities that allow him to energizer bunny his way on and on when most mages would fall over with ZZZzzzzzzz.He was "that guy" who broke the demon soul and restored the dragonflights, but it didn't empower him in anyway. Dude is just a mage... a mage with a high elf wife, but still just a mage.
  13. Well my comment was based on the fact that Rhonin can't do any of the things I quoted unless I missed a book somewhere (which I haven't) or there is something in the game that says he can and I just missed it (which is likely, I'm low on playtime atm). Where is he using these time travel abilities? What are these dragonflight abilities he can cast? When is he using these temporal regeneration abilities? I don't want to be a smartass if I'm ignorant and any reference you have will make me happy.
  14. Yeah, but that isn't a big reason for the elves to leave the humans when it comes to alliances. You are proposing they will stay with a race who became the masters of the burning legion after all so something tells me this might not be the criteria they will use to throw away humanity as friends. Yeah but everyone in the alliance did. Draenei are just good like that. Also I think the humans found them first... They have a lot in common with night elves in reverence for life. They also have curiosity like gnomes and a sense of compassion like the humans. I just don't see a reason for them to take loyalties in a split like this though, I don't even see there being a split like this. She had no reason to (at the time). Well one of them in the sense that she was a high elf, like her sisters (who are now exiles of silvermoon). Yes you point that out, but I think it shows more that she took an alliance she could get for the survival of her people rather then due to loyalties to living entities. I don't remember much that showed that she fought "tooth and nail" for the blood elves, but then again I don't remember much that explained her motives for wanting them in at all really so maybe it is just my memory... I DO know that the tauren fought harder for the forsaken to be brought in as part of the horde then the forsaken had to when it came to convincing the other groups to allow the blood elves entry. A bit of perspective on that. They have emotions, be we have seen time and time again that loyalty to past/living relations isn't high on their list, or at least they aren't going to let it influence their decisions when it comes to survival.