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Slagworth

Quel'thalas and early fascist Italy.

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I like politics. I like WoW lore. Actually the two have a lot in common- there are no clear truths, and arguing about them is ultimately pointless yet nonetheless fun. Anyhow, there are some similarities between WoW politics and RL politics (not surprising, since WoW lore is heavily derivative in almost every regard). I thought'd be fun to make comparison between two of my most favourite political settings in in fantasy and real life.

Silvermoon City- We have a once great kingdom befallen with devastating tragedy and betrayal. You all know what happened, so let me skip forward to now. We have a military Junta in power, a triumvirate of leaders who used to answer to the King. Lor'Themar Theron is a cunning statesman who has declared himself 'Lord-regent' of Silvermoon, instead of simply inheriting Sylvanas' commission as Ranger-General of the Farstriders (Passing off that post instead to Brightwing). I would guess he managed this by virtue of commanding the real military power in Quel'thalas, at a time when much of the Magistry was in Outland. Certainly the Mages have returned, but after the betrayal of Kael'thas, they have lost considerable political capital to contest Theron. Long has power in Silvermoon been a balance between the Farstriders and the Clergy of the Arcane, but there is a new player on the scene: The Blood Knights. As the Farstriders are occupied as the primary military force of Quel'thalas, engaged heavily in the Ghostlands, the Blood Knights seem to have taken the utmost advantage of the Martial law in Silvermoon City, and operate as a kind of paramilitary police, enforcing order and investigating civil crime. Though Lady Liadrin has made no gestures toward the Silvermoon leadership, the Blood Knights are well placed to be a dark horse in the ultimate settlement of Political power in Silvermoon City.

Slvermoon reminds me a lot of fascist Italy. Ultranationalism abounds, a feeling that the old order has failed, as well as an acute optimism and enthusiasm for Quel'Thalas' future- as embodied in a new and widely popular doctrine (fascism, or the light). Through coming together and staying the course, the Blood Elves feel that the dark times may pass, and justice may at last be had. Martial law reigns, and a popular military dictator with defacto total authority stands- though that authority could be challenged. Theron is Mussolini; a charismatic leader and sharp statesman that has manoeuvred himself to the top of a shifting order. Rommath is the closest analogue to King Vittorio-Emmanuele II, though Kael Thas would be better, we know what happened to him. Nonetheless Rommath is the representative of the traditional front of power, magocratic monarchy, yet ill placed to deny Theron's overwhelming popularity, especially after the recent failure of his faction. Still, if popularity turned against Theron, Rommath and the mages would be perfectly placed to oust him (as the Italian King vetoed Mussolini's leadership all too late in WWII).

The Blood Knights remind me in most ways of the Blackshirts. A zealous, armed, new organisation dedicated to an unprecedented ideal. They march proudly through society as role models of Silvermoon's 'new way', confident that they are the bearers of the future. The Alliance, and High Elves, are a bit like communists- demonised widely throughout society. At times this is justified, at times it is for political capital. Though many blood elves feel done poorly, or even betrayed, by the Alliance, it is my guess that the conviction of their current hatred toward it is born of an aggressive propaganda campaign. Upon coming back to Azeroth, the Sin'dorei had to pick a side- geopolitically, the Horde made sense. Further, their last dealings with the old alliance were less than pleasant. But it isn't enought to calmly pick a side. One must Galvanise this choice with burning conviction- the Elves needed spirit, camaraderie in the Horde, and a clear enemy to focus their discontent towards. In this regard the Alliance is a bit like communists in fascist Italy (Communists aren't great, but at that time, they hadn't done lots of terrible things, especially not in Italy).

I would like to see Silvermoon go one of two ways. Either they continue down the road to fascism and Lor Themar solidifies his position as dictator and Quel'thalas tightens into a properly fascist regime, or Lor'themar loses momentum, and the knives come out. Each subfaction of Silvermoon vying for power, peace held tenuously behind a paper thin veneer of civility, threatening at any moment to break out into civil war. This would make the situation very similar to the period of the first and second triumvirates in ancient Rome. Were I writing the bloody thing, I'd have it unfold in the reverse direction- from a monarchy to a republic. How cool would that be? The Silvermoon Senate- established as a compromise between powers in a post-Sunstrider Silvermoon. Yet another thing for the Blood Elves to feel superior about.

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http://www.wowpedia.org/Lor%27themar_Theron

Defacto faction leader of the Blood Elves. Back before the scourge hit he was Sylvanas Windrunner's second in command when she was Ranger General of the Farstriders. She died and became scourge then forsaken. Theron was left in charge of Quel'thalas when King Kael'thas went on his adventure to outland, and later, crazyland. Now he's 'Lord-regent' of Silvermoon (A title I'm pretty sure he didn't have when Kael'thas was in charge), *not* Ranger General of the farstriders (who is Halduron Brightwing, presumably the guy who was under him in the Farstriders).

Actually the more I look into Theron, to more I can respect him. For thousands of years Quel'thalas has been a magocracy. He convinced Kael'thas to put him, a ranger, in charge of Quel'thalas. Not the Farstriders, but him specifically (otherwise he'dve just been the Ranger General- and not have had to appoint Brightwing underneath him). Sunstrider could just as well have left Rommath or some other High ranking Magister to oversee Quel'thalas in the existing power structure of magistratic dominance. Instead Sunstrider opted to go counter to thousands of years of entrenched magic-dominant politics to put A farstrider in charge (dismantling or subordinating the magocratic institutions for him in doing so).

Next, once Kael'thas went crazy and betrayed Silvermoon, Theron survived the scandal- even though he was hand picked and appointed by the mad traitor King. That'd be like Biden taking over as president if Obama was ousted for trying to Nuke Texas. Somehow Theron managed to dodge the fallout and stand in the eyes of the people as the good guy- not tainted by Sunstrider's disgraced rule.

Since then he's survived the return of the Silvermoon old guard of mages (who are very used to being in power) and the rise of the Blood Knights. We don't know how secure his grasp on power is, but he's still on the Eastern Kingdoms loading screen. By all indications he is a political mastermind.

At the close of the third war he was the second-in-command of a shattered force, of a shattered country, some of which had jumped ship to be come High Elves, others to follow the King to Outland. The Alliance was broken, and it's remnants charging his people with execution, and scourge crawled all over the continent, ultimately claiming his leader, cleaving Silvermoon in half, and despoiling the sunwell. Now he holds office of equivalent defacto power of the King, commanding a rejuvenated force on the rebound, as a member of what appears to be the prevailing one of two world superpowers. Well played, Theron, well played.

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There's nothing really stating that he "convinced" Kael'thas to put him in to power. He was always a high ranking member of the High Elves, second to Sylvanas, as you mentioned. All the pieces of lore regarding Lor'themar's ascendency shows that Kael'thas voluntarily chose him to lead the Azerothian Blood Elves after Kael went to Outland with Rommath and the others. It was an ascendency chosen by their rightful heir to their people, not some secret or silent military coup that Lor'themar committed once the Magisters had largely left the city. Your point regarding him staying in his position after Kael went crazy is irrelevant, he was the Blood Elves' Azerothian leader for years before anyone even had an inkling that Kael was sucking off demons in Outland. The Regent-Lord title did not exist before Lor'themar because, as stated in the Faction Leader Blood Elf story, Kael decreed that King Anasterian would be the last Blood Elf King.

I'm simply going to disagree with your subtle and underlying theory that Lor'themar's rise to power was something that was a backdeal, shady, behind-the-scenes, or some kind of grab of power, akin to Sylvanas'. It wasn't, it was fully sanctioned by Kael'thas, and thus, by extension, Rommath and his magisters, because they did not try to seize power from Lor'themar once Kael sent Rommath and some of the Magisters back to Quel'thalas after venturing in Outland with Illidan. Lor'themar's rule as the leader of the Blood Elves reminds me most like Kalecgos becoming the new Blue Dragon Aspect; both of them did not want the power and sought actively to find anybody else to have it before resigning to their "fate." He specifically mentions that, ""I am the regent lord. Not the king" (In the Shadow of the Sun story), however he does eventually recognize that he is the ultimate authority in Silvermoon. It is, however, out of desperation and eventually recognition that lack of a leader outweighs his desire not to take the position up.

Finally, and I know you did not mention this in this thread, but I saw you talking about it in the Shoutbox a few days ago: You should not take what is happening in Silvermoon City right now as indication of the Blood Elves' actions and behavior during the current lore, because Silvermoon is trapped in time and was not updated for Cataclysm. The only true Blood Elf lore progression was during the Quel'Delar quest chain when both Alliance and Horde characters are at least allowed in the Sunwell when Lor'themar could have simply denied High Elves the chance to see the renewed Sunwell. Taking anything from Silvermoon as current lore is nonsensical, considering the vast majority of the Blood Elves' actions during Burning Crusade were in an effort to find some power source even remotely similar to the Sunwell that could satiate their arcane cravings.

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I skimmed paragraphs and want to ask what year the Undead Scourge ran rampant through Italy?

While not exactly an "undead scourge" the Plague hit Italy in 1348 according to WikiAnswers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Slagworth REALLY wants the Blood Elves to be Facists.

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There's nothing really stating that he "convinced" Kael'thas to put him in to power.
No there's not, true enough. It was merely speculation. Kael'Thas appointing a delegate leader to Quel'thalas was unprecedented (But I guess so was their predicament), further it it is notable that he picked a farstrider. I suppose the point I was trying to strike at is that there would have been other cantidates for that role- most especially in the political side of the magistry. Instead he chose a military man. Loads of potential explanations, all of them baseless as the next, of course. But yes, I was implying that whosoever won that raffle (of the Prince's favour) might possibly be a savvy politician.
He was always a high ranking member of the High Elves, second to Sylvanas, as you mentioned.
There would have been others. There would have been higher ranking career politicians, in fact.
All the pieces of lore regarding Lor'themar's ascendency shows that Kael'thas voluntarily chose him to lead the Azerothian Blood Elves after Kael went to Outland with Rommath and the others.
I agree.
It was an ascendency chosen by their rightful heir to their people, not some secret or silent military coup that Lor'themar committed once the Magisters had largely left the city.
That wasn't my meaning at all. The closest thing was that after the extinguishing of the royal line- the monarchic system of Quel'thalas faced a power vacuum. There would doubtless have been uncertainty in the format of new leadership- Lor'themar's government was far from confirmed, especially when it was appointed by a disgraced prince. Nowhere did I mention coup. Political manoeuvring; either Theron is good at it, or he very very fortunate.
Your point regarding him staying in his position after Kael went crazy is irrelevant, he was the Blood Elves' Azerothian leader for years before anyone even had an inkling that Kael was sucking off demons in Outland.
I'd say your rebuttal is irrelevant. His staying in position is remarkable considering the downfall of the monarchy, yet the persistence of his royally appointed government. Understandable, reasonable even, but remarkable. If a contstitutional monarchy has a republican revolution, it would be notable if the Prime minister of the constitutional monarchy remained or stood as President in the subsequent regime.
The Regent-Lord title did not exist before Lor'themar because, as stated in the Faction Leader Blood Elf story, Kael decreed that King Anasterian would be the last Blood Elf King.
I... think that the 'regent lord' title didn't exist until Kael'thas was dead. When Lor'themar was administering Quel'thalas during the Kael'thas' time in outland, it isn't said anywhere that he was 'Regent-Lord' then. I posit that he probably wasn't, for lack of any lore stating one way or the other. 'Regent-Lord' isn't the kind of title one would expect a King to bestow upon a delegate caretaker. The name also has a kind of penultimate quality to it. Like England's 'Lord Protector' which briefly replaced the King.
I'm simply going to disagree with your subtle and underlying theory that Lor'themar's rise to power was something that was a backdeal, shady, behind-the-scenes, or some kind of grab of power, akin to Sylvanas'. It wasn't, it was fully sanctioned by Kael'thas, and thus, by extension, Rommath and his magisters, because they did not try to seize power from Lor'themar once Kael sent Rommath and some of the Magisters back to Quel'thalas after venturing in Outland with Illidan.
Whoa whoa whoa. It was fully sanctioned by who? Kael'thas? The traitor King. It doesn't logically follow any of his decrees follow as a matter of course. That's revolution material right there.

I was observing that in the unsure times following the breakdown of the royal throne, any number of outcomes could have followed, and probably by virtue of competence, Theron's government persisted.

Lor'themar's rule as the leader of the Blood Elves reminds me most like Kalecgos becoming the new Blue Dragon Aspect; both of them did not want the power and sought actively to find anybody else to have it before resigning to their "fate." He specifically mentions that, ""I am the regent lord. Not the king" (In the Shadow of the Sun story), however he does eventually recognize that he is the ultimate authority in Silvermoon. It is, however, out of desperation and eventually recognition that lack of a leader outweighs his desire not to take the position up.
Perhaps. It is certainly wise to appear as such. The fact that he is Regent Lord means he is either a lucky fool or a capable politician.
Finally, and I know you did not mention this in this thread, but I saw you talking about it in the Shoutbox a few days ago: You should not take what is happening in Silvermoon City right now as indication of the Blood Elves' actions and behavior during the current lore, because Silvermoon is trapped in time and was not updated for Cataclysm.
I'm referring to the totality. Particularly the politics which are most closely examined in the shadow of the Sun.
The only true Blood Elf lore progression was during the Quel'Delar quest chain when both Alliance and Horde characters are at least allowed in the Sunwell when Lor'themar could have simply denied High Elves the chance to see the renewed Sunwell.
He has a soft spot for the High Elves. I don't think he should, but he feels guilt. As if he were responsible for their impudence and the concequences he laid upon them for it.
Taking anything from Silvermoon as current lore is nonsensical, considering the vast majority of the Blood Elves' actions during Burning Crusade were in an effort to find some power source even remotely similar to the Sunwell that could satiate their arcane cravings.
I disagree. One does not reject lore because it isn't current. It's lore until it gets updated. Could Silvermoon be a very different place now after the events of BC? Possibly. Probably. Is it? We don't know. All we have is how it was, and the presumption that the lore is accurate until updated or corrected. Further, I would posit that to suggest some other interpretation of how things currently are is just as foolish. More so even- at least with presuming they remain the same you are basing one's expectation of actual lore.
I skimmed paragraphs and want to ask what year the Undead Scourge ran rampant through Italy?
While not exactly an "undead scourge" the Plague hit Italy in 1348 according to WikiAnswers.

In context, the analogy to the scourge despoiling Quel'thalas would be the several hundred years of turbulent foreign occupation. In so far as being an immediately prior hardship endured by most Italians. Of course the closer we examine this thing, the less applicable the general analogy will be.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Slagworth REALLY wants the Blood Elves to be Facists.
He does. Or rather, I see so much of it there already, and love the idea, and further would like to seem them explore it further.

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Supreme Chancellor Hellscream supports Prime Minister Lor'thremars forray into Allied...Err, Alliance territory.

Stormwind is going to stay out of the conflict, though the Gnomish Decoders are closer to breaking the Darkspear's Naval code. Meanwhile, the Dwarves are pushing further into the Western parts of the Eastern Kingdoms.

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No there's not, true enough. It was merely speculation. Kael'Thas appointing a delegate leader to Quel'thalas was unprecedented (But I guess so was their predicament), further it it is notable that he picked a farstrider. I suppose the point I was trying to strike at is that there would have been other cantidates for that role- most especially in the political side of the magistry. Instead he chose a military man. Loads of potential explanations, all of them baseless as the next, of course. But yes, I was implying that whosoever won that raffle (of the Prince's favour) might possibly be a savvy politician.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove.

There would have been others. There would have been higher ranking career politicians, in fact.

Like who? Rommath was with Kael'thas in Outland. The only possible other person would be Halduron. And there's no lore stating one way or another why Kael'thas picked who he did, so its pointless to speculate.

I agree. That wasn't my meaning at all. The closest thing was that after the extinguishing of the royal line- the monarchic system of Quel'thalas faced a power vacuum. There would doubtless have been uncertainty in the format of new leadership- Lor'themar's government was far from confirmed, especially when it was appointed by a disgraced prince. Nowhere did I mention coup. Political manoeuvring; either Theron is good at it, or he very very fortunate.

No, if you read the short story or the extended lore, you'd see that both Rommath and Halduron (The only two other Blood Elves even remotely close to holding enough power as Lor'themar did) supported Lor'themar and pushed him into consolidating his power so he could legitimately rule.

I'd say your rebuttal is irrelevant. His staying in position is remarkable considering the downfall of the monarchy, yet the persistence of his royally appointed government. Understandable, reasonable even, but remarkable. If a contstitutional monarchy has a republican revolution, it would be notable if the Prime minister of the constitutional monarchy remained or stood as President in the subsequent regime.

It's not remarkable at all. Kael'thas' appointment was before he went batshit crazy, and nobody had a problem with Lor'themar's regime. I'm going to use the old "This isn't the real world" point here because it applies.

I... think that the 'regent lord' title didn't exist until Kael'thas was dead. When Lor'themar was administering Quel'thalas during the Kael'thas' time in outland, it isn't said anywhere that he was 'Regent-Lord' then. I posit that he probably wasn't, for lack of any lore stating one way or the other. 'Regent-Lord' isn't the kind of title one would expect a King to bestow upon a delegate caretaker. The name also has a kind of penultimate quality to it. Like England's 'Lord Protector' which briefly replaced the King.

Lor'themar was Regent Lord the second Kael'Thas made him one, which was before he left for Outland. The position did not start existing once Kael'thas died, Lor'themar was Regent Lord for years before that.

Whoa whoa whoa. It was fully sanctioned by who? Kael'thas? The traitor King. It doesn't logically follow any of his decrees follow as a matter of course. That's revolution material right there. I was observing that in the unsure times following the breakdown of the royal throne, any number of outcomes could have followed, and probably by virtue of competence, Theron's government persisted.

Not when Lor'themar's government was the one who provided the stability the entire time Kael'thas was gone, before he went crazy. Frankly it seems nonsensical that everyone would suddenly turn around and go "Whoa! He was appointed by Kael'thas, now who has gone insane, and for years he was a good leader, but now he has to GO!"

Perhaps. It is certainly wise to appear as such. The fact that he is Regent Lord means he is either a lucky fool or a capable politician.

This is pure speculation flying right in the face of actual lore.

I'm referring to the totality. Particularly the politics which are most closely examined in the shadow of the Sun. He has a soft spot for the High Elves. I don't think he should, but he feels guilt. As if he were responsible for their impudence and the concequences he laid upon them for it. I disagree. One does not reject lore because it isn't current. It's lore until it gets updated. Could Silvermoon be a very different place now after the events of BC? Possibly. Probably. Is it? We don't know. All we have is how it was, and the presumption that the lore is accurate until updated or corrected. Further, I would posit that to suggest some other interpretation of how things currently are is just as foolish. More so even- at least with presuming they remain the same you are basing one's expectation of actual lore.

When did I ever say we should disregard the old lore? I didn't. I said its foolish to pretend that current Silvermoon is way it is presented in the game, because mechanically it is identical to the end of Burning Crusade. The underlined part is particularly ironic, since you are doing the exact thing you seem to be indicating I am doing.

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Interesting argument. I hate to be a neigh sayer but I doubt Blizzard is making Theron a political mastermind or will come up with any of the awesome ending ideas of Slag.

While we all can admit we are filling in a blank here lets be honest. Blizz doesn't really know how to write a good story, the number of plot holes, missing characters, and loose ends are more numerous than the stars. I guess that's what happens when you employ 50 writers.

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I agree with murkadurk.

I'm not a lore junkie so I totally glossed over the lore argument, I enjoyed reading your comparison, though. I've always thought Belves seemed like fascists, but I hate Belves and I hate fascists, so who knows? Confirmation bias at work!

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Hey all, it's been a crazy week in Amsterdam in all the expected ways. :PAnyhow, here I am, at last.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove.
*pours Ivan a tea* Drink this and chill. I have little to prove, and am merely sharing my enthusiasm for Belf lore, politics, history, and the correlations I see in them.
There would have been others. There would have been higher ranking career politicians, in fact.
Like who? Rommath was with Kael'thas in Outland. The only possible other person would be Halduron. And there's no lore stating one way or another why Kael'thas picked who he did, so its pointless to speculate.
I mean the rest of the government of a ten thousand year old Kingdom that spanned the upper half of the Eastern Kingdoms. I'm assuming it involves more than the half dozen lore characters we've met.
The closest thing was that after the extinguishing of the royal line- the monarchic system of Quel'thalas faced a power vacuum. There would doubtless have been uncertainty in the format of new leadership- Lor'themar's government was far from confirmed, especially when it was appointed by a disgraced prince. Nowhere did I mention coup. Political manoeuvring; either Theron is good at it, or he very very fortunate.
No, if you read the short story or the extended lore, you'd see that both Rommath and Halduron (The only two other Blood Elves even remotely close to holding enough power as Lor'themar did) supported Lor'themar and pushed him into consolidating his power so he could legitimately rule.
I have read the short story. Quel'thalas is bigger than Rommath and Halduron. Moreover it's not that he outpaced potential rivals to power that is remarkable, but that he retained, and even consolidated the basis of his power. We can gather from the fact that his principle rivals to post monarchic power all support him, that he must have something that makes contesting his shaking claim futile (or unwise). My guess? The Farstriders. It's a standing army in Quel'thalas which I presume must be loyal to Theron now that the Monarchy is gone (and I suspect that they might've been loyal to him even when the monarchy still persisted- that would explain his meteoric leap from the military into the highest levels of government).
His staying in position is remarkable considering the downfall of the monarchy, yet the persistence of his royally appointed government. Understandable, reasonable even, but remarkable. If a contstitutional monarchy has a republican revolution, it would be notable if the Prime minister of the constitutional monarchy remained or stood as President in the subsequent regime.
It's not remarkable at all. Kael'thas' appointment was before he went batshit crazy, and nobody had a problem with Lor'themar's regime. I'm going to use the old "This isn't the real world" point here because it applies.
Sooo... you disagree that the personally appointed institutions of a traitor King would be at risk upon discovery of his betrayal... because WoW 'isn't the real world'. Right.

Normally, fiction, and fantasy, is written with a kind of plausibility in mind. Verisimilitude is a key element of great fantasy- the feeling that there is a sense of internal consistency to the events and relationships in the fictional work.

Of course, not all fiction works like this. Religion and myth, for example, utterly disregards the plausibility of it's tales, preferring to either have tales accepted as metaphors, or divinely self-evident doctrine.

I take the 'fiction' approach to Warcraft over the religious one, though; if that is your point.

I... think that the 'regent lord' title didn't exist until Kael'thas was dead. When Lor'themar was administering Quel'thalas during the Kael'thas' time in outland, it isn't said anywhere that he was 'Regent-Lord' then. I posit that he probably wasn't, for lack of any lore stating one way or the other. 'Regent-Lord' isn't the kind of title one would expect a King to bestow upon a delegate caretaker. The name also has a kind of penultimate quality to it. Like England's 'Lord Protector' which briefly replaced the King.
Lor'themar was Regent Lord the second Kael'Thas made him one, which was before he left for Outland. The position did not start existing once Kael'thas died, Lor'themar was Regent Lord for years before that.
I'm going to need to ask you to point me toevidence of that; it just sounds wrong, and I haven't seen anything suggesting as such.

Kael'thas appointed Lor'Themar as leader of Quel'thalas when he left for Outland, this much we know. But 'Lord-Regent' just doesn't strike me as the title a regent would bestow upon a caretaker, a representative. It seems very much to me the title a leader would take in the absence of a Monarch- such as it was after the betrayal and death of Kael'thas.

Still, if indeed Kael'thas did appoint him as 'Lord-Regent' then that is even more remarkable (and fascistic). Even Mussolini had to be content with Prime Minister before he managed to force the King to appoint him as 'il Duce' ('Dux' or 'leader', comparable to 'fuhrer').

Whoa whoa whoa. It was fully sanctioned by who? Kael'thas? The traitor King. It doesn't logically follow any of his decrees follow as a matter of course. That's revolution material right there. I was observing that in the unsure times following the breakdown of the royal throne, any number of outcomes could have followed, and probably by virtue of competence, Theron's government persisted.
Not when Lor'themar's government was the one who provided the stability the entire time Kael'thas was gone, before he went crazy. Frankly it seems nonsensical that everyone would suddenly turn around and go "Whoa! He was appointed by Kael'thas, now who has gone insane, and for years he was a good leader, but now he has to GO!"
If you think so. History disagrees. When a figurehead of a centralised power structure falls, the power structure usually falls with them, good and bad. Chinese Imperial government was one of the most stable, efficient, and long standing bureaucracies in recorded history. When the Imperial Throne was no more the country was plunged into civil war for decades, with regional warlords taking sides broadly between the communist and nationalist forces, (or remaining independent), and tibet seceding entirely. From 1912-1954 China had no stable government. Whether the nationalists or the Communists had won, either way few if any of the prior imperial institutions remained. Both factions radically reshuffled power. In short, following the decay of the Imperial Throne, revolutionaries threw out the entire Imperial government to declare a republic, then fractured and fought itself for forty years.

That's just China. Cromwell's shortlived republican Britain completely replaced the feudal order it replaced. All I have to say about France is 'guillotine'. Russia was one of the most extensive and violent reorganisations of it's time. Basically, it doesn't matter if you're a good bureaucrat and a nuce guy- if the King goes, you tend to go with him, often in a less than pleasant manner.

Perhaps. It is certainly wise to appear as such. The fact that he is Regent Lord means he is either a lucky fool or a capable politician.
This is pure speculation flying right in the face of actual lore.
It is speculation. How does it fly in the face of actual lore? The lore is rather sparse.
One does not reject lore because it isn't current. It's lore until it gets updated. Could Silvermoon be a very different place now after the events of BC? Possibly. Probably. Is it? We don't know. All we have is how it was, and the presumption that the lore is accurate until updated or corrected. Further, I would posit that to suggest some other interpretation of how things currently are is just as foolish. More so even- at least with presuming they remain the same you are basing one's expectation of actual lore.
When did I ever say we should disregard the old lore? I didn't.
In your next sentence [quoe] I said its foolish to pretend that current Silvermoon is way it is presented in the game, because mechanically it is identical to the end of Burning Crusade. So it should be disregarded, then? In game Silvermoon is lore. You posit that it hasn't been updated in a while. So what? Either you mean that it is to be disregarded,or I am not at fault for drawing inferences of Blood Elf society from it's current state.
The underlined part is particularly ironic, since you are doing the exact thing you seem to be indicating I am doing.
It's really not. In that sentence I question your skepticism of the fascistic in game reality of Silvermoon by handwaving it as 'outdated', by pointing out that it seems to suggest some 'updated' alternative. Then I highlight that by drawing inferences from current game content, I am hardly straying from the lore.
Interesting argument. I hate to be a neigh sayer but I doubt Blizzard is making Theron a political mastermind or will come up with any of the awesome ending ideas of Slag.

While we all can admit we are filling in a blank here lets be honest. Blizz doesn't really know how to write a good story, the number of plot holes, missing characters, and loose ends are more numerous than the stars. I guess that's what happens when you employ 50 writers.

Alas it is true. Or rather, they hit gold with one element of an idea or story, then kind of miss the point with it's extension. When they do update Blood Elf lore, I'm sure it will be unimaginative, uninspired, and disappointing.

Still their narrative 'crit rate' isn't too low. There's always the reasonable chance they'll hit a home run. I'd say I like more than I dislike with Warcraft lore, but am ambivalent/unimpressed with the vast majority of it.

I agree with murkadurk.

I'm not a lore junkie so I totally glossed over the lore argument, I enjoyed reading your comparison, though. I've always thought Belves seemed like fascists, but I hate Belves and I hate fascists, so who knows? Confirmation bias at work!

I'm not in a position to evaluate, seeing as I greatly enjoy Belves and fascist history. Maybe also confirmation bias on my part, painting common elements in bold out of a sheer desire to see this juxtaposition played out.
I'd rather they just kill Lor'whatever and just throw Liadrin on the throne.
The one that practically kissed Velen's hooves? No thank you.

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Ugh *rubs forehead*

Just...no point in arguing with you Slagworth. After your Rp posting, I understand where you are coming from now. You like to make up lore where it is "sparse" (Even if it isn't) to what you want. It makes sense with your "let people rp whatever they want" mentality.

I suggest going here:

Lor'themar Theron

All the answers to your questions are there, something I would have figured you read already.

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Ugh *rubs forehead*

Just...no point in arguing with you Slagworth. After your Rp posting, I understand where you are coming from now. You like to make up lore where it is "sparse" (Even if it isn't) to what you want. It makes sense with your "let people rp whatever they want" mentality.

I don't make up lore at all. First paragraph of this thread:

"I thought'd be fun to make comparison between two of my most favourite political settings in in fantasy and real life."

Comparison and speculation, Necro. Nobody is raising arms against the divine sanctity of lore; just cheerfully admiring their favourite bits and discussing what they like about it, and what it reminds them of.

I suggest going here:

Lor'themar Theron

All the answers to your questions are there, something I would have figured you read already.

Yeah got google. Cheers though.

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I'll take the hoof kisser over the guy who bends over for everybody else, especially if the garbage fanon story for Lor'whatever has any truth to it aside from being something that Blizzard decided was a good idea to publish.

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I'll take the hoof kisser over the guy who bends over for everybody else, especially if the garbage fanon story for Lor'whatever has any truth to it aside from being something that Blizzard decided was a good idea to publish.

Tell me about it. This is what I'm saying though. Quel'thalas is dying for a strong leader to capture this fervent nationalism, thirst for reinstatement. If it were to go along fascist lines, it'd be a hero figure, lauded as a saviour, respected as a paragon of elfly virtue. Also with a armed and zealous group behind them.

So, yes, actually, Liadrin would be perfect. She did go soft, or seemingly so, but that doesn't have to be a dealbreaker. Some narrative groundwork would just need to be laid to justify how she might go from "Oh thank you Velen I'm so sorry" to "Die space goats". I'm thinking probably something along the lines of "First and foremost, my people"; that is to say, though the Draenei did the Elves a good turn, Quel'thalas' deliverance is in the Horde, and to have a strong place therein is essential to the security and prospects of her people. That means presenting no questions as to the Blood Elves' commitment or loyalty, and standing strong against the Alliance.

Anyway, what would be cool with Liadrin's ascendency would be growing rumours and discontent regarding Theron's supplicative relationship with Undercity. Ferment that for a bit, then have Liadrin do a double whammy, taking Silvermoon in a bloodless coup, and selling out Sylvannas in a very big way to Orgrimmar- a move that will weaken Undercity politically, and shift focus to Silvermoon as the Horde's most trusted partner in the Eastern Kingdoms.

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Tell me about it. This is what I'm saying though. Quel'thalas is dying for a strong leader to capture this fervent nationalism, thirst for reinstatement. If it were to go along fascist lines, it'd be a hero figure, lauded as a saviour, respected as a paragon of elfly virtue. Also with a armed and zealous group behind them.

So, yes, actually, Liadrin would be perfect. She did go soft, or seemingly so, but that doesn't have to be a dealbreaker. Some narrative groundwork would just need to be laid to justify how she might go from "Oh thank you Velen I'm so sorry" to "Die space goats". I'm thinking probably something along the lines of "First and foremost, my people"; that is to say, though the Draenei did the Elves a good turn, Quel'thalas' deliverance is in the Horde, and to have a strong place therein is essential to the security and prospects of her people. That means presenting no questions as to the Blood Elves' commitment or loyalty, and standing strong against the Alliance.

Anyway, what would be cool with Liadrin's ascendency would be growing rumours and discontent regarding Theron's supplicative relationship with Undercity. Ferment that for a bit, then have Liadrin do a double whammy, taking Silvermoon in a bloodless coup, and selling out Sylvannas in a very big way to Orgrimmar- a move that will weaken Undercity politically, and shift focus to Silvermoon as the Horde's most trusted partner in the Eastern Kingdoms.

I think Liadrin's reversal wouldn't be too hard to hammer out. Keep in mind that in spite of one race's actions towards Sin'dorei redemption, the Sin'dorei are still Horde, and they still fight the Alliance. What irks me is that the Blood Knights were supposed to represent a changing of the guard of a city that's relied on the Farstriders and Magistry for so long. Even now, I still have dreams of a Silvermoon decked out in black and red banners, and Quel'thalas' most powerful woman at the helm.

Also, a little food for thought: remember Velen's convenient little prophecy? Keep in mind that from what we know from Velen's visions is that they are rarely complete pictures, or even fully accurate. Liadrin's story may not be over with the Sunwell's ignition. My hope is that it's only beginning.

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So... this thread is from 2012. But It's really interesting to me. Silvermoon *has* changed a little in BfA, especially with the *literal* changing of the guard, Theron's new and improved skin (which makes him even more regent-lordly) and with Sylvanas even more on the out, Silvermoon is probably looking mighty good to the Horde right about now. Of course, there was that strange business with the Alliance and the Horde banding together against Sylvanas and, I think Undercity's actually gone now, but yeah. What do we all think about this now? 

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