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Necroxis

Destroyed Theramore

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Putting two and two together:

Blizzard said they were giving Mages a glyph to teleport to the crater of Old Dalaran. Now...where could Jaina move an entire tower where it wouldn't be in an odd place (Stormwind is out...unless they rebuild the Park). And where is there a giant crater where a tower could go?

Ta da.

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For her to go 'insane'... Such waste.

I am so sad about Theramore. I know the rumors made me kinda bitter but seeing it like this... I really want to experience this on my main. In game.

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Well it looks like you will. I highly doubt they would add the "after effects" into the game without adding it in an event of some kind.

Not to mention that the files were found under: "Scenario - Theramore" so it's pretty much confirmed it's going to be a Scenario.

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*Rubs hands in glee*

That'll teach them damned Northwatchers. Can we burn down Teldrassil too? Nobody uses it, honest!

Theramore was built before Orgrimmar. How the Orcs managed to convince themselves that all of Kalimdor (Or at least the majority of it) is theirs boggles my mind.

The beginning of the Frozen Throne Orc Bonus Campaign shows that as Thrall and the others are still in the process of building Orgrimmar, Theramore has already been established and completed.

I HOPE that somehow Thrall is involved in this and Jaina tells him off before she retreats. Something about how he is directly responsible for Theramore's destruction and that she is through with the peace negotiations, even if Thrall somehow becomes Warchief again (foreshadow foreshadow). And, you know what? Jaina would be 100% in the right.

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For me, at least, the appeal of the Horde isn't a legitimate claim to existing. It's the Realpolitik insistence upon it.

I'm a history geek, and it's one of the most realistic things in WoW, lore. A union of armed, motivated and allied forces exterting themselves upon a world that would otherwise roll over them. Certainly at the world's expense, and certainly unfair in the terms of how things were before they came. Despite this, this faction feels supremely convicted in the justification of it's cause. Unlike the Alliance, who fight to defend their world- the Horde fights for their place in it. In this regard the Horde is similar to revolutionary USA, Early European republicanism, the axis powers of WWII, communistic uprisings the world over, Israel, and pretty much any other fledgling nationalist movement without mainstream establishment acceptance.

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Yeah I gotcha, haha. I just had my Alliance innerself respond to your Horde innerself :P

Although, I suppose if I was being IC, I'd be more like, "Kill each other all you want, just leave me out of it or I'll roast you alive"

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Yeah I gotcha, haha. I just had my Alliance innerself respond to your Horde innerself :P

I wish, or hope, Blizzard keeps these innerselves in mind for MoP and future expansions. It is the very soul of my enjoyment of either side in the Warcraft Frenchise. The feeling. When I played Alliance in WCII I felt vindicated, like a shining paragon defending all that was good and right. It was noble. I want more of that in MoP. "We fight for what is right."

Horde on the other hand has shifted acceptably from "Burn it all" (tremendously fun at the time) to more sophisticated feeling along the lines of unapologetic, extremist, militarism. "We make what is right."

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I think it would be such poetic justice if Jaina Proudmoore turns out to be the one who strikes the final blow against Garrosh in the Alliance version of the Siege of Orgrimmar.

Imagine:

Orgrimmar is ablaze. The Alliance and Horde are clashing with not only each other, but with Garrosh's own force of Dark Shaman and dark fire elementals. The smell of burning bodies wafts through the air as the Alliance army occupies the central commerce area of Orgrimmar, fighting off Horde trying to reclaim their city, and Garrosh's remaining lieutenants. Varian, Jaina, and a small task force break through and manage to make their way into the Throne Room, killing the Kor'kron Elite guarding the corrupted Warchief. The group battles Garrosh and puts him down. As the bloodied Orc lays battered upon the ground, he continues to spout anti-Alliance and anti-Human sentiments, "Alliance dogs! Your 'victory' was only possible because my own people betrayed me! If the Horde weren't too cowardly to do what needed to be done, you would not have even been able to enter the city. The burning bodies of Theramore are a testament to my might."

The task force remains back, unsure of how to handle the disposal of the corrupted Warchief. Varian steps forward, taking it upon himself as High King of the Alliance to end the Warchief once and for all. As he raises Shalamayne to put an end do it, a forceful palm grasps his shoulderplate and stops him. Before Varian has a chance to turn to look, Jaina Proudmoore walks past the King and closer to the fallen Warchief. She stares down at the monster that destroyed everything she worked for with pure contempt; all pity and remorsefulness burned from her heart as the walls of her city burned. Garrosh's eyes rise to Jaina's form and a cocky smirk forms upon his lips, opening to spout another epithet. But before he can, Jaina speaks, her voice loud, forceful, unfeeling, "This is for Theramore."

She extends her palm, and the fallen body combusts, snuffing out the fire of life left in the body's corrupted core.

I would have the biggest Alliance orgasm if something even remotely similar occurred.

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I didn't get the impression that the tower was teleported away.. I got the impression that the tower itself was the point of impact.. The crater and cracks branching out from it makes me think something very large and very explosive was launched into the tower. Could that be one of the war crimes Garrosh will be committing? I can see that setting Thrall off, but would the rest of the horde care enough about Jaina to turn on their own leader?

Anyway, now you all know how I felt about Southshore.

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I HOPE that somehow Thrall is involved in this and Jaina tells him off before she retreats. Something about how he is directly responsible for Theramore's destruction and that she is through with the peace negotiations, even if Thrall somehow becomes Warchief again (foreshadow foreshadow). And, you know what? Jaina would be 100% in the right.
I think it would be such poetic justice if Jaina Proudmoore turns out to be the one who strikes the final blow against Garrosh in the Alliance version of the Siege of Orgrimmar.

...

I would have the biggest Alliance orgasm if something even remotely similar occurred.

Agreed. SO HARD. It would have Jaina become an active leader, take care of Garrosh, knock Thrall down a peg and be immensely cathartic as well.

But call me cynical - I don't have high hopes.

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What I love most about your proposed scenario from a Horde perspective is it wouldn't have the Horde heroes teaming up with the Alliance heroes to take out Garrosh. That would be so lame, and I truly hope they don't make it a co-operative joint strike. It makes so much more sense that all three forces are hostile.

That is to say, the Horde want's Garrosh out, but in what reality would they invite Varian and his army into their capital to help?! That would be like Chinese communist revolutionaries accepting Japanese help in defeating the nationalist government. Mind blowingly dumb- the only plausible outcome of accepting Alliance military help in the retaking of Orgrimmar is the immediate subjugation of the Horde itself with a permanent occupying force.

I mean, I just can't conceive that a divided Horde would be in a strong enough position to face down an undivided Alliance and tell them to GTFO of Orgrimmar once Garrosh was handled. Conversely, from Varian's perspective, it would be idiotic not to sieze this opportunity. The Horde is weak, and divided, you troops are in Orgrimmar. Why leave? Why? Diplomacy? The Horde just destroyed Theramore. At more than any other point you would have the justification, motivation, and inclination to simply snuff the Horde right then and there. Take out Garrosh, then take out Thrall and his army too. Take the entire peninsula of Durotar, send the Trolls packing back to Stranglethorn. From there, you strike the strategically weak and isolated Forsaken forces in the east and retake Lordaeron. Sylvannas isn't going to let up easily, and doesn't have the logistical liabilities that face living forces under siege. She could theoretically hold out forever. That's when you approach the Blood Elves. Offer them full amnesty, an final escape from the tailspinning horde, with very reasonable post-war terms (maybe a mild level of SW oversight, but a timeline to Quel'thalassian autonomy). In return they must betray the Forsaken. Even the alliance must know that despite their strategic and diplomatic cloness in Horde politics, Silvermoon and Undercity don't trust each other at all. Indeed, the Blood Elves might even be relieved at this chance. Obviously SW would have to disavow Garithos and the war crimes of the Lordaeron post-scourge remnants, but frankly the Alliance has a commanding upper hand.

If you really wanted to speed things up, approach the Goblins and the Tauren too. Explain to the Goblins that you understand it was mainly business for them, and 'reasonable' reparations from Gallywix's coffers would lubricate them out of the Horde as far as the Alliance is concerned when it comes to post-war consequences in an Alliance dominated Azeroth. Not only would the Alliance get a boat load of gold, you would also likely see a collapse in whatever remains of Horde finance, and logistical infrastructure.

As for the Tauren, you could approach them to turn against the remaining horde, pointing out that they wouldn't be betraying their Orcish and Troll friends (who are already defeated), but merely the 3 races they've never been comfortable with anyhow. Additionally, point out that they are wedged between Draenei and Kal'dorei to the west, and Humans to the east. But cut off from the eastern Kingdoms, they are weak and isolated. You needn't accept anything worse than an unconditional surrender from them. Maybe once the trouble in the east was dealt with, it'd be worth sponsoring a cenarion-tauren takeover of Thunder Bluff.

Whichever of the Goblins or Blood elves are first to accept the Alliance offer, the other will only be more keen to do so. An act of treason against the Forsaken combined with an overwhelming assault of Worgen, Dwarf, Goblin, and Human forces. Even with all the perks of an undead force, and full grade plague, Sylvannas just couldn't resist that kind of assault. Moreover, she would fight to the death, (or flee to Northrend, perhaps). In either case, the Lordaerani forsaken would at last be dead- and so would fall perhaps the greatest threat the Horde posed to the Alliance and Azeroth.

After the war, hopefully the Alliance will have learned a lesson from the past and instead of punishing the Orcs with an untenable situation- offer them an acceptable existence (along terms beneficial to Alliance dominance). The first thing you would do is offer blanket amnesty to all grunts against warcrime trials. Next up, pander to their sense of honor, and give full military funerals and accolades to their fallen heroes. Blame everything on Garrosh, and those that supported him. Allow ordinary Orcs to retroactively alienate themselves from that. Then an act of perceived generousity; give them Durotar. Seriously, it's a desert. The Orcs feel like they get a decent deal, but the Horde loses dominance in the rest of Kalimdor.

The real clincher would be Thrall (who of course isn't dead, as an author surrogate). Offer him to rule over an independent Orcish Durotar, under heavy terms of imposed peace (like how post WWII japan wasn't allowed to have a militarty until a few years ago). At his core Thrall wants peace, Jaina at the very least knows that. Give him the choice between an endless futile orcish resistance against the now unstoppable might of the Alliance, and a very reasonable deal for he and his people to live unmolestered, in peace. He might just take it. If he did, the Orcs probably would have a much easier time swallowing that pill. As I understand it, the Trolls are a pretty small force. You could send them back to stranglethorn and leave them to sort it out with the trolls and pirates there, or you could let them stay in Durotar at the slightly increased risk of a joint Troll/Orc problem in the future.

Of course the hardliners would be pressing simply to banish the Elves and Orcs to outland, obliterate the forsaken, rob the Goblins of all their wealth, and colonise Mulgore with an occupation.

Anyway, wow I can ramble. What a tangent. My point is, it doesn't make sense for the Horde and the Alliance and the Horde to cooperate from either perspective; the battle for Orgrimmar would be a tipping point in the entire Horde/Alliance conflict.

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I kinda just rambled tangentally for a while, stream of thought and all that. It just doesn't make any sense to me to have a co-operative strike. Honestly I think this is what they'll end up doing, though; and then I will be whining here if and when it unfolds that way. A co-operative strike necessitates stupidity on both the Alliance and the Horde's part. Gross, reckless stupidity.

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Jaina elopes with Thrall, Aggra finds out her baby is Garroshes, Thrall is jealous and kills Garrosh, Aggra and Jaina die fighting, and we can finally be free of boring romance lines or random sex scenes in my Scourge lore. kty.

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Slag: I dont think Blizzard ever indicated that it would be a joint operation. Blizzard themselves came out and said that the Siege of Orgrimmar would involve both factions for their own reasons. I think many people got the wrong impression when they were talking about it.

Unless something major happens: It doesn't look like the Alliance and Horde will be teaming up until AT LEAST MoP is OVER. I would wager that it would NOT be a joint operation more than it would. Then there will be some RP scene with Thrall/Vol'jin and Varian/Jaina where somehow he convinces them to leave Orgrimmar.

The Horde's version? Exactly the same but with Thrall and Vol'jin with Vol'jin delivering the killing blow. As the two watch Garrosh's body, that is when Varian and Jaina enter the Throne Room and the same RP scene happens.

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Ima go with the outlandish claim and say Jaina's tower will be floating in one of the new 85-90 zones. If I'm right, I claim full credit. If I'm wrong, I've already stated it's outlandish! Win win...

On a more serious note, GO BACK TO DRAENOR ORCS. You've ruined the peaceful Tauren, you've given the trolls assistance in their evil voodoo rituals, you backed up the Forsaken at the Arathi Highlands for so long that now they're a major power and are focused on humanity, and you gave the silly blood elves purpose! Pat yourselves on the backs, you've officially ruined Azeroth for us nice Alliance races. Sorry, my Alliance innerself is really loud sometimes.

... On an ACTUAL serious note, I look forward to seeing the waves that destroying Theramore creates for the Horde. I'm betting on it being one of the reasons Thrall decides Garrosh can't be warchief anymore.

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Slag: I dont think Blizzard ever indicated that it would be a joint operation. Blizzard themselves came out and said that the Siege of Orgrimmar would involve both factions for their own reasons. I think many people got the wrong impression when they were talking about it.

Unless something major happens: It doesn't look like the Alliance and Horde will be teaming up until AT LEAST MoP is OVER. I would wager that it would NOT be a joint operation more than it would. Then there will be some RP scene with Thrall/Vol'jin and Varian/Jaina where somehow he convinces them to leave Orgrimmar.

The Horde's version? Exactly the same but with Thrall and Vol'jin with Vol'jin delivering the killing blow. As the two watch Garrosh's body, that is when Varian and Jaina enter the Throne Room and the same RP scene happens.

I hope so. It certainly would be more reasonable. As for who should do the deed- hard to say. Vol'jin promised it would be him. Thrall would be fitting, seeing as he'll likely be the one to retake the chair. Jaina makes sense if they intend on having her go badass (I think I heard that somewhere) plus she would have the strongest immediate desire to, Varian makes sense if this is going to serve their goal of instating him as a powerful and respectable character who wins Alliance victories.

Ima go with the outlandish claim and say Jaina's tower will be floating in one of the new 85-90 zones. If I'm right, I claim full credit. If I'm wrong, I've already stated it's outlandish! Win win...
I have vague memory that it might be going to where Dalaran used to be. But I might also be just making that up/remembering wrong.
On a more serious note, GO BACK TO DRAENOR ORCS. You've ruined the peaceful Tauren, you've given the trolls assistance in their evil voodoo rituals, you backed up the Forsaken at the Arathi Highlands for so long that now they're a major power and are focused on humanity, and you gave the silly blood elves purpose! Pat yourselves on the backs, you've officially ruined Azeroth for us nice Alliance races. Sorry, my Alliance innerself is really loud sometimes.
Nah, outland is a fel infested crapwhole on the brink of falling apart. Moreover, As many races that don't want the Orcs in Azeroth welcome them happily. Further, the Horde actually has worked with the Darkspear trolls to put an end to dark voodoo. As for the Forsaken, the Horde have done a very brave thing. There are a people utterly reviled, morally questionable, literally 'forsaken'. Most just want to terminate the lot of them, think of them as mindless scourge and be done with it. But they aren't mindless scourge. They are free individuals, natives to their land, no less. Certainly they bear a terrible curse, but suggesting the wholesale execution of them is in principle no different than suggesting the total genocide of all humans. In a very risky move of moral fortitude, Thrall took them in- because they are people. Maybe it is his hope that they aren't truly 'forsaken', that perhaps he might save them from the oblivion that once chewed at the souls of his own people. Of course it is easier not to think about it, obliterate them, and pretend they never happened. As for the blood elves, they are a similar case. The Horde took them in when everyone else had turned them away, when they were desperate and facing extinction. Was it because the Orcs have a soft spot for the redemption of corrupted races, or because they benefited strategically from these arrangements? Who can say? Maybe both. In either case, these races would have been doomed if not for the Horde; the protectors of the reviled, the wretched, the downtrodden, and the shunned.

My innerhorde invaded my psyche and declared itself an armed autonomous force with as much right to my brain as the existing reason that ruled there.

... On an ACTUAL serious note, I look forward to seeing the waves that destroying Theramore creates for the Horde. I'm betting on it being one of the reasons Thrall decides Garrosh can't be warchief anymore.
Rather a shame, but at least we will get a whole xpac worth of raging Horde total war. Maybe if I'm lucky, Sylvanas will start getting too powerful and hard to control in the subsequent xpac, forcing Thrall to turn a blind eye like Garrosh did, or face her.

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I'll put my two cents in later when my head is a less of a mess from allergy medicine!

But in regards to the video, I think my heart actually dropped seeing it. So sad!

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Well, total genoicide of all humans is kinda what the Forsaken want. And in all honesty, I don't think the past expac has really helped the whole "Races who want the Horde in Azeroth" category. Garrosh is kinda a dick. I'm sure the Forsaken chafe under the Orc's rule, the trolls are being treated like second class citizens, and the tauren really shouldn't be over the death of their chieftan yet. I feel like they took Garrosh's word that it 'wasn't his fault his weapon got poisoned' way too easily. As for the blood elves... well they're as unimportant as Draenei have been since Wrath.

I agree that in the beginning without Thrall the other races of the Horde would most likely have died off. Of course, I don't see that as a bad thing like you do.

Uri, you basically repeated what Necro and I said. No credit for you!

And no to this, cuz Necro said he thought it moved to Dalaran's crater. You said you thought it blew up. I believe it moved to one of the new MoP zones, like Dalaran di for Wotlk.

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