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Aleria tangent

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Jeedup, I think we've reached an impasse. It is my position that Thrall's Horde, as a political entity cannot lay claim to Outland as sovereign, because Thrall's Horde has never had sovereign land in Outland. The previous horde did, but the previous horde is an entirely different story. Any land they have now they have by the Mag'har, or this-land-belongs-to-Spain-esque claiming. The Alliance has also claimed lands with this-land-belongs-to-Spain-esque claiming, as well as running out Fel Orcs, Legion forces, and Ogres from the lands around their settlements.

You seem to be coming from a cultural, this-land-once-belonged-to-my-grandfather-before-my-father-went-evil standpoint, which is fine, but I do not recognize that as a claim to sovereignty, especially not for a new political entity. To me it's like a former British Colonist laying claim to Yorkshire ten years after achieving independence.

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That's only because you didn't do the Hero of the Mag'har questline.

The very fact that the Greatmother, the Matriarch of all Mag'har, is the mother of Durotan, and thus shares direct blood with Go'el Frostwolf, negates your argument.

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That's only because you didn't do the Hero of the Mag'har questline.

The very fact that the Greatmother, the Matriarch of all Mag'har, is the mother of Durotan, and thus shares direct blood with Go'el Frostwolf, negates your argument.

I do not see how. Niether of the two politically control all of Outland. One leads the new Horde, a new political entity, and the other is a part of the Mag'har, a political entity which holds claim to precious few lands.

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Mutual impass sure, but still, a lovely discussion, however, you've ignored my challenge as to why the Alliance has, and I equally challenge you to not include 'Cause the Draenei are there', because if that was acceptable, then Horde claims on Outland would be.

Oh and, I just remembered, I could argue that the current Horde still has ties and political claims as its previous incarnation.

One word.

Doomhammer.

He rightfully gave his position as Warchief to Thrall, and all it pertained to. Which, could include land and titles in Outland. There was still contact between Azeroth and Draenor on the Orc side, so it could be claimed that alone, could bring in a claim as well.

But still, MY CHALLENGE STANDS!

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Yeah, Doomhammer was the legitimate leader of the old horde, he handed reigns of the entirety thereof to a one Mr. Thrall Durotanson, making him warchief of the horde, such as it was at the time. The fact that Thrall molded the horde into something completely different from the original horde does not predicate the absence of legitimate claims to the horde territory from eons ago.

Consider it outside of any game context: There is a group who holds claim to a great amount of land, the majority of said group leaves the area to perform acts wholly irrelevant to the metaphor, the group has leadership changes, culminating with a leadership change to someone who was born outside of the original holdings of the group, but who upholds all of the traditional beliefs of the original group, he and his ilk return to the area to find it invaded, he repels the invasion and seeks to return the land to its original possessors, claim=legit

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There is just one problem with the argument. (aside from the fact that it validates the Stormpike position in Alterac Valley quite nicely) Doomhammer asserted control over the Horde in Azeroth, then as a military leader. While Doomhammer's people, eventually defeated, were chased back to the Dark Portal, he himself was captured.

This is the point in time where the Horde splits. The Dark Portal is destroyed, and Ner'zhul is the Warchief of the Horde in Draenor. After Doomhammer's escape, he remains the Warchief of the Horde, but only the Azerothian horde. He has no control whatsoever of anything in Draenor. Ner'zhul does, and we all know what happens to him. After his death, Magtheridon asserts himself as the lord of Draenor, rallying numerous surviving orc clans under him. It is at this point that the Horde of Draenor is destroyed, leaving only a few surviving clans.

The other Horde, born from the ashes of the old, out of the internment camps of Lordaeron, while having ties to, and resembling the old horde, is a new horde entirely.

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It wouldn't validate the Stormpike in AV at all, as the Frostwolves split from the Horde then, nearly instantly from walking through the Dark Portal, when Thrall had left Durnholde, he stumbled on them, then Doomhammer arrived, and then it all came tumbling togther.

YOU'RE STILL AVOIDING MY CHALLENGE ALERIA!

You're a chicken accountant, thats what.

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It wouldn't validate the Stormpike in AV at all, as the Frostwolves split from the Horde then, nearly instantly from walking through the Dark Portal, when Thrall had left Durnholde, he stumbled on them, then Doomhammer arrived, and then it all came tumbling togther.

YOU'RE STILL AVOIDING MY CHALLENGE ALERIA!

You're a chicken accountant, thats what.

Explain to me how I'm avoiding your challenge? I have pointed out that the Horde of Draenor was dissolved after Ner'zhul was captured by the legion and turned into the Lich King. Doomhammer lost his army at the Burning Steppes, being taken captive as his people fled back to Draenor. The Dark Portal was closed, Ner'zhul was captured by the legion, and many orc clans submitted themselves to Magtheridon.

When the portal reopened, the Alliance took control of former settlements, and made new ones from land which the Orcish clans had ceded to Magtheridon. They invaded, and took control of lands controlled by the Legion, the Illidari who deposed Magtheridon, or, in two specific cases, the Bladefist Ogre clan. However, due to the dissolusion of the Horde of Draenor, and the subsequent ceding of much of thier lands to Magtheridon, the Alliance never invaded Horde land, but asserted standing claims over land which formerly belonged to the enemies of the current Horde.

If the Azerothian New Horde, founded by Doomhammer and led by Thrall, wishes to claim lands that the Old Horde on Draenor ceded to the legion, then they have to A) Drive the Legion and the Illidari from the lands that the Alliance don't control and B) Negociate with the Alliance to get them to cede the lands that they've claimed or C) Engage in a war of aggression against the Alliance settlements.

Edit: On the subject of Alterac Valley. The argument that I saw was: The Orcs left Draenor[/color], the Alliance moved in, but because the Orcs still hold claim to the land (I dispute this), the Alliance is in the wrong. This logic could easily be applied to Alterac Valley as well: The Dwarves left Alterac Valley (I dispute this), the Frostwolves moved in, but because the Stormpikes still hold claim to the land, the Frostwolves are in the wrong.

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Sorry, but, if you're going to say the previous Horde does not have ties with the current, same goes, if not more so, for the Alliance. And the Horde, should not have to 'negotiate' for those lands, they have no right to them either. So, I'm scratching my head why you seem to think one example is 'right' while the other is 'wrong'.

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I also don't think the Dwarves were ever in Alterac Valley in the first place, as it is in territory that once belonged to a Human Kingdom. Now sure, several hundred years ago, a small group would have been there, but that doesn't mean its some wayward kingdom. If the arguement against claims of ancestry won't work in Outland, same goes to this snowy capped shithole.

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I also don't think the Dwarves were ever in Alterac Valley in the first place, as it is in territory that once belonged to a Human Kingdom. Now sure, several hundred years ago, a small group would have been there, but that doesn't mean its some wayward kingdom. If the arguement against claims of ancestry won't work in Outland, same goes to this snowy capped shithole.

Should I link the WoWwiki article again? The Alterac Mountains are also referred to as "the Dwarf Highlands". There is a reason for this.

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Every time I see this thread pop up, I wonder:

How in the heck did a joke about Thrall dying to prevent Deathwing from destroying the world turn into a debate about the claims of the Alliance vs. the claims of the Horde to the land of Azeroth and Draenor?

I imagine it somehow got there in the first three pages or so, but I find it much more interesting to simply speculate on it.

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Should I link the WoWwiki article again? The Alterac Mountains are also referred to as "the Dwarf Highlands". There is a reason for this.

No, the eastern range where the Hinterlands are actually the Dwarf Highlands, and called "Northereon".

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Should I link the WoWwiki article again? The Alterac Mountains are also referred to as "the Dwarf Highlands". There is a reason for this.

I think this is an area where Blizzard fucked up in their lore. As the Northern section of the Eastern Kingdoms, is a mainly human area. I think it's really just an ancestral claim, from several thousand years ago. If you look at the game map (poor as it is), theres human settlements everywhere, with no real Dwarven sections. Granted, where AV is, isn't even on the map. It was most likely just a way to involve the Dwarves and the Orcs (specifically the Frostwolves, who were mostly ignored in the game).

Outland for Orcs, I say.

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I think this is an area where Blizzard fucked up in their lore. As the Northern section of the Eastern Kingdoms, is a mainly human area. I think it's really just an ancestral claim, from several thousand years ago. If you look at the game map (poor as it is), theres human settlements everywhere, with no real Dwarven sections. Granted, where AV is, isn't even on the map. It was most likely just a way to involve the Dwarves and the Orcs (specifically the Frostwolves, who were mostly ignored in the game).

http://www.wowwiki.com/Alterac_Valley

The valleys of Alterac are also sometimes referred to as the "Dwarf Highlands" — for example, "Frost Wolf was sent into the Dwarf Highlands in the mountains". – Bill Roper[6][2]

I'm not sure about that, given as well that the Stormpikes hold the surrounding valleys as well. I'm also looking at Dun Baldar and Stonehearth Villiage - entire towns with stone buildings which couldn't have gone up quickly.

Outland for Orcs, I say.

That's a great campaign slogan, but after the division of the Horde which I mentioned earlier, the Alliance settlements in no way infringe upon Horde lands. Therefore the Horde will need to either recognize their right to be there, or negociate for the cessation of that land.

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http://www.wowwiki.com/Alterac_Valley

I'm not sure about that, given as well that the Stormpikes hold the surrounding valleys as well. I'm also looking at Dun Baldar and Stonehearth Villiage - entire towns with stone buildings which couldn't have gone up quickly.

That's a great campaign slogan, but after the division of the Horde which I mentioned earlier, the Alliance settlements in no way infringe upon Horde lands. Therefore the Horde will need to either recognize their right to be there, or negociate for the cessation of that land.

You're selectively quoting from an outdated source (the old Warcraft RPG books, which recently are constantly retconned, and the dropped Warcraft Adventure game). This is also contradicting what the article says earlier on.

After Thrall's triumphant uniting of the clans, the Frostwolves, now led by the orc shaman Drek'Thar, chose to remain in the valley they had for so long called their home. In recent times, however, the relative peace of the Frostwolves has been challenged by the arrival of the Dwarven Stormpike Expedition.
The Stormpike are only recent arrivals, according to this paragraph. The Dwarves only argue to it being their land for the presence of Titan relics, due to "Ironforge's sovereign imperialistic imperative" decreed by Magni.

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That's a great campaign slogan, but after the division of the Horde which I mentioned earlier, the Alliance settlements in no way infringe upon Horde lands. Therefore the Horde will need to either recognize their right to be there, or negociate for the cessation of that land.

Simple.

They have no right to be there.

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Simple.

They have no right to be there.

You have thus far failed to show how your claim is valid. The Alliance took lands held by the enemies of both the Alliance and the Horde, namely in the form of lands held by Fel Orc clans which ceded themselves to the Legion, or Ogre Clans who control Blade's Edge Mountains.

Again, Thrall's Horde holds no soveriegn claim to the lands in question, so in the context of a Horde vs. Alliance discussion, I don't know from where you get the validity for your statement.

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Also, Bill Roper left Blizzard to start up his failed company Flagship Studios (who's only release was HellGate London); Roper was lead on Blizzard North; his expertise was on the Diablo franchise he created and maintained, not WarCraft.

When FSS was Deep-6'd, Roper was picked up by Cryptic Studios, and is a major figure in Champions Online. His words on WarCraft, a product he had no hands in at all, are not definitive at all.

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So, Orcs have every right to take land in Eastern Kingdoms, such as, Alterac Valley, because they took the land that was, left alone, and unused. Then they have every right to stay in areas such as Tarren Mill.

I also find you're reasoning that the difference between the Old Horde, and the New Horde, as rather convoluted, and you've not really convinced me that the orcs DON'T have a full right to the diminshed lands and resources, OF THEIR OWN HOMELAND.

If the humans, dwarves, and various other Alliance centered races can bitch and moan that the Orcs have no right to be in sections of the Eastern Kingdoms, or in extension the Horde as whole with considerations toward the Blood Elves and the Forsaken, but the Blood Elves make that arguement a hard one, as well, they've been their for a very long time, they've only just recently switched sides, then the Alliance as well, has no right to stay in Outland.

And I don't see anywhere, when looking at Outland, areas that the Alliance 'took land from enemies of both sides', don't take this personally, but I kinda think you're making this up, unless you've read something, of which I'd like to see. Honor Hold, been there since the Alliances invasion of Draenor, along with the other outpost in Hellfire that was destroyed. I don't (for either side), count the smaller little hubs, as those just seem like camps made temporarly. Alerian Stronghold in Terrokar, also a invasion outpost, the various Draenei outposts in Outland, have I would assume, been there since they first arrived. Wildhammer Stronghold, I'd assume is also an invasion outpost due to the lore character that runs it, but if someone has more info on that, I'd take that back. The only two places I am unsure of, is the Night Elf outpost, Sylvannar, and Toshey Station in Blades Edge. All the rest, are settlements either already there when established as a invading force (which is now invalidated as no longer being at open war with the Horde, and if we use some modern examples, would be demanded to be torn down, but modern examples don't always work), or were settlements by the Draenei.

The basis is, if Humans (going by the old history of WarCraft), feel so offended, and disrespected of Orcs having invaded their planet to conquest, and though they've -attempted- to make amends on it, then how come its acceptable for the Alliance to hold territory in the orcs DESTROYED homeland? Azeroth is fine and dandy, gets alittle charred up by the big bad Deathwing, but Draenor is shattered, but still alive.

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So, Orcs have every right to take land in Eastern Kingdoms, such as, Alterac Valley, because they took the land that was, left alone, and unused. Then they have every right to stay in areas such as Tarren Mill.

In respect to Alterac Valley, I think that a lot of the information I've been putting out is being thrown out prematurely. Parts of the RTS books were retconned, but that doesn't mean that any information coming from those books is automatically invalid. As for Bill Roper, Warcraft may not be his area of expertise, but if he's mentioning Dwarf Highlands, and no one has come along and said "he's just full of it", I think it should be noted.

If I didn't believe the Dwarves held claim to that land, I would say that the Dwarves should leave. The problem is, I'm not as convinced as most of you are that the Stormpikes don't own the land.

I also find you're reasoning that the difference between the Old Horde, and the New Horde, as rather convoluted, and you've not really convinced me that the orcs DON'T have a full right to the diminshed lands and resources, OF THEIR OWN HOMELAND.

I can put this rather simply: Race =/= Political Entity. Political entities control land, not races. For the orcs, after Doomhammer's defeat in the Burning Steppes and his subsequent capture, most of his armies fled behind the Dark Portal, and were under the control of Ner'zhul. This is Horde 1. After Doomhammer's escape, he, with the help of Thrall and the Frostwolves rescue orcs from internment camps, creating Horde 2. Most of Horde 1 was broken and scattered following Ner'zhul's capture, much of Horde 1 gives itself to Mag'theridon, effectively ceding their lands to the legion. Horde 2 meanwhile, has never claimed any of those lands. The fact that they grew up there doesn't factor into the equation, because they are a different political entity. This is what I have been driving at the whole time.

If the humans, dwarves, and various other Alliance centered races can bitch and moan that the Orcs have no right to be in sections of the Eastern Kingdoms, or in extension the Horde as whole with considerations toward the Blood Elves and the Forsaken, but the Blood Elves make that arguement a hard one, as well, they've been their for a very long time, they've only just recently switched sides, then the Alliance as well, has no right to stay in Outland.

You're assuming that I'm the one making these arguments. I'm angry that the Forsaken are killing wantonly in the Alterac Highlands and in Hillsbrad, but I'm not saying that the Forsaken should be pushed out of Lordaeron, or that the Blood Elves all should die.

And I don't see anywhere, when looking at Outland, areas that the Alliance 'took land from enemies of both sides', don't take this personally, but I kinda think you're making this up, unless you've read something, of which I'd like to see.

I do take this personally, because this is a low tactic. Stating that the other side is lying when you lack an argument is not good form. So we're clear, however:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Orgrim_Doomhammer

Nevertheless, Lothar's death did not have the effect that Doomhammer intended. Rather than being demoralized, the Alliance - led by Lothar's lieutenant, Turalyon - rallied, whipped into a frenzy that shocked even the Warchief himself and all but destroyed Doomhammer's forces, chasing them back to the Dark Portal. Orgrim himself was defeated and captured by Turalyon, soon after Lothar's death.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II:_Beyond_the_Dark_Portal

Ner'zhul takes over the orcish hordes of Draenor. This page also mentions his capture.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Magtheridon

Magtheridon arrives after Draenor's cataclysm, and rallies the surviving orc clans (obviously minus the Mag'har) to him.

Magtheridon is of course, defeated by the Illidari, which effectively transfers that land to them. Quests in Hellfire and Shadowmoon also suggest that many of these orcs joined the Illidari. Others were abducted from a nearby Mag'hari villiage.

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In respect to Alterac Valley, I think that a lot of the information I've been putting out is being thrown out prematurely. Parts of the RTS books were retconned, but that doesn't mean that any information coming from those books is automatically invalid. As for Bill Roper, Warcraft may not be his area of expertise, but if he's mentioning Dwarf Highlands, and no one has come along and said "he's just full of it", I think it should be noted.

If I didn't believe the Dwarves held claim to that land, I would say that the Dwarves should leave. The problem is, I'm not as convinced as most of you are that the Stormpikes don't own the land.

Thats because, theres no record, outside of AV (which just may be a game mechanic thing), that says they ever migrated that far north, settled, and STAYED there. Thats the key. If there was a PERMANENT STILL OCCUPIED settlement, close to the Frostwolves, than okay, its an issue. However, the area that they did settle (Frostwolves), was isolated, and deliberatly out of reach of any foreign power. This is explained in Lord of the Clans, theres no mention of Dwarves anywhere near them.

Now, what seems to make MORE sense is, several generations ago, a few dwarves did settle, died out, and somewhere, some guy found a dear diary entry, and instantly Dwarves claim it as their own. It's been done, and has been done before. The Dwarves have no right to be in the Barrens, but yet, there they are, almost unopposed too. Why? THERE ARE POSSIBLE EARTHEN ARTIFACTS THERE, SO BY RIGHTS WE SHOULD BE THERE! Its how their political system, and cultural system works.

I can put this rather simply: Race =/= Political Entity. Political entities control land, not races. For the orcs, after Doomhammer's defeat in the Burning Steppes and his subsequent capture, most of his armies fled behind the Dark Portal, and were under the control of Ner'zhul. This is Horde 1. After Doomhammer's escape, he, with the help of Thrall and the Frostwolves rescue orcs from internment camps, creating Horde 2. Most of Horde 1 was broken and scattered following Ner'zhul's capture, much of Horde 1 gives itself to Mag'theridon, effectively ceding their lands to the legion. Horde 2 meanwhile, has never claimed any of those lands. The fact that they grew up there doesn't factor into the equation, because they are a different political entity. This is what I have been driving at the whole time.

You're race=/=political entity arguement is true, IN THE REAL WORLD. Remember, this is a fictional universe, with people and governments with drives that while may be similar to real world instances, but they will also be driven by desires and motives that may not be within our social norms any more. For example, the Dwarven situation I mentioned above, and to use a real world example, Native Americans. Many (if not all), Native American tribes that struggle with becoming Federally recognized, usually start their arguement with 'our lands were stolen', or 'our ancient lands should be ours again'. It's said, cause well, its true. It's not to dissimilar from the Orcs. It IS their home, they WERE displaced by multiple-means from it, now they come back, and it's not only destroyed, corrupted, but seized by multiple enemies on various fronts. Not only that, but a previous enemy, with leaders known for their hatred of their kind (and yes, Horde have them as well, and in some cases just as bad if not worse), now playing watch dog on their homeland because 'they just might lose it again'.

You're assuming that I'm the one making these arguments. I'm angry that the Forsaken are killing wantonly in the Alterac Highlands and in Hillsbrad, but I'm not saying that the Forsaken should be pushed out of Lordaeron, or that the Blood Elves all should die.

Its arguement for arguement sake, and their still valid points, as some Alliance views are similar to this arguement in terms of those races, and their placement on the Eastern Kingdoms.

I do take this personally, because this is a low tactic. Stating that the other side is lying when you lack an argument is not good form. So we're clear, however:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Orgrim_Doomhammer

http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II:_Beyond_the_Dark_Portal

Ner'zhul takes over the orcish hordes of Draenor. This page also mentions his capture.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Magtheridon

Magtheridon arrives after Draenor's cataclysm, and rallies the surviving orc clans (obviously minus the Mag'har) to him.

Magtheridon is of course, defeated by the Illidari, which effectively transfers that land to them. Quests in Hellfire and Shadowmoon also suggest that many of these orcs joined the Illidari. Others were abducted from a nearby Mag'hari villiage.

Well you shouldn't take it personally, as I didn't call you a liar, I questioned the information you were stating. Thats the part of a debate, you've done it in similar ways to me, and I just responsed, again, its part of a debate.

And again, none of those sources really state definitivly lands lost by the Orcs, now in hands of the Alliance, or were taken from the Legion or Illidari, that were previously in control by the Orcs. The only zone I would agree with, is Shadowmoon Valley, but those clans, were fully Fel Orcs, or a vast majority. All the others I mentioned in my example, were specific, and again, all pre-shattering of Draenor. But, to play devils advocate, that is going off the game map, and most in-game based lore around those areas and quests, the visual representation of Outland is rather small, but at the same time, it is what we have to go off of. It's mostly just stating, clans that fully gave themselves to the Legions, lost their lands, and really doesn't help your side, but, to be clear, doesn't really help mine either.

I think the issue is, while you follow politics and economics well, in the real world, that can often burden you down with examples and relations in thoughts to the WarCraft universe. Thats not a negative critism, something I've noticed. After a while, you (royal you not specifc) have to get in the eyes and minds of these fiction races, and their motives. I mean, you can't really think like specifc political and economic examples in terms of like, the Trolls, or the Tauren. Those are not 'savage' or 'uneducated' species, they merely just do things their way, with their own brand of politics in mind.

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I think the issue is, while you follow politics and economics well, in the real world, that can often burden you down with examples and relations in thoughts to the WarCraft universe. Thats not a negative critism, something I've noticed. After a while, you (royal you not specifc) have to get in the eyes and minds of these fiction races, and their motives. I mean, you can't really think like specifc political and economic examples in terms of like, the Trolls, or the Tauren. Those are not 'savage' or 'uneducated' species, they merely just do things their way, with their own brand of politics in mind.

I'm going to continue mostly on this because if this point isn't addressed, we are just going to run around in circles to the end of time.

The claim that "this works in the real world, but it doesn't work in a fantasy world" is only valid if there is specific evidence to show that the discussion point in question indeed doesn't work in the fantasy world. For example, chemically, transmutation is impossible, but in World of Warcraft, it IS possible. Here we have a direct contradiction of real world scientific law.

Addressing economics first: As Hayek reminded us "In economics you can never establish a truth once and for all but have always to convince every generation anew." A prime example of this is how I often find myself having to debate those who believe that economics may be "suspended" on account of culture, or governmental system. Those things may alter the inputs of the equation, but they do not change the equation's composition. You're just plugging in a different "x".

As for the Outland argument. Let me simply say this: You once owned a house, twenty years ago before the bank foreclosed on it. You've been living elsewhere during that time. Meanwhile, I purchased the house, and have been living in it for several years. Yesterday, you came to my door, and demanded my house on the grounds that you once lived there, and that your family is buried there. I would certainly be happy to sell the land and the house back to you, but instead, you claim I have no right to be there, and that I should leave without recieving a cent from you. Naturally, I am going to say that you're full of it, and you have another thing coming if you think I am going to give away my house.

The situation is not all that dissimilar from the one we are presented with in the case of Outland.

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