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TNG 3.0 (aka why did I blow up the blogs?)

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Baahhh! I was gonna post something about the blogs but then I read Vill's post and saw the TNG 3.0 thinger...

It looks really good, I'm super excited. :)

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I really like that front page, Vill. It's quite reminiscent of the Dusk Watch website (minus the blog part), which I've always really liked. How will it be decided what's on front? Like the biggest RP events or something of that nature? Big collabs?

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Let me start by saying that you make some fabulous points, Yat. I could contest them all but I don't want to derail this thread into a bunch of sub threads arguing different points.

That and responses from my phone suck.

Instead I will tackle my biggest grievance with your argument: Moderating blogs down to only the meaningful[/i] ones.

My problem with this is now you have a gate keeper on what is and isn't meaningful. It's a subjective thing that is based around individual opinions, different for everyone. While I'm sure we can all agree when we see obvious tripe, sometimes that line can get awfully blury, and I would be. Incredibly hesitant to say that one person has president in deciding what is meaningful to as diverse a community as TNG.

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Incredibly hesitant to say that one person has president in deciding what is meaningful to as diverse a community as TNG.

It's Villy's site though. We are *ALLOWED* to use all of these pixels that SHE pays for. I don't see ads on the site, nor have I ever seen her ask for money to maintain it. If she decides that she wants to make it more based in RP, and do away with blogs, then you have a "My Webpage" setting in your user profile that you can use to link to your LiveJournal/Blogspot. Blogs are nice, I totally will stand by that and I was sad to see that they were gone today. However, the fact remains that if Villy decides next year that she is tired of all this drama and doesn't renew the site, bye bye TNG.

Everyone can bitch, moan, whine, and complain about the blogs being gone but it's her decision whether or not to have them. If she feels that the actions of some have warranted the need to get rid of some aspect of HER website, then so be it. This isn't the only site that you can go to for a blog, or social networking. Is the community that we have hear nice? Yes, I love getting to interact with people. I also know that everyone is smart enough to click a mouse a few times to see what is up in my personal life on an outside blog.

Edit: Love the new layout, very excited for it to go active Villy!

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After reading this I almost feel bad about going Horde on VeCo...

Almost....

Yeah you going Horde on Veco is what caused all this Bevros. ::eyeroll::

I think Vil got enough feedback about the blogs thing in the OTHER thread, and this thread is mostly about TNG 3.0 folks.

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Just because villy has ultimate power, something no one is arguing against, that doesn't mean she can discern what is meaningful more than anyone else (and I say that with all due respect). If she wants to ditch blogs because she feels like it she can, that doesn't mean we can't put up a respectful argument against it.

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Let me start by saying that you make some fabulous points, Yat. I could contest them all but I don't want to derail this thread into a bunch of sub threads arguing different points.

That and responses from my phone suck.

Instead I will tackle my biggest grievance with your argument: Moderating blogs down to only the meaningful[/i] ones.

My problem with this is now you have a gate keeper on what is and isn't meaningful. It's a subjective thing that is based around individual opinions, different for everyone. While I'm sure we can all agree when we see obvious tripe, sometimes that line can get awfully blury, and I would be. Incredibly hesitant to say that one person has president in deciding what is meaningful to as diverse a community as TNG.

Perhaps meaningful is the wrong word. Different things are or are not meaningful to different people - instead, I would use the phrase generally applicable or something comparable.

As in, blogs that I actually enjoy reading are blogs which primarily bring up a topic or subject of discussion that the majority of your readers can both engage in and discuss outside of the context of personal information - can personal information be there too? Sure! But the best blogs both provide information about the topic, the author, and oftentimes provoke questions or thoughts which cause discussion that multiple participants can engage in without having any prior knowledge of the author. In other words, something that could be a topic of discussion outside of a blog, but might not be appropriate for a forum thread because its context is a personal one.

Diomades, Jeedup, Aleria, Carmen, and a number of others (Izrail comes to mind) have made blogs like these - although they've made personal blogs as well, a large majority of their writing engages the viewer beyond simply "this is what happened to me and this is how I feel" - which is not less meaningful per se to every person (it is to me usually, but I digress) and it's fine for a journal or a personal blog, but it doesn't have much of a place on TNG, I feel.

So not meaningful, but something that would enrich the intent and purpose of TNG towards the same goal - better RP PvP for Twisting Nether. Does that mean it has to be WoW-related? Or game related? No. But definitely writing that can evoke a tangible response from a majority of people.

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Yeah you going Horde on Veco is what caused all this Bevros. ::eyeroll::

I think Vil got enough feedback about the blogs thing in the OTHER thread, and this thread is mostly about TNG 3.0 folks.

That's not what I meant, she talked about the VeCo thread on World's End Tavern, and about publicity of people touting that server as a good one.

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I feel bad for not reading every post but I"m about to log on for the first time in about five days and I just felt like putting my two cents in.

First I will talk about the new TNG.

I love it. I don't have to go to WoW.com and just browse around now, because the site I visit as soon as I boot up my computer will now have a feed for it. Colorscheme is nice but I'd be interested in seeing the current one on it to hold us off (liekz september) until it finally hits. The only feature I want to see that I don't already and we don't already have is a strikeout for blogs/forum posts. That adds hilarity.

Onto the blogs. What are blogs for me? I used them inappropriately at first, posting my own dramaz and then pictures of...well...poop. But then I learned how to use them right (and drama monger a bit without mongering on month old drama that should be dead instead of making a blog post with two pages of comments and some rage towards me for being the idiot that brings it back up), and I actually have a few things I'd like to post about (just to write About persoNal thiNgs that other people mIght not carE to see, but I need to write about just because).

What do I think you should do? I don't know, they've become necessary if you ask me, and without them the forums will require more moderating, and I don't think that's a desirable result. With any community, especially one as great as ours with different views on PvP and immersion, different feelings towards one another and different things happening all the time, there is going to be tension, and I think the blogs relieve that as best anything I can think about (that is reasonable). Yeah everything could be moderated super srsly so that we look like a GOD DAMN UTOPIA AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY but I think it speaks for the community's strength that we have this, albeit a bit more than we should, and persevere.

As for reaching out on the official forums? Just ask, I'm sure you'll get me again if I'm not busy. Responding the way we do is the best we can. We're not arrogant, and we address the drama in our posts. Yes it exists, and yes it can be a bit overwhelming at times, but how else to respond? I think the summarized 'typical response' you gave shows that we can all and do overlook the drama and love the site.

I'm going to share a personal story and you can use it as backing up the TNG and even the server whenever you please. When you armory "Oakpack" you will find most of the toons I've tried to make as mains on other servers, with the exception of a 55 mage who I faction and server xferred here. I would make a toon for a class/race I wanted to be, naming it my old favorite name Oakpack, and levelling it until I got bored with it. I would then go to a new server because to take a main seriously I thought it had to have the name Oakpack and, despite making a guild on every server, and bringing a RL friend with me to new servers, and making tons of friends on each server, I would move on.

This continued until I went back to play my Mage who I finally got to 55, and then I made a Death Knight. This Death Knight, Oakpack of Lethon, became my first level cap in three years of on and off playing. I then quit for FPSes with some friends from other games. When I returned I made a new Oakpack, and killed him off in characterly after a few days of playing because I was bored of WoW again. After coming back I talked to the people I RPed with (this was on failstrom, and the guild was paladin oriented, first time of not leading my own) and realized I should make a new toon. I thought Paladin, so I went to TN to try Oakpack, my 24 Paladin (who I think I used to be in FO in before hiatusing for a year...) to see if I could get into Pally again. I decided I would level him a bit more, because I had some (lol VC) rares on him. So I joined The Dusk Watch and after a few good guild meetings I decided I would stay on TN until I hit 80 on Oakpack, or the Fight Club reference character Lurile Shireman the soapmaker. Eventually I bought a name change (because on Maelstrom I can't RP as Oakpack, right?) and got a little bit more involved in Lurile's RP. Eventually after thinking more about some of the interactions I'd had, I asked about organizing a cross-guild networking meeting for the betterment of RP stories (because Lurile would either go crazy and be killed shortly after hitting 80), and was constantly told to get more involved in TNG. Eventually I got into the site and, slowly, realized that it was a great place. I now have three 80s on TN, working on a fourth. None of which are named Oakpack. Whenever I turn on my computer, I pop open TNG vent (WTB officiality on that), and google chrome where the first thing I open is TNG. It's my most visited site. And no VeCo bitches can have anything like this, there's no way.

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Perhaps meaningful is the wrong word. Different things are or are not meaningful to different people - instead, I would use the phrase generally applicable or something comparable.

As in, blogs that I actually enjoy reading are blogs which primarily bring up a topic or subject of discussion that the majority of your readers can both engage in and discuss outside of the context of personal information - can personal information be there too? Sure! But the best blogs both provide information about the topic, the author, and oftentimes provoke questions or thoughts which cause discussion that multiple participants can engage in without having any prior knowledge of the author. In other words, something that could be a topic of discussion outside of a blog, but might not be appropriate for a forum thread because its context is a personal one.

Diomades, Jeedup, Aleria, Carmen, and a number of others (Izrail comes to mind) have made blogs like these - although they've made personal blogs as well, a large majority of their writing engages the viewer beyond simply "this is what happened to me and this is how I feel" - which is not less meaningful per se to every person (it is to me usually, but I digress) and it's fine for a journal or a personal blog, but it doesn't have much of a place on TNG, I feel.

So not meaningful, but something that would enrich the intent and purpose of TNG towards the same goal - better RP PvP for Twisting Nether. Does that mean it has to be WoW-related? Or game related? No. But definitely writing that can evoke a tangible response from a majority of people.

Again, I respect your opinions and agree with you to a degree, but we disagree on a major issue that I don't think any amount of debacle will change (nor will dragging it out do any good). I can dog your idea for sure, I think blogs like that would be awesome. By the same coin I think that of someone wants to put their feelings out there where they know their WoW friends frequent then they should be able to. People are always going to look for a place to talk about themselves or nothing at all, best to have a blog section to keep it out of the general and have a place for it to bunch up to take some weight off the mods.

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Again, I respect your opinions and agree with you to a degree, but we disagree on a major issue that I don't think any amount of debacle will change (nor will dragging it out do any good). I can dog your idea for sure, I think blogs like that would be awesome. By the same coin I think that of someone wants to put their feelings out there where they know their WoW friends frequent then they should be able to. People are always going to look for a place to talk about themselves or nothing at all, best to have a blog section to keep it out of the general and have a place for it to bunch up to take some weight off the mods.

Don't worry, I can tell by your tone (text tone wtf) that you're just debating. No offense taken, and I hope none given!

While I agree that it's fine for people to do so, it would seem to me having a link to an outside blog would fulfill this purpose (the friends who are interested likely already talk to you and would know of it), and it would completely eliminate the problem of having to moderate it on this site, since that's not what the site is for. I mean, other than putting it in the rules and nuking it wherever it showed up, which is alot easier to enforce than trying to get into the blur of what is and is not appropriate.

Difference of opinion, I suppose. I don't think the site should try to accommodate all of its individual member's personal outlets - there are other sites for that.

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Nice front page sample indeed. I know it is a bit weird to ask, but is the 'new' upgrades and stuff... Is the site going to have the same dark theme it does now? ( With the dark purples, grays, and blacks. )

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Please continue to post full thoughts, if it took 10 seconds to type, it probably shouldn't be posted.

Trolling this thread results in infraction points.

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Would it be acceptable to have more clear cut rules on blogs and maybe even (when tng.3) get a designated blog moderator who runs off of those rules. Now say something is a bit iffy then it could be discussed with Vil but I honestly think that having a designated blog mog would be beneficial. One given a clear set of rules to follow and implement with room for revision or adjustment.

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Don't worry, I can tell by your tone (text tone wtf) that you're just debating. No offense taken, and I hope none given!

While I agree that it's fine for people to do so, it would seem to me having a link to an outside blog would fulfill this purpose (the friends who are interested likely already talk to you and would know of it), and it would completely eliminate the problem of having to moderate it on this site, since that's not what the site is for. I mean, other than putting it in the rules and nuking it wherever it showed up, which is alot easier to enforce than trying to get into the blur of what is and is not appropriate.

Difference of opinion, I suppose. I don't think the site should try to accommodate all of its individual member's personal outlets - there are other sites for that.

Did you read Szordrins idea in the other thread by chance about heavy self moderation being mandatory? I think it too could fix the issue and allow us to keep blogs as close as possible as to what we have now while also being drastically improved.

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Did you read Szordrins idea in the other thread by chance about heavy self moderation being mandatory? I think it too could fix the issue and allow us to keep blogs as close as possible as to what we have now while also being drastically improved.

I haven't, as I saw a long thread about blogs that got locked and assumed drama. I'll go dig it up at some point here soon.

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But the funny thing, thats basically, how the blogs were already being 'moderated'. With the mods only coming in for extreme reasons, or violating the already set rules of the forum (hate speech, clear personal attacks, ect). Anyone can self-moderate, the problem is, everyone's going to have a different view on how they should moderate, and what they feel should be acceptable. Someone might just post pictures they've taken off of other sites, comics they've taken from other sites and artists, art they've taken from other sites, and artist. While they feel thats fine, its their self-moderation, others may, and probably will find issues with it, and may other examples. What I did find was a good approach (that I think Szo also suggested), would make it mandatory for all comments, to have to be approved by said blog owner. Not a moderator, the owner of said blog. This makes a sort of checks and balances system. So if the owner, decided to let something 'unnacceptable' go through the comments, not only does the poster of the comment get in trouble, so does the owner of the blog. I'd also add on to this suggestion, getting rid of editing of comments that aren't from the actual poster of the comment, or a moderator. I have seen (and admittedly guilty of) people use this to edit peoples comments to be humorous, playful, but also spitefull, and rather childish. If you don't want it? Dont accept it, or just delete it.

The other thing is, there is no real 'fix' for the blogs. Any solution will work...to a point, and will still have problems, and will still have people finding fault in it. Can't please anyone, people will say to that, but then, so have people said about the issue now with blogs, or deleting the blogs, ect ect. It'll go on and on...and on.

And a discussion is just fine. Villy may already have her solution read, regardless of people say, or she may not. But she likes to listen, and thats important. Doesn't mean any of our suggestions might go through, or maybe they will. But the fact that we're able to voice them, is key.

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What I did find was a good approach (that I think Szo also suggested), would make it mandatory for all comments, to have to be approved by said blog owner. Not a moderator, the owner of said blog. This makes a sort of checks and balances system. So if the owner, decided to let something 'unnacceptable' go through the comments, not only does the poster of the comment get in trouble, so does the owner of the blog. I'd also add on to this suggestion, getting rid of editing of comments that aren't from the actual poster of the comment, or a moderator. I have seen (and admittedly guilty of) people use this to edit peoples comments to be humorous, playful, but also spitefull, and rather childish. If you don't want it? Dont accept it, or just delete it.

Yep. That's basically what I think would fix the issue and then.. if any arise, you know who to blame. Of course, I dont think this will fix all of the asshattery. I do, however, think it will slow down the drama flow, give people enough time to really think about what they're posting (considering the blog owner doesnt approve every second of the day), give the blog poster the means of moderating their blog. I mean, the blog poster will always SEE what someone is trying to write which is really what is important anyway. If a blog starts to get derailed, it cant continue unless the owner decides it is alright. Aleria would be my model blogger for this since she has been exercising this rite for quite some time, except... since people can't behave themselves (and this really isnt just about the diglet incident, there's been problems before), this would be the best "hands-off" solution. I cant think of anything else, really.

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But the funny thing, thats basically, how the blogs were already being 'moderated'. With the mods only coming in for extreme reasons, or violating the already set rules of the forum (hate speech, clear personal attacks, ect). Anyone can self-moderate, the problem is, everyone's going to have a different view on how they should moderate, and what they feel should be acceptable. Someone might just post pictures they've taken off of other sites, comics they've taken from other sites and artists, art they've taken from other sites, and artist. While they feel thats fine, its their self-moderation, others may, and probably will find issues with it, and may other examples. What I did find was a good approach (that I think Szo also suggested), would make it mandatory for all comments, to have to be approved by said blog owner. Not a moderator, the owner of said blog. This makes a sort of checks and balances system. So if the owner, decided to let something 'unnacceptable' go through the comments, not only does the poster of the comment get in trouble, so does the owner of the blog. I'd also add on to this suggestion, getting rid of editing of comments that aren't from the actual poster of the comment, or a moderator. I have seen (and admittedly guilty of) people use this to edit peoples comments to be humorous, playful, but also spitefull, and rather childish. If you don't want it? Dont accept it, or just delete it.

The other thing is, there is no real 'fix' for the blogs. Any solution will work...to a point, and will still have problems, and will still have people finding fault in it. Can't please anyone, people will say to that, but then, so have people said about the issue now with blogs, or deleting the blogs, ect ect. It'll go on and on...and on.

And a discussion is just fine. Villy may already have her solution read, regardless of people say, or she may not. But she likes to listen, and thats important. Doesn't mean any of our suggestions might go through, or maybe they will. But the fact that we're able to voice them, is key.

That's what I was trying to suggest to Yat, what Szo said about mandatory modding via comment approval. It may or may not work but I personally feel such a small tweak that works so logically is worth giving a shot.

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Oh and I'd like to thrown in, as food for thought, even if you don't MAKE a blog, but if you comment, you do use the blogs. So if you're comments are a 'positive' or 'negative' one, it still goes towards either the abuse or good use standing arguments/view points/suggestions.

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I don't like the blogs. Primarily because it keeps people off the actual forums, and also leads to the question of whether something posted on the forums will just be deemed inappropriate for the forums, with members pointed to the blogs. This can be intimidating to newcomers.

Moving on: My experience with improving the quality of comments/posts/responses is simply to lead by example. A well written post is more likely to get a well written response. A short sarcastic post is more likely to get a short sarcastic reply. There are forums that have extremely respectful communities simply because of the site it's connected with, the quality of writing on that site, and the atmosphere it encourages.

As well to be more welcoming to newcomers I think it helps to make it clear where certain posts belong, or at least have a place to ask. For instance, I've seen in game events announced in WoW Discussion, RP Help and Networking, and Nether Legends. I still don't know where the correct place to announce them is. Simplify those sorts of things and make it more clear.

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I agree with Jeeds. The blogs aren't needed. I used the blogs myself on here, but Im not upset that their gone. I used them with the mentality "Well, someone is paying for them to be used, so why the fuck not?" but otherwise I don't mind if we lose them. Also, what Yat said; use another blog provider and link it in your sig. I see no harm in that, unless the mods disagree with putting links in signatures (which I doubt).

I also agree with the layout/idea behind the new TNG. Perhaps if the forums was based more around our RP, stories, art ect, it might help our cred among the other RP servers and attract the re-rollers. I won't lie, I have looked into other servers to re-roll Crushem on. PvP wasn't always my thing anyway, so a straight RP server would be fine for me. However, I have made friends here and I'm already comfortable (for the most part) with the community here, so I would rather see the community change and help it to do so, than just up and leave.

If things seem unchanged after all this, then I would have to say that removing the blogs wasn't the problem. I do, however, see that it could very much help attract people to the server without such things.

Bottom line; lets see what happens.

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Like the look of TNG 3.0. Showcasing the artistic side of the TNG on the front page is especially neat. I look forward to seeing it implemented.

Also like the suggestion of a forum for introductions. Would be good in the Visitor's Center.

As for blogs, I would prefer them to stay. They enable discussions that are of a more personal or transient nature than the rest of the forums allow for. Problems only arise when users forget the purpose of the TNG (to promote the role-playing community of Twisting Nether) and indulge in drama, lulz, or other thoughtless behavior. If it didn't happen on the blogs, it would still happen elsewhere. It always has. It's part of the price of having a community that is as lenient as the TNG, and the solution will not be to nuke this or that part of the site. Unfortunately, it's up to individual members to man up and treat the site with respect. Until they are motivated to do so, it is my opinion that no structural change to the site will change the frequency of disruptive behavior. Just the location.

The idea of forcing blog users to approve individual comments may help curb the spam and trolling. Self-moderation is something users should do anyway, but unless a blogger has access to the TNG 24/7, expecting them to catch all the crap is probably unrealistic.

Whatever happens to the blogs, though, I will support. They are a nonessential part of the site. A nice bonus, and something I like to have around, but not what the site is here for. My only request, if the current blogs are to stay nuked until 3.0, is that users will be able to see their own blogs for a while so that they can save any content they would like to keep. This was done for the Adult Tales and Art section, giving time for authors and artists to copy any of their work or comments received before the section was deleted. Not much of the blogs may be worthy of saving, but I know, from going back multiple times to delete scores of my entries, that there was content and responses that I would like to hang on to for future reference.

My other suggestion, which I am tired of repeating (and feel it is no longer my place to insist on), is about this:

However, there's been a much larger problem outside of TNG. TNGers rarely visit the official forums anymore, at least not the Twisting Nether or the RP sections. I still visit them about once a day to find any "Is the RP any good here?" type posts on TN forums, and "what's a good RP-PVP server?" on the RP forums. Obviously the official forums are a cesspit, and I know I shouldn't let it get me down when TNG gets attacked by trolls, but when I break down and actually ask for help dealing with them, only three or four people responded, and most of those were "eh, the drama's stupid, but I still like TNG". Not really the response I'd hoped for.
I'm tired of being the lone crusader for Twisting Nether recruitment. I know most of you like the guilds and the people you hang out with, and WoW in general is in a lull till Cataclysm. But now is the time to start getting the word out so that we GET those re-rollers to do it on TN. RPers need fresh blood, or else we tend to get complacent, running through the same RP cycles with the same RP friends. In order to recruit, I need to be able to point them to this website without getting "lol, TNG" responses, or at least getting some support from the people here.

It baffles me that no one will step up and promote Twisting Nether on the forums at all. It has baffled me since I was hard-core crusading for the TNG a couple years ago. Is the TNG that much of a joke in the eyes of the rest of the WoW community now? Twisting Nether is the only server with a resource like the TNG. Villayna's vision of the TNG would be epic if it could be actualized. I don't get why many folks aren't interested in exploring that untapped, transformative potential.

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