Talarian

Wintergrasp

Recommended Posts

So I'm wondering, you many, many, many more Horde players out there, do you actually enjoy Wintergrasp? I ask because as an Alliance player, I really don't. Generally the ratio is about 8 or 10 Horde to 1 Alliance player; I usually have 5 or 6 stacks of tenacity during any WG fight. Tenacity, however, is not equal to having more players. Is it fun for you, though, just plowing through small groups of Alliance players? I try to imagine if the Alliance just quit playing entirely....would you still show up at WG and just sit there until the timer ran out? Sometimes I think about server transferring since this isn't really a server. Its a Horde server. I haven't seen such an incredible faction imbalance on any server I've ever played on.

I'm obviously a bit frustrated, but much more so than I ever am in a regular BG, where at least numbers are even. The Alliance seems to lose just as much there, at least in this battlegroup, but I feel better about losing in a battleground because I actually lost, rather than just having gotten outnumbered by a factor of ten.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were, for a time, several successful premades Alliance-side, courtesy of the bright minded individuals of HRA. End of the expansion duldrums seems to have set in on many, though, and despite the efforts on the Alliance side, WG remains a lopsided mess.

Something of note, though...is Maellol leading some kind of mini-premade? I've been seeing a lot of him around WG, which is both neat and terrifying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wintergrasp is not enjoyable to me. The vastly unequal numbers in conjunction with "tenacity" make it highly disagreeable -- either it's a bunch of horde destroying one or two alliance (lame), or I run into one alliance in the fields, but he has 75,000 health and deals 5000 white damage (or what have you).

WG is no fun, and I'm not particularly looking forward to Tol Barad as Horde in the way they've designed it, as there will be scores of us queueing but so long as alliance numbers remain low, we won't even get to compete. This is presuming that the Alliance does not get rebalanced to be more numerous with the introduction of Worgen, which in any case is itself quite debatable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was under the impression they were going to buff the vehicles, but it hasn't happened yet. It's not so much numbers, but attitude Alliance side. If people would queue, then they would win.

HRA and Highland Maurauders tried so hard to show people how to win even when outnumbered, and when they were rolling premades Alliance was winning. But it took a long time and a lot of near-begging to get people to queue even when there were premades.

When they stopped doing it consistantly, no one stepped up to lead. People stopped que-ing again. It shouldn't require someone to spam trade channel for 1/2 hour before each game to get enough people in it to have a chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What Villy said, basically. Not to mention all the bad mouthing that happened for months "Premades dont work!" and straining to even get one full raid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quite frankly this horde imbalance is the opposite on my old server eredar. Yes ther's alot of us hordies, bad thing is although we outnumber allaince, a vast majority of the horde suck at pvp, where on the allaince you have smaller numbers, but a significannt amount moreof skilld players. on eredar, ally used to outnumber us 5 to 2 and even when it was against some of the better ally pvp guilds for most hord, it wwasnt even a challenge unless you took 2 to 3 all on at once. simply because they lacked severly in pvp skill. so in theory i dont thinkit's that unbalanced, you can get 5 or 10 of your better players ally side in one wg. and basically stomp a whole hordee 40 man easily iif you play your cards right, and considering how unorganized we are. Also if you want to improve your chances of winning, stop going for the same side everygame, w basically justt wait theirwith goblin rocket launchers untill an armada of tanks comme into veiw to get blown up, you know what they say "Those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past, are condemnd to repeat them"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Generally, in the raids I've been in, the Alliance has difficulty getting over 30 people into the first raid. As the fight goes on, however, this slowly fills up and I think about half the time, a second raid forms with about... ten people in it, maybe. This is during peak hours, from what I've seen. Basically, the Horde can run in and control whatever they want before the Alliance has numbers to fight back. And by the time there are enough, it's usually too late.

There have been plenty of times I've been in a raid with about 20 Alliance players with about 12 stacks of Tenacity, sometimes more. Now, I don't know how the math works out to the ratio balance, but that's a big difference as far as I can see.

What I see in General chat more often than not are a few people offering advice on what to do, and most not listening. The the attitude of "I'ma go off and do my own thing" doesn't work. And that's where I see the Alliance failing horribly in Wintergrasp. More numbers would be lovely, yes, but that doesn't necessarily win the battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Its a Horde server. I haven't seen such an incredible faction imbalance on any server I've ever played on.

Argent Dawn has it worse, but in the Alliance's favor. Though lately, I've heard tales of some folks going out of their way to organize the Horde and put up a decent fight to actually win WG. They apparently take WG very seriously on AD, though, as, being an RP realm, rather than RPPvP, all of world pvp is judged off of WG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quite frankly this horde imbalance is the opposite on my old server eredar. Yes ther's alot of us hordies, bad thing is although we outnumber allaince, a vast majority of the horde suck at pvp, where on the allaince you have smaller numbers, but a significannt amount moreof skilld players.

That's quite the sweeping generalization.

It's also wrong. Of the 98* highest rated arena players on Twisting Nether, the majority of them are Horde. If you look at the top 16* 5s teams, only 6 of them are Alliance. If you look at 3s, of the top 88* rated teams only 35 of them are Alliance. And finally if we look at 2s (even though it's a horrible bracket, even Blizz admits this), of the top 89* teams, 55 of them are Horde. The top team in each bracket was a Horde team.

*= as high as AJ goes on TN

I'm aware arenas are not where PvP starts and stops, but it is currently is one of the only ways we can gauge skill in a way that isn't subjective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was eagerly anticipating a supposed fix that was announced a while back of forcing even sides. it's been some months and there has been no further mention of it. This could have made it more of a tactical and interesting battleground. But as it is now I don't enjoy Wintergrasp at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10/16 62% vs 38% (5's teams)

53/88 60% vs 40% (3's teams)

55/89 62% vs 38% (2's teams)

So pretty much 6 versus 4, which matches the ratio warcraftrealms gives for the population balance. If the same ratio of Alliance went into WG, Horde would probably still win more, but it wouldn't be the blowouts we are seeing now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope, Maellol hasn't been running mini-premades. We just all like to get together and cause as much damage as we can. Never really looking to win, just looking to hold off as many people as we can with a small group cause fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes. I do enjoy it.

It's not our fault your faction doesn't queue.

And it's not our problem.

But hey, that's your gear you're missing out on, and you're Archavon runs (which I don't even do to be honest).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know Lysy said it's debatable, but as far as TNG goes, I don't know that many people (or at least who are vocal) who are making Worgen, myself included, but I know tons of people from both factions who are going gobbo. That being said, I'm looking forward to Tol'Barad more purely because it was one of the best water maps in WC2 campaign. And I'm hoping it provides a few more unique things than WG does. At the same time, I've asked Irontoe (who I have to admit is a good premade leader) several times about his premade strategy, and I'm gonna have to write it down if I want to lead another >.< I lead one back when I was with HRA and it was a bit difficult and overwhelming, I've got all these people after the failed zerg, and I don't know what to tell them. At the same time GETTING the people wasn't terribly hard. At least back then. I just hope TB balance and the huge number of people coming in at the start of Cataclysm will work in our faor to split it until the first Major Content patch ruins it for us again. At the same time, other than the marks and the occasional shards, having WG isn't important to me, I don't do a terrible amount of VoA the few times a week we have it. Although I should say I queue for almost every battle when gearing a new 80, those shoulders are just so damn nice.

There's no doubt we NEED premades again, and there's no doubt they work. It's just gettting the people who are sore from losing and have no motivation back in the mood to win. Grabbing marks on my Lock was hell. I would usually just go in and afk, make a sandwich and come back make sure I was still in and 1st LT because I felt like I was just feeding HKs to the dozens of geared Horde to match the one ungeared me by leaving the rez zone. Deafeatist? Yeah, but we would win a game a week and never would it be expected. I'm getting one mark whether I try or not, and after I get 40 I just have to look at the map every 2 and a half hours and see if we have it yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's not our fault your faction doesn't queue.

And it's not our problem.

I'm quite looking forward to TOR and the hope that they will have a more fluid and dynamic faction system. I think the enforced non-interaction of WoW factions leads to, well, commentary and attitudes like this. Though, in fairness, come Tol Barad this WILL be "your" problem, assuming you ever want to be able to queue for it.

Well, I guess its comforting to know that I'm not the only one so frustrated by the way WG works. I guess the only fun thing about being the underdog is that when you do win, its like Christmas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's not so much numbers, but attitude Alliance side. If people would queue, then they would win.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rout

Oversimplifying the issue of general morale doesn't help. While some pre-mades did manage to win while being outnumbered, part of what they did was even out the numbers as much as they could.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the population differences were amplified this late into the expansion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm quite looking forward to TOR and the hope that they will have a more fluid and dynamic faction system. I think the enforced non-interaction of WoW factions leads to, well, commentary and attitudes like this. Though, in fairness, come Tol Barad this WILL be "your" problem, assuming you ever want to be able to queue for it.

Well, I guess its comforting to know that I'm not the only one so frustrated by the way WG works. I guess the only fun thing about being the underdog is that when you do win, its like Christmas.

Oooh, I play WarHammer. I get my ass kicked for hours across a much grander campaign, but I still fight.

12 people in a goddamned keep with 150 people outside? I'm there firin' a cannon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just think of Wintergrasp as HK farm tiem. If there's more then 30 people at the start of the battle I will usually try. There usually isn't which leads to 10 stacks of tenacity, which leads to me picking off horde with my rocket glove and farming around 200 HKs for the 20 or so minutes. With rocket boots and bubble I usually only die once or twice. I get honor and more HKs and I don't feel frustrated because I can't do anything in WG with under 25 people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HRA led very successful premades, but all of its leaders went different directions for various different reasons (none of them ill-willed mind you). The thing is, it shouldn't take premades being forced down people's throats for 6 months to get them to understand how WG works. When AV premades became a thing with Micro, it was a matter of weeks before others were jumping on the bandwagon. Wobble led most of them, but I ended up leading a fair number. Even within HRA, there was a feeling among the leaders that others just weren't taking initiative that often. I don't know why, but people just didn't seem to care. They (sometimes) cared enough to stop calling us baddies and scrubs and nubs after dragging their feet while we carried their dumb asses, but overall nobody ever though "hey, they do this, I can too!" If you think about it, the premades shouldn't even be needed after a couple months, because unlike AV you play with basically the same people every time, and word of anything spreads like wildfire within a single server. Instead most people were content to continue bitching or settle for the route of apathy.

On a positive note, Battlegrounds are a different story entirely, being almost completely even!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rout

Oversimplifying the issue of general morale doesn't help. While some pre-mades did manage to win while being outnumbered, part of what they did was even out the numbers as much as they could.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the population differences were amplified this late into the expansion.

It was largely offensive coordination and getting a solid number of people who would both be trying and know what to do. It didn't work with very few people, and we always relied on those who weren't in the raid to be predictable and occupy the Horde so we could coordinate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead