Bots in BGs

[Draekon]

So, lately I've noticed alot of 'bad' players, and then alot of bots. I began to realise that the obvious bots (The guys that just run in a line, autofollow, or loop macros) were just that, and the 'bad players' were just slightly more complex, advanced ones.

For those who still BG, heres a helpful video on how to identify them.

Hopefully, Blizzard will do the right thing and figure out a way to fix this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU6ntX7Dar4

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Wow. o_ O I've had the one follow me around for the BG, but I would have never noticed the other two. That's so strange.

[Ryoku]

Those bots have been around forever.

I have a friend who used to bot his warlock AV while he slept / went to school back in TBC and it would just run around and find people to do a dot rotation on. Got his whole honor set that way.

I don't do it because to me it isn't worth the risk of getting my account banned if I get caught, but otherwise I've never really had much care about it. The honor you get from doing nothing by using them is ridiculous, can't argue with that.

[Izeal]

I don't mind em too much, they're free hks for non bots =D

[Swerto]

I don't mind em too much, they're free hks for non bots =D


That take spots from players who will actually contribute.

Bots are a plague in every form, and anyone who uses them for ANYTHING (farming, grinding, bging, etc.) should be punished.

[Svetlaena]

Agreeing with Swerto on this one.

I notice more of them when I'm doing BGs later at night and I tell you what, as a healer there's very little more annoying in a late-night BG than finding yourself trying to defend a node with two bots latched on to you who will, of course, not help when opposition arrives. They're found ways around the old 'AFK reporting' system and rendered it useless.

It should warrant a full ban, or the loss of all your honor items, or something really harsh. The people that use them want to reap rewards without playing the game, making me question why they installed it at all.

[Skaadvik]

as a healer there's very little more annoying in a late-night BG than finding yourself trying to defend a node with two bots latched on to you who will, of course, not help when opposition arrives.

Oh my god yes. So many times I have found myself healing one and it slowly dawns on me that the warlock I have been healing for the past two minutes HASN'T KILLED ANYTHING.

[Ryoku]

It should warrant a full ban, or the loss of all your honor items, or something really harsh. The people that use them want to reap rewards without playing the game, making me question why they installed it at all.

The punishment for being caught botting depends on the GM. Some GMs will give a warning on the first offense, others will time ban, and some will perma ban. Further offenses will most definitely occur in a perma ban, or at the very least a serious time ban. I mean really, Blizzard cares and does more than most people think.

However, to play devil's advocate, the idea of reaping rewards without playing the game can also translate to working for rewards without playing a game. The words working and playing don't really go hand-in-hand, and World of Warcraft has often been accused on putting too much emphasis on work, and not enough emphasis on play. I can see why players would be drawn to the idea of having a bot grind for them to get the lowest set of gear, as many either don't have the time, or the patience to slam their head against random BGs. Besides, the fact that they can be ground out by a bot, which indefinitely doesn't have the mental capability of a human being (though that statement can be negated by bots performing better than actual players in these BGs), is a pretty good indicator to the degree of pointlessness in that grind.

Again, I am playing devil's advocate. I don't have some great love or support for people who bot, I just see where they are coming from, and can also see where the people who hate them are coming from, but I remain solidly indifferent.

[Sejarki]

Besides, the fact that they can be ground out by a bot, which indefinitely doesn't have the mental capability of a human being (though that statement can be negated by bots performing better than actual players in these BGs), is a pretty good indicator to the degree of pointlessness in that grind

Yet of course the issue is they undermine BGs being played as part of the game, and not as just a grind. I suppose the answer in the end is then simply: do rated BGs with your guild. And yet I can't help but feel bothered by issues that keep me from interacting with new people outside of the ones I already know.

I can't but help favor the view of people who simply want to play the game as a game, and in turn I look down on those who are willing to ruin the experience of others for their own selfish desires, which is the real issue.

[Raynell]

I had a Death By Cupcake guy bot-following me once in Twin Peaks.

[Rand_Shea]

I let bots follow my priest and drag them off cliffs while I levitate. I figure if enough people do that and break the gear these people have, either the bots will have to add in repair runtimes which will deplete the amount of gold they have (even if not by much, it's still something), or make them completely ineffective since they won't have stat buffs from their gear.

but they'll still get honor from even being associated with other people who get kills, so... eh. I dunno. Bots are parasites that will attempt to suck the lifeblood out of anything, like mosquitoes or fleas.

[Vyn]

Heh.

I don't mind bots. Free honor, and WoW has always been grindTASTIC. I've been tempted to bot my characters before, but then I remembered that I'd miss out on the only thing I enjoy, and that being exploring places.

Unless I did a BG bot, in which case AWESOME, I CAN FINALLY PVP WITH THE BIG KIDS.

[Cyrass]

I don't mind bots. Free honor, and WoW has always been grindTASTIC.

While I agree that honor feels a bit too grindy right now, but as for them being free honor - it's more time efficient to win than to get kills. Bots get in the way of winning because they do not participate, they just run around and absorb hits.

[Svetlaena]

Trust me, it's not that I don't sympathize behind the reasons people bot. Earning your honor gear is grindtastic, people in randoms tend to be kind of derpy, and I am sort of sad I have reached 85 on another toon simply because it means I have to do it all over again... having built a mainset and two sets of offset pieces for my main already. *Le sigh.*

The problem I have with bots is that it makes me look less forward to entering the BGs at all. It detracts from the experience of the battleground and can too-easily screw your team over. I'm a firm believer in doing your own thing, but I start to have a problem when you're literally programming your toon to mooch off of the work of others, others who are probably having a horrible time trying to carry your non-reportable ass through the BG and losing in the process. All because someone just didn't think they should be expected to to work for what they want to earn.

I'm sorry, I just don't feel much leniency toward it.

[Skaadvik]

The punishment for being caught botting depends on the GM. Some GMs will give a warning on the first offense, others will time ban, and some will perma ban. Further offenses will most definitely occur in a perma ban, or at the very least a serious time ban. I mean really, Blizzard cares and does more than most people think.

However, to play devil's advocate, the idea of reaping rewards without playing the game can also translate to working for rewards without playing a game. The words working and playing don't really go hand-in-hand, and World of Warcraft has often been accused on putting too much emphasis on work, and not enough emphasis on play. I can see why players would be drawn to the idea of having a bot grind for them to get the lowest set of gear, as many either don't have the time, or the patience to slam their head against random BGs. Besides, the fact that they can be ground out by a bot, which indefinitely doesn't have the mental capability of a human being (though that statement can be negated by bots performing better than actual players in these BGs), is a pretty good indicator to the degree of pointlessness in that grind.

Again, I am playing devil's advocate. I don't have some great love or support for people who bot, I just see where they are coming from, and can also see where the people who hate them are coming from, but I remain solidly indifferent.

as a fellow healer, and a member of the official PG bitchsquad, I highly doubt that you would feel the same after healing bots in BG after BG. I did some randoms yesterday by myself to kill time, and nothing is more infuriating than trying to heal someone who isn't doing fuck-all while you singlehandedly defend a flag and keep three people from shitting down your throat

and then some bot DK followed me to fel reaver in EotS and I was like "Sweet, me and this DK can take out Fel Reaver." NOPE. DK stands there while i get blanket silenced and pooped on.

It makes me FURIOUS MADIATOR.

[Swerto]

Is there a healbot function to remove somebody from your list so you won't heal them anymore?

[Ryoku]

I don't think there is, Swerto. You have to use triage. Ignore the baddie or the bot, focus heals on the superman with t2.

Skaadvik, I have been in your situation, and it is moderately frustrating, but I tend to just recognize them and not heal or count on them. I suppose it doesn't phase me as much because I do not do random BGs for fun. Useless players are just as bad as bots.

[Swerto]

I want to do random BG's for fun, but the ammount of useless players and bots juts makes it un-fun. I've gotten to the point I'll only do BG's with large groups of friends unless I need to grind.

[Vyn]

What if we get to the point where bots are programmed to such a degree that they're nigh indistinguishable from actual players? Where you're losing to them in one-on-one fights, and they react to situations differently?

Will you be good with them then?

[Swerto]

Nope, because it's still cheating.

[Skaadvik]

healbot has a blacklist function

my matronly healing instincts override my ability to ever use it, because I always think "what if healing this guy will mean the difference between winning and losing someday?" because I don't know if it carries over if I see them in a BG again.

[Talarian]

I want to do random BG's for fun, but the ammount of useless players and bots juts makes it un-fun. I've gotten to the point I'll only do BG's with large groups of friends unless I need to grind.

This summarizes how I feel about random BG's. Though to add to it, there is a whole different level of frustration (beyond the bots) as a healer. Random BG's are clusterfucks of disorganization, most of the time, and as a healer it can be monstrously frustrating to be healing people that run about without any semblance of strategy and, oftentimes, a serious lack of PvP talent. When I'm in a pre-made of some sort, or a rated BG, I don't mind losing. I guess its the feeling that "well, that other team was better than us" as opposed to "man, our team is turtling the Warsong flag room when we are down 2 to 0." I much prefer the former.

For what its worth, the inclusion of high-tier PvP gear that can be obtained in rated BG's will certainly make the bot rewards less than they used to be.

On a side note, I find the differences in personal play strategy in a random BG vs. a rated BG to be really interesting. Rated BG's obviously have team strategies that focus on winning as a group, whereas my personal, random BG strategy usually revolves around an idea like "how can play this BG effectively given the liklihood that 50% of my teammates don't understand what's happening here (or are bots)." Usually, I focus on deterrence, in those cases, rather than trying to "win" the game. Little things like letting the opposing team see me go stealth in order to try and frighten them into a few more seconds of waiting before they try to cap a node or take a flag....that sort of thing.

Edit: One of the most hilarious (and effective) random BG strategies I've seen has been during 5-man pre-made's in Warsong Gulch with Elindil. Our 5-man team would exit the flag room and go out the ramp. We'd then wait, as a group, at the bottom of the ramp, where the whole Horde team is headed. As the Horde team would show up, they'd all back off and run around wondering what to do about this group of Allies that were clearly there only to blunt their first flag rush. On average, they'd end up waiting 15-20 seconds before grouping up and charging us and, although we'd get overrun, that was an additional 20 seconds that the PuG'ers in our group had to grab their flag and head back across the field (at which point we'd rez and run directly to him). Not to mention it had everyone in vent laughing every time we did it. Good times.

[Vyn]

healbot has a blacklist function

my matronly healing instincts override my ability to ever use it, because I always think "what if healing this guy will mean the difference between winning and losing someday?" because I don't know if it carries over if I see them in a BG again.

Skaadvik is my girl scout den mother.

[Lurile]

Skaadvik is my mother.

fix't.

I don't sympathize with botters one bit. I think botting should be perma-b&. The game isn't grindy to the point I can't stand to play it, and would be even better if there were NO BOTS! Beyond failing hard and losing BGs for people, bots turn PvP, something that kicks ass, to PvC, something that's dangerously close to Pv....E! I don't want to fight computers. I want to hear screams of anguish halfway across the country. Only then can I sleep well.

[Agnarr]

What if we get to the point where bots are programmed to such a degree that they're nigh indistinguishable from actual players? Where you're losing to them in one-on-one fights, and they react to situations differently?

Will you be good with them then?
I almost lost to an afk paladin once, because he was doing more damage to me with whatever sort of damage reflection they have than I was to him. So I ran away. If that guy was botted I'd have probably been toast.

[Vyn]

I think botting should be perma-b&.

I can't believe you used the ampersand instead of typing out the word.

I still don't see what the big deal is. I mean, the PvP grind to get the bottom-line gear you need sucks ass. Anyone who thinks it's fun to spend 40 hours with a bunch of 'tards in order to be able to play competitively with your friends is obviously insane. Yes, battlegrounds are more fun than PvP. No, it's not SO MUCH FUN that I want to spend a good week doing them so I can finally play with my friends.

I suppose if I had leveled up with my friends at expansion launch, and then got to 85 with them, it'd be fine because we'd get the grind done together, mostly. But if I come in now, I'm going to spend a lot of fucking time NOT playing with my friends, and instead trying to get the gear so I can.

[Sejarki]

I can't believe you used the ampersand instead of typing out the word.

I still don't see what the big deal is. I mean, the PvP grind to get the bottom-line gear you need sucks ass. Anyone who thinks it's fun to spend 40 hours with a bunch of 'tards in order to be able to play competitively with your friends is obviously insane.

Well part of the issue is those who choose to bot are making it that much worse for those who are actually willing to grind it out via BGs or (gasp) want to do the BGs just for fun! I wouldn't mind Blizzard lightening the grind, but I don't think it justifies people ruining the game for those who do want to play it.

No one enjoys losing because their team is 1/3 bots and the enemy team lucked out and has none.

[Swerto]

I can't believe you used the ampersand instead of typing out the word.

I still don't see what the big deal is. I mean, the PvP grind to get the bottom-line gear you need sucks ass. Anyone who thinks it's fun to spend 40 hours with a bunch of 'tards in order to be able to play competitively with your friends is obviously insane. Yes, battlegrounds are more fun than PvP. No, it's not SO MUCH FUN that I want to spend a good week doing them so I can finally play with my friends.

I suppose if I had leveled up with my friends at expansion launch, and then got to 85 with them, it'd be fine because we'd get the grind done together, mostly. But if I come in now, I'm going to spend a lot of fucking time NOT playing with my friends, and instead trying to get the gear so I can.
The big deal is that it is cheating. CHEATING.

I do not cheat, I earn my gear the good old fashioned way, so should everyone else. Blizzard doesn't make it difficult, you don't NEED to cheat. People that do deserve to be punished.

People who use bots deserve nothing less than a suspension and everything they got from bots removed. That means gold, honor, rep, what the fuck ever taken away. They did not earn it, they do not deserve it.

[Raziel]

You guys couldn't cut it in the Warlord grind, sho' 'nuff.

300,000+ Honor/week and required top 3 server ranking weekly just to advance.

[Jeedup]

Maybe they should just make a BG section just for botters.

Those games would never end.

[Vyn]

The big deal is that it is cheating. CHEATING.

I do not cheat, I earn my gear the good old fashioned way, so should everyone else. Blizzard doesn't make it difficult, you don't NEED to cheat. People that do deserve to be punished.

People who use bots deserve nothing less than a suspension and everything they got from bots removed. That means gold, honor, rep, what the fuck ever taken away. They did not earn it, they do not deserve it.

Aww, look at you getting all morally upright over a video game.

Everyone knows what I have to say about this, it no longer bears repeating.


You guys couldn't cut it in the Warlord grind, sho' 'nuff.

300,000+ Honor/week and required top 3 server ranking weekly just to advance.

I enjoyed Battlegrounds much much more back in those days, because everyone didn't have the best gear, and you didn't need it to be competitive. You could squint your eyes a little bit and almost pretend that WoW was a game of skill, and you could do BGs for the fun of it. Now BGs just feel like a grind because that's what they are. It's not 10% of the population having the best gear, it's 80% of the population with the best gear. If you're part of the 20%? You better get used to dying.

[Raziel]

Aww, look at you getting all morally upright over a video game.

It's better to be morally upright than morally dubious, or worse, morally apathetic.

I've been gaming for 24 years. I follow 3 simple rules.

Play Fair
Don't exploit mechanics or flaws in the system
Play by the rules

[Talarian]

There is (yet another) bot thread going around the Warcraft Community forums, too: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1965995408?page=1.

I had an off-the-cuff suggestion there and I wonder what the TNG community thinks of it:

I look at bots in the same way that I look at marijuana (and I hope you'll forgive my analogy, here): so long as marijuana is illegal, someone, somewhere, is going to find a way to grow and/or smuggle it because there is a market for it. With alcohol, the U.S. government learned that the easiest way to reduce crime was simply to re-legalize it and take away the incentive for a black market.

How is botting any different? Each time Blizzard finds a way to shut one sort of bot down, a new one crops up, and why not? Its profitable. Thus, I think maybe the cure is not to find ways to ban bots, but rather to find ways to make them unprofitable. The way to do this, in my eyes, is to revalue how honor is distributed in a random battleground.

What I would suggest is putting honor rewards in any given BG on a "curve" like you have in some academic systems. The top DPS'er is doing 2 million damage? Then he is at the top of the DPS component of honor scoring and all DPS honor rewards (I know that's only one part of the equation) are run from that number. Your bot did 1967 DPS, total? You get zero points awarded in the DPS section of honor rewards. You'd have this for every category that Blizzard scores, then, and the totals would come out to the honor you get in any battleground.

In fairness, I have no idea how honor is actually scored and awarded in BG's (I've long sought this information, to no avail), so perhaps something like this is actually quite difficult to implement, but there has to be some dis-incentive applied to players that don't contribute within the average range of the players participating in the battleground. I've definitely seen "bad" bots that provide a tallied "0" in DPS and "0" in healing that still earn average honor in the BG, and this is just the sort of incentive that botters need to keep finding ways around the "Report AFK" system. Take away this incentive - make it so that marginal or non-contributors are awarded scaled honor, going as low as ZERO honor if they do absolutely nothing - and I think a significant step towards eliminating bots will have been achieved.

[Raziel]

Advanced AI will make that curve moot because of their pathing mechanisms combined with the macro-ability sequence.

[Agnarr]

They just need to make the game hard, so bots won't be smart enough to handle it.

[Vyn]

It's better to be morally upright than morally dubious, or worse, morally apathetic.


Why?

wordswordswords

[Svetlaena]

It's better to be morally upright than morally dubious, or worse, morally apathetic. Why?

Because then you can live with a clear conscience and nothing to hide. Oh, and you know, no fear of getting your account banned.

On the flip side of things, why isn't "cheating is bad" good enough reason? Besides that, why isn't "it makes the game less enjoyable for those who want to legitimately play it" good enough reason as well?

[Vyn]

Cheating is bad isn't a good enough reason because "cheating is good" isn't a good enough reason. Aside from that, it's an opinion.

There are plenty of things that make the game less enjoyable for people. Let me list a few:
Ragers. You know, the guys who throw out ten "fucks" every time they get killed because the healers weren't healing them.
Elitist assholes.
Bad players.
Stubborn bad players.
Defeatist players.
Those guys that refuse to defend (which could arguably be under bad players, but they're like a special brand of baddies).

Why does this one thing draw so much ire? I've seen more defeatist players than I've seen bots (yes, I'm an altaholic, but I PvP'd at max level during Wrath). I've probably seen more blogs and drama about defeatist players than I've seen about bots, too. Does it really scrape your morals so badly?

If you're really upset about the cheating aspect of it, then would your views on bots radically shift if Blizzard announced that they were going to offer bots for characters who don't want to do regular BGs?

[Svetlaena]

The problem is, that the bots only compound the issues that battlegrounds already have with things like this, and what you're trying to tell me is it's okay to take that defeatism to the next level and not work for your honor at all cause 'you'll probably lose anyway'. That doesn't sit right with me, because just having a bad attitude doesn't break the rules-- but botting does. It's not so much a 'moral' conundrum as following the rules of the game versus breaking them.

It's cheating. Whining and intentionally playing badly is not cheating, even though it's condemnable in its own right, but it's not an active problem that something can possibly be done to help eliminate. Bot programs are, yes, tricky to pin down, but something actually (theoretically) can be done to stop them.


If you're really upset about the cheating aspect of it, then would your views on bots radically shift if Blizzard announced that they were going to offer bots for characters who don't want to do regular BGs?

I don't see them ever, ever, ever, ever doing anything like this. But let's pretend for a moment they have. My reaction is an upset one. I don't understand the purpose of making a game and then offering players ways to reap rewards without doing any of the necessary work. "Welcome to the game, here have free epics while you wait."

Call me old-fashioned but I enjoy earning my rewards legitimately because not only are those the rules, but it makes earning them feel like an accomplishment. Even if it is just an accomplishment of having the tenacity to stick it out that long even through the ups and downs that are random BGs.

[Vyn]

I don't see them ever, ever, ever, ever doing anything like this. But let's pretend for a moment they have. My reaction is an upset one. I don't understand the purpose of making a game and then offering players ways to reap rewards without doing any of the necessary work. "Welcome to the game, here have free epics while you wait."

Call me old-fashioned but I enjoy earning my rewards legitimately because not only are those the rules, but it makes earning them feel like an accomplishment. Even if it is just an accomplishment of having the tenacity to stick it out that long even through the ups and downs that are random BGs.

I feel like this regardless because I've played since vanilla. KIDS THESE DAYS WITH THEIR HEIRLOOM ITEMS. BACK IN MYYYY DAAAAAY...

The problem is that the grind is not fun. I play the game to have fun, and if there's something that can get me to the fun bits faster, then I'm all for it. I missed out on every single PvP, Raiding, or high-level RP incident on this server in Wrath because leveling and grinding was not fun for me. I (mostly) quit WoW because the entire game feels grindy like this.

I loved doing Molten Core and Blackwing Lair on my Paladin and Hunter when I was with my friends. WoW is really really fun to play with a group of friends, or even just one friend. However, to get there, you have to spend a lot more time doing repetitive grindy boring quests or instances or battlegrounds, which aren't fun (the three adjectives I used a moment ago weren't enough). I subscribed so I could play an RPG with a bunch of my friends, not spend 10000 hours doing solo grinds.

To go back to a point you made earlier (when I asked "Why?"), I wouldn't feel any kind of guilt for skipping to the part where I'm playing with my friends, since that's what I'm paying for anyways.

[Svetlaena]

As long as we're clear that I wouldn't feel any kind of guilt for reporting you for botting.

Plus I don't understand the logic of hating heirloom items (which almost feels like cheating sometimes, but isn't) but being okay with botting (is actual cheating). But the logic of being okay with botting at all is, I will admit, very much beyond my way of thinking. It's like walking away from a friendly game of chess and having a computer take your place, and then thinking it's okay to walk away with its chess championship trophy. There's nothing wrong with playing against computers, mind you that's what PvE is for, as long as you weren't specifically doing something where you're supposed to be playing against other actual people. And oh yea, it breaks the rules.

And the solution to your problem is simple: do the grind with friends. Either way I'm done with this thread, cause I've pretty much said everything I can feasibly say without repeating myself too much. :P

[Atlarian]

I do not cheat, I earn my gear the good old fashioned way, so should everyone else. Blizzard doesn't make it difficult, you don't NEED to cheat. People that do deserve to be punished.

Like Tol Barad's 1800 honour, right?

[Sejarki]

To go back to a point you made earlier (when I asked "Why?"), I wouldn't feel any kind of guilt for skipping to the part where I'm playing with my friends, since that's what I'm paying for anyways.

Would you feel bad for the fact you were taking away from the experience of other players? What if one of your friends was in that BG playing for fun (or helping to gear a third friend) while you were botting and thus not contributing?

I really don't like the cheating is wrong argument, since it's far too ambiguous and "cheating" is relative. Botting is wrong in the same way that running a raid and snatching (ninja-ing) a piece of loot is wrong. Playing this game is a social experience one way or another, and you shouldn't contribute to the issue of people being jerks. Grinding is more or less a part of WoW (and the MMO genre) and if you really don't have the time anymore then don't do it, there are other activities within the game, and there are other games out there too that require NO grind. I don't think "I don't like the design of this game" justifies botting though, it just makes me wonder why you're playing at all (which botters aren't, evidently).

More importantly if you bot I'm totally never going to be your bestest friend.

[Vyn]

I should probably clarify that I don't actually bot, however, I also don't care that other people do.

While I would be sad (actually, I wouldn't really) that I made my friend's play experience less enjoyable, I wouldn't blame them at all for reporting me. I know bots aren't "right" and that it is cheating, so you're well within your rights to report me, were I to use a bot. Of course, I'd go for the sneaky bot that runs a set path and pretends like it's an actual player, so as to lessen my chances of getting reported, and because they tend to contribute to the team more than a bot that casts renew on itself all the time.

[Swerto]

Like Tol Barad's 1800 honour, right?


Do I need to lift my quotes from that thread? I was against exploiting that retarded change.

Exploiting is still cheating.

[Jeedup]

While an interesting topic, I think people are over inflating the problem of bots in BGs. Sure, its 'cheating' in an MMO, but it seriously is not compounding issues in BGs already. You could also say bad players, who have every right to play the game, are compounding the issue, because they can be on the same level. Heck, I remember in classic when using complex keybinds was considered cheating by players, or multi-account play bindings (which still seems a hazy area for Blizzard).

[Swerto]

Bad players aren't cheating. Bad players are just bad players. With time they can become good players. They are a necessary part of the random BG experience, and instead of raging at them like a jackass you could, y'know, be helpful. Say the strategy in BG chat and attempt to take charge.

Cheating on the other hand isn't necessary. In any form it is a problem that should be eradicated. Whether it be hacking, exploiting, botting, gold selling/buying, etc. it is a problem that cannot be tolerated in any form or the system will break down. There are games out there where cheating has been ignored, and the games have devolved into cesspools of bullshit where they're not even fun.

You ever play a shooter with aimbotters? How about a racing game with someone who's using a pathing macro to find 'the shortest path' and not actually racing? Ever play a chess game against a player who's actually a really good AI?

I don't play video games to play against things that are outside the rules.

In WoW this means I'm not really farming right now because it's hard to compete with mining bots. I'm not really BGing because it's a bitch to deal with the honor bots on TOP of the afkers, ragers, quitters, baddies, and losing-mindset players. It's not worth my time, it's not fun.

I play video games to have F-U-N.

This bullshit isn't.

[Talarian]

Advanced AI will make that curve moot because of their pathing mechanisms combined with the macro-ability sequence.

I agree that some bots will still fight against this system by posting some sort of numbers via their macro programming, but "moot", I'm not so sure. They'd still be very low on the honor roster unless they were pulling numbers that put them in the average of the BG field, and if a bot is doing that, well, maybe its as good to have that bot on your side as a real player. Sure, a bot healer isn't going to be dispelling curses and doing all the important things that don't show up in the BG boxscore, but I've seen some actual humans that play just as poorly.

Based on my limited understanding of how honor is awarded in a BG, I think a curved, scaling system would, at the very least, make botting less profitable, and that's how you actually reduce its prevalence.

[Raziel]

They just need to make the game hard, so bots won't be smart enough to handle it.

WarCraft is popular and has such a playerbase precisely because it isn't nor has it ever been nor will it ever be hard, or contain even the slightest smidgen of difficulty in any facet.


The problem is that the grind is not fun.

You are playing the wrong game then. If you're not having fun, then stop playing. I stopped having fun in WarCraft, I simply stopped playing WarCraft. I have found tremendous other facets in which stabilize my entertainment quota.
It ain't hard.

Don't let the crabs pull you down.

[Sejarki]

Based on my limited understanding of how honor is awarded in a BG, I think a curved, scaling system would, at the very least, make botting less profitable, and that's how you actually reduce its prevalence.

I honestly agree they should change the honor system in BGs to something more tangible. They (Blizzard) want to do something with dungeons so it shows players the how and why when they fail at a boss in a Heroic for example, why not apply something similar to BGs and PvP? Reward people for playing effectively, and show them what they're doing that is effective. I'm always sad whenever I feel I've actually done a lot to help lead to the teams victory and my honor reward doesn't represent that in the least. And isn't this something FPSes have done for some time? BGs are little more than basic FPS play styles re-purposed into WoW.

Maybe take it another step further: allow the players on a team to vote for an MVP who gets a small bonus award. This idea has a lot of flaws obviously (that I'm sure will be picked apart in posts to follow), but I think there should be some way to reward those who ARE helpful and are trying to take the charge in order to win!

[Skaadvik]

PG does regular 5-man BG groups to help players avoid the solo grind. If you don't want to go it alone, get some friends to queue with you. 5 coordinated people can pretty much carry a BG.

[Vyn]

You are playing the wrong game then. If you're not having fun, then stop playing. I stopped having fun in WarCraft, I simply stopped playing WarCraft. I have found tremendous other facets in which stabilize my entertainment quota.
It ain't hard.

Don't let the crabs pull you down.

I know. I already don't play.

[Talarian]

PG does regular 5-man BG groups to help players avoid the solo grind. If you don't want to go it alone, get some friends to queue with you. 5 coordinated people can pretty much carry a BG.

Indeed: http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?21023-%28A%29-lt-Praetorian-Guard-gt-hosts-a-Call-to-Arms

[Derathenus]

I just thought I'd drop on by and give my own views on this subject, as its been a good read and a good discussion this far and I felt I should add my 2$.

Often I see a lot of comments on WoW related forums(not so much this forum) with posters asking for content to be nerfed or a certain class to be nerfed in PVP. I see many of the arguments those posters use in the same light as botting in a game.

Others have already pointed out the paradox that is botting, and I won't repeat the arguments used. I will say this however. As a player you can demand the game to be lowered to your own level, or you can play and ascend yourself to the game's level, learning whatever it is your lacking and becoming a better player as a result.

I have the second view. Currently Herioc dungeons are very difficult for players used to the effortlessness of wrath heriocs. Many have complained to Blizzard. These people can't or won't let themselves enjoy the game, instead demanding the game be lowered to their current level. If these people only relax and learn the game, they just might find they enjoy the higher difficulty.

As for PVP, gear isn't everything. A good player knows his or her limitations, while a great player will find ways around those limitations. The world isn't over if you don't have the gear.

In any case always enjoy what your doing, or find a way too, and you can't go wrong.

[Talarian]

In WoW this means I'm not really farming right now because it's hard to compete with mining bots.

Although this post has mostly been about PvP bots, those darned farming bots are no cooler. I was thinking about solutions to farming bots - how could the designers make botting unprofitable? - and as I perused The Old Republic website, I realized that Bioware is well on their way to at least solving the farming bot problem:

http://www.swtor.com/info/systems/crew-skills

In short, it seems that players won't be doing much resource gathering in TOR. That role seems mostly reserved for your crew members to fulfill, both when you are playing and when you aren't. It also appears that you'll be able to farm resources yourself, if you choose to do so, and whether or not you can do that much more efficiently than your "built-in bot" crew will probably determine whether or not TOR will also be rife with illegal, gathering bots. The point here, though, is that Bioware is attacking this intelligently: they are working on a system in which farming via bots is not profitable - or at least less profitable - for the botter. That's how you fix this problem.

[Derathenus]

What Blizzard should really do is set up some sort of master control program to monitor the various botting programs out there in the game. Than when this truly intelligent A.I. program discovers a bot, it deletes it, and delivers a weak electric shock to the bot's user.

I guarantee that the problem would disappear then.

[Raziel]

If you write a program to look for a program, writers will write programs to exploit flaws in it's searching parameters.