Views on PvP

[Grisch]

I often end up in some heated debates about PvP. Someone recently asked me why I seem to get so ...intense... about various things in PvP. After trying to explain it to them, I recently came across this post on the VangaurdSOH forums.

This puts into words pretty much my feelings exactly, and why WoW PvP always leaves me feeling just a little bit empty. URL and quote for your convenience. http://vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55937



Hello, my name is Xyrrus and I am a pvper.

My first expierences in PvP were with the simutronics games Gemstone and Dragon Realms. That was a long long time ago (played Dragon Realms in its beta) but if I remember correctly anyone could swing at anyone else at any time. The catch was that PvP could be considered grief play if done without reason. That is, if a thief picked your pocket and you caught him you would be fully justified in cutting him down. If a person was taunting you or bothering you, you could attempt to teach him a lesson.

The odd thing is, I don't remember there being any "random pks" in gemstone or DR. I remember it being a very serious thing when you attacked another player - as serious as sombody pulling a gun on you IRL. I'm not sure if GS/DR are still the same way; I know there are some people out there who play Simu games so if I'm off base I want to be corrected.

Anyways, that's my ideal game. You are always vulnurable to being attacked by anyone at any time, but it is considered a "big deal." If you pull a sword on somebody in a city, the guards should haul your ass away. If there are witnesses to you killing sombody you can bet there will be people after you.

More recently, I played an elf on Vallon Zek. VZ was very interesting because the culture was so much diferent. Nobody used PvP as a roleplay tool, and it was more of a battle between these diferent factions of players. The server was supposed to be elves vs. shorts vs humans vs darks but that's now how it turned out. I quickly learned the game was "purists" vs "lighties" vs. "darks" vs. "4 teamers". It was really interesting how the server's ruleset changed based on the actions and decisions of the players.

I should mention at this point I don't really like "jumping" other players - I'm not that into pvp fighting in genral at all, really. I'd say this puts me in a minority.

Stuff I like about pvp:
-Togetherness. Guilds on the zeks seemed to be closer knit as you depended on them more for survival rather than just loot.
-Fear. To me a world in which I can be attacked in butcherblock by a dwarf bandit is far more immersive than a world in which I can go into bb and say, "oh I'm safe everything here is green to me"
-Roleplay. I can strike down other players who insult me. I can cast a fireball at somebody to show them I mean business.
-Server dyamics. Guilds grow in power far more on a pvp server. There's an extra incentive to getting better weapons first because it means you've got an edge up on defending yourself.
-Realism & consequences. Nobody is holding my hand preventing me from attacking my friend. Nobody is preventing my group mate from attacking me if I ninja loot.

Stuff I don't like about pvp.
-Quake style players. People who kill for the hell of it. This breaks realism and roleplay. Make killing have more consequences than in EQ. Bandit type players should be outcasts. "Oh well its ok because he only kills half elves" shouldn't be a viable excuse for a guard letting a human pker into a city.
-Bad mechanics. Bind camping, Manaburn, unresistable spells. Zoneline jumping, plug pullers, using faction tricks to get guards to attack me. Training mobs on me and then feigning. Ungh!
-People who don't understand why I play on a pvp server. "You don't like pvping? Why are you on this server then!" Because the fear of something I don't like adds to the game.
-Unsafe cities. Most major cities I should be able to sit down and go afk in.

I know there are players out there who really like parcipating on a full open pvp server - I'd really like to see a PVP+RP server with a really well fleshed out set of consequences for pvp play.

-Xy

If you've got the time to read through that, I'd appreciate anyone else's views on it.

[Laron]

Well my thoughts on PvP. I have always thought of being able to attack someone should be reserved for people who have insulted me. I don't Duel, unless I mean it. And As I have said many times, I do not attack Horde unless you have either A) attacked me first, or B) attacked one of my party members. I will usually let a much yonger opponent live. From an RP standpoint.

Give them a scar to remind them not to start fights they can't finish.

Honor before Victory.

[Tillna]

This is what I thought the game was going to be mroe like...
But Hiffy was talking about this, to kill allies...
Liek in Morrowind, the way the combat works in towns.

[Grisch]

Can anyone translate?

[Tillna]

Can anyone translate?
Ever play morrowind?
If you attack in a town, you get all the gaurds on you.
but, if you insult enough, you can get some one else to attack you.
Good game, suggest you check it out

[Grisch]

Heard a lot about Morrowind. Apparently there is a sequel out now that is amazing.

[Laron]

Yes, yes it is. Oblivion rocks.

But anyway back to the PVP discusion, I also feel that you shouldn't be able to attack someone who is grey to you, unless they strike first.

[Tillna]

Heard the same.
If ya got a good comp or a 360, buy it.
I have no cahs so I cannot

And on topic, I agree with Laron. and stop camping in SM

[Fallacy]

The problem with Morrowind is that you could get so powerful, the guards could barely touch you, especially if you used a magic bonus to your jump to escape to the rooftops. I loved doing that, dropping down on someone, stabbing them in back (often killing them in one hit, go Keening!), and getting away before the guards could find me.

Anyway, this would really disrupt some of the gameplay of WoW. With the lack of enforcement already, people would be griefing each other to no ends, and rogues and hunters would get away with it all again.

[Tillna]

up the gaurds perceptions. Or, like he said make it immediate. Or keep it the way it is.
I dunno...

[clys]

My thoughts on PvP:

Everyone should die but me.

Thank you.

[Tillna]

My thoughts on PvP:

Everyone should die but me.

Thank you.
We must kung-fu fight!

[Syreena]

I think it would be a lot of fun, and make more RP-sense, if we could attack anyone, regardless of faction, race, guild, etc. But since we can't, I'd like to see more people use duels as an OOC tool to give someone an IC beating for IC reasons, instead of just practice fights.

In my old game, deaths had meaning. Depending on your level, if you didn't have a rare item, your character could be dead for anywhere from two days to a week. I never played EQ, but in UO, if you were killed by another player, they could take your stuff. There was more risk to fighting other players, because there were consequences if you lost.

In WoW, the worst that will happen to you is that you'll have to run back to your corpse or suffer resurrection sickness. There is no risk in losing anything if you attack another player, so it's going to be more common. You might get honor points for killing them, but that doesn't hurt them, because you're only competing with your own faction for honor.

[Grisch]

Yeah, in a nutshell, my issue is that death and killing others is taken too lightly. It's turned into a Quake game.

I'm starting to believe that if there was a much stronger death penalty, people's rep would be more important and they'd be more mindfull of their actions.

[Tillna]

penalty for killing htem.
If I could kill Say..
Cyls, and she owuld be dead longer. I would do it, if she killed me.
just a thought is all

[Daedraug]

Yeah anything not equipped, including money, was lootable in shadowbane. It certainly had its faults, but I once killed a traitor outright before we kicked him out of the guild. That was a very cool experience.

[clys]

((Well as soon as you make the death penalty greater, you also increase the frustration and anger that griefers can generate. If you could restrict the server to like-minded mature RPers, sure it would be great. But that ain't gonna happen.))

[Grisch]

((Thing is, once that agravation reaches critical point in people, they either fold and go to a non-pvp server, or they get organised and make life absolutely miserable for the griefers.

Granted I could be talking out my rear here, as the only other MMO I've played besides WoW is Ragnarok Online. But from everything I've read from old school PvPers, the above sounds correct. ...Got to remember them bloody OOC brackets...))

[Xeran]

((Interesting points all. There is a game coming out, I want to say it's Vangaurd, but I'm not sure, where you can kill anyone on a PvP server, even your own faction. The mitigating factor is EVERY kill effects your rep with someone. If you want to kill your own faction's lowbies as soon as they zone into the starter zones, you can. Your rep will rapidly decrease until you will not be allowed in your own towns anymore. You can't get into your enemy towns either. So you're screwed. It is possible in the game to live as a total outsider, but it is very, very hard.

In WoW, life and death are cheap. Some people couldn't care less about honor (or dishonor). They PvP because the game allows it and act like asses because no one will stop them.

WoW reminds me a lot of feudal Japan. In feudal Japan, a samurai could kill another samurai over various infractions and they would not be punished harshly over it (depending on the infraction). However, they often had to report the fight to the local police force to let them know what happened and explain why the other guy is dead. The samurai had the right to defend themselves violently, however, total chaos would not be tolerated. I am thinking that PvP actions in WoW are similar. You have battlegrounds in which players are supposed to kill each other, and world PvP where players can kill each other outside of "official" consent of their faction. Some quests are also designated PvP quests where player conflict is expected.

Idea: any player engaging in PvP outside a battleground or a "PvP" designated quest needs to speak to the local magistrate before being allowed to complete more quests in that area. The magistrate will charge them some gold (or materials) for disturbing the peace and the player can then go on their way. This would allow for world PvP, provided you were willing to accept the consequences.

Example:

You are questing along in EPL and there's a rogue that is taunting you and being a nusiance. You kill the rogue. They come back again and attack, so you kill them again. You finish the quest and talk to the quest-giver at the chapel. They won't let you complete the quest because "the magistrate wants to speak with you." You go see the magistrate. They basically say, "we're heard you've been fighting and while the circumstances may have warrented the attacks, we fine everyone fighting here 2 gold and 20 runecloth." So you pay up. You can now complete your quest and get more quests.

The amount varies per number of kills and depending on who won or lost in the area and who started it. If you didn't start the fight and lost: no charge. If you didn't start the fight and win: minor charge. If you started the fight and win: full charge. The point is: fighting has consequences. They could even make the system increase the amount for those who are known troublemakers. The amounts charged should be affordable for most players under reasonable circumstances but should also be prohibative enough to keep idiots from their "OoOoo <opposite faction> I must attack always without thinking about it first and then camp them."

Also: I'm not new to PvP though this is only the second MMORPG I've played. I used to play a game called "Heavy Gear II." It's mechanized robot war. We had unspoken rules about whom to attack and how and for the most part people played by those rules. When someone zoned into a combat area, no one was to attack them for either three seconds or until they started shooting to allow their loading screen to go away. We didn't camp spawn points for other players. We could also communicate cross team and *gasp* actually helped each other play the game better. Some people would drop from a team with too many people to help the under-manned team fight.))

[Daedraug]

Yeah it was a funny thing is SB. You fought wars, complete with sieges and formal declarations, against other guilds. People HATED eachother, and KoS lists were huge. However, I didn't know what camping was until I came to WoW.

See, I think that once you can take someone's cash/loot etc., the need to camp kinda goes away. Does that mean there's no grief? Of course not, but there was a much higher level of excitement when you finally got a run drop someone needed and had to run away before someone mugged you for it.

[Malebrignon]

I'd love to see a complex PvP system with guards that worked. I used to play Asheron's Call on the Darktide server. I truly miss those days. Every PC spoke a common language and everyone could attack everyone else.

Suprisingly, just like mentioned above, folks did not constantly gank each other. They went about their business. When someone acted up, they got put down. Period. Even if someone in your own allegiance (guild) acted poorly, you could smack them down for it. Death not only involved the painfully long corpse-walk, but you'd lose 1-5 of your most valuable items.

It took me about 4 months to get sick of the WoW carebear servers. I walked around perma-flagged expecting to find other RPers who did the same. I DID find a few "honorable nemeses" that I'd do battle with when our paths crossed, but more often than not, a couple of blue stealthers would walk through me and waste me and then laugh at me for being flagged. That got frustrating REAL quick and helped drive me to this server.

So, now I'm under a supposedly PvP ruleset that still chooses who I can and cannot attack for me. I can't communicate with my enemies. Most of the folks I'd like to corpse camp are members of my own faction, so I can't even hurt them. World PvP could be described as "unfulfilling" at best, especially when we can easily take an ENTIRE CONTESTED ZONE with NO OPPOSITION. The only remotely satisfying PvP to be found here occurs in the stupid Battlegrounds, and even that only happens if you don't stomp your opponents so bad that they refuse to requeue. And... well... I'm rambling.

WoW's PvP is broken. From what I've been told, it's been broken from the start. The PvP system certainly does not lend itself well to RP in any way, unless you want to RP a civilian who hangs out in town and makes dresses. If that's your thing, more power to ya, but ya don't need to pay 15 bucks a month to make that happen. Before they put in all the DKs, and the honor rewards to make folks actually care about the DKs, world PvP was at least "some" fun. Now, PvP is a grind for faction like the majority of the supposed "endgame" content.

Rambling again. Stopping now. Sorry.

[Aquizit]

[ Eh.. if I had someone looting my crap every time I was killed in random pvp I'd be dirt poor! And have 2nd rate gear!

Meh, sorry.. I'm not that good at pvp, the current system is fine enough. ]

[Xeran]

((Some of the current games allowing for the looting of fallen players alliviate the player's losses by having it so:

- The best items in the game are craftable
- Crafting is cheap
- The items are not that different from each other stat-wise

So you won't have a chest piece taken from you that it took you 30 instance runs to get. Also, you'll have three more chest pieces exactly like it in the bank. Just grab the next one, and away you go.))

[Chavie]

wishupon

[Jorah]

I think being able to engage in same-faction PvP would add a lot to the PvP / RP PvP servers in WoW. As for griefers, any game that allows "indiscriminate" PvP will have them. Sooner or later they and their Guilds / Clans / Coroprations become known and can be dealt with in whichever fashion people choose - KoS lists and so on. Also as some people have suggested here, if you engage in such things your reputation with that faction will decrease - do it too often and you'll never be able to set foot in Stormwind / Orgrimmar / Ironforge again (or at least till your bad rep wears off.) It may or may not be a good idea for Guilds to be able to take and hold territory, but it'd be interesting to see what might happen if they could.

As for battlegrounds, yeah I think that it's just a mindless (but fun imo) grind as it stands - I'd like to see Blizzard make BG's "worthwhile" in more than just a means for individuals to earn their ranks and PvP gear - maybe have relics, as in DoaC - capture the keep and control the relic, which then gives all your faction a buff as long as they hold it.

Going back to the free-for-all PvP, maybe it could be implemented voluntarily - either as a new type of realm, or by allowing players to flag themselves - if you're flagged you can be attacked by your own faction PCs, but your attacker is then also flagged. This would give the Mercenary / Peacekeeper Guilds some real - well "purpose" isn't probably the right word, but you'll understand what I mean. Mercs can actually fight for whoever pays them, even turn coats in the middle of a battle. Peacekeepers can interpose themselves and actively police cross-faction events - they won't be able to attack the perpetrators unless they're flagged (think of it as the UN - you can observe but not intervene until attacked) - it's only a matter of time before someones AoE attack or spell goes astray - how many people reading this has witnessed a wipe in Zul'Farrak caused by some mage or 'lock letting loose amongs those scarabs? /raises hand).

The faction PvP shouldn't be that hard for Blizz to implement - you're flagged as an enemy temporarily when duelling, and I imagine it wouldn't be that much different.

As for looting dead PCs - I'd hate to lose my stuff after being ganked, especially if it was one of my own faction who'd ganked me, but again there should be more of a penalty for getting killed, and battlefield looters are a fact of military life (Geneva Convention / Rules of Engagement / Articles of War aside) it still happens - call them souvenirs if you want...