Creationism VS Evolution

[maurdakar]

No its not that.

I was thinking, the Alliance races are all titan origin (excluding the nelfs) but all the horde races are naturally evolved (excluding the orcs who probably evolved on their own planet).

So in a way. This is the Creations of the titans VS the naturally occuring species. Thoughts?

[Testosticor]

Well, excluding Draenai as well, but who cares about them?

For the most part, it seems like that's what it is.

[Swerto]

Humans evolved, as did dwarves and gnomes. Remember, they may have been 'created' as Earthen, Vrykul, and Mechagnomes, but they had to evolve from that point.

[Testosticor]

Humans evolved, as did dwarves and gnomes. Remember, they may have been 'created' as Earthen, Vrykul, and Mechagnomes, but they had to evolve from that point.

His point is that, to what we know, Taurens, Trolls, Orcs, Blood Elves, and Goblins weren't directly created by Titans at one point. They merely evolved from the primordial ooze.
Hell, Tauren are even around in the Sundering, when Dwarves were still Earthen.

[Swerto]

I know his point, just this is a Fantasy world. Fantasy tends to have creation myths surrounding it that are presented as facts within their world.

[Testosticor]

Yes they do.
Are the created species and evolved species grouped up and warring against each other most of the time, though?

[Underwaterbear]

There are conflicting reports about this.

Nah b, Tauren participated in the War of the Ancients, which resulted in the sundering. Though they didn't participate in the initial timeline, when Krausus and lolRhonin travel through time, they recruit the Tauren to help fight off the burning legion.

Time travel and diff timelines. I know right. Knaak such a lovely writer.

[maurdakar]

Im sayin the ultimate celestial or dare I say it, devine origins of each faction varies. It could be an interesting point of contention in the future, mabey even establish that the Draenei are titan made, cause they (and the elves) are still a- ?

[Zultingo]

Well let's just break it down
Horde:
Orcs: aliens from another dimension, presumably evolved from indigenous species of mammals.
Trolls: the first evolved and "civilized" race, had a working civilization before the rest and begot the night elves which further begot the high elves.
Tauren: Also evolved, possibly around the same time as the trolls, but due to the tauren not keeping written records, much has been distorted and lost to time.
Forsaken: Used to be humans, see below.
Blood Elves: see Trolls, above.
Goblins: Possibly a creation of the old gods to match up against Titanic creations, but didn't have a modicum of intelligence and were kept as slaves until the discovery of kajamite.

Alliance:
Humans: Evolved from monkeys, duh
Dwarves: Evolved from Earthen
Gnomes: evolved from Mechagnomes
Night Elves: see trolls, above
Draenei: Well, they're intergalactic, spelljammer-having, space-travelling, whoknows what. I'm gonna chalk their origin up to being lost in time.
Worgen: Used to be humans, see above

[Thalevia]

Well let's just break it down
Alliance:
Humans: Evolved from monkeys, duh


Actually if you do the alliance side northrend stuff, they tell you humans were descended from mutated vrykul. They were vrykul children born weak and ugly and hidden after the king ordered them killed.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Night Elves: see trolls, above
According to Blizzard, Night Elf point is still in dispute. Until they come out with a definitive answer, we can't say one way or the other.


Humans: Evolved from monkeys, duh
Vykrul.


tauren not keeping written records
FRAUD! FRAUD! FRAUD!
*Enron sirens begin to wail*

[Necroxis]

The second I read Zultingo's post, I knew Aleria would say that.

I'm fairly positive we've had this exact conversation before. Or if not exact, then extremely similar.

[Ansha]

The second I read Zultingo's post, I knew Aleria would say that.

I'm fairly positive we've had this exact conversation before. Or if not exact, then extremely similar.

If he didn't, I would've.

[Jeedup]

Lets not go down that route again, cause I'll shut that up in a heartbeat.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

The second I read Zultingo's post, I knew Aleria would say that.

I'm fairly positive we've had this exact conversation before. Or if not exact, then extremely similar.

I'm pretty sure we have, and so to close on that particular point.

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/story/trolls/trollsandnightelves.html


Little is known about the night elves' precise origins, for their race was formed so long ago that no hard evidence has surfaced to prove or invalidate this theory. ... Without additional data, there is little point in debating the merits of this controversial theory. No doubt it will remain a matter of contention for years to come.

My personal belief? Probably Amani trolls, but without facts, no one knows.

[Zultingo]

Yeah, I'm not gonna sit and pretend like it isn't a topic that we've run into the ground more than anything, but, it's not like anybody else has really proffered any other ideas, and even though people in authority have said it's not even worth arguing about, blizzard put it on their page as a speculative point anyway, so I'm stickin' to it.

Also, those Tauren probably are committing fraud, they seem like white-collar crime is the kinda thing they'd be super into.


Actually if you do the alliance side northrend stuff, they tell you humans were descended from mutated vrykul. They were vrykul children born weak and ugly and hidden after the king ordered them killed.

Yeah, I know, I'm just being a shithead.

[Jeedup]

*my only addition to the Troll topic*

Aleria, all the 'tribes' and sub-species of troll are still all of one species: Troll. They split into their respective regions and developed unique characteristics over time. Saying one tribe made them, still says the race itself made them, using the troll to night elf evolution theory.

*end*

Keep it on topic and avoid constantly rehashing a discussion that people can't seem to take as a discussion, and turn it into an argument about who's right and who's wrong.

[Aldumraan]

*my only addition to the Troll topic*

Aleria, all the 'tribes' and sub-species of troll are still all of one species: Troll. They split into their respective regions and developed unique characteristics over time. Saying one tribe made them, still says the race itself made them, using the troll to night elf evolution theory.

*end*

Keep it on topic and avoid constantly rehashing a discussion that people can't seem to take as a discussion, and turn it into an argument about who's right and who's wrong.

Yay, good moderation.And about the troll thing, just saying this because I was thinking about elf lore recently, if Night Elves DID stem from trolls(which is a debatable subject on which we have no confirmation from an official source), that also means High Elves and Blood Elves did, since the elf-race only divided itself after the War of the Ancients. And on that note, if Kaldorei, Queldorei, and Sindorei(three major races) all came from trolls, it just gives more impact to the fact that trolls are awesome. Because Elves are awesome, and if they descended from trolls, which are already awesome, then trolls are double(quadrupal if you count each individual race) awesome. And in regards to the OP,Maurdakar has a point here. Interesting topic.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Aleria, all the 'tribes' and sub-species of troll are still all of one species: Troll. They split into their respective regions and developed unique characteristics over time. Saying one tribe made them, still says the race itself made them, using the troll to night elf evolution theory.

Um, Jeedup, I am capable of saying "We can't say one way or the other whether Night Elves evolved from trolls" and "But I personally believe that the Night Elves probably came from a particular tribe of trolls" in the same sentence. I'm not sure what here indicated that I believed that Amanis were somehow not trolls.

[Derathenus]

I actually read somewhere that the curse of flesh, in which the original seed races(Earthen, Mechagnomes, Tol Vyr etc) became their flesh descendants was originally a natural process the titans created that was later co-opted by the Old Gods for their own sinister purposes(assimilation according to the event in Halls of Stone). So basically you could call the origins of life on Azeroth Intelligent Design.

[Jeedup]

Um, Jeedup, I am capable of saying "We can't say one way or the other whether Night Elves evolved from trolls" and "But I personally believe that the Night Elves probably came from a particular tribe of trolls" in the same sentence. I'm not sure what here indicated that I believed that Amanis were somehow not trolls.

You're wording was poorly done if that was your intent, which is what I mentioned. You just blurted out Amani trolls, as just a theory (which is fine). You're over emphasising what I said, and going through it with a different context. I already knew you may not find the theory of the Troll-Night Elf evolution to be legitimate, and I never mentioned that part, so again, you went a completely different route all togther.

In the end, they're still, just Trolls.

Again, going with the theory (again, never said you agreed or even disagreed with it), if Night Elves evolved from Trolls, and specifically Amani (though, more correct to say Forest Trolls, not their political group), its really unclear if they were ever in the areas where Night Elves are now currently, or if thats an area their ancestors migrated too. Every bit of information I've been able to find is that Forest trolls where mainly in the area of northern Eastern Kingdoms, even pre-Sundering. Since there is little evidence of Forest Troll settlements in northern Kalimdor (Shatterspear are jungle trolls), I'm not sure if that theory flys. Though, looking at what Night Elves are now, and Forest trolls, not a far stretch of a theory.

The interesting theory is, at what point did this genetic break off occur, and were trolls still one singular form of evolution, or had already started doing their sub-species branch off. An interesting discussion and theory for another time, and more importantly another thread.

[Derathenus]

There is one group of trolls that are basically forgotten, and that is the Dark Trolls. I'd say if the Night Elves DID evolve from trolls somehow, it was from the mysterious Dark Trolls.

But on topic I would say the Titans had a guided evolution in mind. Maybe they created the various seed races as well as allowed some to appear "naturally" on Azeroth with specific end forms in mind. Look at the crystal sculptures in places like Halls of Lightning or Vault of Archavon for examples. Basicly the Titans could have foreseen the eventual forms their creations(whether starting as seed races or animals the titans allowed to exist on azeroth) would take.

All interesting theories regardless.

[Rethius]

GOD DID IT. NOTHING EVOLVED.


I AM NOT A VRYKUL.

[Necroxis]

Where did you read that at? Because pretty much all the sources state that it's Old God derived as to undermine the Titan's plans by corrupting their own creations.

[Derathenus]

I believe it was a "know your lore" article at wow insider. I thought that, although probably not correct, it was an interesting theory and worth discussing here.

[Phelix]

Little of Column A little of column B

Seems to be a mix of both

[Necroxis]

I believe it was a "know your lore" article at wow insider. I thought that, although probably not correct, it was an interesting theory and worth discussing here.

Some of their lore articles are "Tin foil hat" editions where they make connections where there aren't any sources to back them up.

Pretty much all of the sources, like the faces from Halls of Stone/Ulduar/Uldum all state that it was an Old God machination to corrupt the Titan's races to turn them against each other and against their creators.

[Derathenus]

Some of their lore articles are "Tin foil hat" editions where they make connections where there aren't any sources to back them up.

Pretty much all of the sources, like the faces from Halls of Stone/Ulduar/Uldum all state that it was an Old God machination to corrupt the Titan's races to turn them against each other and against their creators.

That certainly seemed to be evidant at Ulduar with the Earthen fighting the Iron Dwarves. I was under the impression though that when in Halls of Stone they said "Assimilation" that ment the eventual goal was to turn all the titan's creations into faceless ones down the road.

[maurdakar]

I first thought of this (the differing origins I mean) when I heard of PATH OF THE TITANS, something you all remember was cancelled. It was going to harmonize the three branches of playstyle Tanking/DPS/Heals and give the BLIZZ team more levers and switches to push and prod at, specifically dails created to operate the core trinity.

I thought to myself: "Wait, why do the aliens and races who are NOT children of the titans get to play?" For lore reasons obviously.
WoW is an interesting mashup of science and magic, and delicous, magical science. So the two origins; -evolution- albeit evolution altered through natural enviornment (magic being part of a natural enviornment in WoW), and -creationism- where the roots of these species is from being crafted from metal and magic.

Ya sure, a wizard did it. Nevertheless it's an interesting juxtaposition between the two factions, one side being crafted by the gods, the other side, as ancient, but having been carved out their place in the world. If the titans return how do you think they would view the confusing mess that has become Azeroth? Keep in mind as callous as their mechanical creations are about keeping order, the titans are -good- in their own way.

[Swerto]

Lawful Good can do some pretty evil thing in the name of righteousness.

[Derathenus]

I always thought from reading in game lore that the titans are not in fact good, but simply lawful, with a goal of pushing their own vision of law and harmony on the entire universe, even if there happens to be intelligent life on a planet they seek to order.

I'm not going to quote Algalon, instead I give you all this quote from "Aman" during the pre-cataclysm quest "The Titans' Terminal":

Who hath summoned forth Aman?
Ah, I see you toil with relics of the past.
Be warned that even your creators are fallible.
Digging too deep into your past might bring an abrupt end to your future.

[maurdakar]

Ya I suppose they could be considered lawful neutral. We know they are capeable of loving one another, sparing species which are non destructive and that they feel sorrow and despair when faced with the horrors of the Burning Legion.

[Derathenus]

I believe the Titans have a conscious but I believe it was said in the orginal WC3 manual which interduced them that they were unable to comprehend or think of evil of anykind. I don't believe personally that its possible to understand good without the knowledge of evil.

Sargaras was exposed to massive amounts of evil in his orginal mission to rid the universe of the demonic, and eventually came to think that evil and chaos was the true state of the universe.

Algalon was opposed by much the opposite, and being exposed to good made him question the Titan's mission much like sargaras, only in an opposite manner.

[Necroxis]

Algalon isn't really evil, he's just working under his 'programming' which is "Corruption--->Reorigination" when you stop him he mentions that he's seen many worlds rise and fall, but his defeat at the hands of the mortals of Azeroth is the first time he's noticed the tenacity of the mortals, and if it's possible that the worlds that were re-originated had the same tenacity, but he was too blind to see it. He's pretty much an Elemental programmed with a computer program and when you stop him, you break the programming.

It's going to be interesting to observe the dichotomy when both the Titans and Burning Legion face off (Because I'm convinced that one of the final expansions is going to be the Titans (Or possibly just Eonar defending her creations) vs Sargeras and the Burning Legion), and if we're simply fighting alongside the Titans to stop the Burning Legion, and then the Titans will just turn right around and Re-Originate Azeroth, and we'll end up fighting THEM too.

[Derathenus]

If they do I imagine the battle will end with us not killing the Pantheon but possibly them realizing the error of their ways. If it was the final battle of all of WoW, I'd hope A'dal, Alextraza(and the remaining good aspects), and finally Algalon appear sometime during the battle, fighting alongside us in some way. It would be a surprise and I think a great ending if it happened.