The_Golden_Wolf

Racial attitudes regarding physical intimacy

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...and then I realize 90% of blood elves are same-sex oriented and... there goes my theory.

Carry on!

Heh. I always figured the sexbunniness (new word! :D) was a result of the OMFG-we've-almost-been-wiped-out racial drive to procreate and replenish the species' numbers.

As for the same-sex thing, I haven't put a lot of thought into it, but I remember saying something off-the-cuff to Jabiba once when we were RPing, that it had to do with elves' very long lifespans. Same-sex sex doesn't make babies, so it was a spacing mechanism to spread children out over an elf's life. You don't really want very long-lived people (Blood Elves) or full-on immortals (Night Elves until recently) having children all over the place: serious overpopulation issue very quickly.

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Don't forget too that sex drive and public display of affection/sexuality have nothing to do with each other. Many Asian cultures are rather squeamish about seeing couples (i.e. opposite-sex couples) holding hands or kissing in public. It's considered indecent, so people are extremely reserved and, by Western standards, cold in public. Doesn't mean they don't go at it like crazed mink behind closed doors. This is also true of a number of North American indigenous cultures.

And with all the parallels for various RL cultures in the various races, there's one omission I've always been a little curious about. Since Trolls seem to live near water frequently, and given the style of their architecture, I'm surprised I haven't seen mention of the Polynesian cultures and/or some of the cultures of Papua New Guinea, such as the Korowai.

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You'd be surprised by how much many Natives find modern American society to be oversexed. It's so saturated in our media that it's kind of weird. We haven't reached crazy-ass indulgent modern day Rome society yet, but man is it getting there. I wouldn't be surprised to see a vomitorium or two pop up

Yes, many tribes practiced years (yes I said years) of abstinence to protect the physical integrity of their offspring.

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Here's the heavy. Would they consider incestuous relationships as taboo? Remember... you live forever. The taboo against incestuous relationships in our culture is based on the superstition that we all think it's gross and babies are going to have six arms when they pop out. But that's not what genetics proves. Having sex with your sibling means that any genetic trait of your family will be more likely to occur. So if your family has a history of six arms, then the percentage of the six arms occurring will be high. My question is that in a society where you live forever, wouldn't it be a smart idea for siblings to stay together so their land isn't torn asunder when/if their parents die?

Yes! Finally someone who actually knows that incest (in and of itself) doesn't automatically create deformities. And if it does, why it happens. /molests

Plus, you make a good point. There would probably be quite a bit of incestual marraiges.

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Thanks Yichi! I'd write a haiku in adoration, but that's your special thing. *grins*

So I have it in PDF form and it's taking a while to find it since it's a scan and not a real PDF (*coughEmmonstaughtmehowcough*), so I can't cmd+f it. I'll see what I can find over dinner!

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Temporary? I don't know about that. That's evolution. That's "nature finding a way". Maybe, after a while, when things start to balance out again, their hormones would change again, and while this (and, in that case, everything else in nature) can be considered a "temporary" thing, I don't think it would qualify as short term. It would likely have to last for at least a generation of successful offspring - but the amount of research into biology and anthropology to find things to back this up with is not really how I want to spend my morning. However, if subscribing to evolution and biological changes, it is rare that things just happen all of a sudden and then disappear all of a sudden - for instance, we still have an appendix, which we haven't really needed since the days before we figured out how to cook meat over the fire... as opposed to growing a third eye and then having it disappear a few years later.

The societal, behavioral, and physiological changes they have had to endure as a result of losing the Sunwell and most of their race is likely not something they would recover from in the 5-6 years since its occurance. If anything, these 5-6 years have served as the building blocks of what they are now, Sin'Dorei, and in what direction they will continue to push, much in the same way the use of Arcane magic is what catalyzed the divergence of the elves 10,000 years ago into Highborne and Kaldorei - and even more rapid changes, such as Highborne into Satyrs, or Sin'Dorei into Wretched or Fel Bloods.

While more biologically complex than frogs or sharks, I don't expect them to suddenly change sex to help "assure their reproductive success" or experience virgin births via The Light or nature, I do expect they are undergoing dramatic physiological changes to compensate for DEWM and behavioral changes that may or may not set a precedent in this new race, as a direct and damaging result of DEWM.

What they have witnessed, what they have endured -not too unlike a war veteran who "wasn't the same man when he came back"- what they were seems less and less a standard to hold them up to, compared to what they are and what they may become.

You make very valid points, and I want to make sure that It doesn't appear that I'm disregarding them. The use of fel itself would probably change their normal biology quite a bit! As far as reproductive urge, what is frequent for a belf? Once a month? Twice a month?

I suppose my initial "gripe" if you want to call it that, is that it isn't only frequency, but the whole of human sexuality that is being supplanted here. For example, why haven't their been more pregnancies if they are sexing eachother up so much? Is it just that folks don't want to RP that? Would they be using contraception as a way to prevent it? And if so, why would they if they need to repopulate? Why the lack of marriages and the frequent divorces and breakups? Wouldn't that also be a big no no in such a high class society where heirs need to be produced? What is with all the bondage and kink? The bawdy flirtations? This mirrors HUMAN society.

And you better believe nobles would be marrying off and producing babies as fast as their biology allowed.

/claps

Chop chop, get to it!

I want to see some freaking babies being made nao!

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Yes! Finally someone who actually knows that incest (in and of itself) doesn't automatically create deformities. And if it does, why it happens. /molests

Plus, you make a good point. There would probably be quite a bit of incestual marraiges.

So, wait, we can't make fun of West Virginia anymore?

In terms of marriages, or the lack thereof, I think that's just based on the individual characters. Some want marriage, some don't.

P.S. I kid West Virginia. With love.

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My take on Dwarves: (Yeah, you squeamish folk can skip over this nasty topic.)

From what I've read and seen in people's RP, Dwarves tend to be pretty reserved and even shy about sex. They might flirt with the barmaid or eye a good looking lad, but the role of family comes first and the idea of just "messing around" is rather foreign to their culture. In my travels, I've met many brothers, family men, dedicated wives, and brave adventurers who haven't settled down yet. No where does sex or sexuality seem to really come up in their RP. It's considered a private affair and, I might add, a very fun part of that private life.

Of those I've played, I have a mom with a lout of a husband and a lovely daughter, a seamstress hoping to find the right lad someday, and a semi-lost just barely out of her "teens" gal who's trying to figure it out without a family support structure. All consider it something of a private choice and not something to be aired in public. Ever.

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Hmm, personally, I have always thought that the "sexbunny" stereotypes were given to the Night Elves/Blood Elves because they are the "hottest" of the races. Humans, Draenei, and others fit there as well, but I never really figured that it was something to think about ICly since it was just people doing what they wanted on their end of the computer.

This thread brings up some interesting questions, and since most of them have to do with the social aspects of the races, I can't answer them. In my mind, we can only really guess as to how the races think and react to certain social situations. However, the points made in this thread do make sense and I applaud those who can formulate such complex social relationships in a fantasy world. /applaud =)

There is, however, another question that I have yet to see pop up and I am surprised it hasn't. It was mentioned somewhat in another thread regarding half-dragons and I pose it in this thread as well.

What of inter-racial relationships? Love can obviously grow from many sources, but what about a physical relationship between, say, a Tauren and a Dwarf? Would a Tauren even be able to have or desire a physical relationship with another race? I use Taurens since they are quite different physiologically than most of the other races. And what about half-breeds? We know that Draenei and Orcs can produce offspring (despite them having supposedly completely different evolutionary and physiological backgrounds) but whether or not they are viable offspring is unknown to me. If the offspring are viable then, from a biological standpoint, they are the same species, which is unlikely.

Alright, lets see some good, clean, brainstorming. Go!

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In terms of marriages, or the lack thereof, I think that's just based on the individual characters. Some want marriage, some don't.

Meh, I dunno. I am more apt to believe it is more of the whim of the player than anything else. Several of the races would be very marriage/family oriented from what I gather.

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I wouldn't be surprised to see a vomitorium or two pop up

Just... wanna add.... (I'm an archaeology major and had this hammered into my face all my life) Vomitoriums aren't actually rooms in which Romans went to throw up after a game. I'm not disagreeing with your point at all, just needed to correct it, and it is a common misconception. That's a thing bad historians tell tourists to make them laugh. It's actually the exit... hence where we got our word "vomit" which refers to the exit of material from ones stomach. It's where people would go to leave after a show or fight. Roman theaters still sometimes have one which allows actors to enter and exit quickly.

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why haven't their been more pregnancies if they are sexing eachother up so much? Is it just that folks don't want to RP that? Would they be using contraception as a way to prevent it? And if so, why would they if they need to repopulate? Why the lack of marriages and the frequent divorces and breakups? Wouldn't that also be a big no no in such a high class society where heirs need to be produced? What is with all the bondage and kink? The bawdy flirtations? This mirrors HUMAN society.

And you better believe nobles would be marrying off and producing babies as fast as their biology allowed.

/claps

Chop chop, get to it!

I want to see some freaking babies being made nao!

In regard to human behaviors in how their intimacies and relationships are being played out, I would be willing to theorize that they just don't get it, yet. How many are consciously aware of where the need to procreate is coming from? Must hump everything! No idea why! I just need to!

They've fallen from grace.

As well, I think a level of escapism could play into their actions. Just don't think about it. Get your thistle, get yo' bitches, party down at Satheril's, HAPPINESS IS MANDATORY - through whatever means? Do whatever it takes to fill the hole left behind by the loss of everything, don't look at the Scar, Lor'Themar will lead us to glory. /nod /smile

Bondage and kink? Just another distraction. Why do people cut themselves? To redirect the focus of pain. Physical is easier to deal with than emotional. Control and losing it in a time where pressure to have control and the desire to lose it without the world falling down around you is another way to feed escape. Distractions.

I will agree, however, that most of the flaws going into how blood elves are played are likely a direct result of the players, but that doesn't mean that such things cannot be explained away ICly as well.

As for babies... They exist! How many mommies do we have running around? Ninorra, Zelaine, Pearlle... uh, Tivian, I think? I admit that I can't keep up with every journal, or keep every name straight, and I don't hang around SMC a lot, but there are more babies floating around than I would expect from RPers, and no telling how many babies floating around that I don't have any idea about. (not to mention undead babies)

Then there are characters like mine... who think children have no place in this world. Yes, she understands the need to procreate, especially between those she considers actually worthy of having kids -she SHOULD have a kid, cause it would be the most awesome kid ever... like... savior of the galaxy- but she strongly believes that this world sucks, is likely doomed (given her guild and what she does), and having a baby would only keep her from going out and being the badass she needs to be. So while she listens to her biological urges in a surprisingly monogamous manner, she takes steps to counter any potential offspring.

In any case, I am sure there are characters out there with kids who I don't even know about, and then what about the rest of the world? NPCs in game and created in people's stories - extended family, etc - surely there are babies out there.

And yes, about the nobles thing, I agree. Infact, that is how Nym started out... engaged to a noble for influence, money, and breeding.

But, in closing...

These are all my theories, more to be taken to thought than considered any sort of real argument. People will RP how they want, no matter how much sense I think it makes or not. AND... Babies exist! But, uh... you first! >.> I'm gonna go burn my character now and have her write a live journal about it.

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All right, this cowdude can't find any reference to sexuality, baby-makin', mores or otherwise in the D20 books he has, but he just realized that they're for the Warcraft D20, not the WoW D20, so maybe that's the disconnect? Also, he just realized he's talking about himself in the third person.

Right. Time for bed.

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Ok, I am not a professor of Anthropology or some such, but I have some views none the less.

Because the Night Elves, the Draenei and the Quel'dorei (Or Sin'dorei. Using the name of the race, not their faction for this part) are so long lived, perhaps the female menstrual cycle is different? Seeing as women have all their eggs from birth, and these races are similarly sized, it seems unlikely that they have More eggs in their ovaries. As such, this leads to two possibilities does it not? Either the Cycle is longer, or they reach metaphase much faster.

Continuing this type of logic, perhaps the males are also less fertile to begin with? Perhaps their sperm count is much lower than that of a human?

I do not believe that such races are going to refrain from such activities as some are suggesting due to biological means... As they are sentient races, they commit these actions for more than procreation. They do it out of pleasure, out of love, out of passion, out of lust... many reason humans have such relations after all.

Marriage is something that would likely be uncommon due to “Death til us part”… When you live, 400, 1000… god knows how long, that isn’t so appealing necessarily. And interracial relationships? There have been a few in the lore, mostly with close allies. But, according to the RPG book (As seen on Wowwiki) the offspring are looked down upon as inferiors.

Hm, a lot of stuff written here… Perhaps I’ll have more later, but this seems good for now. I do love the Lore section.

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There is, however, another question that I have yet to see pop up and I am surprised it hasn't. It was mentioned somewhat in another thread regarding half-dragons and I pose it in this thread as well.

What of inter-racial relationships? Love can obviously grow from many sources, but what about a physical relationship between, say, a Tauren and a Dwarf? Would a Tauren even be able to have or desire a physical relationship with another race? I use Taurens since they are quite different physiologically than most of the other races. And what about half-breeds? We know that Draenei and Orcs can produce offspring (despite them having supposedly completely different evolutionary and physiological backgrounds) but whether or not they are viable offspring is unknown to me.

It is not hard to find people in the real world whose lust is not limited towards … others of their species. That alone would make it possible since, though lore typically points out the differences in racial culture, it also continually points out the similarity in psychology between the different races. Lust, defiantly possible.

Love? It would just be limited to the person one would suppose.

If the offspring are viable then, from a biological standpoint, they are the same species, which is unlikely.

Well close. Species is pretty sticky in terms of definition, but when you hear it used it this sense, it is in reference to more then just biological ability to reproduce. It is sometimes used in relation to species that don’t interbreed in the wild but could and have in human captivity (with the proper motivation). Sometimes the interbreeding occurs between two different species and the offspring just isn’t (as you put it) viable. Of course the offspring is still there and able to live, as sort of a mule, but it brings to mind whether of not all these half-elves are infertile. Also it is important to point out that while typically these mixed species animals are infertile, there have been cases where they can further reproduce. Mules are thought of as infertile because they are the mixing of two species (or vise-versa depending on how you look at it) and then every-now-and-then you find the fluke mule that can reproduce.

Oh, and to add something on that point:

All of the above is probably moot. Lore writers are not biologists and as far as we know the “genus” of all lifeforms in warcraft seems to be either magically evolved(plagued) machines or beings directly created by mystical gods.

Maybe that means they are all capable of viable offspring. Magic ftw?

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Marriage is something that would likely be uncommon due to “Death til us part”… When you live, 400, 1000… god knows how long, that isn’t so appealing necessarily. And interracial relationships? There have been a few in the lore, mostly with close allies. But, according to the RPG book (As seen on Wowwiki) the offspring are looked down upon as inferiors.

1.) Malfurion + Tyrande, they've been "lovers" (Thats how Blizzard puts it) for over a thousand years.

2.) Cenarius certainly isn't looked down upon as inferior (Hes the offspring of Elune + Malorne.

Ok...maybe the Cenarius one is stretching it a bit because he is a demi-god. However, what about Garona? She certainly wasn't looked down upon, hell she killed Llane Wrynn

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Ok...maybe the Cenarius one is stretching it a bit because he is a demi-god. However, what about Garona? She certainly wasn't looked down upon, hell she killed Llane Wrynn
Well she was looked down upon by the other orcs and only used for the assassination assignment because it was their hope that her less the full orcish features would be more of a bridge for the humans to trust her (and even then, you can count the humans that did trust her on one hand).

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Tauren:

First and foremost, tauren are basically a cow humanoid type creature. Personally, in real life i've lived on a farm my entire life. I know from my own experiences with cattle that there is no sense of fatherhood for them. The females have a very strong maternal instinct but the males could care less about their offspring. Males also couple with multiple females, they will mate with anything that comes into heat. They also try to mount each other and other species such as horses, so that might clear up some issues. Bulls will actually respond when a female is watching them through the fence and will exhibit different behavior when a woman tends them than a man. This is assuming you actually go with their species traits which we actually have an IRL record of. Hope it helps.

Grim

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Well she was looked down upon by the other orcs and only used for the assassination assignment because it was their hope that her less the full orcish features would be more of a bridge for the humans to trust her (and even then, you can count the humans that did trust her on one hand).

I don't know if she was looked down upon by the Orcs, since she was Gul'dan's chief interpretor for the Shadow Council, I'd be more scared/worried of her because of that instead of her having 1 non-orc parent. But yes, she was an outcast, but I think there were much more reasons than being a Half-Orc. Her work with the Shadow Council, befriending Khadgar, Medivh, Lothar, and Llane, and even helping them. (Before she killed Llane that is :P)

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Well' date=' if we take an anecdotal example from RL, the most sexually repressed cultures also tend to be the most secretly perverse. [/quote']

that's why i like conservative chicks. they're crazy hawt in the sack.

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Well... time for me to put my two cents in....

Blood Elves are VERY Hedonistic, the last I checked sex=pleasure, and with hedonism pleasure=highest good no matter if it brings negative consequences later on. This is why I see BE sexbunnies as perfectly plausable, as well as gays just being shrugged at. BE society is becoming very "Roman". You guys should look out... you might get a Nero.

Tauren? They're very tribal. They would probably go for life partnership over sex, and it would be very uncommon for a whore Tauren. Ones who were would probably be looked down upon.

Orcs? I think the Mongolian simmilarities are very obvious, it's perfectly fine to make those connections. I don't see many Orc whores around... so I guess this isn't a major problem.

Forsaken? Are you fucking kidding me? We're done with human emotions, and pleasure from sex is one of those feelings that is left for the living. Forsaken sex... it probably isn't even sex as you guys think it is. I would think Forsaken would get off by something else, maybe by some joint murder of a living person, or something psychic... hell if I know... I never explored that with my Forsaken. I know there are still Forsaken with human emotions (mine in particular... even if he started to drop them left and right eventually, but to say that they'd be sex bunnies? Maybe rape, but not sex.

Trolls? Sex bunnies all around just not as big of a deal. Wohoo... I think trolls are probably the people with the strongest sex drive in the game, they even top humans.

Night Elves? Nah, maybe not as many sex bunnies but there are sure to be a few. The sudden realization that they'll die someday now has probably made them go "oh... not good, time to have some fun while we can!" This doesn't mean 90% of the population is a moving sex organ...

Humans? Do I even have to say this one? We're the ones playing this damn game... you guess.(that's a yeah, maybe add another 100% onto that)

Dranei? Dranei probably look at sex in a completely pleasure-only sort of way, and probably dont' go for it in a "procreation" way. You've got to understand sentient beings have more than one purpose for sex. Dranei aren't in a hurry to procreate, even if their population is small. From what I've read Dranei births are rare.

Dwarves? Probably a slightly more tame human... if they're sober... which they never are.

Gnomes? I won't touch this one with a ten foot pole.

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Forsaken? Are you fucking kidding me? We're done with human emotions, and pleasure from sex is one of those feelings that is left for the living. Forsaken sex... it probably isn't even sex as you guys think it is. I would think Forsaken would get off by something else, maybe by some joint murder of a living person, or something psychic... hell if I know... I never explored that with my Forsaken. I know there are still Forsaken with human emotions (mine in particular... even if he started to drop them left and right eventually, but to say that they'd be sex bunnies? Maybe rape, but not sex.

You know, I was thinking of the same thing when it came to Vampires in V:TM. I know WoW and V:TM are two different premises, but hear me out.

Vampires are undead..they don't do things like humans do (well, unless your Toreador...damn human lovers) but supposedly a form of 'sex' is still on the table, and its supposedly a greater pleasure then human sex, even though they never talk about it openly.

While I am not saying that I want freaky necrophilia everywhere, but maybe there might be a similarity between Forsaken and V:TM sex? Just like how Forsaken can see without eyes, maybe there is a form of 'sex' they can partake in that stimulates them even after undeath?

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Vampires are undead..they don't do things like humans do (well, unless your Toreador...damn human lovers) but supposedly a form of 'sex' is still on the table, and its supposedly a greater pleasure then human sex, even though they never talk about it openly.

But those do it only because it helps them delude themselves into thinking they're still alive. It's only for psycho-somatic reasons. They feel nothing from the act. However, it triggers memories of their past life which they succor to manifest emotions and feelings from the past act into the present.

As for Garona, while I am pissed off Blizzard didn't kill her off, and is actually bringing the Mutt back to Life in Wrath, even though it makes absolutely no sense for Orgrim to have left her alive after he personally tortured her to get all the information about the Shadow Council before the Second War of Orcish Ascension, she was an inferior being. The only Half-Breeds that are honored are Mok'Nathal because they are as strong as an Ogre, but as smart and carries dominant features of an Orc.

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