Aleria Fadeleaf

Night Elves/Cenarian Circle debate

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How is defending against an action not considered part of a storyline? That makes no sense at all.
It is considered as part of a storyline, just not as a part of the defending party's storyline. The action was initiated by the initiating party. Events that reverse, or attempt to reverse, their actions, cannot be considered as a defending party's storyline.
Not to mention that "materiality" is completely subjective in the case of whether or not something in the lore is important

It isn't as easy of a determination as it would be for say, operating segments, but that's only because of the qualitative nature of it. I would say that if someone requested a one or two page synopsis of Cataclysm, an immaterial fact would be a fact that you would not put on that one to two page synopsis.

It does? Westfall was never as bad as it is in Cataclysm. Not even close.

It remains a local issue with no real impact on the outside world, except for Stormwind having to worry about the Alliance, just like they had to worry about them in Vanilla. In the larger picture of things. It just doesn't matter.

How about the Alliance coming in and completely destroying the Forsaken and pushing them out of Gilneas. I'm going to guess "Reactionary" because it doesn't fit in with your argument.

Gilneas is a bit thornier, because you have elements of a new story coming up at the same time that the Forsaken attack. There are elements of the story that are uniquely Alliance, and the Alliance do force the Forsaken to deal with them in places, and in ways that they haven't before. My only issue is that the Alliance doesn't even see half of their own story.

No affect on the outside world? A faction of Dark Irons joining the Alliance? The leader of the Dwarves dying?

Not for the internal parts, no. We just haven't seen enough of that conflict materially affect the rest of the world, with notable exception being Kudran's involvement in the Wildhammer questline.

Subjective.

The Gnomes' situation is very similar to what they have been doing since Vanilla, and none of it affects the outside world.

Really? Because you could say that Garrosh using the Cataclysm as a means to attack an enemy is a violation of reasonable uniqueness because the Alliance does the exact same thing, something you yourself admitted.

Not in the same way as I mean with the Night Elves. Most of the Night Elves' story involves mirror quests. The Horde bombs Astraanar, you put out the fires. The Horde corrupts the forest heart, you purify it. The Horde bombs Thal'darah grove, you witness it. An argument could be made for Darkshore, but Hyjal? Absolutely not.

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By your own logic then, what happens in Ashenvale doesn't matter because what happens there doesn't go outside of the immediate area. You complete Ashenvale and then it's "La de da" off to Stonetalon with you. The only thing that happens is the Night Elves (like the Humans) have to worry about Ashenvale (Like with Westfall).

Speaking of Stonetalon, how about the Alliance allying with the Grimtotem there?

Also...how about all the Gnomes in Stonetalon, Tanaris, ect? We could count Southern Barrens, but you already dismissed it earlier, so I wont bring it up.

And what qualifier are you using to define the "outside world"? Because I would consider Stormwind going broke and having Westfall become the slums of Stormwind affecting the outside world. I would count the Gnomes retaking Gnomeregan and upgrading their technology, which allows them to then aid the Alliance in other areas such as Stonetalon and Tanris as affecting the outside world. I would see the Dark Iron Dwarves partially joining the Alliance affecting the outside world, ect.

Dislike of the storyling =/= the storyline being immaterial. I dislike that the Alliance gets their ass kicked up and down Lordaeron and northern Kalimdor, but it still happens, and is significant.

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By your own logic then, what happens in Ashenvale doesn't matter because what happens there doesn't go outside of the immediate area. You complete Ashenvale and then it's "La de da" off to Stonetalon with you. The only thing that happens is the Night Elves (like the Humans) have to worry about Ashenvale (Like with Westfall).

It doesn't matter because your actions change nothing about the outside world, or the situation in general, and because your quests are all mirror quests.

Speaking of Stonetalon, how about the Alliance allying with the Grimtotem there?

It's immaterial. It's a small part of the story, and it doesn't lead to anything tangible. Do the Grimtotem stay allied with the Alliance? No, you have to fight them in future zones. They're even laying perpetual siege to a Night Elven town in Feralas.

Also...how about all the Gnomes in Stonetalon, Tanaris, ect? We could count Southern Barrens, but you already dismissed it earlier, so I wont bring it up.

When did I dismiss the Southern Barrens? I brought that up to help clarify materiality, asserting that it was in fact, material.

And what qualifier are you using to define the "outside world"? Because I would consider Stormwind going broke and having Westfall become the slums of Stormwind affecting the outside world. I would count the Gnomes retaking Gnomeregan and upgrading their technology, which allows them to then aid the Alliance in other areas such as Stonetalon and Tanris as affecting the outside world. I would see the Dark Iron Dwarves partially joining the Alliance affecting the outside world, ect.

Stormwind has had financial troubles for a while now, and the troubles largely don't appear to affect anything except for Westfall. If they, for example, had a banking crisis and their military began to wonder where their pay was, affecting their ability on the battlefield, then I'd call it material, but we just don't see much of an effect at all. For Gnomeregan, if they actually retook the city, that would be great, and that would be considerable, but the fact is that they haven't.

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It doesn't matter because your actions change nothing about the outside world, or the situation in general, and because your quests are all mirror quests.

Like I said, the same exact thing can be said about Ashenvale. The Night Elves' loss in Ashenvale affects NOTHING in-game outside of Ashenvale. Show me the difference to the "outside world" (Which you still haven't defined) through some in-game quest or npc text that isn't just a breadcrumb quest to the next area.

It's immaterial. It's a small part of the story, and it doesn't lead to anything tangible. Do the Grimtotem stay allied with the Alliance? No, you have to fight them in future zones. They're even laying perpetual siege to a Night Elven town in Feralas.

Again, completely subjective. How about the fact that the Alliance are resorting to allying with a group who openly joins with the Forsaken and attack the Alliance in Dustwallow?

Stormwind has had financial troubles for a while now, and the troubles largely don't appear to affect anything except for Westfall. If they, for example, had a banking crisis and their military began to wonder where their pay was, affecting their ability on the battlefield, then I'd call it material, but we just don't see much of an effect at all.

Probably because for 99% of the playerbase, having NPCs standing around asking to see the books of Stormwind's coffers is completely boring. Which is subjective.

For Gnomeregan, if they actually retook the city, that would be great, and that would be considerable, but the fact is that they haven't.

They take the entire surface and a good chunk of the inner-surface area, and create their own town. That's immaterial? Again, subjective.

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Aleria, why do you feel Hyjal should just be for the Night Elves? Until the Third War, yes, that area was all Night Elf, all the time (for a mere payment of 9.95 a minute). But when Archimonde made his way there, it was not Night Elves that fought and defeated him. It was not the Horde that fought and defeated him. It was not the Alliance that fought and defeated them.

It was ALL of them. Since then, Hyjal started a new history of cooperation (either positive, or negative), and you're neglecting the very important fact of game mechanics. That being a high end area, there is no -fully Alliance/Horde- zone for end level, so yes, there will be shared quests. You sometimes forget that rather important fact when you bring up quests and zone lore and such (when it relates to WoW material, that is).

And, while you bring up good points, but so does Necro, your 'three point system', makes no sense. Its impossible to anaylze something like that, because not everything fits into a way of thinking your familiar with in your accounting background. If that were the case, everything would be, split even.

And don't count out those Gnomes. Thats the one race I'm REALLY sure, could seriously just destroy the world. Only difference is, they'd do it completely on accident.

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Like I said, the same exact thing can be said about Ashenvale.

Are you talking about things from the Alliance or the Horde perspective? Because there is a difference in that Ashenvale materially affects the internal politics of the Horde, entices the Alliance to attack the Southern Barrens, grants insight into Garrosh's driving purpose, materially affects relationships between the Alliance and the Horde, and is initiated by the Horde. The Alliance side by contrast is completely reactionary.

Again, completely subjective. How about the fact that the Alliance are resorting to allying with a group who openly joins with the Forsaken and attack the Alliance in Dustwallow?

Have you played the quest, Necroxis?

Probably because for 99% of the playerbase, having NPCs standing around asking to see the books of Stormwind's coffers is completely boring. Which is subjective

If it doesn't make a difference for "99% of the playerbase" then how can you say that it has a material effect on the story?

They take the entire surface and a good chunk of the inner-surface area, and create their own town. That's immaterial? Again, subjective.

Yes, they take one step, but they don't actually achieve their goal, a goal which has defined them since vanilla. Would you put that in the one to two page synopsis? Because I sure wouldn't.

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And don't count out those Gnomes. Thats the one race I'm REALLY sure, could seriously just destroy the world. Only difference is, they'd do it completely on accident.

They have nuclear bombs! Nuclear bombs.

Are you talking about things from the Alliance or the Horde perspective? Because there is a difference in that Ashenvale materially affects the internal politics of the Horde, entices the Alliance to attack the Southern Barrens, grants insight into Garrosh's driving purpose, materially affects relationships between the Alliance and the Horde, and is initiated by the Horde. The Alliance side by contrast is completely reactionary.

So please explain to me where we draw the line. Because the Horde attack Ashenvale, the Alliance's attack on Souther Barrens is entirely discounted as reactionary? Also, for clarification's sake, where does it actually say that Garrosh's attack on Ashenvale is the reason the Alliance are pushing into the Southern Barrens.

Have you played the quest, Necroxis?

Yes, yes I have. Your point?

If it doesn't make a difference for "99% of the playerbase" then how can you say that it has a material effect on the story?

Exactly my point. Your complaint is that Stormwind should have had a banking crisis, and because they haven't the fact that they're poor is immaterial. That's a completely subjective argument. Thanks for verifying it.

Yes, they take one step, but they don't actually achieve their goal, a goal which has defined them since vanilla. Would you put that in the one to two page synopsis? Because I sure wouldn't.

So the fact that they didn't kill Thermaplugg completely negates the entirety of Operation: Gnomeregan and the results? That's nonsensical. If your synopsis (Which doesn't seem to be based on anything but what the writer deems important) includes blips about each race, then yes, I would.

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Aleria, why do you feel Hyjal should just be for the Night Elves? Until the Third War, yes, that area was all Night Elf, all the time (for a mere payment of 9.95 a minute). But when Archimonde made his way there, it was not Night Elves that fought and defeated him. It was not the Horde that fought and defeated him. It was not the Alliance that fought and defeated them.

It was ALL of them. Since then, Hyjal started a new history of cooperation (either positive, or negative), and you're neglecting the very important fact of game mechanics. That being a high end area, there is no -fully Alliance/Horde- zone for end level, so yes, there will be shared quests. You sometimes forget that rather important fact when you bring up quests and zone lore and such (when it relates to WoW material, that is).

Hyjal is Night Elven land, but the fact that it is not uniquely Night Elven means that we cannot count the events of Hyjal as being attributable to the player faction. What bugs me the most about Hyjal though is more that the dominant theme of the Night Elven culture cannot be even attributable to Night Elves anymore. The Night Elves have completely lost their culture to the Cenarion Circle.

And, while you bring up good points, but so does Necro, your 'three point system', makes no sense. Its impossible to anaylze something like that, because not everything fits into a way of thinking your familiar with in your accounting background. If that were the case, everything would be, split even.

The problem with your, and Necroxis's analysis is that nothing is completely objective. From Copyright law to pension accounting, to consolidation rules, there are always subjective measures, and there will always be some gray areas. That's why we have interpretations in the first place. The criteria are subjective, true, but they are not completely subjective, there is still a bright line distinction between one and the other, as opposed to completely subjective evaluation which arises in absence of any criteria at all.

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The problem with your, and Necroxis's analysis is that nothing is completely objective. From Copyright law to pension accounting, to consolidation rules, there are always subjective measures, and there will always be some gray areas. That's why we have interpretations in the first place. The criteria are subjective, true, but they are not completely subjective, there is still a bright line distinction between one and the other, as opposed to completely subjective evaluation which arises in absence of any criteria at all.

And that line of distinction is what, exactly? That Aleria doesn't like the outcome of Ashenvale?

I disliked the outcome of the Andorhal storyline, so that means that the Alliance's efforts in the Western Plaguelands were immaterial. Is that how it works?

How can you argue a point as fact based on a scale of subjectivity?

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So please explain to me where we draw the line. Because the Horde attack Ashenvale, the Alliance's attack on Southern Barrens is entirely discounted as reactionary?

Necroxis, this is the problem that I have with arguing with you. I have gone out of my way to say that the attack. despite being a direct reaction to Garrosh's aggression, can be considered as part of the Alliance story. It's a bold move which does not simply mirror Horde actions, and forces the other side to actually react.

Also, for clarification's sake, where does it actually say that Garrosh's attack on Ashenvale is the reason the Alliance are pushing into the Southern Barrens.

Cataclysm Players manual, page 10.

Yes, yes I have. Your point?

My point is that it makes very little difference, and fails to materialize into anything besides the results of those quests. It means nothing.

Exactly my point. Your complaint is that Stormwind should have had a banking crisis, and because they haven't the fact that they're poor is immaterial. That's a completely subjective argument. Thanks for verifying it.

You misunderstood my argument, Necroxis, the poverty in Westfall has had no real effect on Stormwind other than the Defias resurgence in Westfall, which merely returns the region to the status quo. Unless it affects something else, like say, Stormwind's military or trade position, it means nothing.

So the fact that they didn't kill Thermaplugg completely negates the entirety of Operation: Gnomeregan and the results?

Yes, it does, because the gnomes have only barely progressed. Over the course of things, they have simply been stagnant.

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