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Erm, yes, I don't disagree with that statement, which is why I made it, I just really disagree with what he believes.

I'm allowed to say that I disagree with what he believes, aren't I?

Well yes, however your statement doesn't make much sense. You agree and disagree that he believes that....

Care to explain?

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You're free to disagree with whatever you want, I do it all the time (:D), however (Unless I'm mistaken), your argument was that it was stupid of him to fight for the lumber instead of trade for it. And my counter was that he doesn't care about the repercussions of fighting for it. So it's a bit pointless to try and explain why it would be better for him to trade instead of fight when he has no qualms with slaughtering -everything- in his way to get what he wants.

Unlike Thrall (Who is a good candidate for your argument and I wholly agree with you)

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You guys do know that the Ashenvale lumber STARTED and CONTINUED under Thralls reign? He is all for a positive change and peace, but he's also for not looking weak at the same time.

Aleria, his view of 'Alliance want us dead', is fairly valid, as its vaild for the Alliance side of it as well. The Alliance, as a whole, hasn't given the Horde a chance to be the Horde that Thrall wanted. Interal issues asside, the Alliance pressure of past deads never helped. I think that may be part of why Thrall steps down, a small part anyways. Hell, like we've argued before, the Alliance is still on the Orcs homeland. Thats a REALLY solid reason to have that view point. Garrosh grew up there, and watched his land get picked apart from enemies from home, and enemies from the Portal.

I can completely see and understand that viewpoint. I dont think he means, start The Fourth War, more like, we used the soft approach before, it's time to show the teeth now.

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To be fair, Thrall didn't know he was sending Grom to invade a foreign group's land to get the lumber. Knowing Thrall, I really doubt that he would still give the same order if he knew the Night Elves were there. Grom might have not cared, but after Thrall JUST told Grom not to attack the Humans in the same mission he gives Grom the order to gather lumber, he probably would have tried to talk to them.

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Jeedup has a point though. It continued after the Third War.

I've always chalked this up to the absentee nature of Thrall's leadership, but even so, it shouldn't have been going on. What's made me curious is that the Night Elves still traded with them, which to me can only mean two things:

1) Golden pulled a retcon

or

2) The Night Elves were still trying to give the Horde a chance.

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I'm aware that the original expansion into Ashenvale was made on zero reconnaissance (I also thought Grom went into Ashenvale basically on his own? I could be missing something), but the point is, he made the eventual decision, to STAY there.

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Jeedup has a point though. It continued after the Third War.

I've always chalked this up to the absentee nature of Thrall's leadership, but even so, it shouldn't have been going on. What's made me curious is that the Night Elves still traded with them, which to me can only mean two things:

I think you're mistaking Thrall not doing anything about it for absentee. What if he didn't want to do anything about it, and despite the agressive nature of how it started, felt no need to leave the area either, or atleast, stop expanding? I personally doubt the Night elves would 'give the Horde a change', however, I'm open to the intent/possibility. It just seems rather against their nature. While they have a fairly peaceful nature, they are generally xenophobic, and going on how the orcs and night elves first met, might hold grudges based on the old demonic corruption line.

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No, Thrall tells Grom to "Go south and harvest lumber" or something.

And Golden didn't retcon anything. I'd probably agree with Aleria's assessment about Thrall's absence regarding why they stayed, since Thrall really never (To my knowledge) actually went to the camp, or he didn't care enough about it versus the whole "OH MY GOD THE LEGION IS HERE TO KILL US ALL" part of it. Anyhow, I had it backward: After the Lich King's death, the Horde and Alliance call a truce, and when the Twilight's, under guise of Horde, kill all the druids and almost Runetotem, then is when the trade stops.

Sorry...I can't seem to find my book so I had to google it.

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Now, the Xenophobia thing I also take issue with. The Highborne were certainly Xenophobic, but let's recap what the Night Elves have done since we checked on them in Warcraft III

-They attacked the Orcs and the Humans. (This is the only area that I can find that truly defends Xenophobia. Regardless of that however, the Night Elves saw their actions as safeguarding their lands against invaders. They also mistook the Orcs for demons evidenced by Cenarion's shouting in the mission where he dies.

-They allied with the Alliance after the Third War.

-They were trading with the Orcs, even as their presence in Ashenvale continues.

-Night Elves move out into the wider world.

-The Exodar crashes into Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isle, causing death and misery for the Night Elven inhabitants. Regardless, after an apology, the Night Elves fully accept the Draenei as allies, with two ambassadors regularly visiting the Temple of the Moon, and the joint effort at creating a new Draenei settlement in Forest Song.

-The Night Elves land in Quel'thalas, undertaking sabotage against their cousins. (Not a good move, but I don't know if it can be considered Xenophobic, given the circumstances.)

-The Night Elves send forces to Northrend, with a lot of emphasis on the Dragonblight. Alliance ambassadors to both the Dragons and to the Kalu'ak are exclusively Kal'dorei.

-The Night Elves assist the Gilneans in their attempt to defeat the forsaken, sending a considerable amount of military power there to aid a bunch of humans they haven't seen or heard from before. Personal guilt I'm sure has something to do with it, but in addition to the help, they also house the Gilneans in Darnassus, granting them their own district in the city. The Gilnean Quartermaster can also be found in Darnassus.

So I have potentially two counts out of eight, and I can dispute those two quite easily as well. Overall, I think that given the Night Elves' actions, it's very difficult to call them Xenophobic.

Even if you did, however, that's still not an excuse for Hellscream's actions.

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Regarding the Blood Elf thing: That quest occurs before Thrall inducts them into the Horde. The Night Elves just attack them because they're mean and don't like Arcane magic. So I wouldn't count this one.

And you also nailed the Gilnean one, I wouldn't count it either.

Other than that, carry on.

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I don't see their xenophobia as an aggressive one, more isolationist. Hell, they've abandoned alot of their own territory as well, which seems even more isolationism.

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I was also under the assumption that the Draenei islands, were abandoned by the Night Elves, with only a few loners on there. Looked on WoWWiki, and only found mention of decayed ruines, not actual settlements.

Up until the Third War, they were most definetly, xenophobic and isolationist. However, once seeing more 'enlightened' races (based on their arrogant hoity toity WE'RE REALLY OLD view), they most likely saw unless they got involved, they would probably become rather endangered, from ANYONE.

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I was also under the assumption that the Draenei islands, were abandoned by the Night Elves, with only a few loners on there. Looked on WoWWiki, and only found mention of decayed ruines, not actual settlements.

Up until the Third War, they were most definetly, xenophobic and isolationist. However, once seeing more 'enlightened' races (based on their arrogant hoity toity WE'RE REALLY OLD view), they most likely saw unless they got involved, they would probably become rather endangered, from ANYONE.

Up until the Third War, I can see that to an extent, but I definitely think that things have changed after the Third War.

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Having actually done the quests, most of the Horde attacks are in retaliation for ambushes and sieges on already established Horde areas, like the Mor'shan Rampart and Splintertree Post, and also the Lumber Camp. It's about keeping those secure, and that's what the bomb is for, developed first in smaller amounts and used on Astranaar, and then leading up to transporting the big one to Stonetalon.

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Having actually done the quests, most of the Horde attacks are in retaliation for ambushes and sieges on already established Horde areas, like the Mor'shan Rampart and Splintertree Post, and also the Lumber Camp. It's about keeping those secure, and that's what the bomb is for, developed first in smaller amounts and used on Astranaar, and then leading up to transporting the big one to Stonetalon.

These areas that are already in Ashenvale? Areas that the Night Elves consider sovereign parts of their territory? Areas that have been sovereign parts of their territory for ten-thousand years?

When I read this I see:

"We're justified to invade you further because you attacked our invasion points."

Edited by Aleria Fadeleaf

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I hope you're joking about saying 'schools and living centers', sounds like you're trying to be a CNN news anchor.

Don't mean to interrupt, and I know this was awhile ago, but I believe Aleria meant the Stonetalon quest when, as horde, you fly your balloon bomb into the druid school tree thing. And then Garrosh throws the Warlord that planned it off the bluff. That moment was win.

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I had difficulty finding this source, but now that I have it, I am casting further doubt on the first thing you said, Anthek. Your claim as I read it was that the entire Orcish offensive, in Stonetalon Mountains, in Ashenvale, and in Darkshore was solely because the Night Elves laid siege to Splintertree post (something which I thought happened after the initial orcish attacks) and because they attacked the Warsong Lumber camps (again, something which I thought happened after the initial orcish attacks).

http://www.wowhead.com/blog=168144/official-cataclysm-ashenvale-preview

Among other catastrophes, an enormous volcano has erupted in central Ashenvale. As the night elves struggle to deal with the chaos caused by the Cataclysm, the Horde is siezing what it percieves to be a golden opportunity. Garrosh Hellscream's forces are now bearing down on the night elves and have overtaken several key positions that once served as Alliance strongholds.

I think the quote makes it clear that Garrosh drew first blood, Garrosh started the conflict, and now the Horde is responsible for it.

With that, I leave you with another quote, this one from Garrosh Hellscream, which can be found here:

Kalimdor should be home to the orcs, Rehgar. All of Kalimdor!

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