Fhenrir

Ret Paladins

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Well, I haven't played done the "sheathadin" thing yet, but I think that shockadin as a playstyle is entirely and completely dead. The changes to how seals work totally nerfed the burst potential, and full holy in holy gear gives you the spellpower to have chunky shock crits anyway. Also, I wouldn't say it's like shockadin except that it's another kinda "fringe" hybrid spec for Paladins. Shockadin's thing was good heals and insane ridiculous unnecessarily large burst, which doesn't seem like the direction this spec takes at all. All that said... Sheath spec IS interesting.

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Ha! You guys haven't been in the heroic five-mans I've been healing, obviously...freaking clothies always want to steal all the aggros! Beacon of Light I used through about 70% of the instance, despite the mana cost.

What I find more useless is the talents that come before that, that give you more healing or haste when you do judgements on enemies. Those are completely useless - unless it's only your focus getting nailed for damage. Most raids and heroics, I'm too busy healing everyone to stop and go "You know, i'm going to go waste two-one second global cooldowns to seal and judgement this mob so I get faster heals!" ...not going to happen.

I might spec up to beacon of light again next time I have to respec, but I'll be taking the other talents that are useless (lowering disease/curse time, lowering fear duration, etc) that are passive, rather then use the judgement talents.

Oh, and on the note that 'Ret pallies damage should be right around Enhancement shaman damage' - the problem with that is that pallies wear plate, shaman only wear mail. Pallies should be just under enhancement, but have more survivability.

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Oh, and on the note that 'Ret pallies damage should be right around Enhancement shaman damage' - the problem with that is that pallies wear plate, shaman only wear mail. Pallies should be just under enhancement, but have more survivability.

PLATE ARMOR =! SURVIVABILITY

Biggest misconception EVER. Yes, it helps against a few classes in the game (impacts warriors and rogues the most) but for the most part armor doesn't fucking matter because you're being pelted by a mage's fireball or eaten by a warlock's DoTs, which don't give a flying dickshit about armor.

Also, plate armor is not an excuse to do less damage.

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PLATE ARMOR =! SURVIVABILITY

Biggest misconception EVER. Yes, it helps against a few classes in the game (impacts warriors and rogues the most) but for the most part armor doesn't fucking matter because you're being pelted by a mage's fireball or eaten by a warlock's DoTs, which don't give a flying dickshit about armor.

Also, plate armor is not an excuse to do less damage.

This I heard the excuse of plate armor for a long time specially with pvp healing wear priests and other healers are like "Give me your plate armor then!" I would just *snickers* "Here you go if you want it trade you for your mobility and HoTs," "Ok!" *snickers more* "suckers."

I hate plate armor I've seen disc priests take more then me and I got to say that is some leet cloth then. Really out of the 9 classes currently plate armor only helps against warriors, rogues and feral druids, with ret pallies and enchance shammies to a extend only cause they have magic dmg attacks in their rotations to bypass armor. Maybe in WotLK might mitigate some Blood DKs but Frost and Unholy will be bypassing it with frost and shadow dmg. It makes me a sad panda

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What I find more useless is the talents that come before that, that give you more healing or haste when you do judgements on enemies. Those are completely useless - unless it's only your focus getting nailed for damage. Most raids and heroics, I'm too busy healing everyone to stop and go "You know, i'm going to go waste two-one second global cooldowns to seal and judgement this mob so I get faster heals!" ...not going to happen.

Two things:

2 gcds in 1 minute to give you 15% haste. Assuming you are spamming 1.5 second spells, and you have 60-3 seconds to do it in (assuming you don't let the haste fall off) you can cast 44 FoL spells. Without the haste, you can cast in 60 seconds (so not putting up the seal and judge) exactly 40 FoL spells. So, not hasting for any fight that is a minute or longer is actually hurting your output.

Second, with the Glyph of Seal of Light, just having the damn seal up increases your output by 5%. You can't possibly tell me that's not worth it!

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PLATE ARMOR =! SURVIVABILITY

Biggest misconception EVER. Yes, it helps against a few classes in the game (impacts warriors and rogues the most) but for the most part armor doesn't fucking matter because you're being pelted by a mage's fireball or eaten by a warlock's DoTs, which don't give a flying dickshit about armor.

Also, plate armor is not an excuse to do less damage.

Maybe Plate armor doesn't, but a bubble that gives you 100% immunity does. Instant Flash heals when you crit melee does. Getting a HoT from critting does. Having spells that automatically unensnare you does. Not to mention the fun trinkets you can get, the two stuns that last for ungodly amounts of time, oh, and on top of all that, being able to do insane amounts of damage by putting on a two-hander, being able to do double damage with it, and be able to swing it instantly twice in a row, and kill most other players within mere seconds.

No, not overpowered at all.

Take the shaman. Yes they can do damage. They can heal themselves too! But as an enhancement shaman, you get ZERO talents in the enhancement tree to improve your healing, get HoTs, or anything of the sort. Do they get a bubble? No, the closest thing they get is 30% reduced damage for 15 seconds. And, if you look at the enhancement tree really good, you'll notice there are a hell of a lot of talents you need to take to buff up your damage.

Paladins only need so many, and they get +healing and healing to the entire party to boot.

Ret Paladins = Enhancement Shamans? Fuck no. Paladins have more survivability then shamans. So, why should they also get the same damage, again? Oh, and did we mention that Ret Paladins can heal JUST AS WELL IF NOT BETTER then holy paladins? What the splork?

Over. Powered.

Two things:

2 gcds in 1 minute to give you 15% haste. Assuming you are spamming 1.5 second spells, and you have 60-3 seconds to do it in (assuming you don't let the haste fall off) you can cast 44 FoL spells. Without the haste, you can cast in 60 seconds (so not putting up the seal and judge) exactly 40 FoL spells. So, not hasting for any fight that is a minute or longer is actually hurting your output.

Second, with the Glyph of Seal of Light, just having the damn seal up increases your output by 5%. You can't possibly tell me that's not worth it!

Yeah, maybe I'm just not into hitting AND healing at the same time. I mean, if I were Retribution or Shadow and healing the party by doing damage? That's a bit easier for me to handle, personally. But the hitting people just to get mana and increased speed on heals seems a bit too much for me. I'll probably just keep with protection, and see if I can get Ela'Jinn up to 80 eventually. Priests are my kind of healer >_>

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Maybe Plate armor doesn't, but a bubble that gives you 100% immunity does. Instant Flash heals when you crit melee does. Getting a HoT from critting does. Having spells that automatically unensnare you does. Not to mention the fun trinkets you can get, the two stuns that last for ungodly amounts of time, oh, and on top of all that, being able to do insane amounts of damage by putting on a two-hander, being able to do double damage with it, and be able to swing it instantly twice in a row, and kill most other players within mere seconds.

No, not overpowered at all.

Take the shaman. Yes they can do damage. They can heal themselves too! But as an enhancement shaman, you get ZERO talents in the enhancement tree to improve your healing, get HoTs, or anything of the sort. Do they get a bubble? No, the closest thing they get is 30% reduced damage for 15 seconds. And, if you look at the enhancement tree really good, you'll notice there are a hell of a lot of talents you need to take to buff up your damage.

Paladins only need so many, and they get +healing and healing to the entire party to boot.

Ret Paladins = Enhancement Shamans? Fuck no. Paladins have more survivability then shamans. So, why should they also get the same damage, again? Oh, and did we mention that Ret Paladins can heal JUST AS WELL IF NOT BETTER then holy paladins? What the splork?

Over. Powered.

I'm not arguing that the combination of CC, Defensive, and Offensive burst capabilities MADE them overpowered, but keep in mind the new paradigm:

With Spell Power, hybrids CAN clutch heal, but at the cost of mana which could be used for other things (See: Nerf to JotW, Enhancement Shamans) and yes, Paladins have bubble and HoF, but Shamans have Ghost Wolf, a snare (Frost Shock), an extremely potent group buff for melee (bloodlust), and totems. They're more on the offensive side, but lack the defensive capabilities. Their BASE damage should be nearly the same, but in a spike, yeah, enhancement shamans will deal more damage - which is why they nerfed pally burst - at the point it WAS at, it was overpowered.

Once all the changes go through? They'll be fine. Though they do need to buff JotW a bit so they're not stuck only using damaging abilities, and being unable to use any utility due to no mana - and being uber susceptible to mana burns.

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I'm not arguing that the combination of CC, Defensive, and Offensive burst capabilities MADE them overpowered, but keep in mind the new paradigm:

With Spell Power, hybrids CAN clutch heal, but at the cost of mana which could be used for other things (See: Nerf to JotW, Enhancement Shamans) and yes, Paladins have bubble and HoF, but Shamans have Ghost Wolf, a snare (Frost Shock), an extremely potent group buff for melee (bloodlust), and totems. They're more on the offensive side, but lack the defensive capabilities. Their BASE damage should be nearly the same, but in a spike, yeah, enhancement shamans will deal more damage - which is why they nerfed pally burst - at the point it WAS at, it was overpowered.

Once all the changes go through? They'll be fine. Though they do need to buff JotW a bit so they're not stuck only using damaging abilities, and being unable to use any utility due to no mana - and being uber susceptible to mana burns.

I'm not sure it really will be fine...I still like Reg's idea that if you pick up Divine Storm you lose your Divine Shield. It makes sense to me.

And just to note, I never liked Retribution. >_>

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I'm not sure it really will be fine...I still like Reg's idea that if you pick up Divine Storm you lose your Divine Shield. It makes sense to me.

And just to note, I never liked Retribution. >_>

Eh, no.

They need that immunity - what made it overpowered was that it could be used to just kill kill kill with no cost at that epic burst scale - with that burst scale gone, it just becomes a powerful tool, like any other classes' powerful tools, only different.

WTF UNIQUENESS HAX.

Plus it's really good to get heals off - I think any class could take a retadin without its bubble. (once the damage is nerfed)

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I'm not sure it really will be fine...I still like Reg's idea that if you pick up Divine Storm you lose your Divine Shield. It makes sense to me.

And just to note, I never liked Retribution. >_>

That is the worst idea I have -ever- heard in the history of how to tweak paladins.

Throughout Paladin history the bubble has been absolutely -necessary- to survive in pvp. We're squishier than Warriors without it ffs. Removing the divine shield would remove -any- current real viability we have in PvP.

Just because you don't like a spec doesn't mean it's crap, or that other people don't enjoy it, or that it can't/shouldn't be viable in situations.

Was the burst too much? Hell yeah. Does that mean we should be nerfed to the point of uselessness? F*** no. -I- still want to have a spec that can be reckoned with. -I- don't want to put on a skirt and heal. And -I- won't HIDE behind a shield (That line from Blizzard still makes me laugh. Also, those references are for humor only.

<Villayna snipped some minor personal attacks>

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As a note, I rolled a paladin.

Not a cleric.

Not a tankadin.

Not a Retadin.

I want to see all of my trees functional

Agree. Just because I prefer ret doesn't mean ANY spec should be useless.

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<Villayna snipped>

I'll answer your post to the best of my extent.

It's not ignorance - far from it. I've tried being retribution before. Looking at the new skill tree makes me want to vomit. I've played a paladin for approximately 70% of my wow career (the first character I got to 60 was a human paladin, then we made the switch to TN, and when TBC came out I did paladin -again-) and I've always preferred Protection to holy or Retribution. I've played holy plenty of times too, hell I've been healing for the past two days in raids and heroics, because people needed me to switch and I was more then happy to oblige. I go where people need me.

As for Retribution, the only way it should be viable is in the leveling department. I personally leveled straight prot, but enough about me. It does better damage then protection and holy (probably combined now) but in turn they should be squishier, just like a Fury/arms spec is squishier then a protection spec.

Do fury/arms retain their ability to shield wall? Fuck no, they get to use retaliation and suck it up if they die too quick. They also don't get HEALS, which is why paladins are squishier (mitigation and health wise) because they have a MANA bar and can HEAL themselves. I'm caps locking just to highlight the biggest parts of what I said. Fury/arms/prot warriors CAN NOT heal themselves in 1.5 seconds (or instant if you crit!), which is why they are less squishy. The most they have is bandages, if I'm not mistaken (Just looked it up and remembered - arms has Second Wind and Fury gets Bloodlust, niether of which heal for anywhere near what a paladin can bust out).

Taking away Divine Shield is not ignorant, in fact, it's not even enough. If you take away Divine Shield, you still have Divine Protection, which is equal to a Prot Warrior's Shield wall (and Divine Protection can be used without a shield!).

Retribution. Does. Not. Deserve. As. Much. Damage. They have way more survivability then Arms/Fury Warriors and Enhancement Shaman. Paladins =/= Warriors =/= Shaman =/= Rogues =/= Mages.

The way that Paladins were set up pre-TBC and pre-hordegetspaladinsandalliesgetshaman was that Shaman were offensive, as stated by Yatokth, and Pallies were more defensive. Where Shaman did not have the survivability of a paladin, they had more damage to kill things faster before they died. Where Paladins had less damage then shaman, they had more survivability thus they could take a beating over a greater amount of time and thus defeat stronger opponents and not have to worry about dying (I've solo'd elites that were meant for 2-3 players, it took a hell of a long time but I did it. I also killed mobs that were RED to me in level, and I sat there and thought -THAT- was overpowered - Ret paladins now? Are helluva overpowered).

But ever since WoW was invented (practically) allies and horde have been crying that 'their class' didn't get enough of the 'other's class' until finally Blizzard broke down to the whining and went 'ok, paladins get super damage now' while shaman pretty much got nothing else in the survivability department (if I'm not mistaken). Personally, I think they should have given Shaman Cyclone as druids have so many different survivability tactics already, but I digress.

So now, Paladins retained the survivability of 'old game' and have damage of 'new game' making them imbalanced. Though, with hunters and druids being over powered (for the longest time) and having not changed, I guess I can't expect for the same to happen to the newly overbuffed Ret paladins.

The current changes to paladins to 'nerf' the ret paladins hurts all cases of paladins, and doesn't do much for Ret paladins damage. Rather then nerfing things that affect all paladins, just give them their damage, but take away their 100% bubble. Fair trade in my educated opinion. You get your 'new game' damage, and we (non ret pallies/any other class) get the ability to actually kill you. before you auto kill us in a few seconds, while 100% immune to anything we do.

Edit - But you still get Lay on Hands for insta-full health. Oh, and Divine Protection for 50% Less damage taken. And Holy Light. And Flash of Light. And the ability to get instant heals on crit. And the ability to get HoT's on crit. And the ability to auto get out of snares and roots. And the ability to ... well, I think you get my point. You can HAVE YOUR DAMAGE. Just give me MY SHIELD back. You don't need it.

Edit 2 - Ret paladins wouldn't be useless without their 100% bubble, or having their bubble and not doing as much damage. It's a balancing game. In fact, if I had the choice, I would take away Ret's HoT and give it to holy, because that's where it belongs.

<Villayna snipped some minor personal attacks>

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I have no idea what the Hell this is even about, but err.... lol?

Sad, sad day when a Paladin QQ's about buffs to their own class.

Hey, nothing wrong with buffs to your class a whole, but when a ret paladin can single-handedly beat down you and an elemental shaman without breaking a sweat...it doesn't take a genius to figure out something doesn't add up.

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I admit Retribution paladins are a challenge, at least for me as a shaman. Yes in some cases they seem OP (I mean I have mostly the blue PVP set and 275 resil on Rashok.) But class disparities aside the class needed something, anything for a positive change. In the history of the warcraft universe what were paladins? They were not healbots or tanks in any sense of lore.

They were warriors, warriors imbued with the light, I think the purest tree for the paladin class is Retribution. They should kill, they should be good at killing because at the heart, that is what their role in military society was. Holy leaders that raped face.

Translate that to Wow, I used to duel ret pallies pre-BC naked on my hunter and win. Not to say they were bad or I was ZOMGZ NUDIE LEETSAWZ, but the class had issues. It's about time they were improved, yes it's a challenge if you don't know how to fight one, most people are used to the "LOL RETZ" they run it like a braindead fungus and get spanked rather than use tactics.

The idea to remove divine shield for ret or make it a spec type spell is along the lines of putting a screen door on a submarine. It seems like a good idea till you actually think about it. Geared ret pallies that are good at their class still loose, I was watching duels yesterday with an exceptionally well played ret pally and they won/lost about the same. Even with bubble they are easily kitable, and in a mass PVP environment are no harder to take down that before, now people just cannot run face first and expect to go toe to toe with them.

They've been buffed to output impressive damage like a geared warrior can, so you cannot expect to fight them thinking they are a melee hunter. What do you do when you fight a full S3 war? Do you stand there and cast/attack/dance? No you run, you run and kite, you run and think on your feet to avoid that S3 weapon cleaving your skull.

I'm all for ret buff/tweaks and improving the spec. Not because it benefits me or my friends, but because people derive fun from it. Far be it from me to cry "nerfstick plox" if i'm inconvienenced in my murderous rampaging that I actually need to think in a PVP situation against a ret pally now rather than faceroll.

Ret has been buffed to make you think about your strat, nothing more. Yes they needed some tweaking, they recieved nerfs and I think are in a good 1-1 state now, they can't auto win against all classes in equal gear and equal skill.

That's what PVP should be like. Play the spec you want and make it work for you.

On a side note, I can't believe there are pallies in this thread and even on the WoW forums that are calling nerfs for fellow paladins? What kind of "throw em under the bus" classmates are you?

-Thel

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Hey, nothing wrong with buffs to your class a whole, but when a ret paladin can single-handedly beat down you and an elemental shaman without breaking a sweat...it doesn't take a genius to figure out something doesn't add up.

Except for when you propose absolutely God awful ideas.

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when a ret paladin can single-handedly beat down you and an elemental shaman without breaking a sweat...it doesn't take a genius to figure out something doesn't add up.

The amount of variables in PvP are extreme.

I've lost count of the times I have beaten two people at a time on my Hunter. I've also lost count of the times I have lost when I shouldn't have.

To say "One guy beat two of us easy!" truly doesn't mean much of anything.

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<Villayna snipped>

Wasn't a personal attack, I thought the suggestion was bad. *shrug* you happened to agree with it, also shrug. Sorry if it was received that way.

It's not ignorance - far from it. I've tried being retribution before. Looking at the new skill tree makes me want to vomit. I've played a paladin for approximately 70% of my wow career (the first character I got to 60 was a human paladin, then we made the switch to TN, and when TBC came out I did paladin -again-) and I've always preferred Protection to holy or Retribution. I've played holy plenty of times too, hell I've been healing for the past two days in raids and heroics, because people needed me to switch and I was more then happy to oblige. I go where people need me.

You don't like ret, that's fine. I've played all three specs of Paladin extensively, they each have their own unique flavor. If it's not ignorance, than it's pure and simple bias. Something that also affects judgment.

As for Retribution, the only way it should be viable is in the leveling department. I personally leveled straight prot, but enough about me. It does better damage then protection and holy (probably combined now) but in turn they should be squishier, just like a Fury/arms spec is squishier then a protection spec.

The fact that you feel an entire spec should only have one, limited use and be completely neglected at end game is.. it baffles me. It really does. It just further leads me to believe that you hate ret to the point that you don't even care if other people don't. And they are squishier than prot, I haven't seen a Ret paladin tank full groups of players or heal through 5 people's damage like I've seen prot/holy. And yes, we have a bubble that enables us to last JUST a touch longer. But so do the other specs of Paladin's so saying that we can use it to 'tank' when you can as well? Moot point.

Do fury/arms retain their ability to shield wall? Fuck no, they get to use retaliation and suck it up if they die too quick. They also don't get HEALS, which is why paladins are squishier (mitigation and health wise) because they have a MANA bar and can HEAL themselves. I'm caps locking just to highlight the biggest parts of what I said. Fury/arms/prot warriors CAN NOT heal themselves in 1.5 seconds (or instant if you crit!), which is why they are less squishy. The most they have is bandages, if I'm not mistaken (Just looked it up and remembered - arms has Second Wind and Fury gets Bloodlust, niether of which heal for anywhere near what a paladin can bust out).

We still can't outheal a dedicated healer, we can heal enough to mitigate huge burst on us for a -bit- (and I do mean that in a very small amount), but the bubble is still extremely necessary. I've also seen many arms warriors utilise shield wall these days AS WELL AS retal. Sure, we can heal ourselves. We're Paladins.

Taking away Divine Shield is not ignorant, in fact, it's not even enough. If you take away Divine Shield, you still have Divine Protection, which is equal to a Prot Warrior's Shield wall (and Divine Protection can be used without a shield!).

Divine protection is not = to shield wall. Shield wall cannot be dispelled, nor does it cause any manner of forebearance effect, to my knowledge. I'll let a warrior comment further on this.

Retribution. Does. Not. Deserve. As. Much. Damage. They have way more survivability then Arms/Fury Warriors and Enhancement Shaman. Paladins =/= Warriors =/= Shaman =/= Rogues =/= Mages.

Your opinion. Emphasis on opinion. We 'deserve' damage as the damage tree.

The way that Paladins were set up pre-TBC and pre-hordegetspaladinsandalliesgetshaman was that Shaman were offensive, as stated by Yatokth, and Pallies were more defensive. Where Shaman did not have the survivability of a paladin, they had more damage to kill things faster before they died. Where Paladins had less damage then shaman, they had more survivability thus they could take a beating over a greater amount of time and thus defeat stronger opponents and not have to worry about dying (I've solo'd elites that were meant for 2-3 players, it took a hell of a long time but I did it. I also killed mobs that were RED to me in level, and I sat there and thought -THAT- was overpowered - Ret paladins now? Are helluva overpowered).

They had too much burst, that has been scaled back and will be moreso. If you're implying that retribution was overpowered before this latest buff/nerf? I'm just going to laugh. It deserves damage.

But ever since WoW was invented (practically) allies and horde have been crying that 'their class' didn't get enough of the 'other's class' until finally Blizzard broke down to the whining and went 'ok, paladins get super damage now' while shaman pretty much got nothing else in the survivability department (if I'm not mistaken). Personally, I think they should have given Shaman Cyclone as druids have so many different survivability tactics already, but I digress.

Nerf cyclone.

So now, Paladins retained the survivability of 'old game' and have damage of 'new game' making them imbalanced. Though, with hunters and druids being over powered (for the longest time) and having not changed, I guess I can't expect for the same to happen to the newly overbuffed Ret paladins.

Nerf cyclone.

The current changes to paladins to 'nerf' the ret paladins hurts all cases of paladins, and doesn't do much for Ret paladins damage. Rather then nerfing things that affect all paladins, just give them their damage, but take away their 100% bubble. Fair trade in my educated opinion. You get your 'new game' damage, and we (non ret pallies/any other class) get the ability to actually kill you. before you auto kill us in a few seconds, while 100% immune to anything we do.

So.. you want our damage decreased AND our bubble taken away. <Villayna snipped some minor personal attacks>

Edit - But you still get Lay on Hands for insta-full health. Oh, and Divine Protection for 50% Less damage taken. And Holy Light. And Flash of Light. And the ability to get instant heals on crit. And the ability to get HoT's on crit. And the ability to auto get out of snares and roots. And the ability to ... well, I think you get my point. You can HAVE YOUR DAMAGE. Just give me MY SHIELD back. You don't need it.

We can auto get out of snares and roots? I thought we had to cast a spell that could be stolen/dispelled/purged. Also, we don't get lay on hands in Arena's. Should we just be forgotten in that area completely?

Edit 2 - Ret paladins wouldn't be useless without their 100% bubble, or having their bubble and not doing as much damage. It's a balancing game. In fact, if I had the choice, I would take away Ret's HoT and give it to holy, because that's where it belongs.

I'm thankful you don't get to make that choice. For the record, I am not trying to insult you. I'm sorry if I have. In closing, retribution -deserves- to be it's own viable tree. Just as much as holy or protection. Your bias is noted.

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Well, Reg just said something I completely agree with as I'm discussing your responses to my thread. Not to throw his name out there, but he did say it.

You're a cannon now. Great. Now accept that you cannot ALSO be a fortress.

The idea is very sound and not awful in the least. If you all want to keep your retribution overpowered so you can go easy mode, go for it. Hunters did it. Druids did it. Paladins were my sanctuary, and now its become less and less of that.

I will agree with one point, Ret paladins were immensly underpowered before. That's true. A buff to their power was necessary. But this was too much. They do damage as good as an enhancement shaman. They can heal as good as a holy paladin. They heal the party when they attack. And they can go 100% immune.

It's ridiculous.

You can say that I'm throwing my 'classmates' under the bus, but they are not classmates of mine, and besides that, many 'classmates' I've met I would throw under a bus without the NERF NEEDING TO HAPPEN.

I've played 80% of all available races and classes up to 40. I am an alt whore. I look at it from an overview perspective, not 'oh another paladin lolz I'm gonna fuck up his fun!'. Ret is overpowered. Simple as that. Taking away their 'fortress' ability will even the playing ground. And you can still be a small castle to boot!

But, I think I've stated my points clearly enough, and I'm not going to get sucked into 'your idea sucks lol your dumb lol' because you refuse to see how great of a change this is. AND I'M A PALADIN -SAYING- THAT NERF IS A GREAT CHANGE!

I said my two cents, nothing else to say as it's getting inflammatory.

Edit - she posted at the same time, doh!

The only thing I will respond to is this:

So.. you want our damage decreased AND our bubble taken away.

But just to re-iterate, you can have the damage, but not the bubble, or you can have the bubble, and not as much damage. Cannon. Or Fortress.

Edit 2 - oh, and the hand of freedom thing? You Hand of Freedom when you're ensnared to get out, the same 1 second cooldown it takes to use a trinket. It can be spellstolen? So what? You just got a free trinket!

<Villayna snipped some MAJOR personal attacks>

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Two things:

2 gcds in 1 minute to give you 15% haste. Assuming you are spamming 1.5 second spells, and you have 60-3 seconds to do it in (assuming you don't let the haste fall off) you can cast 44 FoL spells. Without the haste, you can cast in 60 seconds (so not putting up the seal and judge) exactly 40 FoL spells. So, not hasting for any fight that is a minute or longer is actually hurting your output.

Second, with the Glyph of Seal of Light, just having the damn seal up increases your output by 5%. You can't possibly tell me that's not worth it!

I love the haste talents. Keep the seal up cause it lasts two minutes, and use helpful judgements like Light (which is further enhanced by the t5 set bonus and said glyph). It also gives an added bonus to putting Judgement of Justice on people in PvP (which any good Paladin should be putting on EVERY MFER HE SEES in PvP).

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TirralysI don't think people are ganging up on you bud. You can't expect players to look at your suggestions and all of them to agree. With the manners of suggestions, attitude, and demeaming nature of your comments you can't expect to get positive feedback or engage in a healthy discussion. So there's no need to martyr yourself.

You had an idea, it was not well recieved, either preach to the devil or grab your bible and head home.

Leveling alts to 40, is not gaining an ounce of perspective for how they function at 70 at this point in the game.

"But just to re-iterate, you can have the damage, but not the bubble, or you can have the bubble, and not as much damage. Cannon. Or Fortress."

I'm going to ask, have you ever PVP'd? Also going to ask is your resilience under 150? Or are you taking nerdrage from other forums to surmise your opinions from? Bubble is a class pillar for PVP as a paladin, regardless of spec. Like totems are to shamans, stances to warriors, aspects to hunters, stuns to rogue. It's a tool, to build your own victory from.

If I have'nt seen so many bad pallies using bubble/stuns and still lose to skilled players it's possible i'd agree with you. But i've seen GOOD ret pallies lose to similarly geared opponents.

When I say good, I'm not talking about knowing spells, i'm talking same wavelength/teamplayers that know their shit in teams and solo. And know other classes shit beyond what I can even begin to comprehend. I've seen these pallies lose.

-Thelsuo

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Tirralys, ever played Arena with, against, or in any relation to a ret paladin?

A ret paladin without a bubble will be focused and DROPPED like a fucking rock. (Also, Arms/Fury warriors give up shield wall? lolweapinswitchmacro. Seriously, if you're going to compare paladins to warriors.... know the classes you're comparing.) Warriors have both Shield Wall, Spell Reflect, Defensive Stance, and WILL have a non-castable Self-HoT. (Enraged Regeneration)

Let's not mention Second Wind and Blood Craze.

Yes, Paladins shouldn't be outputting the insane burst that they WERE - but when the recent round of nerfs goes through, they're FINE (except for needing a buff to JotW - utility = useless when OOM) and yes, they ARE more survivable and defensive, so they shouldn't output quite as much damage, but it's not as if after the nerfs that they ARE. Yes, they still do damage (imagine that) but they're not god modding everything.

Retadins without their bubble would have no out in arena or any serious form of PvP. Yes, perhaps it should cut damage output more (I don't think it's neccessary now that their base damage output isn't as ludicrous) but it shouldn't be taken away - it's one of their tools and unique utilities, they NEED it. Trust me, right NOW - if a paladin doesn't use bubble, I CAN beat him. Like, before the nerfs. Yeah. So obviously, after the nerfs, he will need bubble to take me - yes, he/she should be able to take me.

Retadins without their bubble would miss out on one of the few redeeming things that keeps them viable in arena - their uncounterability. Paladins have little to no offensive utility. HoJ. Repentance. JoJ if you're fighitng druids. That is... pretty much it. Everything else is defensive:

Bubble

Hand of Freedom

HEALING LOLOLOLOLOL

Hand of Sacrifice

Hand of Protection

Hand of Overpowered Burst Damage (jk)

But really, the only thing they bring offensive-wise besides a stun and an incapacitate is DAMAGE. So they need to be able to DO damage and use that defensive utility in order to...

...

...

wait for it..

DO DAMAGE. :D

So yeah, bubble is an essential part of a paladin's strategy - they are a more defensive player, so yes, their damage shoudln't be ludicrous, but guess what? They nerfed it. WABAM.

<Villayna snipped some major personal attacks>

<Yatokth wonders why Vill didn't capitalize his "major" into "MAJOR" - Yatokth doesn't feel equally moderated to Tirralys. Yatokth's self esteem is plummetting>

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