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Noury
06-15-2006, 10:13 AM
((Taken from several sources, mainly the WoWWikki pages.))


The Holy Light is a non-theistic religious philsophy with adherents among humans, dwarves, high elves, and Draenei.


General

The followers of the Holy Light do not worship any gods (at least not directly). Instead, it is a philosophy, training its followers to seek perfection within themselves. It is very much an active practice of virtue rather than a passive worship. Those who follow it closely gain spiritual awareness and guidance, allowing them to lead others.

The Holy Light teaches that there is a connection between the self and the universe. This connection manifests as what we feel through both senses and emotions. When a person is moved, through seeing something breathtaking or feeling love for another, that emotion connects him to the universe. Experiencing the emotion ensures that he exists, as something within him felt the emotions or processed the sensual awareness. Because he exists, so must the universe that gave him that feeling. From there, he can act upon the universe, causing more changes to create feeling in others. Thus, the followers of Holy Light seek to make the world a better place by being true to their own emotions.

The next step in recognizing this connection between the self and the universe is developing the goodness within and without. If one wishes for happiness, one must work to better the universe to make others happy. Experiencing the glory and beauty of the world will in turn tap into the inner beauy and glory within one's soul. However, giving in to greed, despair, and unhappiness will only darken the universe. The Holy Light is the glory of the universe reflected upon the soul and mirrored back onto itself.

Holy Light practitioners consist mainly of humans. There were once many high elves and dwarves practicing the philosophy, but their numbers have dwindled in recent years. As high elves traveled further into the darkness of their arcane magic addiction, they fell from the Holy Light. The Ironforge dwarves have replaced the Light with the study of their progenitors, the Titans. The night elves are too new to the Alliance and too entrenched in their own worship of Elune and the other Ancients to consider the Holy Light, and it is unheard of to think of Horde races following the philosophy.


The Power Behind the Light

While most followers of Holy Light do not worship any Gods directly, the power apparently does come from some sentient being or beings, known simply as the "Light" for lack of a better description. The "Light" has emmisaries known simply as Hope that guide the worshipers of the Holy Light covertly. Celestials may also be connected in some way.

The archaic term "God" used by the Clerics of Northshire Abbey during the first war, appears to be synonymous with the "Light", and just another way of describing the source of the power, though it is likely connected to one of the Creation Myths. However it has lost its usage since then, as most followers no longer believe in any dieties. It appears though that a few cults still believe in the Celestials however.

During the Draenei exodus from Argus, Velen and his followers were imbued with Light-given knowledge and powers by an otherwise unknown race of incorporeal beings called Naaru. As the true history of the Draenei has only recently become known to the scholars of Azeroth, it is unknown what connection the Naaru might have to the Celestials or to the Light itself.


The Three Virtues

The philosophy of the Holy Light boils down to the three teachings, called the Three Virtues. These virtues - respect, tenacity and compassion - are each defined into a principal and a lesson.

The first virtue taught is respect. While the Holy Light teaches that awareness of the self and the universe is a goal, one must also see the connection between others and the universe. Destroying other's happiness and severing other's connections with the universe is not serving the world's well being, and therefore not your own. The practitioners of the Holy Light are not naive, however, and understand that trial, conflict, war, and suffering do happen; but they strive to make the universe a better place in spite of these hinderances.

The second virtue is tenacity. The adherence to this virtue is, incidentally, the part of training under the Holy Light that weeds out the unfaithful, as true dedication takes years. Fresh-faced acolytes often lose hope and the true meaning of the Holy Light when they realize that it takes a lifetime to serve the philosophy. The world is much bigger than one lone soul; and while the world can change a soul in a day, it takes much more time to change the world. Only through tenacity can a servant of the Holy Light hope to affect the universe. If some young students feel like this is an impossible task, others take heart in the realization that if you truly believe there is a connection between the self and the universe, one cannot help but affect the other, no matter the size. Affecting the world can include anything from teaching and instilling hope in others to joining with other like-minded individuals to work together to create a bigger change.

After the first two concepts are mastered, the student can take on the final virtue: compassion. The connection between the self and the universe is strong, but it still is only one connection. If a follower of the Light serves another to increase his happiness, his bond with the universe grows stronger. The happiness he recieves by helping someone also strengthens himself and the universe, and he is able to affect the universe even more.

Compassion is perhaps the most powerful - and most dangerous - virtue. If someone is too compassionate, he can give help where none is needed - or wanted. This oversight can hinder one's growth and happiness. Some helpers can be awkward and do more harm than good with their actions, increasing the suffering and unhappiness in the world. This is why compassion is taught last; only the wise and compassionate can identify who is truly in need and who can grow on their own.


Worship of the Light

Lordaeron was the home of the Church of the Light, influencing both Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas with its teachings. The Church birthed the Knights of the Silver Hand; but the Knights and the Holy Light were unable to stop the Scourge, as Lordaeron and the Knights fell underneath the decayed boots of the undead. The Church now has a new central location in Stormwind, but there is little in the form of organized study and worship of the Light on Kalimdor. The Draenei have also, apparently, followed the Light for over twenty-five thousand years, but little is known of how similar or different their practices may be to those of the Azerothian races.

Many remaining paladins who served the Silver Hand and now make their home in Kalimdor are attempting to form a new Church, but the going is slow. As the study of the Holy Light was more of a philosophical pursuit than a faith, the destroyed Church in Lordaeron resembled a library instead of a house of worship. Its texts were destroyed along with the Church, many of them burned, most of them buried under thousands of pounds of rubble. What with the wars, settling a new Alliance stronghold and dealing with frequent skirmishes, the remaining scholars and priests have found little time to work on transcribing old information into new books for initiates. Most young followers of the Holy Light learn by experience at the heel of a more experienced person instead of in libraries surrounded by texts.

Some self-appointed sages are taking up the mantle of rewriting the pontifications on the Holy Light, but there is no regulation or overseer. There are fresh looks at old ideas, as well as old ideas copied word for word by dilligent old priests with perfect memories. As one would expect, sometimes these old scholars clash when someone realizes that the texts are beginning to contradict one another. This is the tension within the Church; younger priests feel the Third War gave the Holy Light a chance to renew itself just as the Alliance was renewing itself on Kalimdor, while others demand to keep the old traditions.

Secular citizens care little for the debates but prefer their rituals to remain the same. With everything around them changing, faith represents one of the few constants.



Light and Shadow

"The ‘Light’ and the ‘Shadow’ are both philosophies of a sort, but they also tap into universal powers that are at play in the cosmos. Good and Evil are real things – not just ideaological distinctions. You’ll see these themes play much more clearly in the coming chunks on content. That’s all I’ll say about that. All those paladins are tapping into SOMETHING to pull off those heals!"



Alonsus Faol

Archbishop Alonsus Faol was the head of the Holy Order of Northshire Clerics prior to the First War between humans and orcs. Following the terrible attrition suffered by his clerics in that conflict and the destruction of Northshire Abbey, the aged Faol fled with the surviving citizens of Stormwind to Lordaeron.

Aided by his apprentice, Uther Lightbringer, Faol refounded the Order as the Knights of the Silver Hand, this time equipping the followers of the Holy Light in the armamants of war. Alonsus Chapel, in Stratholme, was the site where he annointed Uther as the first of the paladins.

A statue and fountain in front of the Cathedral of Light in Stormwind extolls the work done by Faol following the Second War: raising funds to help rebuild the city and reestablishing the Brotherhood of Northshire. Faol died of unknown causes some time prior to the coming of the Scourge to Lordaeron. His final resting place is Faol's Rest, in the Tirisfal Glades.

EnheilRas
06-15-2006, 11:49 AM
That's all good and well...

But the Light has been malformed in the coming expansion due to the Draenei. It brings these spiritual beings called the Naaru into the picture that are now the source of the Light and it's creators and divine collaborators.

Nor does it take into account the Hopes and Celestials described as avatars of the Light in the WarCraft RPG.

Teelia
06-15-2006, 03:57 PM
I like it, Nouri!

Good work!

Noury
06-15-2006, 05:27 PM
(( This is what I could find on Hopes, Celestials From the Warcraft RPG.. and Naaru. ))

Hopes

Hopes are angelic emissaries of the Holy Light. They prefer to guide covertly the paladins, and priests of Azeroth, rather than leading or directly revealing any divine will. When pressed, they will combat evil, but it is not their purpose.

It is unknown if the name of Light's Hope Chapel refers to the Hope or not.

They seem to share some similarity to Celestials, and Naaru.

Celestials

Described in the Manual of Monsters, Celestials are mythical angels and kind spirits who once roamed the orc and human lands, teaching peace and cooperation and offering gifts to those who chose to follow that path.

Few modern tales discuss Celestials in Azeroth, and no one has openly claimed to see one in nearly one thousand years. They are now merely legend; some even say they have been destroyed, or subjugated by evil spirits and so exist no more. Yet secret cults throughout most nations still worship these beings--some say, in vain.

Celestials are said to take many faces, depending on which race is telling the story. Usually, they resemble the individual with whom they are speaking, idealized into perfect feature and form. They do not "live" within the lands of Azeroth per se, but instead exist on some higher plane, called into being only when necessity demands it.

Celestials also seem to share some similarity to Hopes, and Naaru. They are described as enemies of demons.

Warcraft I Speculation:

It is possible that this race was inspired in part by some of the descriptions of "God" and angels which were included in the Warcraft I manual. That manual describes the Clerics of Northshire as followers of a theistic belief system including God and angels, which conflicts with the more current descriptions of the Holy Light as a non-theistic religious philosophy.

It might be possible to reconcile their stated beliefs with the beings called Celestials, Naaru and Hope. Celestials and Hope are described in the Manual of Monsters, as being angelic creatures who act as emissaries for a higher power. According to the Manual, there are still secret cults in every nation who still worship the Celestials, perhaps in vain. If Celestial worship existed in Stormwind before the First War, it could be a way of reconciling this apparent retcon.

Higher Planes

According the RPG when the term "Higher Plane" is used it is in reference to one of the known planes, such as "Emerald Dream", "Twisting Nether", "Great Dark", "Elemental Plane", or simply another planet out in the great dark. There are scholars that study the concept of planes and wonder if there are more to discover.

According to the books there are no DnD style planes within the Warcraft Universe. The Warcraft universe is both simple and vast. Unlike the standard DnD world, Azeroth has no distinct Astral, Ethereal, Inner, Outer, Positive, or Negative Planes---just a measureless nothing known as the Great Dark Beyond. An infinite number of worlds spin within this space and its impossible to say whether they are scattered across the universe or superimposed upon each other.

Naaru

The Naaru are a dimension-travelling race of sentient energy beings with a deep affinity for the Holy Light of Creation that empowers the paladins of Azeroth. They are bent on stopping the Burning Crusade. The Naaru blessed the Draenei with this power in an effort to help them in their struggle. This makes them a natural ally of the Alliance races who embrace this holy power.

History

When Sargeras and the Burning Legion came to the world of Argus and began corrupting the eredar race, Velen, an eredar leader, prayed for help. The Naaru appeared, offering to take Velen and any other like-minded eredar to safety. Velen and his faction accepted and began to call themselves Draenei (Exiled Ones). The Draenei hastily escaped Argus aboard the Dimensional Ship provided for them by the Naaru.

During the Draenei's journey, the enigmatic naaru race blessed them with Light-given knowledge and power. The Naaru explained that there were other forces in the cosmos that would stand against the Burning Legion. One day the Naaru would forge them into a single unstoppable army of the Light. Deeply affected by the Naaru's words, the draenei vowed to honor the Light and uphold the Naaru's altruistic ideals.

EnheilRas
06-16-2006, 12:13 PM
Excellent pasting word for word from the Wiki site
*rolls eyes*

How does it Discuss Lore?
How does it give your thoughts on the subject?

How does it offer insight?

Teelia
06-16-2006, 12:59 PM
Excellent pasting word for word from the Wiki site
*rolls eyes*

How does it Discuss Lore?
How does it give your thoughts on the subject?

How does it offer insight?

Good lord, Enheilras. Constructive critisism....Learn to use it.

This thread is good for those who may be wantiing to get a little background and help a priest or pally roleplay. It doesn't matter what Nouri thinks about it. This is a useful tool.

You can roll your eyes all you want, but all it serves is to make you look like a jerk. We all aren't as spotlessly perfect as you anyway.

EnheilRas
06-16-2006, 01:53 PM
All I am saying is that link's would have sufficed if his intent was to just copy and paste from Wiki articles.

Now, some obscure things like how it does or does not relate to Western Monotheism, the principles and direction the church is taking due to Archbishop Benedictus; It's policies regarding Forsaken, or even the Darkness of the Light in form of Deathlords--Paladins fallen into Shadow--..

That's something to discuss. It offers insight on the topic. It shows more than just an article.

Teelia
06-16-2006, 02:00 PM
All I am saying is that link's would have sufficed if his intent was to just copy and paste from Wiki articles.

Now, some obscure things like how it does or does not relate to Western Monotheism, the principles and direction the church is taking due to Archbishop Benedictus; It's policies regarding Forsaken, or even the Darkness of the Light in form of Deathlords--Paladins fallen into Shadow--..

That's something to discuss. It offers insight on the topic. It shows more than just an article.

But none of that matters.

It doesn't matter how the info was presented....Just that someone was nice enough to put it there. You are not here to judge this stuff....and the comment you made was pretty much a backhanded comment that made you look like a jerk. Thats all I'm saying. We honestly don't care what your opinion is in terms of whether something should or shouldn't be posted.

Now you do bring up a good point...How the church views the forsaken, fallen paladins, etc. But by Nouri posting this here, it may give people who want to write those type of things some resources to base their ideas from. Not everyone clicks on links...I know I usually don't. I was happy to see this posted here, and would much rather read it here on TNG than zip over to another site.

As you are a moderator here on this site, maybe it would be a good idea to be a bit more helpful and neutral about other people's ideas, rather than rolling your eyes at them and telling them they've wasted their time. Thats what a good moderator would do.

Noury
06-16-2006, 02:08 PM
The information was posted for convenience. Ironically much as you did with your Troll Lore information.. Again cut and pasted from elsewhere.

Oh, but I suppose since YOU posted it, its alright..


If discussion is what is desired, then go ahead, start us off. I provided the background, you already opened the floor to some possible topics.

Now, put your money where your mouth is and start a civillized discussion. Lets hear your views on this..

Chavie
06-16-2006, 07:12 PM
xhilsren oftren do

EnheilRas
06-16-2006, 09:05 PM
The information was posted for convenience. Ironically much as you did with your Troll Lore information.. Again cut and pasted from elsewhere

The Troll information was a project by a huge conglomeration of troll experts across a dozen servers and compiled on the Feathermoon server. it represents a vast work that can be found nowhere else since falling off of the Main WarCraft Boards.

It's value is paramount.

EnheilRas
06-16-2006, 09:13 PM
On the subject of Deathlords: the CHurch denies their existence. They refuse to acknowledge the fact that Paladins whom betray their teachings and fall into "The Shadow" are themselves reincarnated upon death to be Revenants of the Shadow: Deathlords.

Yet, these are not Death Knights, or any kind of Lich.

Rexxar fought one in Echo Isles.

This religious duality is existent in most other racial faiths. Shadow Hunters, for one, are taught to walk the line of Light and Shadow, to become one with both simultaneously to draw the power from Both sides. They are the penultimate power of Voodoo.

The Idea of Hell proceeds in almost every WarCraft Faith as well. Humans, Elves, and even the Draenor races, all acknowledge Hell as being a place of torment and undying death. Hell seems to have a rather large place in orcish society, especially during the Era of the Blood Haze, which seems to pinpoint Hell as being somehow related to the Burning Legion and the Twisting Nether.

Noury
06-16-2006, 09:45 PM
The Troll information was a project by a huge conglomeration of troll experts across a dozen servers and compiled on the Feathermoon server. it represents a vast work that can be found nowhere else since falling off of the Main WarCraft Boards.

It's value is paramount.

I found 95% of the troll stuff on the Wowwiki.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Troll

In any case.. I'll let this drop.

Chavie,

In all honesty, the Blizzard take on the worship of the Light reminds me in huge ways to early christian Gnosticism. So much so that when Nouri goes about in Stormwind and preaches his sermons, I borrow liberally from the Hag Namadi. Only I change the wording to read "The Light" instead of "Cosmocreator".

I suspect that this was a conscious desicion on the part of Blizzard. As stated the earlier Warcraft had the the humans worshiping a "God" monotheistic figure, along with 'Angels'. They have since evolved this towards the more vague worship of The Light. Was this due to customer complaint? Who knows?

Whatever the reasons, the faith of The Light seems to have much in common with Gnosticism, which is actually an internalized version of Christianity as opposed to Catholicism for instance, which is external.

Now, Gnosticism is very similar in concept to the eastern religions, which have a very different view on Light and Dark, or Good and Evil.

They see both as intricate and inseperable aspects of Creation. Think Yin Yang. With that in mind, one could see how worship of The Light, can also include acceptance that as the Light creates in the Universe through virtuous deeds, so does room for Creation need to be made through destruction of all that is a taint on the glory of Creation. Creation through Light, destruction through Shadow.

It is not the Shadow itself that is Evil, per se, but rather how it is used and for what purposes.

At least that is my take on it.

Hope that is of some help..

Alucian
06-17-2006, 01:41 AM
I can see how that can be used to explain why Shadow priests aren't shunned from the general order. They're still considered to be using the Light properly. It may all be in the mind of the wielder...which would explain why, say, Arthas was still able to wield his Light-given powers while slaying the citizens of Stratholme.

I've always considered Light-wielders to be a form of "chaotic good"...in that as long as they believe they are doing good, their powers are with them. The ability to wield or not wield dwells in the mind. As long as Arthas felt that brutally murdering his people was in fact saving them, he could still heal and such as he saw fit. It wasn't until he accepted the evil power of the Lich King and slayed his father that his powers shifted to Shadow.

I've also never been totally clear on whether Troll and Undead priests actually wield the Light. I doubt in the former, but I'm curious about the latter. It would be interesting if they still did.

Also, thanks for putting all this together, Nouri. I'd read bits and pieces in different places, but it's so nice to get it all in one place so it can be assimilated in one continuous thought.

Anyone else have any views on this? I think we've gotten enough from the "lore guru"'s corner.

Fallacy
06-17-2006, 03:23 AM
Arthas is sort of a different matter. Arthas only went on his rampage because he saw it as the only way to save those people from servitude to Mal'Ganis's forces once they succumbed to the Plague. He wasn't quite influenced by the Lich King, yet, but he was becoming more desperate, perhaps due to the horrors he had seen. Arthas himself only fell due to his soul being devoured by Frostmourne, which allowed the Lich King total control over his new death knight. So, Arthas, in fact, never fell from the Light, but was caught in an intricate trap to become the new vessel for the Lich King's mind. Arthas, the good, may still exist in some way, lost within his desperation and suffering, just as Medivh's soul fought against Sargeras's control and was able to survive, even until his resurrection.

EnheilRas
06-17-2006, 04:28 AM
More on this can be found through the Book "Blood and Honor" about Tirion Fodring and Eitrigg of Blackrock.

It shows that the Church does indeed have a ritual to "strip" the powers of the Light from its followers.

However, those of true and honest conviction can regain them.

Jethril_Blackflight
11-11-2006, 06:44 PM
No, the Naaru are just manisfetations of the Light; pure, uncorpeal energy beings. They seem to be a race that discovered the Light ages ago, or maybe are creatures of pure Light. Another possibility is that they were originally mortal beings who managed to use the Light to 'ascend', much in the same way as the Ancients in Stargate: Atlantis. And, I mean, it was still the Light before. The paladins and priests did not just spontaneously heal other people using their 'good will'.

Oh, and the blood knights say, "May the Light bend to your will."

Shadowspeak
11-11-2006, 07:02 PM
Here is what I think-

-Both the light and the Shadow can be manifested and used to the wills of others, even if their cause is good or evil. Light 'heals' things, most of the time, but can be used to attack (holy fire, smite, holy shock, ect). It's the reverse with Shadow, attacking most of the time, but healing some of the time (V. Embrace and Devouring plague). I believe the good and evil entities can use both sides for whatever cause suits them.

-Both sides have their 'angels' so to speak. The Light has celestials, Hopes and whatnot, while the Shadow has their Shadowfiends and other twisted denzeins.

-The light is viewed as good, because it heals. Shadow is viewed as evil because it hurts. You can see in light, you can't see in shadow. People are scared of what they can't see, it makes their imagination run wild.

-Both are worshiped simply by what they are, none of them have a specific name or god entity. My priest I roleplay a Priest who was found by a 'god' of Shadow to do his bidding. In my priests mind, there are many Gods of every type of power such as fire, ice, light, shadow, earth- ect. His god is simply one of the ruling Gods of Shadow (as far as he knows).

Shadowspeak
11-11-2006, 07:07 PM
Either way, I will let my Imagination go whereever I want it to go. Lore sucks.

<-- Thinks Manus needs to learn to be less technical.

Raziel
11-11-2006, 07:10 PM
In all technicality, you're not exactly playing a true lore-based character, or at least, to a point, one fully empowered with the ideals within the strict boundries of said universe. To have a problem with this concept would make me quite hypocritical.

Shadowspeak
11-11-2006, 07:12 PM
I dont care to play a lore based character, and I don't think anyone else objects besides yourself.

Raziel
11-11-2006, 07:27 PM
But I said quite the opposite. Not to take offense, but surely you would know that the former was quite non-lore based as well. In no instance was any command nor comment ever addressed towards a disapproval by any means over your own character concepts. Merely, it was by simple observation of why no such comment had been made concerning it. I can admire someone whom puts forth an effort to make a clean cross-genre leap quite seamless. From experience I know this can be hard, and the difficulty is further raised to have such planar leapings of universes widely accepted by forum majority. This is not an easy feat at all.

You should readily placate yourself from further offenses.

Jethril_Blackflight
11-12-2006, 04:01 PM
...if that is what your character, Shadowspeak, truly thinks... can I have some of what he is smoking? If you like games revolving around elemental gods, you can go play AdventureQuest or DragonFable. I have a level 60 on AQ, and a level 12 on DF. Though in all honesty, they aren't too good in an RP sense. But I still like them. The Old Gods don't really count as elemental gods. Nor do the Titans, though Sargeras is basically at god status by now. The only real god so far is Elune, and maybe even where the Light's power originates from. Though it could originate from spirituality, like creation, hope, faith, life, etc.

Raziel
11-12-2006, 04:03 PM
No Elemental Gods eh? Tell that to Ragnaros, Therazane, Al'Akkir, and Neptulon. I'm quite sure they'd be rather surprised to hear such a thing.

Also, if I might add, that Elune is not a Goddess, but an Ancient. She is the embodiment of the Moon, named Mu'sha in Taurahe. Elune and Malnorne were the 'Zeus and Hera' of the Ancient Pantheon, to which most Kalimdor species equally worshipped.

The Titan Pantheon, respectively known as the Aenir and Vanir and mirror identically after the Norse Viking Pantheon, are considered to be the primary religions of the Eastern Kingdoms.

Shadowspeak
11-12-2006, 04:05 PM
He worships an entity that is powerful and spoke to him in the middle of his sleep while he was still a corpse.

How does that turn him into an insane? He has a God, much as the Humans have the light, he has the shadow. His 'shadow' has a name and a form, and actually speaks with him. How is that wrong?

Shadowspeak
11-12-2006, 04:06 PM
As a certian person said once before... slavery to the lore, is the death of imagination.

Shadowspeak
11-12-2006, 04:07 PM
View my 'god' as the Ragnaros of Shadow. Thats a better way to put it.

Jethril_Blackflight
11-12-2006, 04:14 PM
LFRaid Shadow Rag. Need healer and tank.

Jethril_Blackflight
11-12-2006, 04:15 PM
And the Elemental Lieutenants are not gods. While powerful beyond imagination, they are not unstoppable.

Raziel
11-12-2006, 04:19 PM
You do realize that Ragnaros as is shape in the Molten Core is one of incredible weakness right? This is why the Firelord is soaked, hidden in the core as he slowly regains his strength from being the victim of a ritual gone horribly wrong (and lead to the destruction of Thaurrisan). His power is fragmented, this is why he needs the runes to protect him in this weakened state.

Had you dare fought any of the Elemental Lords while their connections to the Elemental Sphere were not severed (as is the case with Ragnaros. He does not have the Power of the Firelands to draw upon), no amount of mortals would have a chance against him; very astounding considering Ragnaros is one of the weaker Lords; Al'Akkir and Neptulon are both considered far more powerful than he. Al'Akkir more notably being perhaps the most vicious and malevolent of the four.

Raziel
11-12-2006, 04:21 PM
And the Elemental Lieutenants are not gods. While powerful beyond imagination, they are not unstoppable.

I disagree. As they were Lieutenants of the Old Gods, that does not themselves deviate them to being non-divine in nature. The Old Gods were a force of chaos incarnate. Chaos itself is the entropic blend of primal elements. The Elemental Lords were not created from any power of the Old Gods, but they themselves were incarnate of the four most primal energies. This gave them absolute power in each of their four respective realms in the Elemental Sphere. I believe that, in totality, classifies them as gods.

Jethril_Blackflight
11-12-2006, 04:26 PM
They are just powerful incarnations of their element. There are probably many more throughout the Great Dark Beyond. All of them except Therazane were on the more chaotic nature of their element, while there are other, more peaceful elementals, like those who hold court at the Throne of the Elements in Outland.

Raziel
11-12-2006, 04:41 PM
All others are merely servents to the Lords.

Jethril_Blackflight
11-12-2006, 04:44 PM
...no. LTPShaman

Shadowspeak
11-12-2006, 05:46 PM
Raz pretty much made my point here clear.

Jethril_Blackflight
11-12-2006, 05:51 PM
Not all elementals are servants of the chaotic Elemental Lords. The Elemental Lords were only ruler of the Azerothian Elementals.

Fallacy
11-12-2006, 07:29 PM
The Elemental Plane did not even exist before the Titans created it and banished the Elemental Princes there, which is the reason for its existence. In that respect, a single Prince was nowhere near a match to one of the Titans, only the Old Gods, and only one Titan died in that conflict. Neither do they hold complete control over the element themselves, else shamans would be complete slaves to them, in the way that warlocks often fall subject to the Burning Legion. They were probably the most powerful over the elements, but they were just that, not the ultimate rulers of it forever more. Even in accordanance with the Encyclopedia that Blizzard has just placed up, there are no true gods in the Warcraft universe, not even the Titans or the Old Gods.

With the order that the Titans brought to Azeroth, the elements were brought to the same state. The true balance is what shamans practice today, reverence and respect, not the use of war that the Princes just used it for. The Throne of Elements in Nagrand is also evidence of this, having very powerful spirits and elementals, but at conflict with those who have been corrupted or are seeking to use their powers for their own gain. Orcish shamans would have had absolutely no knowledge of the Elemental Princes before coming to Azeroth, as they were only resticted to it.

Raziel
11-12-2006, 08:01 PM
...no. LTPShaman

The Shaman are Brothers to the Elements. There is a Bonding; a type of companionship that is, pardoning the pun, elemental to the profession. It's a respectful reverence to the Powers that they derive their abilities. This can be learned from some Shaman that have not only discovered a harmony with the chaos that are the primal elementals, but have earned a respect in the Elemental Society and can speak in the Elemental Tongue (Take the Female Tauren south of Ratchet, For example. A Lieutenant of Neptulon sits by her side, and they talk to each other in the native Elemental Tongue).

It is not something of slavery. That would imply that Shaman are parasitic of the Sphere's Influence over the Primal Energies. It is something of Symbiosis. The Shaman keep this energy in check. Much like how Druids seek a Balance with the Mystic Powers of Nature, Shaman seek a Balance with the Primal Forces of Nature. One could argue that without Shamanism, natural disasters would be a lot more common in the worlds without any force to check them, to control them, because there is a very obvious communication going on between Shaman and the Elemental Beings whose powers they learn to duplicate.