Joewaldren

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Gameplay>Lore is good, IMO.

If Lore>Gameplay you get Oblivion. A giant empty world of samey shit and repetitive play with incredibly detailed history written into 20 page books and unwarranted NPC dialogues.

It just doesn't do the lore any justice if it isn't presented with a level of craftsmanship. If that means Lore has to shuffle over an inch to accommodate engaging play, I'm happy to yield. Otherwise Im playing an unfun game full of lore I'll never enjoy due to getting bored and putting the game down.

In your specific case, Alth, consider the DK. There is a perfect example of Blizzard squeezing existing DK lore into a new and engaging play style. Sure it didn't really fit the existing lore, but they just wrote new lore. Good new lore. Plus the original stuff is still in tact, if not actively portrayed anymore. /mytwocents

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Ah well, no LFG support for warlock tanking. Oh well. *shrug* If blizzard had wanted to do it, they wouldve been able to make sense, but they don't, so no harm no foul. Still going demo anyway for DPS! And I'm stoked that Belpep can finally be the hellfire imp Ive always seen him as in my head ^3^.

SO, is anyone here in the beta able to provide some images of the Minipet Battle UI yet? Maybe some initial impressions? Or is it not active yet.

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SO, is anyone here in the beta able to provide some images of the Minipet Battle UI yet? Maybe some initial impressions? Or is it not active yet.

Its not available yet, unless I am seriously missing something.

*cough*rogues*cough*

Rogues are not irrational hatred. It's rational hatred. Something Blizzard has agreed with multiple times on the forums and at Blizzcon: Warlocks are particularly weak against Rogues.

Tanking' is a gameplay mechanic. It shouldn't guide narrative. What class was Illidan, for example? What about archimonde? Troll axethrowers in WCII were ranged attackers who used thrown weapons, vulnerable to melee, and had no pets. What class were they?

Illidan was a Demon Hunter. Metamorphosis was a Demon Hunter ability LONG before they gave it to Warlocks. It wasn't even in the game until...Burning Crusade, I think?

Archimonde doesn't count because he's basically a God/Demigod in the Warcraft Lore. If you want a better example, look at Gul'dan/Ner'zhul, or even just the regular Warlocks of the Orcs in Warcraft 3 in the mission with Grom drinking the blood.

The Axethrowers were...axethrowers. You don't have to put them into World of Warcraft's classes. Tyrande isn't a Hunter or a Priestess. She's a Priestess of the Moon. Same with nearly every other major lore character. I used Ner'zhul and Gul'dan because they didn't break the "Hey, I'm a major lore character, I'm essentially a god at everything" role that most of WoW's major characters are.

The second idea is build a custom system, a unique and fresh approach to tanking. I quite like the idea of involving the link between warlock and minion, probably in the form of HP management. The big concern is that certain CCs like fear, and potent DPS would be OP. Accordingly, you would firstly activate a 'presence' which redirects Intellect and Spirit away from offensive spells, at least to a certain extent, probably enhancing demon armour. As for fearing and kiting as a tank... I think the easiest solution is to have the essential HP management involved in minion-link tanking cost vast amounts of mana. Kind of like the rate energy/focus/rage is expended on non casting classes. Further, have the tanking presences triple (or whatever) regular spells. Finally, counterbalance this brutal mana loss with the ability to suck substantial amounts of mana from the souls of melee range enemies (also putting a minor debuff on them too). The end result would be casting offensive/utility spells would come at the expense of precious scarce mana required for tanking. Casting fear would be counter-intuitive to mana regen.

This whole paragraph is well and good, but Blizzard themselves have come out and said that the would essentially have to rebuild the Warlock Demonology spec from the ground up (As opposed to just changing features like they are currently doing), as well as create a whole new niche for Warlock tanks that can overlap, but not overshadow, the rest of the tanking specs currently in the game. It wouldn't be a nuanced effort. In fact, they would have to completely remake something. In this sense it is not needed, Monks are becoming tanks, and, according to Blizzard, that will be plenty for those who want to play a tanking role.

As Catilyn said, and something I've also noted, I believe many (But not all) people who play Warlocks and want them to be tanks simply want to be overpowered again (*sighs* BC, I miss you in this regard only). They want to do the incredibly insane dps that we see in the Morchok video while having that 99% damage reduction. I don't. I don't like playing classes or specs that are good because the game has simply tuned it to 11. I want to play on an equal playing field and be better than other people on an equal playing field.

Gameplay>Lore is good, IMO.

If Lore>Gameplay you get Oblivion. A giant empty world of samey shit and repetitive play with incredibly detailed history written into 20 page books and unwarranted NPC dialogues.

It just doesn't do the lore any justice if it isn't presented with a level of craftsmanship. If that means Lore has to shuffle over an inch to accommodate engaging play, I'm happy to yield. Otherwise Im playing an unfun game full of lore I'll never enjoy due to getting bored and putting the game down.

It's honestly not as black and white as you are portraying. By this logic, basically every race should be able to do everything. And while I've wanted to play an Eredar Warlock since they introduced Eredar into the equation, if they simply wriggled their noses and said "Ok, Draenei can be Warlocks now" without explaining anything, then they basically take a huge dump over their lore. There's a fine line to walk between making the lore relevant and supportive to the gameplay, and making it irrelevant and just a superficial feature.

Nobody is arguing that Blizzard cannot change their lore. However, in my personal opinion, the lore of a Warlock in Blizzard's universe simply is not one that is a tanking class. If they wanted to make Warlocks tank and satisfy me? Focus it more around the Voidwalker instead of just having the Voidwalker just be a threat magnet to you. I realize that this opens a can of worms with Warlocks "soloing" relevant content even more, but that is the only way I can satisfy the gameplay and lore balance in my mind.

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Nobody is arguing that Blizzard cannot change their lore. However, in my personal opinion, the lore of a Warlock in Blizzard's universe simply is not one that is a tanking class. If they wanted to make Warlocks tank and satisfy me? Focus it more around the Voidwalker instead of just having the Voidwalker just be a threat magnet to you. I realize that this opens a can of worms with Warlocks "soloing" relevant content even more, but that is the only way I can satisfy the gameplay and lore balance in my mind.
Couldn't have said it better myself really.

It's a nice concept, but with what we see in place today as far as the Warlock class is concerned, it's too impractical.

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You raise a suite of good points. Moreover, I guess it is a moot point because as you say, and I agree, Warlock tanking would require a ground up overhaul of it's very own spec (and possibly the class), and Blizz is just not going to do that. Not soon, and not with MoP on it's hands and a brand new approach to tanking, DPS, and healing on it's hands.

Though I do understand what you mean about the lore presentation of Warlocks, and the balance of gameplay mechanics to lore integrity- I still don't think adding a 'casting mode' that allows a kind of fel siphoning of health for tanking is a huge violation of lore. Or to put it differently, though such a thing hasn't been presented in lore thus far, it doesn't even contradict what is there, retcon anything, or require the reimagination of roles. Like DKs did, for example. But I guess that is a value judgement. The other way to expand the versatility and depth of the already engaging warlock class would be to, as you say, look into the minions themselves. Very easily minions could add a lot more character and spread to Warlock playstyles than they already do.

On a final note, god damn I would love to play an Eredar warlock. As you say though, just allowing Draenei to play them doesn't cut it. What on earth would Eredar be doing in the Alliance? That is a rare note that I will join the lore purists in striking out as 'impossible'. It's a shame, but the introduction of a lot of cool lore things by their very nature requiress respect of these lore-based lines; it is what makes those things cool in the first place. To break those boundaries to include stuff like that not only devalues those things themselves, but the entire premise of the game itself

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This whole paragraph is well and good, but Blizzard themselves have come out and said that the would essentially have to rebuild the Warlock Demonology spec from the ground up (As opposed to just changing features like they are currently doing), as well as create a whole new niche for Warlock tanks that can overlap, but not overshadow, the rest of the tanking specs currently in the game. It wouldn't be a nuanced effort. In fact, they would have to completely remake something. In this sense it is not needed, Monks are becoming tanks, and, according to Blizzard, that will be plenty for those who want to play a tanking role.

Not only would it require a rebuild of the entire Demonolgy spec, but every single boss encounter would need to be able to be tanked by a caster class.

Gameplay>Lore is good, IMO.

I bet you think Draenei Death Knight is a good idea.

I am a "Lore Purist" as you have put it. That aside, do we really need the game to have more tanking options? 11 classes, 5 can tank.

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I bet you think Draenei Death Knight is a good idea.

Uhm. Draenei arrived in BC, yes? Which Precedes WotLK, right?

Or is your concern not of chronology, but the idea that Draenei as a people are quite close to the light in values and form? Considering that the Eredar are basically Fel Draenei, I don't think it's crazy that Arthas commands powerful enough scourge magic to suffuse them instead with unholy energy instead of the light.

Anyhow, I'm actually quite a fan of the Lore, I just don't think it is the be all and end all. Niether does Blizzard, apparently. Lore, just like gameplay and a bunch of other priorities, must be balanced against all the rest in the creation of new content- the ultimate goal not being the lore itself, but the extension of an enjoyable play experience.

Edit:Oh you're steelspark. Right.

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As Catilyn said, and something I've also noted, I believe many (But not all) people who play Warlocks and want them to be tanks simply want to be overpowered again (*sighs* BC, I miss you in this regard only). They want to do the incredibly insane dps that we see in the Morchok video while having that 99% damage reduction. I don't. I don't like playing classes or specs that are good because the game has simply tuned it to 11. I want to play on an equal playing field and be better than other people on an equal playing field.

I wanted to tank so I wouldn't have to wait in the LFG queue so long :[

Does anyone else feel like we've run the Gameplay >/< Lore discussion into the ground though? Or is it just me? :(

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Whelp they just totally destroyed Warlock Tanking with this change:

Metamorphosis: Now transformation grants increased damage dealt by 10%, instead of increased benefit of Demonic Fury.

The increased benefit of Demonic Fury from Mastery was how the mitigation was so high.

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I'm late to the party.

Warlocks were never made, presented, or even implied to be a tanking type of class. Ever. And the only thing the voidwalker does is give a passive ability that makes everything you do gain more aggro. It's not like it's actively getting things to attack you. It just sits there meleeing things.

Vanilla beta, they were geared up to be ranged tanks, but it was cancelled due to ... well... whatever reason they did it for.

Also, you had elements of Warlock tanking in Burning Crusade. You used a warlock to tank one of the two phases of Leotheras the Blind and, I believe, something in the Black Temple (Illidan? I don't remember, I didn't do Black Temple at level - deployment!). Even as current as Wrath, warlocks were the most optimal "tank" for the Blood Prince Council fight, until gear allowed more traditional tanks to soak those improved Shadow Lances.

Despite popular opinion, there are some people in Blizzard who have a hard on for warlocks. Every expansion, they have tried to give them something to allow them to do something "unique".

EDIT: Oh yeah, Thalevia also reminded me about Kael'thas. You (the warlock) had to tank one of his council members.

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I'm late to the party.

Vanilla beta, they were geared up to be ranged tanks, but it was cancelled due to ... well... whatever reason they did it for.

Also, you had elements of Warlock tanking in Burning Crusade. You used a warlock to tank one of the two phases of Leotheras the Blind and, I believe, something in the Black Temple (Illidan? I don't remember, I didn't do Black Temple at level - deployment!). Even as current as Wrath, warlocks were the most optimal "tank" for the Blood Prince Council fight, until gear allowed more traditional tanks to soak those improved Shadow Lances.

Despite popular opinion, there are some people in Blizzard who have a hard on for warlocks. Every expansion, they have tried to give them something to allow them to do something "unique".

EDIT: Oh yeah, Thalevia also reminded me about Kael'thas. You (the warlock) had to tank one of his council members.

I don't know anything about the beta, but there have been about 4 warlock "tank" fights in the game:

Twin Emperors

Leotheras

Illidan phase 2

Grand Astromancer Capernian (Add for Kael fight).

You could also include Curator and Blood Princes, but since other classes can do it, I do not. Still, this is a huge difference between niche tanking fights where the fight itself was developed around the idea of the Warlock versus making an entire spec a tanking spec and having to rework every boss in the game to be possible to be tanked by a Warlock.

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Indeed, there is a difference between a niche fight and a complete overhaul ... but that wasn't what you said. You said it was never intended, implied, or presented... when it was.

I've seen a lot of people (here and on other threads) throw their arms up in the air and say how outrageous the idea of warlock tanking is. It isn't .... they've done it before and they (whoever makes the decisions about this sort of thing) seem to want to continue to bring it up.

I hope they don't, just to the simple fact they could put all that effort into Monk tanking. For raids, you only need two. For PvP? Well, we see what happened with Blood Death Knights in Cataclysm and Protection Paladins in Wrath.

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Yeah...that's why I changed my post, because that's what I said on MMO-C and not on here. I'm not sure why you still brought it up, since I changed it nearly immediately. So, grats?

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Alright. Not sure what that has to do with anything that I had stated, but it's good to clarify something other than nothing.

Shadow bolts! Pew pew.

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We know the Horde and Alliance both have entrance cutscenes into Pandaria. Here is the (somewhat) completed Alliance one:

[video=youtube;aW3b5dr3gvI]

It makes a bit more sense now why Nell Nightwind/Amber Kearnen and the others recognize you when you first meet them again in Pandaria.

Oh...and I have to say, from both Westfall's "sniper" quest, and from Pandaria, Amber Kearnen is a badass.

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Hah, I can just imagine that nelf druid's thoughts as he mouses over that SW portal near the end.

"What the hell? Why'd we have to -FLY- here?!"

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