Folvelor

Death Knights and the Light

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So, Folvelor is a DK who was a paladin before he was killed. (Not the most original thing, I know) I've always played him as not being particularly happy about being a death knight, but dealing with the reality of the situation and putting the dark powers he has to use for the greatest possible good. After the Lich King was taken down, he's been searching for a way to end what he thinks of as the "DK Plague" upon Azeroth, but with several years of no luck, he's mostly given up on that goal and returned to active service, still trying to put the strength he has to good use. I am toying with the idea of him trying to... reconnect... with the Light. Not so much as to become what he once was, (OOC'ly I don't want to make him a paladin again) but he misses this thing was central to his being for 55 years before he was killed and raised.

So I'm wondering what the feasability of this is lore-wise. Are there any precedents for or against it happening? If not, any thoughts on whether the Light would accept him?

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Well...the thing is that in WoW, the Light is very fluid in terms of what it supports, empowers, ect. Blizzard, in one of their "Ask CDev" posts, notes this:

Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne).

So, I guess, the question is, in what context do you mean "Reconnect with the Light?" I know OOC you said you don't want him to become a Paladin again, but did you mean, for example, him being able to use Holy spells, ect? I suppose if your character was like trying to redeem himself, ect, and believe in the Light again, the lore states that his willpower and faith could possibly return. Although there's no real example of someone swinging so wildly back and forth between Paladin ---> Dk ---> Paladin again.

The only example I can think of that might be special is Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas. Although he was undead, he was still technically a Paladin. I know the game classifies him as both a Paladin and Death Knight, but he demonstrates no Death Knight abilities, so I think people just call him one because he's undead.

The RPG stated that Paladins would involuntarily strip themselves of the ability to wield the Light if they committed evil acts, but the RPGs are non-canon, and with the CDev answer, it seems doubly sure that the lore is now "If you have the will, and believe in what you are doing" you can command the Light, within reason.

So, essentially, to answer your question:

Yes, the Light would if he believed in it again and began worshiping it.

However, there's no real example in the lore of a person who has swung from a Paladin to a DK and back again. Zeliek is a special case, and its specifically stated he is (And how odd it is that he's Undead and still uses the Light), so I wouldn't really try something like his character. It might seem a bit meta-gamey if you were a DK who was also using the Light.

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This may or may not be true but I read on WoWwiki that undead suffer intense pain channeling the Light even if it's healing magic. They were talking about Forsaken priests but I don't see why it wouldn't be similar for death knights. Might factor that in.

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No, you're right.

I believe they also did say later on that the 2nd gen (playable) Death Knights would react in a similar way.

In addition to the agonizing pain that is felt, use or infusion of the Light also begins to bring back their dulled senses. Which is unfortunate because, more often than not, you're a rotting body kept alive by magic.

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This is why they also said, I think in the post when they first said undead feel intense pain when channeling the light, that Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself. He was powerful enough to retain his power of the light but since he was undead the Lich King basically was controlling him forcing him to use his powers (given that Sir Zeliek frequently tells the players to run but can not stop himself). Give the fact he is strong enough to be a conduit of the light and be undead he probably experienced intense agony.

I believe paladins are atleast said to be conduits for the light more so then priests (think this was the reason Blizz stated why there was not Forsaken Paladins they'd probably burn form the inside out) so probably be wise not to have Folvelor be able to control the light as strong as he did as a paladin. But heck if he enjoys the pain of controlling it if anything he could be like a mediocre priest that could control it and experience it like he wants to but just got to take into consideration it hurts him and brings about the feels.

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As a Death Knight, I've always just thought of it as "No. Don't go there. No." But, lore seems to say it's possible...

It's fun, being a Death Knight post Wrath. There's...I think zero lore for us (Koltira and Thaurissan, maybe), and nothing about how we would adapt to the changing world. Maybe we're supposed to all fall down to dust and stuff.

I'm still wondering how you plan to use the light. I mean healing people seems a bit out there, and using it to damage people seems like it would just make the DK more in tune with the 'dark side' of his powers.

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The Forsaken/Light thing was out of the tabletop RPG that was created - but seeing as they said it was non-canon then you are put back into the position of "whatever the hell you want."

There is a lot of precedence to go either way (able or unable) with the Light touching those without souls or raised through "unnatural" means. While it doesn't help give you a good foundation... so long as you aren't flinging Light Bolts and calling upon the Spirit Bomb to gauge your power level to 50,000,000 ... I think you should be fine with either embracing the Light or using it as a plot mechanic on one unhappy puppy.

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The Forsaken/Light thing was out of the tabletop RPG that was created - but seeing as they said it was non-canon then you are put back into the position of "whatever the hell you want."

It was in the "Ask a Creative Developer," which means it is the current canon.

Oh, and to clarify: Just because there's leeway with one character, I don't really think its a good idea for a Death Knight to suddenly be using the Light. Like Altherion said, I had always thought it was a "Don't try it" area.

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The same development talk where the RPG books were told not to be canon, so I wouldn't take it as gospel; especially since it did not come from the Head Poobah Mecha-Metzen.

Of course, Death Knights are different than Forsaken (unless it is a Forsaken Death Knight!). You have a lot of leeway and I think, as said above, so long as you aren't doing anything crazy it could prove to be an interesting read and adventure.

Though, when in doubt, throw in a naaru .... then you can do ANYTHING!

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The same development talk where the RPG books were told not to be canon, so I wouldn't take it as gospel; especially since it did not come from the Head Poobah Mecha-Metzen.

...wut. This makes no sense. They specify the very point in the "Ask a CDev."My Its pretty cut and dry that its the current canon. Not to mention they say that they consult with the lore team in all of their answer.

The fact that it may or may not have been in the RPG books (which I cant seem to verify wherever I look) is irrelevant, they do say that certain things in there will have to be canon for the lore to make sense overall. This plus them specifically saying the Light hurts the undead makes it pretty obvious what the current canon is.

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Thanks guys, this is good stuff and really helps.

As a Death Knight, I've always just thought of it as "No. Don't go there. No." But, lore seems to say it's possible...

It's fun, being a Death Knight post Wrath. There's...I think zero lore for us (Koltira and Thaurissan, maybe), and nothing about how we would adapt to the changing world. Maybe we're supposed to all fall down to dust and stuff.

I'm still wondering how you plan to use the light. I mean healing people seems a bit out there, and using it to damage people seems like it would just make the DK more in tune with the 'dark side' of his powers.

To clarify what you and several others have asked, no I don't plan on him being a paladin again. He just wants to feel... connected... to the Light again moreso than actually wield it as a force. He might get a few small abilities from it, kind of like how Sylennis can occasionally do little arcane cantrips since she has highborne blood.

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It's not really super related, but Aleister Xalascent, my DK, is still a follower of the Light post freedom from the Lich King. It certainly provides not the slightest bit of power or anything, but he reviles what he is and turns to the Light for penance and redemption. I can't say that he feels connected to it more than he can feel connected to anything, as I imagine that undeath comes with a certain...hollowness, but as a faith it's still something he clings to.

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...wut. This makes no sense.

I agree - a lot of things in life do not make sense. Yet we have to keep on (un)living!

Because of the vast disparity of what the Light is, the developer statement on Forsaken is not a fact (canon) so much as another thing to add to the pile.

Ex. Leonid Barthalomew the Revered. While his existence does not refute or support the CD (Creative Development - just going to acronym it) statement, it does offer an established character presence in-game to the talkie-talk. He has been present with the Argent Dawn since vanilla - hanging out in Light's Hope Chapel that is a beacon of Light juice across the Plaguelands. While I do not believe there is anything in any of the novels about him, if what was said by CD is true - this guy probably isn't having a fun time. Though, I think this guys story should be interesting to you, Folvelor, as it seems to run similar in scope to what you are shooting for.

While Death Knights are not Forsaken (unless they actually are Forsaken), and were created differently than the Forsaken were, they still are under the umbrella of Scourge. Souless, dead, or something inbetween (depending on what you have read and when you read it); the Light should effect them much in the same way as the Forsaken. Yet it does not - the Death Knight storyline shows the Light can be something beneficial. While the Ashbringer is fun paradox in its own right, the purification of it gave free will to the Knights of the Ebon Blade and allowed them to live without the Lich King. It didn't burn them in righteous fire and they didn't all fall to their knees and cry in anguish. While that could of been more game design than story development - it is as it stands.

There is also the story of Crusader Bridenbrad. He was being corrupted by the Plague and, despite it bringing him immense pain, the Light (and other things associated with it) did give him peace. In the end, the Super Jesus of Light came down and gave him peace and serenity. While the lore and content of this story was made to accommodate an accolade to one of the Blizzard team, it was still worked on and time was invested by the Big Cheeses, so it is part of the game as much as anything similar. While the Crusader was "between" the living and unliving, the idea that the Light immediately gives bad feelings seems to contradict a lot of in-game content.

Of course, we are talking space magic and a religious overtone that is not a religious overtone - so it could all be correct and incorrect all at once! The Light burns the unbelievers but cleanses those WHO SACRIFICE!!!!!!

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My only question to the ability of a Death Knight to use the Light, is wouldn't that be detrimental to their own existence to use it? Like, we know that the Light can severely harm Undead of any kind. Similar to a Holy/Disc Forsaken Priest, wouldn't usage of the Light by Undead hands burn them more than anything?

I guess my question is wouldn't the Light more or less kill (or severely burn) a Death Knight if one were to somehow be able to use it again in Undeath?

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I agree - a lot of things in life do not make sense. Yet we have to keep on (un)living!

Because of the vast disparity of what the Light is, the developer statement on Forsaken is not a fact (canon) so much as another thing to add to the pile.

Ex. Leonid Barthalomew the Revered. While his existence does not refute or support the CD (Creative Development - just going to acronym it) statement, it does offer an established character presence in-game to the talkie-talk. He has been present with the Argent Dawn since vanilla - hanging out in Light's Hope Chapel that is a beacon of Light juice across the Plaguelands. While I do not believe there is anything in any of the novels about him, if what was said by CD is true - this guy probably isn't having a fun time. Though, I think this guys story should be interesting to you, Folvelor, as it seems to run similar in scope to what you are shooting for.

While Death Knights are not Forsaken (unless they actually are Forsaken), and were created differently than the Forsaken were, they still are under the umbrella of Scourge. Souless, dead, or something inbetween (depending on what you have read and when you read it); the Light should effect them much in the same way as the Forsaken. Yet it does not - the Death Knight storyline shows the Light can be something beneficial. While the Ashbringer is fun paradox in its own right, the purification of it gave free will to the Knights of the Ebon Blade and allowed them to live without the Lich King. It didn't burn them in righteous fire and they didn't all fall to their knees and cry in anguish. While that could of been more game design than story development - it is as it stands.

There is also the story of Crusader Bridenbrad. He was being corrupted by the Plague and, despite it bringing him immense pain, the Light (and other things associated with it) did give him peace. In the end, the Super Jesus of Light came down and gave him peace and serenity. While the lore and content of this story was made to accommodate an accolade to one of the Blizzard team, it was still worked on and time was invested by the Big Cheeses, so it is part of the game as much as anything similar. While the Crusader was "between" the living and unliving, the idea that the Light immediately gives bad feelings seems to contradict a lot of in-game content.

Of course, we are talking space magic and a religious overtone that is not a religious overtone - so it could all be correct and incorrect all at once! The Light burns the unbelievers but cleanses those WHO SACRIFICE!!!!!!

1.) Leonid's story is irrelevant to this. He's not a Paladin, nor has anything to do with the Light. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Nobody is arguing that you cannot follow the Light if you are not an Undead. He's an Undead that fights against other Undead. The fact that he continues to serve the Argent Dawn/Crusade after death is why he is "Revered," they even say so in the quests. It really has nothing to do with the Light at all.

2.) Again, Bridenbrad's story is also irrelevant. For one, the guy was not an Undead yet. He was afflicted by the plague. He was not "between," he was dying. It's pretty simple. He becomes progressively worse as the quest goes on, and all you're doing is trying to cure the plague. In the end, you fail, and before he's resurrected, the Naaru do whatever magical thingymajig they do and send him to "heaven." By all accounts and what we can observe, you "act"/respond to the Light normally until you actually die.

Because of the vast disparity of what the Light is, the developer statement on Forsaken is not a fact (canon) so much as another thing to add to the pile.

Uhh...yes, it is canon. The CREATIVE Developers are the lore team. They are the same. They are the group headed by Metzen. He is the head of the Creative Development team. They came out and specified things. It is canon. I am not sure what basis you are arguing on that it can't be. Because you don't want it to? Because they've retconned lore before? So have tons of universes. And the logic is that the latest lore is canon. It seems like you're just arguing about something that has been settled for a while (The part about the Light hurting Undead) for no reason.

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The advance mechanics and structure of story and content is pretty hard to follow; it's cool. It isn't for everyone.

Fortunately, Folvelor has enough to go on to do something interesting with his character.

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My only question to the ability of a Death Knight to use the Light, is wouldn't that be detrimental to their own existence to use it? Like, we know that the Light can severely harm Undead of any kind. Similar to a Holy/Disc Forsaken Priest, wouldn't usage of the Light by Undead hands burn them more than anything?

I guess my question is wouldn't the Light more or less kill (or severely burn) a Death Knight if one were to somehow be able to use it again in Undeath?

This is the actual grey area, and you're really just going off of people's opinions of what the lore would do. Personally it seems to me as if Death Knights would work very similarly (If not identically) to the Forsaken with the Light. Both have been resurrected by Necromantic magics, so why would they not respond in the same way? That's at least my logic. I think it should work as you are thinking.

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