maurdakar

World of Confusions - (Spoliers)

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I had high hopes for this expansion. Starting it out things seemed consistent, and consistency was something WoW lore has severely lacked. While I'm pleased with the focus and attention to continuing a story, the mess surrounding the plot, main characters, and motivations staggering. There are many little problems, but once again the continued issue is primarily with the Horde. This isn't a personal attack, don't take it as such, its more a general complaint directed at blizzard who has crafted a narrative that feels like a sloppy poorly constructed mess which feels it was written by twenty different people, probably because its a sloppy poorly constructed mess, written by twenty different people.

Now when Pandas first began I was happy to see the Horde finally acting in a consistent manner. Story wise the Horde has always been much more grim and nasty than the Alliance, and the people of the Horde reflect that. The Horde's actions have always been borderline evil, BUT, Blizzard has always insisted they are not the bad guys (and avoided any follow up or request for proof of this other than: "Hey look at Thrall"). Right off the bat the orcs are large, in charge and brutal and nasty and mean. They come across as hard-asses who use violence and physical strength to get their way, which is great because consistently through the lore they are portrayed as hard-asses who use violence and physical strength to get their way. Consistency is key here. The Orc commander is rude, dominant and violent, so basically an Orc.

Likewise on the Alliance side you see a gathering of the races driven by ideals. There's a grandeur and royal romance which permeates around them. However, there is a sense that in the wake of Northrend and Cataclysm (Where the Horde essentially invade everything and constantly attack them) they are filled with over-righteous zeal. There's a pageantry, gallantry and optimism surrounding them, but also an uneasy fanatical tone in the way they go about engaging and killing Horde. You can really feel their zealotry justified though, the over-enthusiastic captain of the Alliance flagship was a native of Soutshore, shes there to get sweet sweet revenge, while the Orc commander is just a bastard who wants to take stuff, and is motivated by, well nothing but being an orc I guess.

This is all perfect because the motivations of these early characters make sense, and are consistent with WoW lore.

Going on through the expansion though, the main characters, aka: The faction leaders, take center stage, and already things begin to fall apart.

-Massive 5.1 spoliers.

So my issues are the old ones being reinforced but also some new ones:

1) Way to much blame is being shouldered on Garrosh.

I really struggled not to mention Hitler and the Nazis here, because that comparison is so felling overused in modern debate that its sad. Really any violent dictator will do.

So sure Garrosh is a bad dude, and now even Horde apologists are struggling, struggling to wipe all the egg off their faces and change tune. But way to many of the negative actions of the Horde are somehow tied back to Garrosh.

Garrosh is one guy. He appoints people, well just Orcs, who share his views, into positions of power and command sure, but really his continued leadership reflects the massive cultural problems the Orcs have. To put it simply, their culture is violent and destructive. It wasn't always that violent, and sure plenty of Orcs aspire to the positive aspects of their ancestral heritage, but there are some deep rooted problems with the nature of their beliefs and practices. Instead of enshrining culture (because you know its culture) they need to approach it pragmatically.

Garrosh is being set up for a fall, but it's almost a little too perfect, and with no mention of the fact that Garrosh must have massive support behind him I get the feeling this is gonna be another Blizzard "redemption". Someone kills something or someone else thus redeeming or undoing huge systemic faults and grievances. Ironically Garrosh has kind of taken the place Mannoroth once occupied, once defeated/killed/overthrown the Orcs (or in this case the Horde) will triumphantly declare themselves innocent of any previous wrongdoing and wash their hands of any guilt they feel. I like that this "redemption" Thrall and Hellscream won originally is being brought into serious question (as in, how the hell does killing a demon you willfully teamed up with for entirely selfish reason count as redemption), but I also worry that once again Blizzard is stumbling on this concept of redemption. *Kerrigan *Thrall/Hellscream *So many Diablo examples wtf...

In order to be redeemed you have to apologize, admit fault, actually feel sorry (only you would know for sure) and then do something to make it right. You can't just live through some traumatic event, and declare yourself redeemed. There doesn't have to be forgiveness but you should seek it out.

2)Thrall says: "Ain't my problem." in the Tides of War book, when confronted with the Horde negativity.

This is bad because a) Its almost entirely his fault for not addressing the cultural issues for decades and b) contributing to the idea that Orcs hadn't changed (by wearing Doomhammers gear to peace treaty meetings with the Alliance(Doomhammer who was a genocidal racist demon worshiping maniac, oh and he never drank any demon blood to get that way)).

This is bad because Blizzard has expected us to sympathize with Thrall in the past, and I will bet real money on this, expects us to sympathize with him as a protagonist in the future. Its kind of insincere that he wants to take a few years off to enjoy his new wife and newborn orclings while the Horde he left in Garrosh's hands butchers Alliance civilians whenever they are able. Including the women and children.

3) The Orcs are still making references to how they are angry about slavery.

So the primary motivation for the orcs to hate the humans is that they were once slaves. This doesn't make sense because they were enslaved by the Kingdom of Lorderan not Stormwind. Sure you could say the orcs are racist and dumb, and that few (very few) Lorderani survivors escaped to Stormwind. Then you stop and think about it, and hey, wait. Arn't the people of Lorderan still around as the Forsaken, aren't they in the Horde now? Sylvanas even claims they are the true people of Lorderan repeatedly. (Though shes from Quel'Thelas). The fact that the Forsaken are/were the slavers of the Orcs is never mentioned or referenced at any point by any character in the fiction. Even though its glaringly obvious.

I guess if they brought this up they would have to change tune to that the Orcs are mad at the Humans, BECAUSE the Humans are mad at them first... (For allying with Satan, comitting genocide against their species and burning down their city in an orgy of murder and rape <- confirmed)

4) So now the belf leader, who is apparently actually doing something for a change, and doing it awesomely (surprisingly) starts piping up. Uh-oh. Instantly his character stumbles and falls into the quagmire that has become WoW fiction.

A) He says the belfs left the Alliance because the alliance are bigots. So following the belf logic, in the aftermath of the most devastating conflict in Lorderans history, the sole surviving general Garithos gathers together the remaining living forces and proves to bea huge racist. Despite a history of amicable relations, despite the fact the belfs would have had to have known the command structure of Lorderan and that this was a terrible convenience, despite the many many examples of blood elves and humans getting it on, the insane power hungry prince of the belfs declares their withdrawl from the Alliance, and the Belfs still uphold it. Now years later the belfs are calling the humans, no, the entire Alliance bigots (which they arguably are, just not against elves(which IS why the belfs are upset)) based upon the actions of a single individual who the Alliance has since denounced, and somehow we humans are the racists.

Throw in the completely unprovoked and horrific attacks against the Draenei whose leader later re-ignites the Sunwell. Sure your thinking this whole bigotry comment through Lort-belf leader?

The belfs should be quietly feeling guilty in a corner for THEMSELVES begin racist, following a madman on an insane quest for power from Satan, then causing untold suffering to an innocent populous. Not spouting broken logic, belfs are supposed to be smart.

Well at least the belfs didn't waste time in adopting Horde logic.

In the Belf leader short story its implied he sincerely hates Kael'Thas and his decision, and that he is in the Horde mostly because Sylvanas is hanging a sword over the belfs. What else can they do? They are surrounded by forsaken, they can't even reach the Alliance.

But no, instead Blizzard pulls up Garithos. Y'know while the belfs were busy hating the Alliance based on the Alliance's worst character its a pity they couldn't think of any negative individual examples to define the Horde races. Guess this is what the call a gap in logic, huh?

B) "She's gone to far!" Announces the belf leader (calm down he's about to be worthy of a name).

Um no. I guess word never got around to the belfs about Southshore, or Ashenvale, or the Druid School in Stonetalon, or Theramore.

So the horde are fully embarked on a genocidal campaign to massacre every Alliance settlement and are attacking them across Azeroth. (Well you hear mention constantly about how the Orcs Grunts look forward to invading Stormwind so I assume). The Horde even employs bio-weapons, weapons of mass destruction and mind control.

"Jaina is attacking a Horde affiliated faction!"

"Shes gone to far!"

I had already face palmed by the time some belf ranger declared that Lor'themar would make an excellent Warchief. Ya I guess he would, he is apparently privy to all the faction leader memos (which are just outlines of Chris Metzen's genitals I assume). He also clearly has the logical capacity of an orc. I hope he just doesn't mention the whole slavery conundrum. Orcs might also realize that the Blood Elves effectively signed off on all that.

5) The Forsaken. The Forsaken are so felling cool. Damn I love Sylvanas' character. She's evil and conniving and she loves it. No apologists make excuses for her so I don't get frustrated on her topic, and she has always been written acting logically, consistently, and with a strong presence. Just looking at her can fully inform anyone on Blizzards huge lore staff exactly what she is and meant to do in the story.

So the Forsaken are basically pure evil at this point. Not chaotic, not lawful, just good old fashioned pure evil. There's no real hiding it. BUT they also present a problem in the story. So Baine and Vol'Jin just sit around listening to what the Forsaken are doing, and then somehow manage to conjure outrage when the Alliance strikes back against them. -More on this later.

Are the Pandas really going to look at the Forsaken, at their history and recent actions and NOT sign up with the Alliance? I guess the Wandering Isle Pandas did, they got that brochure before they signed up with the Horde which read: "Ten things you should know about the Horde: How the Slavery beef is fake and details on the sexy She-Satan who reanimates corpses."

At least a big Forsaken plot-hole is fixed by the crack Blizzard lore team:

Q: Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom: Sylvanas or the Val’kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

A: Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

So the Forsaken may be malicious but they respect free-will. Oh okay that makes sense.

Until you think about it.

Wait so how is this respecting free will at all? They resurrect you as a monster (with your permission?) and then when knowing your in an emotionally volatile state turn you against friends and family (confirmed in Wolfheart) to murder them, so they can take your land. Then when that's done and you calm down they offer you the choice of being killed again, or joining their war machine. How is that respectful of free will? How is that basically not the exact same thing as mind control: Their putting some serious dark magic in your body, then manipulating you while your conscious is suppressed than offering a rhinos bargain.

Come to think of it if their so respectful of free will did they ask the Gilneans if they WANTED to have a massive war waged against them with WMDs. Did they ask the people of Southshore for permission to melt them all into sludge? What do they do with the feral undead, do they assume the people they resurrected in that scenario would just agree to whatever? What about the Abominations? Are the stitched together by donor parts?

Jesus, I'm begging to think Blizzards concept of "free will" is as fucked as their interpretation of "redemption." God knows what they think "freedom" or "democracy" means.

I'm a little freaked out now.

So Blizzard has to stick to the lines of: "No, No the Horde aren't evil. The Forsaken aren't evil. They have this free will value."

While also dodging plot holes, and avoiding attention to the fact that the Horde basically has no gas left in the "justification" tank.

Which brings me to Vol'Jin, Baine and basically every Alliance hero (especially in Cataclysm) characters of WoW.

Do they know what's going on across the world? The answer I get from everyone is: "No obviously not."

If that's the case how does that work in the story? A human could just pass along these tales of woe to a Tauren. How are the leaders so uninformed, it takes a week to cross the sea to reach Kalimdor in Tides of War. Wait it takes a week to reach Kalimdor? How the fuck didn't the Alliance discover it in the centuries of naval domination they had? Its been established that the leaders can simply call upon mages to port them anywhere they need to go. It all really comes down to this:

If the main characters in a story have no idea whats going on or what's at stake, what their own motivations are or where to go and who to talk to, then there is no story.

Or maybe there is. Just a sloppy shitty one.

You could argue that my frustrations are invalid because everyone is confused and operating partially in the dark, just like a real war, but you will never sell me on the idea that in such a cartoony exaggerated world the one real gritty aspect is information.

Its more likely that the story is stitched together by many, many, many different people, some of whom have real talent (Christie Golden) some who don't. Some who care, and others who are focusing on their work in Starcraft or another IP. At the end of the day Panda's is shaping out to be just as confusing and grotesquely misshapen as those expansions before it, despite all the money and time being devoted to tell a story. A story of stinks of real world motivation, mingling poorly beside attempts at artistry. A story that doesn't make sense.

I'll do Alliance next. Honestly I'm just getting started.

Plinkett homage intentional

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You're wrong about a lot of your points. I just lack the will to write out something that long as yours. Here are tidbits:

a.) Blame is being shouldered on Garrosh because he deserves it. Research the other shit he's doing in 5.1. It doesn't mean the Orcs that willingly follow him aren't guilty of some thing or another, but that is just not how the Orcs and their Warchief operate. The Warchief has total and full authority over everything. This isn't like the Alliance, where Varian gets openly challenged on his ideas by others (Jaina, Tyrande, Genn, Velen, ect). What Garrosh says is goes. You can argue this is wrong, maybe I'd agree with you, but that is simply what the position of Warchief denotes. Perhaps we see, at the end of MoP, the dissolving of the Warchief position in favor of a more council-like leadership structure like the Alliance, with an openly agreed upon figurehead, like Varian.

b.) Thrall gets involved because Garrosh directly threatens Vol'jin and then stations the Kor'kron at the Echo Isles to keep the Trolls in line. Another thing you should have found out about 5.1 after going so in depth why you are annoyed. Vol'jin gets poisoned (At least that's what I've gathered by the datamined voice files and quests), and directly sends the players to get Thrall to help them because his people are being actively suppressed. Garrosh wasn't "this bad" when Thrall said what you quotes him saying.

c.) You say the Forsaken were slavers of the Orcs. This is just not true, anywhere. Are you talking about the fact that a lot of the Forsaken were former Lorderani? It was King Terenas' decision, not the people's. And we've well established that the Forsaken are no longer seen by ANYONE as Lorderani except perhaps themselves, when they go in their "This is our land!" kick. The Orcs don't care about this fact. Making this point would be in the exact same vein as blaming Blood Elves for something the Highborne did back during the War of the Ancients. Its foolish and unrelated.

d.) Lor'themar mentions Garithos because he's pissed that JAINA's actions in Dalaran are forcing the Belves closer to Garrosh's Horde (Who he expresses open disdain for), and talks about how it was ultimately Garithos' who forced the original Blood Elves into Alliances with the Forsaken and Thrall's Horde. Lor'themar is pissed because Jaina not only kicks out the Sunreavers, but imprisons a lot of them. While I love the fact that the Kirin Tor is going back to the Alliance, Aethas and Lor'themar are right in this scenario. The Sunreavers are, at least 99% of them, innocent, as is their leader.

e.) You talk about Forsaken free will. That's all well and good. But that also was a tenet of the Forsaken from VANILLA. Sylvanas has undergone a rapid character change with the Lich King's death. She forsakes (pun intended) this notion after Godfrey, whom she thinks was a good idea to resurrect to help her, openly defies her, kills her, forces her to waste 3 of her precious Val'kyr, and throws her whole original strategy of "You have free will but the rest of the world hates your kind, so your options are limited, join me or be killed by some force or another" out the window. She instead begins using the Val'kyr and her own magics to mind control people. It makes sense, from her point of view. Nothing like Godfrey can happen again, or it seriously jeopardizes her empire.

You're passionate about the lore. That's good. You're just missing large chunks of information or are just plain wrong about others. You say the story makes no sense, and this is false. The story makes perfect sense. You're taking what people/factions have said/done 10+ years ago, taking what they're saying and doing now, and then calling foul. You're missing super large chunks of context in between.

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Garrosh- Wait what? This is entirely opinion but how does what you just said make sense. You just said "It is Garrosh fault. Because he has a position of absolute power." But. What? People are still choosing to side with him and do what he says. How is having a title at all exempting the Horde from evil by association. Isn't there free will?

The point was also closely related to the culture of the Orcs, and how its messed and needs to changed. If they largely disagree with Garrosh but are committing and leading these violent and murderous actions in his name anyways just cuz: "He's the Warchief" doesn't that sort of support the whole argument I made. Furthermore we know Garrosh is going to face a rebellion. Alright fine. Thank goodness the Horde leaders had the courage to stand up and face him, once they were the ones with people suffering. And now the Alliance is going to have to sit and listen to the Horde say; "No, we're the New NEW Horde this time. Really we're good this time, honest." The Alliance called, they have a fist full of justice on their backs, and their here ready to begin delivering it yo YOUR Horde children. Guess then we will be the bad guys.

This going to end with the Alliance taking the pounding they did in Cataclysm, and the Horde feeling no guilt for the whole affair or suffering anything near equal repercussions.

Thrall was in Tides of War, when told about Garrosh his reaction is basically: "meh."

You, can't really argue that point. I wasn't referring to the upcoming story in Pandas.

Slavery. Ya this is true. My point is that its totally ignored by the lore team. Orcs were slaves who were forced to rebuild Lorderan after the war. Confirmed. Forsaken are the undead remains of the people of Lorderan. Also confirmed. Orcs are constantly harping on how mad they are at the Stormwind humans, accusing them of being the slavers, also true. (The people they committed genocide against)

This is a logical fallacy and plot hole. The Orcs don't have any real motivation to want to burn Stormwind to the ground. They should be remorseful that the whole event took place way way back. The humans on the other hand are right where they need to be, their full of over-righteous zeal. They are hell bent on revenge to the point where it is fanatical. But you can still sympathize with them, because of where their coming from. At least their motivations make sense. Stomrwinders have every reason to hate Orcs and Orcs... "Well we've always been fighting humans, and those guys are humans so..."

Lorthemar was getting picked on specifically for the wording in his sentences. That wasn't fair I agree. I'm also super excited because he's stepping up, finally some BELF pride. He says "Jaina has gone to far." Ya maybe, But is he really surprised? Is he really up to date on what shes been through? Is he aware of how far this conflict has escalated? He also says the Alliance are bigots. Again casting this assumption over the existing because a general representing Lorderan (again the people who are now in the Horde) a while back hurt Kael'Thas pride. I point out the irony that people who are ignoring all the evidence and screeching about the Alliance being racist are hilariously, racist, for taking the actions of one human and casting them over the entire race which has proven to be friendly and amicable (provided you didn't introduce yourself as a servant of Satan and try to murder them).

What Lorthemar should have said was something like: "We never abandoned our old alliances! We stand by the people of Lorderan just as we always have!"

Not only would this placate Sylvanas, reinforce obvious lore, reject Kale'Thas philosophy and move the blood elves into a more positive light. The Lorderani were their friends. Just cuz their husks now, maybe they still want to help this group of people they had bled with and intermarried.

Instead Lorthemar brings up Garithos. Great.

This question about the forsaken was asked and answered very recently. I don't think you can convince me that a blizzard reply from a year ago, was directed at lore from Vanilla. I think its much more likely that Blizzard is desperately clinging to certain pre-ascribed lines. Clearly you agree, the Forsaken are basically pure malevolence at this point. That's fine, they are a great addition to the story and I really like them. Sure there are individual examples and characters in the Forsaken who are not evil, and that makes for some great drama and story potential. The Forsaken are basically just plain bad at this point. Yet somehow the rest of the Horde gets to be allied with them (and fight with them, plenty of Orcs in the Gilnean starting zone) and not suffer any moral crisis in the eyes of its player base or fans. Its frustrating.

I see differences in opinion here between us, this wasn't a serious first post, but I can cite evidence for each case. I just don't see how this is wrong.

My major point, that the main characters are not intelligent is constantly reinforced in the books, comics, even in games. They never seem to know whats happening elsewhere, are taken by surprise and completely lack logical follow ups when speaking to enemy leaders.

Also Blizzard is just bad at character consistency. Take the whole Doomhammer thing. Doomhammer is a sincerely evil dude. He did awful things, and was never possessed by no demon blood. Orcs can just be bad to the core, anyone can. Yet Thrall whenever he is arguing the Horde has changed, wears Doomhammer's armor and openly honors his memory. In the comics this is most obvious when there is a peace council in Theramore, and Thrall shows up in the aforementioned duds. He basically says to Varian's face that the Horde has changed, while wearing the gear of the Orc who perpetrated the second war.

Thrall would never be this stupid, but Blizzard would be. They were likely worried that unless they portrayed their main characters in their iconic armor sets that the reader would be confused. *sigh*

The Horde is no longer morally ambiguous, they tossed that out in Cataclysm. Their straight up dark and teeming with negativity, so's the Alliance, but the difference is its provoked, and their motivations are justified. The Alliance are on the verge of slipping down into dark places, while the Horde instead of trying to climb out, is just painting a big target on Garrosh. Alright I'll cede that the story of WoW makes sense. Its the story of a world. But personal stories, and lead characters in the Lore are a mess.

If you think i'm not backing up my opinion, then lets start citing evidence. There's enough supporting me that I'm sitting pretty comfortably right now. The biggest flaw in my argument is that its frustration for a story we haven't even been teased about yet. We don't know how this will all go down, but I am bracing for more of a mess.

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This entire thread hurts my brain. Your warped sense of the lore and factional bias would be funny if you didn't speak from such a place of supposed authority on the subject. Not really interested in continuing this conversation now that I remember some of your older threads.

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Fair enough.

I get mah authoritah by reading all the books, owning all the comics and leveling up to max on both factions.

At the end of the day its just as legitimate authoritah as one can have. as legitimate as cartmans

As for the factional Bias I haven't written up yet what i think about the Alliance. There are less plot holes, and gaps in logic, but large parts are unnecessarily confusing and the faction leaders themselves are inconsistent and falling on their faces constantly.

They can't even settle on a voice actress for Tyrande, much less a model or personality.

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It's going to be confusing with lore because they can't do something extreme anymore with any playable race/faction. At least not if they want to keep some players. People get attached to races, factions, etc etc after having spent a lot of time playing. A good example would be the Forsaken. If thousands of people woke up one day to find their toon has been booted from the Horde, they wouldn't care what the lore is. They'd be pissed. Lore is gonna change and characters are going to evolve based on this single fact.

Faction leaders can come and go. That doesn't affect players ability to play. Towns can change and lands can be conquered/razed. Still shouldn't impact things too heavily if players routed someplace. ( Like Worgen. ) But the Blood elves leaving the Horde or any other playable race gtfoing? Not gonna happen. And thus your lore suffers.

I will happily edit my post if Blizzard makes me eat my own words.

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So, Garrosh wasn't despicable enough? They had to move him up a peg? Understand, I play a troll that is loyal to Vol'jin above all others, so Garrosh was already the enemy in my mind. Then Theramore cemented him as a villain perhaps even above Arthas; equal to at least considering that both were mewling wimps before the got any real power.

In Tides, Garrosh hiring a Blackrock as his personal bodyguard and de facto leader of the Korkoron took it as far as it needed to go. I realize that a lot of players have not/will not read the lore books, but they aren't going to care either way anyway.

I suppose having him kill a key Alliance leader(ling?) will ultimately justify him becoming a target of both Alliance and Horde agression. I just don't think it was necessary.

Oh, and Belfs/Forsaken going third faction? Fun to speculate about but won't happen. Too much hard coding would be necessary, and Blizz won't do that.

EDIT: one further point I meant to address; a race that is recovering from the bonds and after effects of slavery still being bitter about it, yeah, that could never happen...(not all, I know, but still).

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@ Sett

-Ya I agree. I understand big I.P.s like this are basically a business, but its sad when the artistry and logic in a universe you love begins to suffer. I think a prime example of this was opening more classes to more races. Yes I can believe that an exceptional individual in any race can effectively become anything. The Race/Class restrictions are one the last real examples of lore having an impact on the game itself, when it becomes muddied, so are the distinct themes of each race. Thats all opinion of course.

@Gor

-I don't believe Anduin will die. Maybe punched off a cliff but not killed. Like a comic book character, Blizzard has invested time and money into the character and can potentially make a lot more money off him in the future.

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the over-enthusiastic captain of the Alliance flagship was a native of Soutshore, shes there to get sweet sweet revenge, while the Orc commander is just a bastard who wants to take stuff, and is motivated by, well nothing but being an orc I guess.
The Orc commander is an outcast in a land that would see him enslaved, exiled or worse. Might makes right, and he must fight to carve a place for his people to live.
1) Hitler
lol
Horde apologists are struggling, struggling to wipe all the egg off their faces
*Lathers face in egg indulgently*
Garrosh is one guy.
Who is the autocrat of a war machine.
Garrosh is being set up for a fall, but it's almost a little too perfect, and with no mention of the fact that Garrosh must have massive support behind him
Your argument is that this doesn't make sense; it makes plenty of sense. Even the most unpopular leaders have loyalist support bases. When unpopular leaders go down, it is they who wear the consequences of their rule; not their sizable fan-base (see: Mussolini, Pinochet, Mao and the gang of four, Saddam, Gaddafi).
(as in, how the hell does killing a demon you willfully teamed up with for entirely selfish reason count as redemption)
Your first good point; I often wonder this. Or rather, I thought it was dumb. The Orcs don't need to concoct a heroic sacrifice of racial redemption to turn over a new leaf.

Though I guess that was perhaps more the point; maybe Hellscream didn't achieve much in the way of redemption by willfully drinking of Mannoroths blood to win a battle, then turning around and killing him. But he did give his life to kill Mannoroth- maybe Grom saw that dying in this manner would achieve three objectives. Firstly he, as the greatest hero of 'those days' would signify the end of an era with his death. Secondly, Mannoroth dying is a powerful symbol of Orckind's triumph over felkind's domination of them. Thirdly and finally, it was an epic, worthy, and honorable way to go; if you've gotta die someday, what better opportunity than that?

In order to be redeemed you have to apologize, admit fault, actually feel sorry (only you would know for sure) and then do something to make it right. You can't just live through some traumatic event, and declare yourself redeemed. There doesn't have to be forgiveness but you should seek it out.
My first inclination is to call bullshit on your arbitrary terms of redemption; but that is overridden by the premise that redemption requires a third party of moral arbitration. There isn't such a party in Azeroth; unless you mean to suggest it's the Alliance, which the Orcs were never trying to redeem themselves to. If anything it was to themselves, one another. Their redemption was a catharsis of self-determination and respect.
wearing Doomhammers gear to peace treaty meetings with the Alliance(Doomhammer who was a genocidal racist demon worshiping maniac, oh and he never drank any demon blood to get that way)).
Doomhammer was a mighty and powerful Orc General who wreaked havoc upon the Alliance without partaking of felblood. Wearing it sends a clear and strong message; let us talk peace, but remember who we are and what we can do- you should fear the alternative to peace with our tribe.
...they were enslaved by the Kingdom of Lorderan not Stormwind.
Who were both very close partners in the Alliance until Lordaeron was utterly destroyed by the scourge. Remember in Warcraft one after the Horde whipped the Kingdom of Stormwind's ass and razed the place to the ground, where did Lothar flee with his people?
Sure you could say the orcs are racist and dumb, and that few (very few) Lorderani survivors escaped to Stormwind.
Other way around, Stormwind survivors escaped to Lordaeron, the two have been inseparably aligned ever since. The King of Stormwind grew up in Lordaeron, as a royal guest; Prince Arthas and Varian were childhood friends, Varian looked up to Terenas as a father. The Lordaerani people sheltered the entire refugee population of Stormwind for decades.

You can't be sincere when you assert that these two extraordinarily close kingdoms (militarily, culturally, historically, diplomatically, and ethnically) are completely distinct and cannot reasonably be tarred with the same brush. The first War was Stormwind vs the Horde, they lost and fled to Lordaeron. The second war was the Alliance of Azeroth vs the Horde (headquartered guess where? Lordaeron. What about the remaining great Champion of Stormwind Lothar, what was he doing? Oh right fighting for the Alliance of 'Lordaeron'). The Third war saw the downfall of this alliance proper, a lot of splintered factions fighting across many different lines for preservation, and ultimately the rallying and reformation of the alliance, Headquartered back in Stormwind.

Then you stop and think about it, and hey, wait. Arn't the people of Lorderan still around as the Forsaken, aren't they in the Horde now?
What of it? If anyone should have pause, it would be the Forsaken, not the Orcs. The thing is being utterly destroyed by the scourge, transcending the veil of unlife, serving in subjugation for the Lich King, and regaining your free will again kind of changes you. Gives some perspective. Suddenly the Orcs aren't the worst memory you have. Suddenly they are your only chance in a hostile world (and you theirs). It was an alliance of convenience- sure, it still is- however it does make sense.
I guess if they brought this up they would have to change tune to that the Orcs are mad at the Humans, BECAUSE the Humans are mad at them first...
They wouldn't have to change tune; Orcs don't like Humans, they've been fighting them for generations now, and with pretty decent reasoning the Orcs have figured they are either all in Cahoots (Every Human Kingdom of the Alliance of Azeroth, circa the second war), or at the very least they are untrustworthy (Alterac). This isn't nonsensical.
(For allying with Satan, comitting genocide against their species and burning down their city in an orgy of murder and rape <- confirmed)
'Satan', really?

Also, 'rape'? That sounds a bit above Warcraft's classification. Do clarify *expects the most tenuous implied case*

He says the belfs left the Alliance because the alliance are bigots. So following the belf logic, in the aftermath of the most devastating conflict in Lorderans history, the sole surviving general Garithos gathers together the remaining living forces and proves to bea huge racist. Despite a history of amicable relations, despite the fact the belfs would have had to have known the command structure of Lorderan and that this was a terrible convenience, despite the many many examples of blood elves and humans getting it on, the insane power hungry prince of the belfs declares their withdrawl from the Alliance, and the Belfs still uphold it.
Whoa whoa whoa, since when do the Elves of Quel Thalas have 'a history of amicable relations'? From what I can tell their relationship was rather cool. Not hostile, sure, but they didn't help out in the first war at all, and in the second war, they donated a token force of rangers (and only then begause Alleria insisted). For the entire history of primitive Human civilisation the Elves have been living it large in floating towers of unthinkable arcane advancement while humans have been farming mud. No I'd say the Elves had quite a practical and reserved relationship with the Humans of Lordaeron. "Don't bother us, and we won't bother you". It wasn't until Quel'thalas itself was under threat that they made any effort to help the humans out (and not a grand one, none of the throngs of advanced elf mages from a crown magocracy made an appearance on the battlefields of WCII), and even then it was clear they were prepared for the Humans to defend Quel'thalas from the Horde in the south whilst marshalling their reserves back home in case they lost.

Belves still uphold Kael Thas' decision to leave the Alliance because he wasn't crazy when he made the decision, he had good reasons at the time, they were never much part of the Alliance anyhow, and it doesn't suit them to do different now. It really doesn't have much to do with Kael Thas at all- all he did was make the obvious choice, any leader would have done the same. Besides they hardly left the Alliance, the Alliance was destroyed, it's remnants turned on them, then they fucked off to outland. The Alliance reformed while they were mostly gone; I don't even see why the elves would have been invited. "Hey remember those fancy pants elves from back when the Alliance was HQ'd in Lordaeron- the ones that got mostly wiped out by successive disaters then fled to outland? Yeah maybe we should get in touch with them and see if they'd like to join our regional alliance."

Now that wouldn't make sense.

Throw in the completely unprovoked and horrific attacks against the Draenei whose leader later re-ignites the Sunwell. Sure your thinking this whole bigotry comment through Lort-belf leader?
You know I'm not quite sure why the Belves attacked the Draenei; but it's not bigoted to launch a surprise attack on someone.
The belfs should be quietly feeling guilty in a corner for THEMSELVES begin racist, following a madman on an insane quest for power from Satan, then causing untold suffering to an innocent populous.
Again with Satan. This makes you come off either as a rabid Christian who denounces evil in all it's incarnations by the proper noun 'Satan'; or as an hyperbolic fan boy who froths with equivocation so dire one begins to wonder if they're trolling or rapt in self-deceit. Neither are particularly flattering.

Also, I think you need to look up 'racist'; unless you actually meant to say the Elves attacked the Draenei because they hate blueskins.

he is in the Horde mostly because Sylvanas is hanging a sword over the belfs. What else can they do? They are surrounded by forsaken, they can't even reach the Alliance.
If you know this, then what is hard to understand about the Belves joining the Horde. It makes perfect sense.
B) "She's gone to far!" Announces the belf leader (calm down he's about to be worthy of a name).

Um no. I guess word never got around to the belfs about Southshore, or Ashenvale, or the Druid School in Stonetalon, or Theramore.

Or you're ignoring the extremely relevant cultural context of Humans fucking over Elves in Dalaran- that and why should Lor'themar accept perfectly innocent elves should be targetted by supposedly 'faction neutral' Dalaran. Even if they are legitimate targets, it doesn't have to be fair reasoning to make sense.
I had already face palmed by the time some belf ranger declared that Lor'themar would make an excellent Warchief. Ya I guess he would, he is apparently privy to all the faction leader memos (which are just outlines of Chris Metzen's genitals I assume). He also clearly has the logical capacity of an orc. I hope he just doesn't mention the whole slavery conundrum.
Whatisthisidonteven...
Orcs might also realize that the Blood Elves effectively signed off on all that.
No they didn't; this is just a massive ass-pull on your part.
So Baine and Vol'Jin just sit around listening to what the Forsaken are doing, and then somehow manage to conjure outrage when the Alliance strikes back against them. -More on this later.
Or they bemoan and distrust the inclusion of forsaken in the Horde because of these things, but endure because of geopolitical necessity. It makes perfect sense. Kind of like how America's foreign policy isn't exactly popular in Australia, but we deal with it (and even give token support) because we need America for our own security.
Are the Pandas really going to look at the Forsaken, at their history and recent actions and NOT sign up with the Alliance? I guess the Wandering Isle Pandas did, they got that brochure before they signed up with the Horde which read: "Ten things you should know about the Horde: How the Slavery beef is fake and details on the sexy She-Satan who reanimates corpses."
The Huojin philosphy of Pandaria is one of moral relativism and decisive action. Through this lens, it's easy to see what they see in the Horde.
Wait so how is this respecting free will at all? They resurrect you as a monster (with your permission?) and then when knowing your in an emotionally volatile state turn you against friends and family (confirmed in Wolfheart) to murder them, so they can take your land. Then when that's done and you calm down they offer you the choice of being killed again, or joining their war machine. How is that respectful of free will? How is that basically not the exact same thing as mind control: Their putting some serious dark magic in your body, then manipulating you while your conscious is suppressed than offering a rhinos bargain.
All of these things infringe upon your rights, not your free will (except for the 'grace period' shortly after resurrection when you don't really have free will, but aren't really yourself either; no harm no foul). The difference is that you are allowed to act and think for yourself; you have free will. Free will does not imply unlimited opportunity and protected rights.
Come to think of it if their so respectful of free will did they ask the Gilneans if they WANTED to have a massive war waged against them with WMDs. Did they ask the people of Southshore for permission to melt them all into sludge? What do they do with the feral undead, do they assume the people they resurrected in that scenario would just agree to whatever? What about the Abominations? Are the stitched together by donor parts?
Whatisthisidonteven- again! Geez, you can't honestly think that in order to value free will, your leaders must respect the geopolitical sovereignty of regional rivals. Wwhaaaa?
Jesus, I'm begging to think Blizzards concept of "free will" is as fucked as their interpretation of "redemption." God knows what they think "freedom" or "democracy" means.
I think there are certainly fucked interpretations and concepts; but not on Blizzards part. You seem to be necessitating the philosophical precept of free will to come with prerequisites of civil and sovereing rights. Does America 'ask' before they 'bring democracy' to a resource rich shithole? Does that mean Americans aren't free? Does that mean they don't have free will? Going to war has little directly to do with domestic liberty, and nothing at all to do with free-will.
I'm a little freaked out now.
Likewise.
Do they know what's going on across the world? The answer I get from everyone is: "No obviously not."

If that's the case how does that work in the story? A human could just pass along these tales of woe to a Tauren. How are the leaders so uninformed, it takes a week to cross the sea to reach Kalimdor in Tides of War.

Perhaps they are informed, but don't give a shit- or perhaps they give a shit, but there's little to be done about it. Makes sense.
Wait it takes a week to reach Kalimdor? How the fuck didn't the Alliance discover it in the centuries of naval domination they had?
Did they have naval domination? First of all, the Alliance didn't exist before the second war. Second of all, at the beginning of the second war, the Alliance's naval clout seemed to consist solely of High Elf ships. It wasn't until later that they deployed Human-made battleships and gnomish submarines. For all we know the Humans were... well feudal. Sure the Elves knew about it, they came from there. But the Humans hadn't really developed to that point yet- they were still building castles with their bare hands to joust over.
...
._.

Slagworth agrees with Necro for once

Garrosh- Wait what? This is entirely opinion but how does what you just said make sense. You just said "It is Garrosh fault. Because he has a position of absolute power." But. What? People are still choosing to side with him and do what he says. How is having a title at all exempting the Horde from evil by association. Isn't there free will?

The point was also closely related to the culture of the Orcs, and how its messed and needs to changed. If they largely disagree with Garrosh but are committing and leading these violent and murderous actions in his name anyways just cuz: "He's the Warchief" doesn't that sort of support the whole argument I made.

No, because the argument you made is that it doesn't make sense. A population obeying an authoritarian leader makes sense.
Thrall was in Tides of War, when told about Garrosh his reaction is basically: "meh."
Thrall chose Garrosh because he was hot headed; it was his opinion that this was the kind of leadership the Horde needed- he explained this to Vol'jin in Cata (troll starting experience). Disagree if you want, but it makes sense.
Orcs are constantly harping on how mad they are at the Stormwind humans, accusing them of being the slavers, also true.
Would we say 'always harping on about it'? It almost never comes up, and is more often in reference to their much longer subjugation at the hands of demons. In the entire Horde levelling experience the only questlines I can think of where it comes up are in Arathi, because that is where one of the internment camps was (so relevant, really).
(The people they committed genocide against)
The Orcs never commited genocide. Nor were they genocidal. There are two valid ways of looking at it, as pawns of *Sargeras* they were omnicidal (and unsuccessful). As *pawns* of Sargeras they were just warlike (and quite successful).
This is a logical fallacy
There is no logical fallacy to speak of.
The Orcs don't have any real motivation to want to burn Stormwind to the ground. They should be remorseful that the whole event took place way way back.
How about because Burning shit is fun, especially shit humans built, especially if Humans still live there. Ho about because they've razed Stormwind twice before and want to go for a hat trick? How about because it is the capital of their biggest geopolitical rival. If Stormwind goes down, their biggest threat goes down with it, and they are top dogs of Azeroth. Hell, they could probably even ditch the Forsaken and the Elves.
because a general representing Lorderan (again the people who are now in the Horde) a while back hurt Kael'Thas pride.
He did a little more than hurt Kael'thas' pride. He rounded up the remaining Blood elf population, locked them up in Dalaran (thanks Kirin Tor!) and scheduled the entire race for execution. What's the word for that... geez, can't quit think of what you'd call it when someone systematically and consciously attempts to exterminate an entire race.
I point out the irony that people who are ignoring all the evidence and screeching about the Alliance being racist are hilariously, racist, for taking the actions of one human and casting them over the entire race which has proven to be friendly and amicable (provided you didn't introduce yourself as a servant of Satan and try to murder them).
Again with Satan. Also, it sounds like you're talking about real people, and calling them racist for prejudices against fantasy races- unless you mean all those people in the lore who are constantly screeching about the alliance being racist (?).
What Lorthemar should have said was something like: "We never abandoned our old alliances! We stand by the people of Lorderan just as we always have!"

Not only would this placate Sylvanas, reinforce obvious lore, reject Kale'Thas philosophy and move the blood elves into a more positive light. The Lorderani were their friends. Just cuz their husks now, maybe they still want to help this group of people they had bled with and intermarried.

Instead Lorthemar brings up Garithos. Great.

Except making a positive statement about the forsaken wouldn't have much relevance to his consternation at Jaina's actions against his people in Dalaran. He's upset at Humans, and speaking of that. In particular, he's upset of human treatment of Elves in Dalaran- Garithos is the natural thing to bring up.
The Forsaken are basically just plain bad at this point. Yet somehow the rest of the Horde gets to be allied with them (and fight with them, plenty of Orcs in the Gilnean starting zone) and not suffer any moral crisis in the eyes of its player base or fans.
Oh this is easy; it's a game.
Its frustrating.
Why?
Also Blizzard is just bad at character consistency. Take the whole Doomhammer thing. Doomhammer is a sincerely evil dude. He did awful things, and was never possessed by no demon blood. Orcs can just be bad to the core, anyone can. Yet Thrall whenever he is arguing the Horde has changed, wears Doomhammer's armor and openly honors his memory. In the comics this is most obvious when there is a peace council in Theramore, and Thrall shows up in the aforementioned duds. He basically says to Varian's face that the Horde has changed, while wearing the gear of the Orc who perpetrated the second war.
As I said, Doomhammer was a warlord, brilliant military strategist, and Orc hero. He is not only a symbol of Orc might, but also a prominent figure of orc power who stood against Gul'dan and the Shadow Council. Wearing his armour to peace talks is making a statement; diplomatic posturing as it were. Kind of like how North Korea will build Nukes and then goes to peace talks; they get taken more seriously and secure better concessions.
Thrall would never be this stupid, but Blizzard would be. They were likely worried that unless they portrayed their main characters in their iconic armor sets that the reader would be confused. *sigh*
Or it isn't stupid at all.
Alright I'll cede that the story of WoW makes sense.
Well then, you've ceded your central argument. WoW makes sense.

They can't even settle on a voice actress for Tyrande, much less a model or personality.

They used the same voice actress, she herself seems to be the one who was confused.

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Your unfairly picking apart a semi-comedic post. I'm not even sure how to respond, since most of what I was writing was supposed to be nonsensical. Thanks for not completely dismissing me out of hand though? Its like your being a smart ass to a smart ass post. Anyways, you completely ignore the context of most of what I said.

Okay first off with Garrosh. When countries being led by autocrats have fallen, they have always suffered severe penalties, such as de-militarization or trade tariffs, usually as a punishment. The idea that Garrosh is pulling all of this off and the blame is entirely upon him is so nonsensical I don't even know how to respond. You don't really try to argue against my point about Orc culture. The point was this a preemptive complaint, because we know once again the Horde is going to have done something horrid and will likely suffer little to no consequences. The Orc commander is a bastard, um, thank you for going into detail as to why he is.

We should also also clarify the Satan thing. Back in WC1 Orcs and Humans it was largely implied (if not outright stated) I believe that the Orcs were allied with the devil, and the humans represented the good christian Europeans. None of the Warcraft lore had really been thought up at that point so I was basically making a reference to that, you mistake this wink and nudge as me (an Atheist) being a hard line Christian. Wait. Do you know much about WoW Lore or is this all reflexive. Also yes Orcs confirmed to rape, unless your going to argue that they were hella into breeding programs and raping Draenei, but didn't do the same to humans? I mean since it is outright stated that Gul'Dan's Horde is raping Draenei all over the place, I just assumed they would also take the time to rape some humans while they were killing them. So you got me I guess?

Now about the slavery thing. You argue that Stormwind and Lorderan were really tight, which they were. That doesn't reinforce your own argument though. One, the Orcs were enslaved IN Lorderan and rebuilt Lorderan, while even Stormwind had to fall back on swindling the masons guild to get their city out of of disrepair. Two, my point was that the Orcs never realize or make any mention that the Forsaken are the people of Lorderan. If Lorderan was as tight with Stormwind, which it was, you'd think the Orcs would have even deeper qualms with them, but no where is it mentioned by any of them. As for the slavery thing, well Thrall is always on about it in the books, he even mentions it directly thrice in game during Cataclysm. If you were counting as you leveled (which I did) it comes up pretty often. My point is the Orcs are still awfully sore about it, but their rage is directed against the Stormwinders, which doesn't make sense.

I think your missing the point here. It isn't about me saying: "The Forsaken and Orcs should be fighting!" Its that if Blizzard had a better handled on their lore they could add just a few throw away lines or even some quest text to explain this. Well they can't now, not at this point. Its not about me thinking the Horde should be a mess of in-fighting, its that this could be corrected. You really seem to have taken this as a personal attack against yourself or the integrity of the Horde when its more of a "calling out" Blizzard on an increasingly fractured story.

While we're on the topic of Thrall, I mentioned the Doomhammer armor thing. You come up with a cockney argument about how Thrall could be using it as a subtle threat. Thrall is never portrayed in this manner, and in the scene in the comics I'm mentioning is not pushing the whole "don't mess with us", idea, he has Garrosh beside him to do that. Instead Thrall is vehemently arguing that the orcs have changed. While wearing a glaring reminder of the old horde. So you concocting some subliminal character-breaking theory, is a lot less likely then what I argued: That Blizzard insists the main characters always wear their iconic gear due to business concerns.

Thrall also shows indifference when told the Horde is going back to the old Horde. Um, I explained that this is bad because we need to sympathize with him as a protagonist, but I thought it went without saying that it was massively character breaking for the peace loving, orc-jesus to shrug of the mention that his people are turning sour and in danger.

You actually try to debate the "One week to sail across to Kalimdor" thing. Wait, the elves had the most ships? Hang on, DO you know much about lore? Or are we trolling one another? :D

Over one thousand years ago, the city-state of Kul Tiras was founded upon a large island west of Khaz Modan and in between Stormwind and Lordaeron. Kul Tiras developed a thriving economy based on fishing and exports. Over the years mighty fleets of merchant vessels were built and they sailed throughout the seas in search of exotic goods to trade and sell.

Um. I'm not sure if this is entirely canonical since it came from an RPG book. (Those were all disavowed right?) But it is canon that Kul-Tiras has had an enormous, and extremely powerful merchant and military fleet for centuries.

So my point is it doesn't make any sense that the humans never discovered Kalimdor if it takes ONE WEEK to sail there. Not only does it take a week to sail there in the Tides of War book, but this is consistent with the travel time in the comics and other novels.

Again I look forward to you inventing something but I'm balancing this against the idea that; "Blizzard hired on a lore team that hasn't read the history in depth."

The Forsaken are basically just plain bad at this point. Yet somehow the rest of the Horde gets to be allied with them (and fight with them, plenty of Orcs in the Gilnean starting zone) and not suffer any moral crisis in the eyes of its player base or fans.

Oh this is easy; it's a game.

Wait you just ceded your whole argument in a manner similar to how I do at the end of my post. Feels like mine was supposed to be semi-comedic while this was unintentional though, was it? To clarify if your backed into a corner where you throw up your hands and say; "It's a game." Why do you care about any of this anyways? Why are you even in the Lore thread at all? I also need to add a lot of you quoting me is incredibly short, completely taking single sentences out of context and then skewering them. Was this intentional?

If your going to say the Forsaken respect "free will" then your being awfully technical about it. It should really be re-written to "Do not use mind control spells."

The Devs say they respect free will, but they totally kill people for no reason other than pure malice and they ressurect them into possibly mindless undead to fight for them and kill their enemies. So then to say: 'They respect free will' seems like it must be a pretty narrow and technical definition of the subject which completely ignores the spirit of such a value, or really any decency at all.

My point about Blizzards idea of redemption, free will and sacrifice in a story is always tied to the idea of pro-action. Which makes sense if your a game company, would be a pretty boring game if the story became less about action and fighting and more about emotions. Yet these themes are tied to emotional states. Also you may reject my idea of redemption, but that's because such ideas are internalized. However, I have yet to meet any sizable number of people who think redemption entails throwing up your hands and declaring yourself redeemed, which is essentially what the Orcs did.

I want to sleep now, but I really want to reiterate that you chopped up my post into really small quotes so they could be easy for you to pick apart. Mean trolling a whimsy troll, I'm not even made angry by trolling anymore. It just makes me tired. Lets look at a highlight reel:

Originally Posted by maurdakar

Its frustrating.

Why?

-Um. This is explained. I explained throughout the post many times what I was frustrated with.

Originally Posted by maurdakar

This is a logical fallacy

There is no logical fallacy to speak of.

-Mhmm. I love how many of these are out of order to further make me seem dumber.

Originally Posted by maurdakar

I'm a little freaked out now.

Likewise.

-Your alright Slag

Originally Posted by maurdakar

he is in the Horde mostly because Sylvanas is hanging a sword over the belfs. What else can they do? They are surrounded by forsaken, they can't even reach the Alliance.

If you know this, then what is hard to understand about the Belves joining the Horde. It makes perfect sense.

-Ya my point is that the reason that was presented earlier (in an out of game story which is an old fan-fic) is kind of overshadowed by what Lor'Themar implies: Racism.

Originally Posted by maurdakar

Thrall would never be this stupid, but Blizzard would be. They were likely worried that unless they portrayed their main characters in their iconic armor sets that the reader would be confused. *sigh*

Or it isn't stupid at all.

-Ya the character-breaking reasoning (which also goes against the scene) which you invent, is much more likely than the common commercial practice of showing characters in one outfit.

Your a barrel of laughs of Slag, I like you. I'll come back to this later.

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Your unfairly picking apart a semi-comedic post.

You're either making points, or you're not. This 'it was just comedy' backdoor you've set up for yourself upon being called on most of your points is disingenuous; though you certainly drop the odd wisecrack here and there, by-and-large you are making substansive (and fallacious) observations. I'd suggest you either man up and counter by rebuttals, or step down and explain the whole thing was satire.

I'm not even sure how to respond, since most of what I was writing was supposed to be nonsensical. Thanks for not completely dismissing me out of hand though? Its like your being a smart ass to a smart ass post. Anyways, you completely ignore the context of most of what I said.

Okay first off...

Or do both, I guess. Seriously, though, you've literally just said your OP was supposed to be nonsensical, then jumped to defending your supposedly nonsensical points. I get the device; I'm just highlighting it in action.

On the issue of context; as you say, much of what you write is nonsensical fluff. Much of what is left over is re-iterations, repetition, and rephrasing of earlier points. You're hardly a concise writer, and any singular quote usually has a context that spans at least an entire paragraph (which itself is entagled with others). Basically were I to attempt to place your quotes in context, I'd be quoting much of your entire post each time. Luckily, your entire post (and all the critical context it holds) is visible just slightly above my own. This context I am supposedly disposing of is only two mousewheels up. Further, as a courtesy, I actually link all of your truncated quotes to their source post; context is a mere click away. You should learn how to manage quote brackets, by the way; later in this post you mangle it to the point it's hard to tell who said what.

People wielding strong arguments rarely argue so evasively. So far you haven't actually staged any counter-rebuttals; rather you've complained that I'm responding seriously to a nonsensical post (which you then proceed to defend) and taking your (nonsensical?) quotes out of critical context.

Okay first off... with Garrosh. When countries being led by autocrats have fallen, they have always suffered severe penalties, such as de-militarization or trade tariffs, usually as a punishment.
The Horde isn't falling, it's going through an internal power shuffle. The Alliance will be in no position to impose punitive measure of the variety you speak of considering the Horde War machine is still fully mobilised and active. Look to Russia, it went from empire, to leninist state, to stalinist state, to perestroika communism, to multiparty democracy all whilst being a rival of major world powers, all without undergoing demilitarisation- because the entire time up until now, they have been a formidible military power. The power shuffles at the top don't matter all too much if there are still throngs of soldiers ready to die for the motherland.

The Alliance de-militarising the Horde would make no sense at all.

The idea that Garrosh is pulling all of this off and the blame is entirely upon him is so nonsensical I don't even know how to respond.
It makes perfect sense. Understand that blame and responsibility are two different things. Perhaps Garrosh wasn't solely responsible for the events contibuting to his demise; but he has taken all the blame. This is how scapegoating works. When the progressive pro-market Deng Xiao Ping successfully wrenched power of the hardline leftist Gang of four (after decades of personal risk and ostracisation) the tens of million of deaths the hardline maoist entire administration had caused was blamed upon the gang of four, thousands of bureaucrats repositioned their alliegances, and China became the powerhouse corporate police state it is today. Were every leftist to have been held accountable for the failure of agrarian communism, then hundreds of millions of people would have gone to jail as political prisoners. Instead, in the real world of pragmatic nation building, just the ringleaders were ousted (usually placed under house arrest), and everyone else given the chance to shift footing as China changed directions.

Nonsense really freezes up your momentum, doesn't it? First you didn't know how to respond to my responding to your own nonsense, now you don't know how to respond to what you perceive as my nonsense. Here's a tip when encountering nonsense; rather than explaining you don't know how to respond, highlight the nonsense and explain why it is nonsensical.

You don't really try to argue against my point about Orc culture. The point was this a preemptive complaint, because we know once again the Horde is going to have done something horrid and will likely suffer little to no consequences.
Orc culture is rather violent and aggressive; what of it? The same could be said of Dwarf culture; this period of peace and unity is very much the exception, not the rule of dwarf politics (and I should imagine the accession of a half-Dark Iron by the name of Dagran Thaurissan II would be a huge risk to this brief peace dwarfkind enjoys).

There's more to the Horde than just Orcs; there's more than just one aspect to Orc culture. That said, I agree in spirit with what you're saying, but not in reasoning. After this power shuffle is complete, the Horde likely engage in more provocative and harmful actions at the expense of the alliance. I don't think it is due to Orc culture, though; nor do I point the finger at Forsaken sociopathy, or Blood Elven vengefulness. Rather it is because the Horde is the faction of the unwashed, the undesired, the hounded, oppressed, and outcast. The Alliance will never tolerate them, and to any sound-minded member of the Horde it is clear that a lasting peace is out of the question. As Niccolo Machiavelli put it "There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others." Total war is the most attractive option for the Horde- frankly they've had their kid-gloves on this entire time, as far as I'm concerned.

The Orc commander is a bastard, um, thank you for going into detail as to why he is.
I don't think there is anything particularly bastardly in fighting for self preservation. Should he lower his axe and accept Orckind's slow death by manner of slavery, execution, exile, and starvation? You have quite a bit of difficulty in seeing things from different perspectives, it seems. Whilst the Human is justified to fight without mercy against the brutal Orc invaders who invaded his land, the Orc is just as justified to fight for his life and a place to live freely. There is no morally objective right and wrong, both can be noble. Was every human of Alterac evil, or did Lawful Good Paladins of Alterac die nobly in battle fighting Lawful Good Paladins of Lordaeron?
We should also also clarify the Satan thing. Back in WC1 Orcs and Humans it was largely implied (if not outright stated) I believe that the Orcs were allied with the devil, and the humans represented the good christian Europeans.
No it wasn't- it was clearly fantasy. The 'good christian Europeans' had magic-casting clerics and conjurers. Really it was clearly just drawing on mainstream fantasy; Clerics are not a fixture of Christianity, as holy pseudo-mediavel caster/healers they are clearly drawn from Dungeons and Dragons (who in turn, building this class some 40 years ago wanted a character class who fought with the blessing of holy power, usually in the name of some fantastical LG god- making homage to Christianity).

As for Orcs fighting with the devil, that is never outright stated, or even implied. The Orcs of Warcraft Orcs and Humans came from a barren world which they had completely and utterly razed from generations of warfare. A portal appeared (because of Medivh) and they went through it. The had Warlocks and necromancers, and could summon 'daemons'- though there were never any allusions that these guys were somehow judeo-christian demons. Again, they were drawing heavily on mainstream fantasy, particularly D&D, who some 40 years ago set a lot of trends concocting christian inspired layouts, populations, and lords of hell.

If it was vague in detail in Warcraft Orcs and Humans, Warcraft 2 blows all ambiguity right out of the water- further expounding the idea that Warcraft was drawing not on Christian Europe, but mainstream fantasy (with the inclusion of elves, gnomes, dwarves, mages, death Knights, ogre-magi, goblins, trolls, and vast exapnsion of lore detailing characters such as Kil'jaeden, and Sargeras).

I'd suggest it was pretty obvious with Clerics, Conjurers, Orcs, Ogres, Necromancers, Daemons and Warlocks. I guess if you didn't know much about fantasy and RPGs it's possible you might've missed all these elements and only spotted the Church.

None of the Warcraft lore had really been thought up at that point so I was basically making a reference to that,

Again, incorrect, Warcraft Orcs and Humans came with a respectable amount of lore for a pretty bog-standard RTS. Characters such as Llane Wrynn, Medivh, Garona, the Shadow council, and Blackhand all featured in the story; even Varian Wrynn features (though not by name, it mentions a son was born to Llane).

you mistake this wink and nudge as me (an Atheist) being a hard line Christian.

No, I said it made you come off unflatteringly; either as a whacko christian, or a hyperbolic fanboy. It was a deliberate false dichotomy pointing to the latter option.

Wait. Do you know much about WoW Lore or is this all reflexive.

I should ask the same question; you actually suggested there might have been explicit references to Satan in Warcraft. Seriously?

Also yes Orcs confirmed to rape, unless your going to argue that they were hella into breeding programs and raping Draenei, but didn't do the same to humans?
This is the part where you point me to an example which demonstrates an "orgy of muder and rape".
I mean since it is outright stated that Gul'Dan's Horde is raping Draenei all over the place
Where?
I just assumed...
Oh I see.
(For allying with Satan, comitting genocide against their species and burning down their city in an orgy of murder and rape <- confirmed)
Confirmed, you wrote, right? So were you lying, or did you just forget where it was "Confirmed"?
Now about the slavery thing. You argue that Stormwind and Lorderan were really tight, which they were. That doesn't reinforce your own argument though.
My argument that Stormwind and Lordaeron were tight was to dispel your assertion that the Horde is racist for pinning the crimes of one human kingdom (Lordaeron) against all humans. I was demonstrating that being upset at Stormwind for things done by Lordaeron isn't that unreasonable.
One, the Orcs were enslaved IN Lorderan and rebuilt Lorderan, while even Stormwind had to fall back on swindling the masons guild to get their city out of of disrepair.
You do know Stormwind was rebuilt before the 2nd war, right? I just played Warcraft II last week and thoroughly enjoyed storming 'New Stormwind' in search of the book of Medivh.
Two, my point was that the Orcs never realize or make any mention that the Forsaken are the people of Lorderan. If Lorderan was as tight with Stormwind, which it was, you'd think the Orcs would have even deeper qualms with them, but no where is it mentioned by any of them.
Most of the different Orc clans fought against each other at some point; As Garrosh Hellscream says when you click him "You will serve the Horde, or be crushed beneath it". The Forsaken of Lordaeron serve the Horde now. Moreover, the fact that they are ex-scourge kind of distracts from the fact that they are ex-alliance. Many in the Horde do have a problem with that. Also, the fact that the Blood Elves have joined the Horde as former members of the alliance (and enemies) shows that the Horde doesn't really have as much a problem with the Alliance (per se) as you think. They remind me a bit of the Persian empire, whod've happily poured development and money into Greece, and deployed it's people in battle, had they had succeeded in conquering it. Just like the Romans actually did.
As for the slavery thing, well Thrall is always on about it in the books, he even mentions it directly thrice in game during Cataclysm.
Three whole times?!
If you were counting as you leveled (which I did) it comes up pretty often.
Wait, you counted the mentions of slavery as you levelled? Seriously? How many times did it come up?
My point is the Orcs are still awfully sore about it, but their rage is directed against the Stormwinders, which doesn't make sense.
I don't think it really is; not specifically anyhow. Slavery did impact the Orcs quite deeply, because as such a dominant culture it shattered everything they prided themselves on. Similarly, the Romans considered slavery to be worse than death. I've never heard Stormwind being accused of enslaving the Orcs. Rather, when Orcs cite slavery in reference to their ongoing struggle with the Alliance, it is most often in restrospection of where they've come from and where they won't stand to be again. Last time the Orcs lost to the Alliance, they were enslaved and scattered. I think it's sensible enough that fear of slavery motivates them to fight the Alliance.
I think your missing the point here. It isn't about me saying: "The Forsaken and Orcs should be fighting!" Its that if Blizzard had a better handled on their lore they could add just a few throw away lines or even some quest text to explain this. Well they can't now, not at this point. Its not about me thinking the Horde should be a mess of in-fighting, its that this could be corrected. You really seem to have taken this as a personal attack against yourself or the integrity of the Horde when its more of a "calling out" Blizzard on an increasingly fractured story.
Nope, not personally offended; I just disagree that the Forsaken/Lordaerani thing is a big deal. The Horde is mostly made up of former enemies. The Amani hate the Darkspear (and most other tribes of troll) yet the Amani used to be in the Horde (some still are), why is this not a big deal? Isn't this a huge lore oversight? Wait, Amani in the Horde (Revantusk) along side Blood Elves?! ZOMG lorefail!

The Horde is a force of vastly different cultures that are all fashioned into a weapon of singular purpose by the uncompromising requisite that you either serve the Horde, or are its enemy. Many of the different members of the Horde have been enemies of each other in the past. This is the benefit of a militaristic and authoritarian regime. You can rapidly incorporate new groups and enforce harmony faster than any consensual process ever could. This is how Ghengis Khan united the bickering Horse tribes of the Mongolian steppes. It is how people who had been killing each other for thousands of years in the Balkan peninsula had peace under the regime of Tito's Yugoslavia.

While we're on the topic of Thrall, I mentioned the Doomhammer armor thing. You come up with a cockney argument about how Thrall could be using it as a subtle threat. Thrall is never portrayed in this manner, and in the scene in the comics I'm mentioning is not pushing the whole "don't mess with us", idea, he has Garrosh beside him to do that. Instead Thrall is vehemently arguing that the orcs have changed. While wearing a glaring reminder of the old horde. So you concocting some subliminal character-breaking theory, is a lot less likely then what I argued: That Blizzard insists the main characters always wear their iconic gear due to business concerns.

Thrall also shows indifference when told the Horde is going back to the old Horde. Um, I explained that this is bad because we need to sympathize with him as a protagonist, but I thought it went without saying that it was massively character breaking for the peace loving, orc-jesus to shrug of the mention that his people are turning sour and in danger.

I think you misunderstand Thrall's character. If he keeps doing these things, over and over, perhaps it is a part of his character. He likes the primal Mag-har strength exhibited by Garrosh; he put Garrosh in charge of the Horde knowing how he was; he wears the armour of a legendarily violent and successful Orc hero; He turned a blind eye to the direction Garrosh was taking the Horde even when Vol'jin spoke to him about it threatening to leave. Garrosh's brutishness in Northrend won him the position of Warchief.

All great characters must have an element of contradiction. Thrall is peaceful; but there is clearly a part of him that yearns for the natural, primal aggression Garrosh exhibits. The Mag'har are warlike, but uncorrupted, there is a purity to their kind of violence. I believe it is not so much violence that he appreciates in Garrosh, but more so his unadulterated Orcishness. This clashes with his other great passion, which is peace.

Good characters have contradictory elements; writing 101.

You actually try to debate the "One week to sail across to Kalimdor" thing.

No, I purposefully stepped around that one and addressed the ancilliary points.

Wait, the elves had the most ships? Hang on, DO you know much about lore? Or are we trolling one another? :D
In Warcraft Orcs and Humans there were no ships. In Warcraft 2 the Alliance didn't have a navy until the Elves built them one. Elves then built the vast majority of the Alliance's fleet, with Humans building battleships later. In Warcraft 3 there were no naval units again. In World of Warcraft Elves were no longer in the Alliance and the Human Battleships as depicted in Warcraft II are all the Alliance seem to have left. WoW still evidences Elves as being naval powers too- The Sunreavers brought a fleet of ships to Northrend in WotLK, Elven ships from the 2nd war can be seen wrecked on the coast south of Stormwind, you see some moored in Eversong and Quel'danas. Elves being a naval power also matches the whole idea of a mass naval exodus of the Highborne from Kalimdor to the Eastern Kingdoms. Even Night Elves exhibit a seafaring culture, with plenty of great ships to be seen. Judging by the similarity of their ship designs, it's likely the High/Blood elves inherited their penchant for seafaring from the Kal'dorei.

If you look at the Humans of Orc vs Humans, they're pretty feudal; nowhere near as advanced as the Humans of WoW today. I am suggesting that the Humans never had the "centuries of naval domination" you speak of, with which to find Kalimdor. The only confirmed naval powers of that time were the elves, who knew well where Kalimdor was.

Um. I'm not sure if this is entirely canonical since it came from an RPG book. (Those were all disavowed right?) But it is canon that Kul-Tiras has had an enormous, and extremely powerful merchant and military fleet for centuries.
Where are you getting the centuries part from? Kul Tiras was a human naval power of the Alliance- but there's no indication that they have been so for centuries that I know of. Yes, the RPG books aren't canon as per the word of god (Metzen).
So my point is it doesn't make any sense that the humans never discovered Kalimdor if it takes ONE WEEK to sail there. Not only does it take a week to sail there in the Tides of War book, but this is consistent with the travel time in the comics and other novels.

Again I look forward to you inventing something but I'm balancing this against the idea that; "Blizzard hired on a lore team that hasn't read the history in depth."

It's not that unreasonable at all, particularly if you consider advanced sailing technology and what seems to be the fact that it was only introduced to Humans in the 2nd war (within the lifetime of the current King of Stormwind). In the real world, the Greek and Roman empires had naval capacities for over 1000 years between the two of them and never made any great sea voyages. It's because the ships weren't sophisticated or strong enough to form a blue-water naval capacity. The elves had this technology by necessity (lest they never be in the EK in the first place, but the Humans din't get it off them because the elves were rather reclusive. It wasn't until they were forced into an alliance together that Humans began to build proper seaworthy sailships.

It makes perfect sense. Europe had little clue what was beyond their doorstep during the feudal middle ages too (beyond the fantastical tales of travellers). Then they built sailships, and suddenly they'd charted half the world in a generation, and progressed from feudal states into colonial empires.

The Forsaken are basically just plain bad at this point. Yet somehow the rest of the Horde gets to be allied with them (and fight with them, plenty of Orcs in the Gilnean starting zone) and not suffer any moral crisis in the eyes of its player base or fans.
Oh this is easy; it's a game.
Wait you just ceded your whole argument in a manner similar to how I do at the end of my post. Feels like mine was supposed to be semi-comedic while this was unintentional though, was it? To clarify if your backed into a corner where you throw up your hands and say; "It's a game."
Settle down there; I was saying the Horde player base doesn't face a moral crisis having the Forsaken in the Horde is because it's just a game. Actually, if somebody did face a moral crisis because because of the association between two fictional factions- that'd be weird. Really weird.

If you think that invalidates my argument, then I think we're two very different kinds of fan.

Why do you care about any of this anyways? Why are you even in the Lore thread at all?
Because... I like lore?
I also need to add a lot of you quoting me is incredibly short, completely taking single sentences out of context and then skewering them. Was this intentional?
Addressed earlier.
If your going to say the Forsaken respect "free will" then your being awfully technical about it. It should really be re-written to "Do not use mind control spells."

The Devs say they respect free will, but they totally kill people for no reason other than pure malice and they ressurect them into possibly mindless undead to fight for them and kill their enemies. So then to say: 'They respect free will' seems like it must be a pretty narrow and technical definition of the subject which completely ignores the spirit of such a value, or really any decency at all.

You're getting "respects everyone's rights" and "respects free will" mixed up. Free will is the capacity to decide things for oneself, without fate or some contraint governing/predetermining your actions. In the case of the Forsaken, it has to do with one being subjugated to the will of the scourge- they couldn't think for themselves. So now, it is very important to them that they are independently thinking and deciding individuals. This has no bearing on their respect for the well being, rights, and sovreignty of their neighbours. None at all.
My point about Blizzards idea of redemption, free will and sacrifice in a story is always tied to the idea of pro-action. Which makes sense if your a game company, would be a pretty boring game if the story became less about action and fighting and more about emotions. Yet these themes are tied to emotional states.
Wat?
Also you may reject my idea of redemption, but that's because such ideas are internalized. However, I have yet to meet any sizable number of people who think redemption entails throwing up your hands and declaring yourself redeemed, which is essentially what the Orcs did.
The Orcs gave up a drug which had them hurting lots of other people for a very long time. They turned a new leaf where they would deny themselves this harmful drug, that made them feel great but do terrible things. In rejecting this drug, and starting over, turning their back on their old ways, they had redeemed themselves from their older more harmful lifestyle. They didn't apologise to the last person they harmed, because they've harmed thousands of people and getting their forgiveness is not the point. The point is to move foward in a more healthy manner.

^That, except the drug is demon blood and the last person they harmed was the alliance.

I want to sleep now, but I really want to reiterate that you chopped up my post into really small quotes so they could be easy for you to pick apart. Mean trolling a whimsy troll, I'm not even made angry by trolling anymore. It just makes me tired.
Trolling is for children; polemics is for adults.
Its frustrating.
Why?
-Um. This is explained. I explained throughout the post many times what I was frustrated with.
Perhaps I should have put context in on this one, because now you're taking your own remark out of context.

You said it frustrates you that Horde fans aren't facing a moral crisis by having the forsaken in the Horde. I asked why this would possibly frustrate you.

This is a logical fallacy
There is no logical fallacy to speak of
-Mhmm. I love how many of these are out of order to further make me seem dumber.
Let me jog your memory:
Slavery. Ya this is true. My point is that its totally ignored by the lore team. Orcs were slaves who were forced to rebuild Lorderan after the war. Confirmed. Forsaken are the undead remains of the people of Lorderan. Also confirmed. Orcs are constantly harping on how mad they are at the Stormwind humans, accusing them of being the slavers, also true. (The people they committed genocide against)

This is a logical fallacy and plot hole.

What you said there contained no logical fallacies (or plot holes).

he is in the Horde mostly because Sylvanas is hanging a sword over the belfs. What else can they do? They are surrounded by forsaken, they can't even reach the Alliance.

If you know this, then what is hard to understand about the Belves joining the Horde. It makes perfect sense.

-Ya my point is that the reason that was presented earlier (in an out of game story which is an old fan-fic) is kind of overshadowed by what Lor'Themar implies: Racism.
Because in context, he is reacting to Elves being mistreated by the Kirin Tor in Dalaran; In the past the Elves nearly got exterminated by racist humans with the tacit help of the Kirin Tor. So racism is the reasonable thing that comes to his mind.
Thrall would never be this stupid, but Blizzard would be. They were likely worried that unless they portrayed their main characters in their iconic armor sets that the reader would be confused. *sigh*

Or it isn't stupid at all.

-Ya the character-breaking reasoning (which also goes against the scene) which you invent, is much more likely than the common commercial practice of showing characters in one outfit.
I didn't invent the trend Thrall has for doing stuff like this. Thrall is wearing Doomhammers kit. Thrall did select Garrosh as Warchief, even after hi behaviour in Northrend, and tolerated more of the same once he was Warchief. Thrall named his capital after Orgrim Doomhammer. Thrall invited the dark-voodoo dabbling, warlike, and cannibalistic trolls into the Horde. He accepted the Forsaken into the horde pretty much because he needed them for the war effort.

Thrall also likes to think and talk about peace. But in his actions he is very much an Orc of War. This isn't nonsensical; it makes perfect sense. I didn't invent any of that either, he did all those things. Thrall is a conflicted character who accepts the pragmatic need for military strength, but dreams of peace. His fear that the latter part isn't possible is a defining part of that character.

Your a barrel of laughs of Slag, I like you. I'll come back to this later.
I'm here all night; try the veal.

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Nearly half of your counter arguments are all speculation. Whether its trying to argue how the humans would not have discovered Kalimdor even though its a week away (which in my opinion cements an unreasonable bias), inserting reasons for the Elves to hold these grudges, and verbalize them in nonsensical ways, or conjuring explanations for why the Orcs don't realize that the undead are the Lorderan who enslaved them, I get the impression you missed my point:

It's information we're never told, despite being rather key to the story. Take for example Alexstraza. Alexstraza was kidnapped, and raped by orcs. The Dragonmaw, who are in the Horde now. Seems to me she would be pretty pissed about that whole affair, and mad at the Horde. Or maybe not. See maybe she forgives them. Maybe Alexstraza thinks there are bigger threats facing all life of Azeroth or considers that the Orcs (who helped save Azeroth and thus all life on it from the legion) are redeemed. You could have a quick few touching lines from Alexstraza about how she loves all life, and cares about the Orcs now too despite what the Old Horde did. There are perfectly reasonable explanations like this we can imagine. However this whole event is never mentioned or referenced by Alexstraza.

So an important plot point from the previous games hangs limply, new players lose a chance to learn how Alexstraza and the Horde have evolved. It's more than just a missed opportunity, it feels like white washing WC history to better suit what Blizzard is trying to sell now to Horde (and Alliance) players.

Instead you choose to take this all as a personal attack against the Horde and fixate on defending it, rather than reading it as a larger commentary about the story. I think its my own fault since the post is only half finished, the Alliance and neutral characters are never referenced.

Prove It

You constantly asking my to prove my point. Which I can, but only have the time for a couple right now.

Before I do though, I notice you seem to have a tactful knowledge of the lore when it suits you, which is odd, since your quite demanding when I reference it. Anyways I would expect most people here to be lore hounds.

So about the Orcs raping things. See Garona.

About the orcs working for Satan. See WC1 where the humans constantly mention the devil and how the Orcs are allied with hell.

Denizens of the underworld, these creatures are the most powerful entities to ever exist in the lands of Azeroth. Their aptitude in the arts of deception and combat are only equaled by their sadistic nature, and the puissance they possess in the black arts of magic. They command the searing fires of Hell as if it were their plaything. They are the true lords of chaos, wreaking havoc at every step and destroying what they wish. There is rumored to be a gateway that appears every thirteenth full moon that bridges the gap between Azeroth and the underworld, and it is during these brief moments that the daemons can come to this place. Legend also states that some have the power to summon these creatures and control them, but if this is so, none are alive to tell the tale of how it is accomplished.W1ManH 41
These hellspawn are evil incarnate. The ability to summon these dark minions of the underworld has long been lost, though the Warlocks seek to find those secrets once again. Breathing flame and wielding a blade forged in the fires of Hades, destruction and death are their greatest desire. These daemons possess cruelty beyond the imagining of even the sickest mind, and delight in the execution of their plans. If there is a way to send these monsters back into the pits that spawned them without the loss of many lives, it too is a secret locked away in time.W1ManO 61
This is all from the WC1 manual.

Again i mention the Orcs allying with Satan as a joke. Originally in WC1 the Orcs were allied with Hell. No not the Legion and all that, just hell. This was later retconned, but this is second time I'm iterating the point.

As for the sailing the ocean in a week thing. I actually went back to WC3 to check this.

It took the orcs several weeks to travel west. I assume they didn't have much training so they smashed most of their ships. Later the humans arrive on Kalimdor, and their fine. Both had only verbal instructions to "go west" by Mediv.

So it is canon that the conspicuously absent Kul Tiras did exist for as long as the other human nations (centuries) and did have a huge merchant and war fleet. So they never traveled a week west? The humans of Kul Tiras are stated to be adventurous and always looking for new lands right? The secret technique for navigating the Malestrom, is going around it. Did no one ever think to try that?

You play up this Journey as some epic expedition. The Greeks and the Egytpians sailed the seas you point out. This is true, and they did for months, sometimes years at a time. This isn't some huge quest its a continent a freaking week away. I'm surprised a Gryphon Rider didn't spot it (sarcasm).

This is a logical fallacy because its difficult to believe! Impossible even. Any reason you can give is again, invented, by you. It isn't something explained by the Lore and that's my point.

As for the slavery thing, well Thrall is always on about it in the books, he even mentions it directly thrice in game during Cataclysm.

Three whole times?!

Well maybe you're a little fun. yes the Orcs mention slavery quite a bit, no I didn't count but it depends largely on which zones you quest in. When it is brought up it is explicitly in reference to the Alliance, and how they are mad at them? The context heavily implies, and in some cases outright says the Orcs are peeved at the existing human forces for the whole slavery shin dig. Which I've explained doesn't make sense because we are never told why they wouldn't then be angry at the Belfs or Forsaken. There are plenty of plausible reasons (which are all conjured by you) but the point is it seems like the creators of the Lore aren't aware this should be an issue, that should be brought up, addressed, kept in mind and then moved on from.

For Thrall i think we just disagree on his character. Which is fine. I've never seen him as an impractical guy, just as someone who was eager to exist peacefully with the Alliance. Since he says things which pretty much translate into: "I want to exist peacefully with the alliance."

Seems like a change in wardrobe would be an easy temporary way to communicate this.

Again the reasons you provide aren't totally nonsensical, but I'm balancing them against Blizzards track record of Lore creation and business concerns. You still haven't said anything to sway me to your side, but that may be an opinion thing.

I don't really have a ton of time left for now, so I think I should close by saying.

I have been informed in private that you are the biggest horde apologist of all time and will likely not take a reasonable approach or joking manner about this thread. Seeing as how you will likely continue to dissect this thread and use the cut and paste tactic till we are completely off the rails. Therefore my hat is off to you sir, arguing between us will do nothing as no matter what I say you will only offer chipped apart and questionable counter arguments. In future don't be so quotey, it's rude, and impossible to respond to and favorite tactic of intentional trolls, if you weren't aware. You're not even being any fun about this, it doesn't make me mad, just tired. Can we rip apart the Alliance?

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I agree this thread is stupid. I wanted it to be fun. It's successfully derailed now though.

Hey do you guys have any gripes or inconsistencies that have frustrated you relating to WoW lore?

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My 2 cents cuz it's late so I can't be bothered to think "No, I should just avoid stuff."

WoW's lore has always had plot holes, and huge segments that made no sense to me. (The draenei never made any sense at all to me, they also didn't seem necessary, beyond "We need a race to balance blood elves!".) There are entire parts of stuff we encounter a lot in RP that have never really been fleshed out in lore, and most likely never will be. Doesn't change the fact that I like the game, I like RPing in the game, and I can sometimes enjoy parts of the lore (Especially when they make the Alliance look good... needs to happen more :( )

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WoW's lore has always had plot holes, and huge segments that made no sense to me. (The draenei never made any sense at all to me, they also didn't seem necessary, beyond "We need a race to balance blood elves!".)

Ditto on the spacegoats. And the high/blood elves joining the horde made absolutely no sense to me as well. But, as Uri stated, these are basically quibbles and do not ruin my enjoyment of the game.

Basically, when you have a living, breathing lore machine/MMO, there will be plot holes and lore short-cuts.

And, if Anduin is actually killed, he will be brought back. As I see it anyway.

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I have been informed in private that you are the biggest horde apologist of all time and will likely not take a reasonable approach or joking manner about this thread.

We all have roles to play.
Therefore my hat is off to you sir, arguing between us will do nothing as no matter what I say you will only offer chipped apart and questionable counter arguments.
For a polemicist you have little tolerance for polemics.
In future don't be so quotey, it's rude, and impossible to respond to and favorite tactic of intentional trolls, if you weren't aware.
Proper form is to expand on quote-trees; you have a preference for rambling essays which only vaguely reference what was said and tend to restate themselves. The point of quoting is to highlight a weak (or particular) point of an argument and call it to question- the appropriate response is to quote neglected context and disarm the riposte.

It's not for everyone; though it is a favourite on political forums. Also, it requires a solid command of BBcode.

You're not even being any fun about this, it doesn't make me mad, just tired.
Must I wink at you knowingly every spare sentence for it to be fun? Choose a mantle, don it, and play the part.
Can we rip apart the Alliance?
There's not too much to rip apart. Or praise.
This thread is stupid.
You can excise the stupid from it by pressing ctrl-W.
Is there a TL;DR version?

Maur went fishing with some trollbait, I bit, then he complained I wasn't dignifying his trollbait with gentlemanly debate.

I agree this thread is stupid. I wanted it to be fun. It's successfully derailed now though.
Don't look at me, you wanted to argue about the Horde, I loyally answered the call. You were practically begging Necro to engage you on it; so I thought 'why not? He's written up quite a piece, it's be a waste if nobody takes him on'.
Hey do you guys have any gripes or inconsistencies that have frustrated you relating to WoW lore?
So many. Fresh in my mind; Why in the hell the Knights of the Ebon blade are allowed into the Horde and the Alliance following the half-assed narrative in the starting experience. They were patsies in a failed scourge plot to kill Fordring; and this somehow redeems them. People often call Metzen a one-trick-pony with his penchant for 'corruption' plotlines; but he has a lesser known second trick, broken redemption plotlines.

Filter out everything that isn't a redemption or a corruption plotline, and you have the good bits of warcraft.

Wait, complaining about the story and characters is supposed to be a FUN thing?

It can be cathartic to voice your frustrations and meet agreement (collaborative bitching is soo underrated, and just a worthy of respect as pointless debate, IMO. It's a legitimate skill; building sandcastles of spite in such a way as to accenturate and follow from the turrets of resentment laid by another); or challenging to assert your points against the scrutiny of those who disagree with them. Of course there is the common enjoyment of wordplay in either of those two as well.

WoW's lore has always had plot holes, and huge segments that made no sense to me. (The draenei never made any sense at all to me, they also didn't seem necessary, beyond "We need a race to balance blood elves!".) There are entire parts of stuff we encounter a lot in RP that have never really been fleshed out in lore, and most likely never will be. Doesn't change the fact that I like the game, I like RPing in the game, and I can sometimes enjoy parts of the lore (Especially when they make the Alliance look good... needs to happen more :( )
Agreement on the Draenei; well they should've just had the broken they'd been in lore for a while. As for plot-holes and enjoyment; Warcraft is hit-and-miss; when it does either it does it hard. The ratio isn't good either (probably 70-30 in favour miss); but that 30% of hit is great, and just enough to keep me hopeful that the next serving might be a hit.
Ditto on the spacegoats. And the high/blood elves joining the horde made absolutely no sense to me as well. But, as Uri stated, these are basically quibbles and do not ruin my enjoyment of the game.
Elves in the Horde I saw as a nice twist that fits well and gets better with time. To me, Elves are more Horde than (darkspear) Trolls and Tauren.
Basically, when you have a living, breathing lore machine/MMO, there will be plot holes and lore short-cuts.

I don't envy Blizz in having their first draft perpetually be the final draft. Once it's live it's canon.

And, if Anduin is actually killed, he will be brought back. As I see it anyway.
I daresay he isn't actually going to die. Him secretly surviving an apparent death is just slightly less of a lame silver-age comic book plot than him coming back from the dead.

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