Another rant type situation

[Hifazat]

Hello all, finally near a PC after 7 days. Its amazing the withdrawal one goes throught with no PC :D

Anyway i was checking the TN forums and I saw the Maidens of Elune's fashion show and that horde will be showing up. I am so happy I am not going to be there.

Not because i don't like them or the event. But more like if i was there I would have to actively meta-game, force my character to do something he should not do to take OOC issues into consideration. It annoys the hell out of me.

So the question is should one like ignore my RP and take OOC issues into consideration like not disrupting an event where the Horde will be?

Had this been my old NWN server, I would have never needed to take that into consideration. I would have gone with my RP because people would understand that.

Sadly on the alliance side i feel that too few people can make the distinction.

Anyway any comments? Does RP reign supreme or shall a player actively meta-game for the sake of someone else's RP?

[Tyrsza]

Well, I don't have much to say on the topic, although I think in light of events like the Tears Ball it should be discussed. However, they changed the event to not allow horde. Apparently, some of the maidens would kill horde on sight, so the horde sympathizer (I know I mangled the spelling on that one... ) warned them off.

[Karkarov]

What is your question? I dont see how meta gaming has anything to do with it. Unless you are questioning how the horde know about the event in the first place?

[Grisch]

To be blunt, you should have thought of that when you created the character.

If you're going to run a very quirky, fanatical, whatever type of out-there character, you have to first considder how it's going to affect everyone else's Rp and be willing to face the IC and OOC consequences.

I've played enough pen and paper roleplaying games to know that roleplaying is about making it fun for the other guys. The least important person at the table is yourself.

When I just started out, I'd have situations where my carefully written module I'd created would constantly be shot to hell, because of petty infighting in the party, creating fights, characters killing each other, backstabbing each other and generally mucking up everything so badly, that the bad guys just had to sit and wait for them to kill themselves.

When you hear: "I'm not going to help player 'X' fight the monster, I'm evil remember! I'll rather wait till it kills him and then loot his corpse."

"No, I'm not going to talk to anyone else in the party, I have no reason to like them. My character is anti-social."

"No, I'm not going to tell anyone else in the party about the giant blueberry muffin's evil plan to take over the world! I have no reason to trust them! "

"No, I'm not going into the tavern with the rest of the party, I'm a ninja remember! I'm going to skulk on the roof outside."

These types of characters bring NOTHING to the table for anyone else. Rarely even themselves.

If you're going to be a rude bastard to everyone you Rp with, of course they're not going to enjoy it. Regardless of whether you're Rping a rude bastard or not. You won't have people who want to hang out with you, because you're unpleasant. So you eventually end up with a loner character that might as well be playing an offline FPS.

Sure, you kill horde on sight. That's fantastic. So you're either going to miss out on interacting with half the population of the server in any more meaningfull manner than casting fireball, or you're going to stop everyone else from interacting with them. How exactly does this enrich anybody's Rp experience including your own?

In short, it's every players personal responsibility to make a character that can fit into and bring something enriching to the world, not the other way around.

[Kurohane]

I think he meant, moreso, ignoring your character's beliefs, personality, and the actions they would take if not driven by an OOC being, in order to keep the "peace" for the sake of another RPer.

[Grisch]

In that case Kurohane, ask yourself which of the two options will enrich other players experience more and take that option.

[Tillna]

Well, Kei would be very agressive, but respect the peace
Shig would summon her infernal and sit their in the corner
Celcia would wonder why the Trolls are taller and have even bigger breast then Lovely's.
Toppe would poke em, then see hwatthey did.
enough said there

[EnheilRas]

I'd kill the Alliance Maidens to help the Horde's chances of winning.

[Alucian]

Isn't this the same argument that was made when Serenity Now (right?) took out that group of mourners in Winterspring? They're all Horde, and SN was all Alliance...and what they would do, since they were all bastards, would go and slay the Horde when they were at their weakest.

RP justifications can be made for that kind of behavior. If you think your character would do something rather than just ignore the whole thing, then do that. Just don't get bent out of shape when people don't want to hang out with you anymore cause you pissed in their Cheerios one too many times. :)

[Tillna]

Isn't this the same argument that was made when Serenity Now (right?) took out that group of mourners in Winterspring? They're all Horde, and SN was all Alliance...and what they would do, since they were all bastards, would go and slay the Horde when they were at their weakest.

RP justifications can be made for that kind of behavior. If you think your character would do something rather than just ignore the whole thing, then do that. Just don't get bent out of shape when people don't want to hang out with you anymore cause you pissed in their Cheerios one too many times. :)
Sorry hiff...Rohan though tit was funnyif I did that!!
*Hides as he has a huge problem fighting warlocks

[Hifazat]

Karkarov to quote my question again.


Does RP reign supreme or shall a player actively meta-game for the sake of someone else's RP?

That was the last sentence in my post so that people did not miss it.

Grisch since you are being blunt, i allow myself the same liberty. My character is not really the concern. The concern is when people actively ignore the difference between IC action and OOC action. If any person does that they are meta-gaming and not roleplaying. After all why should IC actions affect OOC considerations. If that is done, you don't belong on an RP server.

On making it fun. I personally have found the most unorthodox characters to be the most interesting. Ceclia by Keisori is an excellent example. I personally don't agree with the stereotypes that have been forced down our throats since Tolkien.

Sadly my character is not as one-dimensional as your examples are.

However I disagree with your idea that a character is to be made to fit in. Absolutely not.

What makes RP great is the ability to suspend reality and enjoy unique and engaging characters. That in my eyes means not only playing a typical paladin but adding a unique twist that makes the character not a stereotype.

I will not conform to what you or anybody else thinks "should" be. After all why bother playing when people meta-game and just waste RP.

You have played PnP and I bet you DM. Then do this as a DM. Consider me the PC version of the villian you create in your sessions.

As for enriching someones RP experience? I can easily give you 3 examples off the top of my head.

1. It causes strife with in the Alliance. Some agree with me some do not. This leads to unique RP discussions on whether I am evil or not.
2. On the horde side it adds a sense of hatred for some or fear for some. Some recognize me some do not. Some can willing actively hunt me I do not care. Camp me even I don't mind. I will just call for help :p
3. Lastly it directly affects Sanctuary as a guild because I am the very opposite of what you stand for. I mean seriously you can't find any RP story lines and arch that does not link the two of us?

I can easily come up with more.

When I created this character - my second on this server - I was ready for RP consequences. What I was not honestly ready for was people meta-gaming and not taking RP for RP. That is not my problem. That is their problem. I just am on the recieving end of "bad" RP.

Keisori you know me and RP. As part of the Keepers I allow free-form RP. So I will never ask you to conform or dictate to you what is acceptible.

If you felt you character should have done it IC - then I as a player OOC will not do anything to reprimand you. However if it was OOC like Echelon being asshats at the funeral, then you will be in trouble :p

To quote my question again to make it very simple:

Should you meta-game ie break RP so that someone else can RP?

[Tillna]

How is Celcia unorthadox?
Kei is pretty sterotyped...except for ONE huge fact.
He freaking lvoes femal trolls...Hiffy-kun knows why...
Shigana is different. She is lusty and loves to deal physicle pain. Actaully, she is sterotyped.
I love Hiff that he does NOT care what my chars think of him. Kei likes to push Hiffy's buttons, and Celcia loves Hif because she lieks to make him smile..heh

[Kurohane]

In that case Kurohane, ask yourself which of the two options will enrich other players experience more and take that option.

Guess I should have quoted, as we nearly posted at the same time, Grisch. I was trying to explain what I saw was the question to Karkarov.

[Fhenrir]

I am of the opinion that IC and OOC should remain completely separate, and that you should do what your character should do. When people are irritated OOCly it usually seems to be because that person did not get the result they wanted from whatever they were doing. Something unexpected happened and it pissed them off.

However, you must also take into consideration the lack of help Blizzard gives roleplayers. If the Alliance players want to turn and attack you for killing peaceful Horde, they cannot because of game mechanics. That is the kind of thing you should consider OOCly before you act IC, nothing more.

Doing something that people cannot respond to because of game mechanics = bad

Doing something your character would do = good

[Kiraena]

Doing something that people cannot respond to because of game mechanics = bad
/agree
/agree
/agree

To the question at hand...

In general you should do what your character would do. However, characters can bend the way you or I can. If there is no way to find a happy medium between the event at hand and your character, you have three choices.

1. Do as your character would and fully accept any IC and OOC consequences.

2. Go to the event ooc'ly.

3. Don't go at all.

[Chavie]

its not really worth

[Grisch]

You have played PnP and I bet you DM. Then do this as a DM. Consider me the PC version of the villian you create in your sessions.

One issue here. In nearly every story, whether tabletop RP or a book, the villain goes down at the end. Hard. The rest of humanity feels good about everything after this. It's one of the primary purposes of any villain. It demonstrates that good can triumph over evil. Decency can work and all that stuff.

So, when was the last time Hifazat got taken down by any heroes?

-----------

/target Chavie
/applaud

[Tillna]

I have knocked around a few times...
Hif is one of my best friends in wow, OOC..ICly, all his and my chars clash, badly

[EnheilRas]

So, when was the last time Hifazat got taken down by any heroes?

The one time he dared to Queue Alterac Valley

..and I saw him.

[Tillna]

So, when was the last time Hifazat got taken down by any heroes?

The one time he dared to Queue Alterac Valley

..and I saw him.
you didn't kill my Hiffy-kun, did you?

[Karkarov]

Ok if that is your point then here is mine. Why is going to the event meta gaming? Grisch is a dress collector who proposes peace with the alliance. It is perfectly within his RP to show up. Also meta gaming is not changing your character for the sake of another. Meta gaming is taking action with your character based on information your character doesnt actually have IC.

For example. In D&D I go into some dungeon and due to coincidence I have already played it with a different DM. I know from past gaming if I go left there is a trap down the hall. But my character doesnt. Now if I am always the paranoid lunatic going "ROGUE!!!! Search the area! Traps abound everywhere the little people are out to get us!!!" Then it is perfectly acceptable for me to say advise searching everywhere. But if my character is more a brash barbarian who is like "Me Rock, me kill all before me weakling dogs BRAHHH!" It would be totally out of character for me to ask for that hall to be searched even though I the player know a trap is down there.

So if I were playing the dumb brute and suddenly said "Wait uhhh brah! Guys we shuld a search the hall yeah!" I am meta gaming like a dork.

Anyway sorry for the lengthy post.

[Hifazat]

Chavie I would never consider another person's attempt at RP and their character direction grief. That honestly implies that there are certain acceptible norms for what a person can RP.

Grisch an excellent question. I have no clue because there has been no band of heros at all. The villian is present and active. Nobody wishes to be the hero. That again is not a concern of mine. If people wish to stop me or put an end to my ranting in game they are more than welcome to do so. I actually welcome it.

But it is not my fault that nobody has wished to end my "crusade" against the horde.

Karkarov i agree your example is not meta-gaming. However that is not the discussion we are having nor the question i am asking. I would take your example of Grisch and employ my question in its context.

There is an event and Grisch shows up IC to propose peace. That is perfectly within his RP to show up. However I am also present in the event. My RP says I am supposed to kill horde that are in alliance cities and towns.

I don't know he has come for peace IC. All i see is a horde character. The question I have to all is that am I within my right to RP out my character as I have designed him? Ie Is it perfectly within my RP to kill Grisch when he shows up?

Or should I actively meta-game ignore my characters actions views and desires so that Grisch can complete his?

That is my question.

Keisori the reason I say you RP well is that you choose characters that you have to go the extra mile to RP with. I remember when Cecila was a mute - could speak no common or nothing at all. I actually met you in Moonglade and helped you. That was a fun experience has you had to do everything through emotes. Not by language or words.

That is why i am so fond of your characters in game. They are unique and they require you to RP with them. It is a shame you had to switch her to being able to speak so you could get some RP in the game. But definitely a plus.

Manus I believe I have seen you once. My first time in AV actually. I will endeavour to find you more often so that you can feel my lack of epics powers. :p

[Tillna]

Celcia learned Darnassian from Keisori when eh found her. She learned Common form Barke, Lovely, Kei, Hif, Rohan *Wink* and others.
She is ridiciously happy all the time, she has ONLY cried once, when she Beserked all over sputnik, whom I also love to RP with.
Monday, I am getting some one in the guild or Apria to teacvh celcia about the birds and bees
see ya monday..Guildies

[EnheilRas]

So, when was the last time Hifazat got taken down by any heroes?

The one time he dared to Queue Alterac Valley

..and I saw him.
you didn't kill my Hiffy-kun, did you?

Not only him, but I saw Jerone right by him.

So I two-shotted Jerone.

[Keraph]

Personally, I believe that one should stick to their character. Call me selfish or whatnot, but I will RP Keraph exactly how I feel he should be RP'd. Say there's a big event, a Horde and Alliance peace treaty, organazation, something like that to promote peace. If it's something big that my character wouldn't have a reason to miss or some such, and I was attending with Infection, I would give the command to start the killing, whether or not the players behind the characters wished for us to refrain from violence. RP is about immersion, and breaking character for the sake of others is ridiculous. We can't have RP events that go a certain way, as planned, without taking outside intervention into account, because that isn't realistic. Anything can happen, so why bend your character to fit the mold of someone elses ideas?

[Grisch]

So in short, since we will ALWAYS have somebody playing an extremist, violent or chaotic character, who by their very nature find it impossible to be in the same area as the opposiste faction, we can therefore never hold any form of public event on this server that is not simply a free for all royal battle? As anything other than a no-holds barred battle will be 'breaking character' for somebody somewhere.

Dunno about you guys, but if that's the case, I could just load up Battlefield 1942.

[Keraph]

Hate me if you will, but the answer to that is yes. At least, there will always be the "possibility" of something like that happening.

[Gloomberry]

I'm reading the posts of people defending why they'd kill first and ask questions later, and I have to ask, is everyone a gung-ho berserker on this server?

If you're after realistic roleplay, then attacking every enemy within a split second of encountering them is a little ... well, I don't think it's realistic. Does your character have a death-wish, or does he/she honestly believe they will win every fight? I'd have thunk a seasoned fighter would pause and weigh the enemy up, gauge his strengths and weaknesses, before attacking. What if the enemy isn't alone, and has friends lurking in the trees nearby with arrows pointed at your head? There are countless ways you can roleplay it within context of your character.

Like I said, unless your character is a psychopathic gung-ho berserker with a death wish who has the ultimate confidence in his ability to beat any opponent, then claims of realistic roleplay are just silly.

Be flexible. I think some of you are too pedantic with your character's roleplay. I really don't give a shit if Gloomberry is inconsistent, and I really don't care what anyone thinks of that. I'm here for fun, and that includes just chilling out and taking a step back from PvP to allow the opposition a chance to interact and roleplay. If that conflicts with my character's disposition, well who cares. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one, as a pointy-eared alien once said. :wink:

Right. I'll never being invited to a RP event ever again. :roll:

And this is just my worthless opinion, it's not a flame directed at anyone in particular, so please don't take it that way. I really respect and admire the amount of work people put into their characters, it really is brilliant, and I don't want to piss all over that at all. I'm constantly amazed. I'm just saying that in a game played with other people, you need to be a little flexible in the roleplay of your character.

Compromise. THat's the word I'm lookin for at the bottom of my beer.

COMPROMISE.

And p[ay nice/.

and don't drink too much.

[Brakogar]

I have wanted to add my share to the discussion earlier but could not login from work.

Most people that play their character's 'personality' religiously without flexibility usualy end up having borring one dimensional characters like something out of a bad Saturday morning cartoon. It is only fun to the individual and people who have an very similar or identical character type. Their chosen 'blindness' to other possibilities usualy doesnt allow them to see that their ingame experience could be 'more' than what it already is.

This is a game with clear ooc barriers that cannot be circumbent with RP without making it ridiculous and cheesy and as a result there has to be a clear mix of ooc and ic when setting up compex RP events. Because people have different ideologies and are very inflexible regarding this, people are now forced to only share such events with similarly minded people (RP ideals not theme) and not with the entire community as they fear the cookie cutter 'Evil Rogue' to spoil the event's possibilities by causing everything to deteriorate to ganking.

The logic that I have encountered in-game in the past from 'IC fanatics' are the following:

1) My character would not participate in that event so I will stay away from it.

2) My charater is evil/full of hatred/insane and would do everything in his power to destroy such event.

The No 1 attitude inmediately causes you to missout in what could be a lot of fun, something that the player may actualy enjoy if they make the effort to adapt. Unfortunately this attitude will shut you away from anything that does not agree with your character's doctrine and makes you missout on a lot of fun as it makes you a "one theme character".

The No 2 attitude is the most destructive but somewhat similar to No 1. It just makes you into a bad comic book villain with only one dimension and the inability to participate on anything else other than a point less gankfest or borring uninspired raid. The worse part is that this attitude not only closes you to other possibilities of fun and diversity it also makes you into an asshole as the 'evil/gank' actions ruins the fun of others and most events that these people attend end up to be another gankfest or townraid instead of a complex character developing fun event.

This Religious attitude to stay in character without flexibility or imagination on adapting your character to an event with prearanged rules or an scenario is actualy more damaging to the RP in this game as it completly deteriorates the countless possible outcomes of the story into another gankfest or pointless raid. (When I refer to scenarios, I do not mean scripted events. Span your mind and you will see that there are other possibilities that allow you to act out your character's personality while still been able to participate and contribute to the course of an event without having it deteriorate into ganking or raid)

I have used this example before but it clearly applies to this argument:

During the Immortalis' first RP event which had a completly evil storyline and theme, it was something that the Frostwolf Brotherhood would normaly not participate in out of principal; but we attended because it was a ton of fun and it supported the Immortalis efforts to have a community event, something much needed at the time.

All that I had to do to explain the Brotherhood's role was that we disagreed with what the Immortalis were doing and were in fact disgusted by it as it went against our code of honor but we could not denie the opportunity to bring the fight to the Dwarves' heartland as retailiation for their invation of the Frostwolves' territory in Alterac Valley. We stablished in our RP that we would not participate in the poisoning of the lake but we will support the military invasion of Loch Modan. I only had to concentrate on one aspect of the event which agreed with our RP and accomodated the rest so that we could participate and support the event. Most rewarding was the fact that a little bit of flexibility allowed us to participate in an event that was actualy a lot of fun. The other option was yo just stand back in our own cortners and carry on with the grind of everyday gameplay while everyone else had all the fun.

Its not hard to be flexible it just needs creativity something that is seriously lacking in events these days, specially with the IC fanactics. If someone is really hardcore when it comes to the RP then all that one has to do is look at the event and give it their own spin so that one can attend and participate and have a share in all the fun.

I am in agreement with both Grisch's and Gloomberry's views. To me the fun of everyone participating is paramount and it is dumb to sacrifice such fun or purposely missout on it due to the religiously inflexible desire to remain 'true' to your character to a point that one closes all other possibilities outside his/her doctrine and the chance to have a ton of fun outside the cookie cutter standard raid/gank formulas.

[Keraph]

The question there is whether or not one cares for the other players behind the characters, and in the case of some, especially those that are either willing or are trying to be hated, we just couldn't care less ^^

Granted, the assumption is being made that one such as I would begin attacking without provocation. There is a difference between having an event be griefed, and simply having it go down an unexpected path. If Keraph decides that whatever is going on is not in the best interests of the Dark Lady, he may decide to try and do something. First, there would be words involved, something to make it known that there is a reason why we'd be "ruining" the event, though as I said, it is really just taking the event down a different path. Mind you, I don't go hunting for RP events to spoil, or anything remotely close to that, but I do stand behind the freedom to play your character however you want, regardless of the feelings of other players.

[Karkarov]

I don't know he has come for peace IC. All i see is a horde character. The question I have to all is that am I within my right to RP out my character as I have designed him? Ie Is it perfectly within my RP to kill Grisch when he shows up?

Or should I actively meta-game ignore my characters actions views and desires so that Grisch can complete his?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If that is your question then the answer is.... of course not. Unfortunately actual game mechanics do prevent you from really "stopping" him. So you would have to RP around that in some way.

[Hifazat]

Grisch instead of being pedantic and narrowing your view of the situation try to be creative. A couple of ideas off of the top of my head. If you have a character like mine who you do not wish to attend find ways to:

1. Bribe
2. Distract
3. Waylay

the character. You can bribe the character not to show up etc etc.

Though honestly my personal opinion is that you have OOC reasons for not agreeing with the type of character I play and thus are commenting to prove a point, that you have already formed without thinking it through.

Gloomberry, I believe I am the only gung-ho berserker on this server. Atleast from what I have seen, the Alliance side has far more players who do not see this as a war situation.

As for it being unrealistic, i beg to differ. Lets get a few ground realities on paper first.

1. There have been 3 wars in 30 years. The Orcs invaded Azeroth. They raped, murdered and pillaged their way across azeroth.
2. The Alliance won in Azeroth and moved to the Outlands to fight the horde menace. Then they established interim camps for the horde, where the orcs were treated worse than slaves.

Now with all this background, do you really think someone is going to see a horde in Stormwind and not attack if you are following the lore of this world being a war torn conflict filled land?

I won't use any real life examples as politics is not to be discussed on these forums.

If your enemy shows up, do you wait to find out what they want or do you take them out because they have the ability to cause some damage? It is simply a survival of the fittest routine.

As for my character I play an arrogant, self-confident, narrow-minded, extremist who believes the horde are a bunch of animals that need to be culled. Genocide if you will is what he wishes to accomplish. A warlock version of the scarlet crusade if you will.

Also nobodies opinion is worthless. If that was the case, i would have been told to shut up a long time ago :p

Brakogar, your first statement that inflexible characters are one dimensional is a personal opinion not a fact. I have seen many inflexible characters add the largest amount of depth to an RP environment as possible.

When a character is rigid it allows for people to have the ability to be creative. I know for a fact that is true. Seen it happen on 2 different NWN servers.

Your second statement is an opinion and I believe it is rather judgemental. After I can easily say that those who play peace-loving, spineless, diplomatic, easily manipulated (various different examples etc.) characters are one dimensional and only individuals who have similar or identical character types enjoy them. But neither comment affects my question or the RP of the players.

As for No.1 I agree completely, but that is a choice people should be allowed to make and should not punished for breaking the cookie cutter mold of someone who is tolerant, open-minded and peaceful (a concept very common on most RP servers).

As for No.2 I disagree. Evil does not automatically mean you are an asshat nor does it mean you are automatically going to destory something or someone on a mere whim.


This Religious attitude to stay in character without flexibility or imagination on adapting your character to an event with prearanged rules or an scenario is actualy more damaging to the RP in this game as it completly deteriorates the countless possible outcomes of the story into another gankfest or pointless raid.

Its ironic you say that because the same can be said for those who do not find creative ways to work around the "evil character". If you are not willing to have your event change its course, or have someone evil affect it and disrupt it uou are having the same religious attitudey you mention and your paragraph thus aptly applies to all. The one-dimensional evil character as much as the one-dimensional, peaceful or good character.

Finish the rest later off.

[Brakogar]

Keep in mind that I am generalising based on how most people are in the realm. The descriptions there and the 2 examples are not intended to describe anyone in particular.

Like I mentioned however; most RPers do fall under those catergories, particularly within the Horde and that has caused a large rift between people as community wide events are no longer held; only selected guilds are invited (evil or good).

People dont mind an evil bastard showing up to their event and change the direction that its going, but they do mind when someone just shows up /emotes a bit or says some standard 'evil sayings' and starts ganking putting a halt on the event before it takes off.

Let's be evil in a way that will carry an event forward (to any direction) not force it to stop in its tracks.

I have said this before; scripted events with a set course are borring but open ended structured events are not. They allow you to be your character (and perhaps develop him/her further) while allowing you to contribute to the direction the event is taking without it falling apart to mindless generic chaos.

Think of it like this:

In the Legends forum when someone wishes to have some open RP they create an scenario and situation where the written story is taking place. Then its left open for anyone to participate in the scenario and story that the OP created. It develops character and has a nice dynamic flow to it since it will allow people to contribute in carrying the story forward to any direction.

Now how horrible it is when someone makes a post that simply states:

"RedSword the evil Warlock and his friends walked into the middle of the bar; the Alliance and the Horde were ready to throw at each other's throats on some petty argument they were having. Redsword saw the Alliance and found them unworthy of existing in the realm so he used his gifts in the arts of the arcane along with his friends and killed them all. Thanks to Redsword Horde won that argument."

The above puts a stop to the flow of the Open RP. Some could be creative and write themselves out of the situation but that is a luxury that the game does not give us in an RP event (plus it would be stupid since not all the people killed can just 'come back').

[Keraph]

Post-by-post RP is vastly different to real-time RP, so a comparison is sorta moot.

Just take your thoughts of finding a "creative" way for us ebils to avoid ruining an event, and use them to find a "creative" way to work around it and let it develop further, cause some of us can be stubborn and unwilling to back down >:D

[Grisch]

The question there is whether or not one cares for the other players behind the characters, and in the case of some, especially those that are either willing or are trying to be hated, we just couldn't care less ^^


With this statement, the rest of this discussion is pretty much a moot point. I don't see any further reason to continuing the argument.

[Chavie]

Perhaps, to compromise, if your character needs to kill the opposing faction in a peaceful environment, your character should also accept any duels from people of your faction who are upset at what you are doing.

I think a lot of the frustration caused by such things is that the "good guys" of your faction can't do a thing to stop you unless you let them. So if you're going to gank or kill, let your own faction attack you as well.

luclucluc this has luc written all over it don't you say i don't want to kill luc but what do you do with a druken sailor?

[Keraph]

I absolutely agree, Chav, and would accept any duels in such a situation.

As for you, Grish, learn to be a bit more open-minded. It's not beneficial to an RP community to have such close-minded members.

[Grisch]

It's not beneficial to an RP community to have such close-minded members.

I could say members who "just couldn't care less" about other players are likely to be far less beneficial to the community.

I have nothing against someone who plays an evil-character. Unfortunately some feel that this means you need to act like an ass in real life too.

Clys is a perfect example of a well played evil character. The character has provoked more storylines, tensions, interaction and just general Rp than the majority of people on this server. Is Clys evil? By Thrall's hairy left butt cheek she's evil!

Has Clys ever been accused of griefing an event or storyline on this server? Has she ever 'broken character' that anyone can recall?

So maybe it's not so much a case of open-mindedness or people being accepting, but rather your role playing skill that needs to be adressed.

[Chavie]

zdfsjkngasdrh

[Fhenrir]

I don't think it's an "arguement", I think it's more of a discussion from two different points of view. However, it may be better off in Inferno Central.

Now, my opinion:

I believe there would be a way to "disrupt" an event evilly without simply resorting to PvP.

For example:
Thrall and Jaina decide to throw a tea-party. However, Sylvanas decides she is going to arrive and kill Jaina.

Now, Sylvanas arrives about an hour into their little tea-party. She could just walk in and start shooting her, using the built in system to alliviate thought for what she should do. However, she could also come in and shout "ahaha, Jaina's head will be mine!" and emote something about stepping into the room menacingly. Then allow the Horde and Alliance alike that are there peacefully a chance to respond to this new threat, and take it from there through emotes and actions that are not just PvPing.

This is not breaking your character in any way, but will allow people to respond to you. The things that have to be considered by both parties is that not everyone will approve of your IC actions no matter what you do, and conflict will arise. But the true monster is abusing gameplay mechanics to prevent people from responding the way their character would.

[Brakogar]

The question there is whether or not one cares for the other players behind the characters, and in the case of some, especially those that are either willing or are trying to be hated, we just couldn't care less ^^

Granted, the assumption is being made that one such as I would begin attacking without provocation. There is a difference between having an event be griefed, and simply having it go down an unexpected path. If Keraph decides that whatever is going on is not in the best interests of the Dark Lady, he may decide to try and do something. First, there would be words involved, something to make it known that there is a reason why we'd be "ruining" the event, though as I said, it is really just taking the event down a different path. Mind you, I don't go hunting for RP events to spoil, or anything remotely close to that, but I do stand behind the freedom to play your character however you want, regardless of the feelings of other players.


I do not think that this has anything to do with role playing skills. I tried to avoid going down this path in the argument since people with the sort of attitude that Keraph is displaying here usualy are too stubern (or selfish) to understand. I will however express my views as this attitude that Keraph is displaying is something somewhat unexpected and now in focus. I knew that he had different RP philosophies but clearly stating that he doesn't care about anyone else as long as he has his 'fun' changes the scope of the thread and my perception of him as well as that of others.

I really hope that I am misinterpreting your posts in this thread, Keraph. They sound to be more like the posts of people who are not here to RP but to grief and merely use the RP as the ultimate excuse.


You have said that you "coundn't care less" about other RPers in the community. Well that is very selfish and it implies that you are not simply arguing that you have the right to RP your character as you wish but that part of what you consider to be "fun" is ruining the hard work but most importantly, the fun of others. It seems as if you are only playing an Evil character not for the sake of RP but because it gives you the ability to make others feel bad and then argue that you are merely role playing your character.

What pisses people off in a so called "griefed" event is not the fact that the Event took a different turn than it was intended or anything like that. Its the fact that 9/10 times the people who come in and turn the event into chaos because their characters are evil do not really have RP in their minds. They are just there to grief and use the RP as a cover; they get an ooc kick out of seeing someone else's hard work get trashed and the frustration caused on other participants as the event did not have a chance to amount to anything. These people then enjoy the shield that the RP gives them as they can argue that all actions are according to his IC personality and even other people will support them in this.

Your statements here appear to be that you RP an evil character because it gives you an opportunity to grief others while safeguarding your ooc rep.

This attitude is trully sad and the reason why we can't have the grand RP events that we all dreamed off when we came to this server.

Most of our Epic story developments or complex RP has to be restricted to forum posts because of this attitude rather than in-game and its trully sad.

After the things that you said here you have no right to tell Grisch that he is closed minded. He is not the one saying that he could not care less about everyone else and will just go forth to have his fun at the expense of others.

Grisch's example of Clys is 100%. Clys should be the model of how an Evil character should be played as her actions do not halt the RP and cause chaos, but helps to develops the story further even if it takes a darker tone.

Clys' portrayal of an evil character has not only earned him the IC reputation as one of the most fiendish characters in the realm but has also earned him the ooc widespread respect as a quality and gifted RPer.

If I ever come back and host an RP event, Immortalis will be high up on my list of invitations as I know that even if their character actions may take the story into a darker path than intended it would still be developing the story. I am sure that Clys and Danlily would attend with the idea of having fun along with everyone else and not be there to simply turn the event into a gankfest that halts and ruins the RP for everyone else.

Its not a matter of simply playing an evil character its a matter of why you are playing an evil character. If you play one simply to satisfy some sadistic pleasure in watching other people's work and fun ruined then you are just among the countless griefers in the realm; the only difference is that you learned to use an almost bulletproof shield to cover yourself.

People who share your "just couldn't care less" mentality Keraph, are an obstacle to the Community wide development of the RP in this realm.

[Hifazat]

Its late yadda yadda - you get the idea. Just a few short questions to everybody.

Why do you feel RP should fit a certain type of mold? Why are people in this thread implying that there are acceptible norms of RP and others are unacceptible?

Lastly another question, since when do you have the right to judge if someone is a benefit or determent to the RP community, just because you don't agree with the "type" of RP that played out?

Just a general comment to all. If you can even consider any Rper's desire to RP as grief - pack up your bags now. The simple idea that you can judge RP to be grief is well idiotic.

[Tillna]

If you ever meet Shigana..a few of you have more and more...she is psychotic...She would kill a child Horde just because she was bored...
Hell, she kills Alliance when she can.
Cel would be happy to be somewhere exciting, and Kei would be hired help

[Xeran]

When RPing Xeran and faced with events there's always a couple OOC questions I ask myself:

1) Will Xer showing up and fighting be construed as participation or griefing?

2) Would Xeran possibly have a reason for going? Would Xer be within 100 miles of a fashion show? Not bloody likely.

3) Would showing up in character lead to PvP consequences or some other possibly undesirable result? Xer is very much in favor of "working things out" between the Horde and Alliance. If he were a killer type, he may have issues with the goings on. Or, instead of a fashion show, if the event was to poison the moat in SW, then he'd show up to fight.

4) Is there a way for Xeran not to know about the event or something more important to call him away? The most common way I deal with the possibilty of undesirable confrontation is for Xer to be unaware of the event or have something better to do. There are priorities in-game as well as in life so perhaps dealing with the Scarlet Crusade in WPL is more important than going to an event he doesn't agree with to the point of violence.

5) If confrontation is inevitable, give due notice. Let the event organizers know that Xer knows about the event, it's a high priority, and he has no choice but to use force of arms to stop it. This gives the planners the chance to change the event so he doesn't know where it is or otherwise can't attack, or to deal with him being there and fighting.

Bascially: WoW is a game. It is a MMORPG and there are more people trying to have "fun" than just me. Some people's definition of "fun" is different from my own. I try whenever possible not to let my definition of "fun" detract from someone else's. That last part is the main difference between RP-PVP servers and PVP servers. On a PvP server: having "fun" means being a total prick to ruin the game for as many people as possible. RP-PVP, for the most part, takes into account what other people want to do for fun.

Final thought: PvP actions have PvP consequences and RP actions have RP consequences. Want to be a corpse-camping douchebag? Knock yourself out. But expect the favor to be returned in spades. Want to RP a maniacal jerk that rolls need on things they can't use in instances? Go for it! I hope you like your crappy green armor because no one will raid with you anymore. There does come a point in RP and PvP where you just have to put a sock in it and deal fairly with the other participants because the person behind the other character would have less fun otherwise.

[Keraph]

Brak, you and I have always seemed to clash in ideas. The opinion I'm declaring now is the same as the last Nether Council meeting I remember seeing you at. I have absolutely nothing but respect for you, we just have different opinions, and if you're half as stubborn as me, you'll know that I'll stick to mine as much as you to yours.

Now, again, I am admittedly selfish in the way I consider my RP actions, but to be honest, I have never acted in a way that would be considered griefing at an event, and for any event that I might be tempted to do so, I've simply decided not to attend. But then, they were events I'd have little interest in anyways. I'm merely defending my right to act accordingly should an unfavorable situation occur, such as say, a peace treaty between Horde and Alliance. In such an event, I may be inclined to do everything in my power to prevent it, up to and including a slaughter of all Alliance members there. Is that griefing? I don't think there will ever be a definite answer, because there will always be people on both sides arguing it.

What I've been adressing the whole time was of course the original question of "Should I restrict what my character would do, (basically restricting your own RP) for the sake of the RP of others." And to that, I say absolutely not. Do whatever your character would do in a given situation. Nobody should influence the way you RP.

As for Clys, I agree completely that he plays a wonderfully evil character, but again, we RP in different ways sometimes. That is really the basis here. I feel, and I think this is what Hiz is trying to say too, that we are being asked to RP in a certain way, and that is stunting the growth of RP as a whole. As he said, if you consider the way I might RP to be griefing, then you're taking a very one-sided, close-minded approach to it.

Fhen: I agree completely. The severe actions I've mentioned would come after a lot of RPing through communication, and in compliance with the limitations of the game, allowing other characters to play their roles by accepting any duels that would represent their character trying to stop me.

Grish: I admit that in the heat of the discussion, I became a bit hot-blooded and lashed out at you. We've taken different opinions on an argument, and since we both seem so involved in making the other see our side, it can be a bit frustrating when no ground is made either way. I'm sorry for getting personal, that has no place here, so let's bring it back down to what it is, a difference of opinions.

Now, the one thing I disagree with in your post, is that you consider my potential actions a result of being an ass in real life. If Keraph intentionally changes the course of an event based on his beliefs, even if you call it griefing, he's the one being an ass. I'm just playing him how I feel he would be, with absolutely no outside influence based on how people will "like" it. I consider my form of RPing to be more pure, more dedicated. Others may disagree, and I can both understand and accept that. Let's just agree to disagree on this one, because I've a feeling that we could go on forever without progress, heheh.

[Brakogar]

Why do you feel RP should fit a certain type of mold? Why are people in this thread implying that there are acceptible norms of RP and others are unacceptible?


To me all RP styles are fine as long as they dont purposely ruin the fun of others and 'halt' the RP rather than progress it.

I am in agreement with Grisch, the most involving and fun stories are when everyone in the group is taking the ooc enjoyment of others into account; even if the event takes a different turn. Simply showing up to gank up the place putting a halt to the RP is no fun at all, specialy since we can do very little to stop it because of game mechanics.


Lastly another question, since when do you have the right to judge if someone is a benefit or determent to the RP community, just because you don't agree with the "type" of RP that played out?

Judging is something that no one can do is this realm but we do have every right to express our oppinions even if they are judgemental.

Again I am in favour of RP type diversity as long as the ooc mind of the 'role player' is in the right place; as in roleplaying for the sake of fun not for the sake of been an ass.


Just a general comment to all. If you can even consider any Rper's desire to RP as grief - pack up your bags now. The simple idea that you can judge RP to be grief is well idiotic.

The RP desire is not in question but the motivation behind certain characters are. I am speaking generaly now, but someone who uses the RP as an excuse to grief and ruining the fun of others is utterly unacceptable in my oppinion.

[Keraph]

I completely agree with you Brak, but keep in mind that what is 'fun' is different between people. I also agree that people who intentionally ruin events and hide behind RP as an excuse (See: Pinnacle) are scum, but I've learned that there's a thin line between that and what I've been defending, so I can understand why there'd by some assumption that the two were the same.