Abric

[Discussion] Higher forms of writing?

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As one who has had to suffer through the regimented and pretentious world of so-called "formal" Creative Writing, I will first offer the following dollop of acumen for your consideration.

Do not be so swift, in your passion for this fledgling mode of art, to rush out into the world and define yourselves. Words like 'form' and 'style' typically wind up as nothing more than the literal gang rape of creativity and free expression within a given outlet of passion such as writing.

There is very likely not a single academian of 'repute' (you will note that I do not invoke that word fondly) that would think any one of you more than simple, 'low-brow' writers of smut. They would consider nearly everything that any of you have penned as little more than a repetitious regurgitation from within the conventions of an established and tired genre ghetto.

Stop treating each other as they would treat you. Their modes of art have become sickly, pretentious and contemptuous. They have quite literally soiled their pond.

To the specific points that have been raised, I offer the following opinions:

1.) No 'form' of art is 'higher' than any other. You would be best served to strike that notion from your mind.

2.) Erotic depiction and imagery has been ingrained within the artistic expression of humanity since some of the earliest scrawlings on cave walls. If you think to strike it down, or even that you are right to do so, you are being foolish.

There are extremists posting here on both sides of this issue. Try to show a little bit more respect for your peers, lest you further derail to become squabbling pockets of militarized elitists.

- Larrendias

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I have a lot to say on this matter, as I personally despise ERP and hold the belief that it killed a ton of the great RP that *was* Horde side on this server. Instead it degenerated into a bunch of baby mama drama and who was fucking who. It was like being back in high school, yet somehow even more retarded. Sex used to be a kind of exception to our RP instead of the norm.

First of all, ERP is not a higher form of writing. Its fucking cybering. Don't delude yourself that you're somehow better than people who actually interact with each other over the spontaneous course of a story arc when your biggest challenge is deciding to wait until after cunnilingus before sticking your dick into your partner, or just going ahead and doing it because it seems 'grittier'.

World of WARcraft is a World that has had its entire history built upon War (the act, not the Games Workshop game world. Well it has, but that's another argument totally.) War is interesting. Fucking your partner is not. Fantasy is about acts of heroism, barbarism (rape could be considered something here, but I definitely wouldn't consider it erotic.), and bad-ass special effects. A world built for thousands of years on continual struggle is quite honestly far more interesting than whoever your character happens to be boning this week. Even taking Zul'Aman into account.

As for ERP developing your character? I could bother to argue here, but Matt and Trey say it better.

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Has everyone gotten what they needed to get off their chest yet?

No. Still intrigued to the point that I want to meet you in-game, after reading your contributions, here.

Okay, done now.

- Larrendias

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As one who has had to suffer through the regimented and pretentious world of so-called "formal" Creative Writing, I will first offer the following dollop of acumen for your consideration.

Do not be so swift, in your passion for this fledgling mode of art, to rush out into the world and define yourselves. Words like 'form' and 'style' typically wind up as nothing more than the literal gang rape of creativity and free expression within a given outlet of passion such as writing.

There is very likely not a single academian of 'repute' (you will note that I do not invoke that word fondly) that would think any one of you more than simple, 'low-brow' writers of smut. They would consider nearly everything that any of you have penned as little more than a repetitious regurgitation from within the conventions of an established and tired genre ghetto.

Stop treating each other as they would treat you. Their modes of art have become sickly, pretentious and contemptuous. They have quite literally soiled their pond.

To the specific points that have been raised, I offer the following opinions:

1.) No 'form' of art is 'higher' than any other. You would be best served to strike that notion from your mind.

2.) Erotic depiction and imagery has been ingrained within the artistic expression of humanity since some of the earliest scrawlings on cave walls. If you think to strike it down, or even that you are right to do so, you are being foolish.

There are extremists posting here on both sides of this issue. Try to show a little bit more respect for your peers, lest you further derail to become squabbling pockets of militarized elitists.

- Larrendias

Holy crap, please tell me your form of speaking was tongue-in-cheek here.

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Personally I think this whole thread is a moot point. There is only RP for me. ERP? What is that exactly? Is it something specific above and beyond any normal story character reactions in a role play environment where love,hate, violence, sexuality and conflict can ensure? If it isn't, then how can it be a so called higher form of writing? Its rp.. plain and simple. Unless it stands alone on its own merit then it is simply cybering. It has nothing to do with the character and the story.

Just my thoughts on this.

Not to mention, it really isn't writing. Its typing duologue and emotes. You want a higher form of writing. Write a story or a journal. There are journals here that are outstanding.

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It depends on what you mean by 'ERP'.

Do you mean people just going "/me fucks so-and-so so hard UNF UNF UNF!" or someone who is actually putting more effort and trying to convey feelings and emotions?

Are you talking about the people who cyber in public places, strip their characters in the inn and sit on the beds on top of each other (I really don't care if it's in party chat or not... if I see people doing this, I know what you're doing, even if you deny it), or who write those kinds of scenes for other reasons not including exhibitionism somewhere where it's not easy to find them?

For myself, I sometimes like to see if I can write something like that better than those cheesey romance novel authors, or if I can possibly do better than whoever it is that writes up scrips for pornos. Why? Because some of the best writers in the world can have the imagination make the reader feel like they're not only looking through the eyes of the character, but are the character.

So, pardon me if I don't agree with the stigma that people who 'ERP' (aka: cyber) are all horrible RPers because they like to play out sex scenes. Just because you don't doesn't mean anything in regards to whether or not you're the better person for NOT doing so.

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It depends on what you mean by 'ERP'.

Do you mean people just going "/me fucks so-and-so so hard UNF UNF UNF!" or someone who is actually putting more effort and trying to convey feelings and emotions?

Respondents are divided as to whether there's a difference, but the general consensus is that if it's good RP, it's good RP, no matter what MPAA rating is attached to it.

Be right back, off to research methods of turning a dead horse into glue.

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So, pardon me if I don't agree with the stigma that people who 'ERP' (aka: cyber) are all horrible RPers because they like to play out sex scenes.

See I guess this is where for me I feel it is perspective. I don't view ERP and Cybering as being the same thing. 'ERP' doesn't exist for me. There is only character rp. If that leads to some erotic "erp" scenario so be it. If its part of the character and story then it is role play. I don't equate that to cybering, which for me is acting out sex scenes in isolation without any rhyme or reason as it relates to the characters. i.e. if it is basically nothing more than an online hookup. I don't see that as artistic in any way.

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Wow. Yeah, to me ERP is not cybering. In fact I'd think to any person who's ERPed it isn't cybering. Cybering has nothing to do with plot and it could be done in any old chatroom with or without any specific character in mind. ERP isn't always "I put my wang in your vag." There's a lot more to it than that and quite frankly you need to get the hell out of Silvermoon City and stop spending time with that level 10 named "honeyteets" if you think that's all it is.

STOP CALLING IT CYBERING! It's downright rude. We get it, you don't like ERPers. Go to hell.

Now, this discussion is about ERP. Not cyber.

RP is difficult. ERP is also difficult. All I personally am saying is that in ERP one must make something original out of a very unoriginal idea. You're given a cake recipe and Kaga is not going to be impressed if you don't use the secret ingredient of the day to spice things up! Sex is in essence a very boring thing which ERPers must find a way to make NOT boring. In all other RP you can think up all kinds of situations with which to not make things repetitive and boring, but ERPers don't really have the option of doing different sorts of things. It's just plain old same old sex. And that's why I feel it's ever so slightly more difficult.

Now, no where in all of this post did I write "Reg'lar RP is for lame-os! Lolzor!" and no one said they were better people than any one else in this thread. Don't start reading things that aren't there. So I really don't see what the big deal is and why people are busting in here with their sarcasm and attacks on ERPers with "Wow. Good for you. You can RP putting a wang in a vag." You don't like to ERP good for you, go ahead and don't ERP, but don't insult what ERPers do in the process of defending your mysteriously hurt ego. Hell, you don't think it's a "higher" form of RP, fine. I can accept that (especially since I don't really agree with using that word for it) and am willing to discuss, but how about we not act like 10 year olds. That's not really "discussing" the idea when you're making personal jabs.

I'd also like to add, to you last three posters, I really like your ideas. Truthfully I'd never considered ERP just as RP due to the extreme need which everyone has to separate it. I mean, it's even mentioned and suddenly you're considered an odd ball. *points at peoples violent reactions* It is a nice thought to just consider it RP with no additional labels. I mean, good RPers can blend all aspects of their character together anyways, and it's not like I ever say to myself "Alright, time for me to stop RPing and go ERP." For me it's just that I really hate the "fade to black" BS. I also think calling it ERP helps to separate the ERP-friendly (those that don't instantly freak out at it's mention) and the anti-ERPers so that you can find those you're more comfortable RPing openly with, and without fearing of a sudden "OMFG! YOU ERP! EW! I DON'T WANNA RP WITH YOU NO MORE!"

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Wise man say: there is nothing new under sun.

Truth.

I'd also like to add, to you last three posters, I really like your ideas. Truthfully I'd never considered ERP just as RP due to the extreme need which everyone has to separate it. I mean, it's even mentioned and suddenly you're considered an odd ball. *points at peoples violent reactions* It is a nice thought to just consider it RP with no additional labels. I mean, good RPers can blend all aspects of their character together anyways, and it's not like I ever say to myself "Alright, time for me to stop RPing and go ERP." For me it's just that I really hate the "fade to black" BS. I also think calling it ERP helps to separate the ERP-friendly (those that don't instantly freak out at it's mention) and the anti-ERPers so that you can find those you're more comfortable RPing openly with, and without fearing of a sudden "OMFG! YOU ERP! EW! I DON'T WANNA RP WITH YOU NO MORE!"

This is a good approach - I don't mind those who want to go past 'fade to black', but I don't.

Doesn't mean I won't RP with ya.

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I have ERP'd when I played Solenev regularly.

It was all ding-dong in the hole no matter what I as a roleplayer did. This was with some of the better RPers on the server too. When you're waiting on them to respond it's cyber.

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Mental stimulation > physical stimulation for some people, myself included.

I do not ERP any more (cyber and ERP are a bit different just to note - I've seen both types and cyber is very much a lesser form of ERP) but I used to. It was fun. And it did help me develop myself as a role player in whole - why? Because I know how to freak up a woman in fifty assorted ways? No. Because the people I role played with were good role players, and their styles and techniques rolled off on me. I'm not saying I retained all of my role play goodness (just like I haven't retained calculus) but it still helped develop to where I am now.

ERP, in itself, is not the overall issue in my eyes. It's just that - when that's -all- you do, it's kind of - wait, refrase - it's very annoying.

"Hi, my name is Joe Blow, my character is a sex fiend and I want to do it allll night loooong" errr....no.

"We had a wonderful picnic tonight Joe Blow, and I really liked the flowers, I find myself falling in love with you" ...yes.

There's a right way and a wrong way going about it. Getting to 'it' shouldn't be the primary goal either, it should come and go with RP as the seasons change. And just because you 'got down' with a character doesn't mean you can just show up every night after that for a 'booty call'. No. ERP should not, in my opinion, be the every-waking reason to RP.

So, two characters had some fun, you both show up the next day wanting to see each other again, right? Of course you do! But maybe you go back to your daily routines as that was just a special night, or maybe it's time to go discuss what you're going to tell your friends and loved ones. Then you go and slay some scourge because, well, it's the right thing to do in this war-torn world.

So, when it comes to Silvermoon and Goldshire, the fact that they do these things in public isn't what most annoys me (though it does annoy me) it's the fact that - that's all they do! Get out and get some diversity in your role play you lunatics! >_>

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This was with some of the better RPers on the server too.

I expect better of someone like Skafloc! (J/K <3)

Seriously, that surprises me though. I like writing ERP stories inspired by things that happened in RP. Like when we were talking in OOC about how Nin's family is really hot, and we ended up having incest-themed dream RPs. I got a kick out of those. specially when her brother woke up screaming, and her sister was more like, "Huh. Well, maybe.. no wait, no!"

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Wow. Yeah, to me ERP is not cybering. In fact I'd think to any person who's ERPed it isn't cybering. Cybering has nothing to do with plot and it could be done in any old chatroom with or without any specific character in mind. ERP isn't always "I put my wang in your vag." There's a lot more to it than that and quite frankly you need to get the hell out of Silvermoon City and stop spending time with that level 10 named "honeyteets" if you think that's all it is.

STOP CALLING IT CYBERING! It's downright rude. We get it, you don't like ERPers. Go to hell.

Now, this discussion is about ERP. Not cyber.

RP is difficult. ERP is also difficult. All I personally am saying is that in ERP one must make something original out of a very unoriginal idea. You're given a cake recipe and Kaga is not going to be impressed if you don't use the secret ingredient of the day to spice things up! Sex is in essence a very boring thing which ERPers must find a way to make NOT boring. In all other RP you can think up all kinds of situations with which to not make things repetitive and boring, but ERPers don't really have the option of doing different sorts of things. It's just plain old same old sex. And that's why I feel it's ever so slightly more difficult.

Now, no where in all of this post did I write "Reg'lar RP is for lame-os! Lolzor!" and no one said they were better people than any one else in this thread. Don't start reading things that aren't there. So I really don't see what the big deal is and why people are busting in here with their sarcasm and attacks on ERPers with "Wow. Good for you. You can RP putting a wang in a vag." You don't like to ERP good for you, go ahead and don't ERP, but don't insult what ERPers do in the process of defending your mysteriously hurt ego. Hell, you don't think it's a "higher" form of RP, fine. I can accept that (especially since I don't really agree with using that word for it) and am willing to discuss, but how about we not act like 10 year olds. That's not really "discussing" the idea when you're making personal jabs.

I'd also like to add, to you last three posters, I really like your ideas. Truthfully I'd never considered ERP just as RP due to the extreme need which everyone has to separate it. I mean, it's even mentioned and suddenly you're considered an odd ball. *points at peoples violent reactions* It is a nice thought to just consider it RP with no additional labels. I mean, good RPers can blend all aspects of their character together anyways, and it's not like I ever say to myself "Alright, time for me to stop RPing and go ERP." For me it's just that I really hate the "fade to black" BS. I also think calling it ERP helps to separate the ERP-friendly (those that don't instantly freak out at it's mention) and the anti-ERPers so that you can find those you're more comfortable RPing openly with, and without fearing of a sudden "OMFG! YOU ERP! EW! I DON'T WANNA RP WITH YOU NO MORE!"

This.

There's a fine line between ERP and cyber for me. Cyber is when someone approaches me OOC saying or attempting to ask for "erp" on some non-character basis or IC "but it doesn't count" style. I firmly tell people when I'm asked this, "I don't cyber. It's lame." Why? Because cyber = 0 creativity, it's just let's cyber fuck each other then carry on as if nothing happened. Hell, on my oldest server someone who was obsessed with my character/me wanted me to watch him masturbate on his webcam and have me talk dirty to him. That's blatant cyber right there, and can't be yelled any louder than that. Often, as well, cyber occurs on a different messaging service, AIM, MSN or whatever.

Cyber is also often taken in game, as those level 10 sluts who only look for "erp" which possibly borderline erp/cyber. They are acting IC to a minimal extent but ultimately doing it just to gain the cyber sex out of it, which from my observations usually is the worst and most ridiculous style of erp or even cyber. People with poorly constructed sentences, atrocious grammar, spelling, short one to two phrase sentences and they call it erp, hell, that's not even English. Need a fine example? This was from someone who followed suspicious people knowing they were seeking erp, and this is the exact shit that good rp'ers get stereotyped for.

(Links not safe for work. - Izrail)

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x162/Glensmen/RP/WoWScrnShot_080908_005528.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x162/Glensmen/RP/WoWScrnShot_080908_010246.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x162/Glensmen/RP/WoWScrnShot_080908_010453.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x162/Glensmen/RP/WoWScrnShot_080908_010814.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x162/Glensmen/RP/WoWScrnShot_080908_011020.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x162/Glensmen/RP/WoWScrnShot_080908_011603.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x162/Glensmen/RP/WoWScrnShot_080908_011743.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x162/Glensmen/RP/WoWScrnShot_080908_012226.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x162/Glensmen/RP/WoWScrnShot_080908_012234.jpg

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x162/Glensmen/RP/WoWScrnShot_080908_012342.jpg

This is what most non-erp'ers look at and judge other rp'ers on. That somehow every rp'er who erps, erps like this. No. Look at that, no emotion, no story, no real purpose, hell, I can go as far to say why the hell would you fuck an undead? It must be the rotting fleshing and smell.

Now, I'll boldly use my own RP logs from my old server, an event which occurred earlier this summer. Romance that leads to erp.

(Removed explicit material. - Izrail.)

The dinner:

[04:19:35] Moona smiles girlishly as she feeds him the fresh salmon. Her eyes study his expressions, his actions and every detail she could physically see on him. She then sets the fork back down to the plate and slides her chair closer to his, thighs nearly touching. -

[04:21:00] Moona 's right arm glides over his shoulders as she relaxes it there, leaning her forehead to his. She then cuts with his fork another small piece and offers it to him. Every moment, every second of this dinner, of her purest of passion drives her eyes to -

[04:22:31] Moona *constantly swirl to a deeper violet. Her scent strong now, both natural and artificial. The smell of her shampoo, her perfume, the natural aroma of her skin all blended in one. Her lips faintly brace across his cheek as she awaits for him to bite.

The steam:

[05:11:52] Moona made no attempt to stop his course of actions, rather instead urged him on by clawing at his body with a thirsty need as if he were to read her thoughts. Her burning heat boiled from deep within her womb to have him seize her and make her his forever. -

[05:13:31] Moona lowers her head and showers small rough kisses that were broken by tiny grunts and broken gasps of breaths on the top of his head. Her hips shift and grind softly against his thigh, her matching white thong bracing his body. Her hesitations and worries -

[05:14:46] Moona *were uplifted. Everything around her seemingly gone. Trapped with the man of her greatest dreams ever who wanted her as bad as she wanted him. Unconsciously acting, her hands discovered their ways to his pants easily pulling down at the fabric.

The romance:

< Has been edited out and will be posted if interested via request in private messages >

Sure, erp has more physical details than emotional but nonetheless it contains everything. At least for me. The romance was there, the setting was perfect and course of actions justified. This wasn't some lamely set up situation just to get erp going, this was a moment to last and to remember, a combination of lust and romance and executed well IMO.

This was RP and ERP and I do sometimes draw a blurry line between them. If I'm really impressed with my partner's RP, I say "your rp is amazing!" Much the same if their ERP is amazing. I wouldn't say "your rp was amazing!" I mean maybe, but to be specific, I'd say ERP.

So for those who argue that erp is cyber, specify where in my samples (if they are any good) when it is cyber and when it is not. From the dinner, to the heated moment to the moment of intercourse. Was it everything entirely or only when sexual terms are being thrown around? Also compare my rp to the screen shot rp. Are those who argue against erp claiming it cyber for horny kids saying mine is the same maybe just has more fancy words? If that's so then perhaps your rp doesn't have considerable involvement of emotions. Now by no means am I saying you must erp to show affection of love, lust, passion, desire and what not, but you shouldn't say "erp is just cyber".

I've erp'd with people who were married irl. Are they over there stroking it? Maybe? I don't care. The ones I did do it with even had their wife watch him erp with me and they liked the ideas and the rp with it. It's not all for arousal or to bust-a-nut (drink booty sweat baby! (movie reference)), sometimes though, it happens with other people, and on other occasions it's more enticing/erotic to know that the other person is touching him/herself on the other side. Then it starts to turn to an argument of if that's cyber or not, but I'll tell you, I like it knowing the guy on the other side is aroused by my rp. Means I'm doing something right. I don't need this approval to influence my rp but little additives don't hurt. And if he doesn't get off to erp, whatever, it's still there, the rp/erp, and we're both participating it and enjoying the time together. If he didn't like it he wouldn't do it as some people have clearly stated.

Compare it to phone sex if you've ever done it when your partner is far away. He/she wants you to be aroused, wants you to touch yourself and phone sex can very easily be lead up to from a normal conversation to "i miss you" to "i want to do this to you". Maybe this example is bad... I'll leave it in the open.

If you've any questions as to my RP then feel free to send me a personal message and not post it on here unless it's absolutely relevant to the topic. (And yes, my character bathes often and I do sometimes RP out when she goes flower picking to make her soaps)

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ERP Is a form of Art to some usaly handeld with care, Not just randomly done involving YOUR own ridiculas ideas. Some choose to write it in the form of a story to make the regular RP much more Flavorfull, In turn ERP benefits those mature and adult enogh to go through with it making thier RP a better Storyline.

All though many missconception of most people who ERP are very inexperinced. they happen to do things that would make the other partner quite uncomftrable ruining the moment causing problems and tension that gives off a "Wierd" feeling. Thats why It should be taken slow and with upmost detail. Pausing thinking of what next move would best make the ERP suitible for both.

I myself Enjoy my ERP, I treat it Like art and every new ERP is a new story to write. And when I do, I do my best to hit every fantasy the person i am ERPING with come to life because I know they will enjoy it and as will I. I happen to like seeing people I ERP with come back and say " That was very hot ERP" or " Your really good at this that was great". It makes me happy that I could make them feel well through my writing style. ERP Is much more then just "Cyber" It's a form of art. Those ignorant enogh to just go through it like just Sex Ruin it for us.

And yes as pearlle Said Cyber is just getting to the point, While ERP is describing every sexual detail of the moment from every curve,tip,end,and even feel. Detail is the key that seperates Boring repetetive (Cyber) and Descripted Sexual experince (ERP).

Excuse my very crude English people i apologize I only took about two years of english

((Spain ftl...))

Honostly Cyber looses its touch very fast.

ERP is always amazing, New ways to go new things to explore.

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The stigma against ERP is as Soa put:

1. Some people do it horribly bad.

2. Some people use it to get off.

Now, there's a stigma against looking at pr0nz or "erotic art" or whatever the hell you want to call it - whether that stigma is right or wrong isn't the issue - it's THERE.

Have you ever read a good book that had a chapter that contained sex? Did you enjoy the book any less? I have, and I know I didn't. It can add to a piece of literature - if used properly. Don't just throw it around willy nilly.

Now, I'm not one to prejudice people for doing whatever the hell they want to do - if you WANT to have meaningless sex over the internet, go for it! Though you should keep it private, stuff IS against the ToS for kids to go around seeing sex0r in their pretendy fun time games.

I don't think sex is neccessary to have a good storyline (even with lust, romance, etc) but if you want to, as I stated, go ahead. Just cause it's not something I enjoy doing doesn't mean I'm going to look down on people who do. That's subscribing to ignorance and prejudice. Not doing that.

BUT: When you start displaying it on your sleeve and rubbing it in people's face that you RP sex, and your character loves teh hawt womenzz.. gtfo. That's just a bad character concept for this game - and I do believe when you RP in this game it should FIT INTO THE GAME.

I'd wager those "bads" are people who find roleplaying during sex to be a fetish, and are doing it over the internet as opposed to in person. That's not WoW RP, that's sex RP. Don't confuse them.

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Have you ever read a good book that had a chapter that contained sex? Did you enjoy the book any less? I have, and I know I didn't. It can add to a piece of literature - if used properly. Don't just throw it around willy nilly.

Wise man say: it's bad if it's written badly.

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ERP, in itself, is not the overall issue in my eyes. It's just that - when that's -all- you do, it's kind of - wait, refrase - it's very annoying.

"Hi, my name is Joe Blow, my character is a sex fiend and I want to do it allll night loooong" errr....no.

I ran into someone like that in game. His name was even suggestive, though I didn't think about it until later. xD We ERP'd once, very IC for that particular character that moment, and after that every time I logged in he was like "Wanna ERP?" @ o;; I had to finally say "Look, I don't ERP all that much, and it's something very character related to me, and it's just not something this character would do right now. Though, I have another Blood Elf that'll ERP... and then steal all your mana and leave you for dead... maybe a couple of stab wounds." He left me alone after that. xD

This is what most non-erp'ers look at and judge other rp'ers on. That somehow every rp'er who erps, erps like this. No. Look at that, no emotion, no story, no real purpose, hell, I can go as far to say why the hell would you fuck an undead? It must be the rotting fleshing and smell.

Omg! I cracked up. I seriously wish the lol-erps would at least put it in party. I mean, hell. I take it to party sometimes when we're not even doing the "low down" erp.

I'm coming to the conclusion that everyone who's been saying "ERP sux cause it involves peen! Ur lame," and obviously not reading anything all of us have been saying, really has never ERPed, nor have they reach past the age of 15.

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