Rant O' the day.

[Delphius]

PUGing with Raiders.

Dear Raiding Guilds,

Yes, you have downed so and so. Yes, you have such and such on Farm Status. Congratulations. Its an accomplishment and this post is in now way meant to detract from that. You have worked hard and deserve every epic thats dropped for you.

However, PUGing with you can be an exersize in torture. I'm not talking about filling your random raid spot with a non-guildie. I'm talking about being in 5 mans where 4 of the members are from <Raiding Guild X> and 1 of us (me) is not. You see, you've played together, learned team work, have developed a system of doing things. Most importantly you've learned where each other is lacking. Lets face it, a lot of players are not, how should I put this...as profficient in thier class as one would hope. Guilds that have been raiding together for any period of time have learned where thier fellow guild members are lacking and have (conciously or subconciously) adjusted and compensated for thier weakness.

Thats great! Thats teamwork! On the other hand don't expect the random outsider to automatically understand or accept what you've come to percieve as the Status Quo. This outsider you just picked up for a 5 man may indeed think your Tank holds agro like a greased pig, or that your Healer couldn't keep a house plant alive, or that your CC has the timing of a drugged sloth.

What I'm trying to say here is that its ok to pat yourselves on the back for reaching the upper echelons (oh god I just said echelon) of PvE content, but take a step back. Take a good look at yourselves. You may just not have the greatest tank, healer, dps, or CC there is. In fact, they may even suck. Thats ok. Just don't expect someone not in your guild to think they are they greatest either.

[Fynne]

I don't... I don't understand what's being said here, exactly? It's a frustrating experience to be the fifth member of an otherwise four-man high-end guild group, when one (or several) of those four aren't meeting the bar, speaking in terms of competence, for the pedestal that they've placed themselves on?

Or is the frustrating part when, in the face of that, the guild group expects you to continue spouting their excellence?

Generally, people aren't very happy about having people tell them that they suck; that isn't to say that it doesn't happen -- it's just that to 'get away with it', or come out the other side without frustration or hostility, the people usually know each other. Two friends, long-time guildies, etc. come together and go, "Hey, you know Fynne, you're really slipping these days. I don't think improved distract is the way to go for top DPS." It's a completely different matter when it's a comparative stranger. I've had someone come up to me in the middle of Shattrath, inspect my gear, and then tell me in great and unsolicited detail how to play my class. Chalk one more up to the ignore list.

I'm sure that this only gets compounded when the person in question is in the company of three of his guildmates; who is this stranger that has the gall to start bashing one of my guildies that he barely knows? From there, the clique mentality sets in, and it becomes an us-vs-them (or us-vs-him) battle where all sorts of irrelevant facts come in, such as how so-and-so knows more because he's got more epics, or so-and-so's opinion is irrelevant because he hasn't defeated Joe McEndboss.

Is that a fair appraisal of the issue, or did I miss something along the way?

[Delphius]

I apologize for being vague. The point I was trying to make was that a clique mentality can set in and make it very hard for that 5th member to do his/her job.

For example, it may be true that your guilds priest has healed your tank through impossible odds, but you may have forgotten that he is down right rotten at healing multiple targets.

A lot of times when we group together we get to know what each others strenghts and weaknesses are, and tend to forget about the weaknesses. Then when an outsider comes along and is having trouble doing thier job because they expect something from a party member that the rest of the group has given up on long ago, it can get frustrating. If the 5th member mentions it, it can get down right ugly.

In other words, if your guild has Black Temple on farm status, but some outsider your PUGing with mentions that they need the tank to hold a bit more agro, hold off on the "Learn 2 play" comments for a bit before ripping into the new guy.

[Grev]

For example, it may be true that your guilds priest has healed your tank through impossible odds, but you may have forgotten that he is down right rotten at healing multiple targets.
If the tank is doing his job and the DPS is doing their job there should be no reason for the priest to be expected to heal multiple targets unless you're dealing with AoE damage. Even in that case I'd expect the melee DPS to step back and bandage.

[Fynne]

Oh-h, I gotcha now. That's exactly what it's like when I get brought along anywhere without Jilli (or a Paladin at all, really) - without Salv, I am god awful at managing my aggro, and usually Jilli will know that and (other than giving me salv) be on the ball about switching heals over to me as soon as I inevitably begin rogue-tanking whatever it is we're fighting. Without her, I'll usually end up throwing some sort of emo fit and screaming about the healer's (or tank's) incompetence.

Even on a smaller scale, all the Paladins I'm used to working with know that I prefer Salv, Might, Kings in that order, and so when I work with some non-guildie Paladin and I get the ubiquitous Kings, there's that awkward "look, pal" conversation that's going to come up.

And, truth be told, (and entirely due to the strength-in-numbers clique mentality) if it's a situation where it's four of my guildies and one new guy, my dickishness is going to go up exponentially in educating them to my quirks.

[Delphius]

If the tank is doing his job and the DPS is doing their job there should be no reason for the priest to be expected to heal multiple targets unless you're dealing with AoE damage. Even in that case I'd expect the melee DPS to step back and bandage.

Yes. Please don't over analyze random examples. They are random examples ;)

[Malorii]

I understood it all :D

[Mortica]

In other words, if your guild has Black Temple on farm status, but some outsider your PUGing with mentions that they need the tank to hold a bit more agro, hold off on the "Learn 2 play" comments for a bit before ripping into the new guy.

So what you are saying is, you are the be-all-know all, and it's OK for you to tell someone L2Play, but it's not ok for them to return the favor?

Glass houses, and all that.

[Swerto]

I think the point is this


Raiding guilds get too worked up on instances... case and point... they need to learn to deal with people who don't raid regularly or just not raid with people they don't have a set system with...

[Sanrin]

Honestly theres a huge difference between when i raid and when I five man...five manning im more or less ok with fucking around. Ill play the 'i can only heal with holy shock' game in pugs, lay on hands sometimes if i notice the tank isnt taking too much damage but i dont wanna constantly keep him up, and even occasionally bop the tank to watch someone i hate die cuz i know they have more threat. Its like my chance to play god, only amongst my friends and sometimes a pug. I do it rarely, but when i do it its always a good time, even for the parties involved (i try to go with people who i know have a sense of humor and dont mind losing a bit of time)

Long story short: If a group is treating you like shit, leave. Somehow, on some fundamental level their guild and players are doing something greater then you...and perhaps by the order of the universe that means they're justified in calling you a nub? Who knows, but you always have the option to leave. Think about how many guilds carry scrub players. Echelon (your dreaded word) is a fantastic example. Six amazing players, everyone else was just along for the ride. But they progressed in many ways, failed in quite a few others. In every case they talked shit. But they could always be ignored.

Dont let it get to you.


...scrub.

[Grev]

Yes. Please don't over analyze random examples. They are random examples ;)
It was a bad example.

[Kovan]

I .. know -exactly- what you are saying. I ran up against this the other night. and all I have to say is this..

How.. for the love of all HOW can you be wearing tier 5, and not have figured out that even in non-heroic shattered halls , on the finall boss , the cloth-wearers should spread out so as not to eat 3 cleaves in a 5 second timeframe? Better yet, When you've wiped for the 4rd time to clothie deaths, and your tank politely requests yet AGAIN. that you perhaps NOT STAND NEXT TO THE HEALER.
That you tell him "STFU nub we R 1337. "

. . . .


/wrists /alt-F4

[Delphius]

Grev- It wasn't a bad example. There are lots of fights where the healer had better be good at healing multiple targets. Trust me, as a paladin I have felt the cold harsh reality of not having an AoE heal. Bandages help, but are rarely enough. This wasn't an example of what prompted my post though. I felt making something up was better than using the truth, which might in some way point the finger at players or guilds, and thats not cool.

Kovan- *hug* I'm glad someone else has felt my pain. What you mentioned was exactly the kind of thing that made me write this. Thank you for your example.

[Delphius]

So what you are saying is, you are the be-all-know all, and it's OK for you to tell someone L2Play, but it's not ok for them to return the favor?

Glass houses, and all that.

No thats not what I'm saying, please go back and read again. Thank you.