Website that covers storyline of quests

[Hifazat]

If you do not want quest spoilers from the new Shattering quests do not read below. Specifically after the third paragraph as I discuss Quests in Ashenvale and such.

Basically I enjoy reading the quest lines more than actually doing the quests. The lore is interesting for one and since the shattering there is a lot more going on in game than say quests that are 5 years old.

I was wondering if anybody knew a website which covered the storyline of each zone from a faction perspective? Meaning a website which summarized the quests of a zone and gave a general idea of what that faction is doing in the zone and what tasks players have to complete.

I just started Ashenvale and I am finding the quests intriguing, but its all one sided. If nobody knows of such a website, could someone answer a few questions regarding horde activity in Ashenvale?

1. How did you guys get Silverwind Refuge?
2. The bomb being built in Silverwind by the Goblins - why? Other than it being fun to blow stuff up but whats the logic behind that huge bomb. Any in character reasoning from the horde perspective?
3. Got any quests to kill Night Elf NPCs - Well duh bet you do as we have the same for the horde. Whats the logic given to kill the Night Elves?

[Necroxis]

The reasons are pretty simple. Horde need lumber and Garrosh doesn't give two shits about peace.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

The reasons are pretty simple. Horde need lumber and Garrosh doesn't give two shits about peace.

The Horde needs lumber? You'd better tell that to the Krom'gar incinerators who are torching the forests in the Stonetalon mountains.

... and to the Forsaken, as well as their vast forestlands that they don't seem to be using.

[Swerto]

Aleria.

No.

[Ackley]

Swerto.

Yes. The Forsaken totally do have huge forests, but they hate orcs and it would be a bitch to transport.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Swerto.

Yes. The Forsaken totally do have huge forests, but they hate orcs and it would be a bitch to transport.

Eh, I kind of disagree on the transportation part. In Warcraft three, you could haul two siege engines around with those things, and when you factor in the double-ballooned variants, I don't see why the Horde can't make their lumber problems dissapear in eight to ten business days.

[Jeedup]

What huge forests?

Oh you mean Silverpine and The Plaugelands?

You'd call those forests?

Based on the game models (read that twice, just so you know what I'm talking about), they all look decrepit, and decaying, and in The Plaugelands, they also could be contaminated. And well, termite problems.

And since as mentioned numerous times before, The Forsaken lands aren't FULLY Horde lands, though after Wrathgate, a re-evaluation of the Hordes control of that land may change. But again, that looks like really unhealthy wood.

Like Rethius.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

What huge forests?

Oh you mean Silverpine and The Plaugelands?

You'd call those forests?

Based on the game models (read that twice, just so you know what I'm talking about), they all look decrepit, and decaying, and in The Plaugelands, they also could be contaminated. And well, termite problems.

And since as mentioned numerous times before, The Forsaken lands aren't FULLY Horde lands, though after Wrathgate, a re-evaluation of the Hordes control of that land may change. But again, that looks like really unhealthy wood.

Like Rethius.

Eh, I'm not concerned too much about the health of the wood, so long as the wood is strong, and the two are not the same. In Warcraft 3, you not only could use the blighted wood, in some cases you were forced to use it, and it worked just fine.

The status of the land is a more pertinent problem, but that's where trade comes in. A trade deal with the forsaken would secure the lumber in exchange for manufactured goods, including weapons, and by so doing, improve the economic situation of both countries.

[Jeedup]

Health of the wood DOES matter. In the real world (MIND BOGGLING), if you use already aged wood (dead wood), it will continue to splinter, become weaker after cutting, and could contain micro-organisms and parasites that could continue any rot already started. This would be pointless to use. Healthy, but infected wood, can continue contamination if you're working with other sources as well in your final product (boats, buildings, ect). Why bother if it's already weakened, regardless of large supply?

Either way, it doesn't matter. Horde (Orcs atleast) have found a steady, readily available supply close to their capital.

Plus, the Alliance made them do it anyways.

Not to mention the Night Elves can easily regrow their own, having some of the more knowledgeable Druids and herbalists in Azeroth. Whiners.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Health of the wood DOES matter. In the real world (MIND BOGGLING), if you use already aged wood (dead wood), it will continue to splinter, become weaker after cutting, and could contain micro-organisms and parasites that could continue any rot already started. This would be pointless to use. Healthy, but infected wood, can continue contamination if you're working with other sources as well in your final product (boats, buildings, ect). Why bother if it's already weakened, regardless of large supply?

Like I said, you can use the blighted wood in Warcraft III, and this fact must be reconciled. Blighted wood also may not have the same characteristics of aged or dead wood. I'd also like to see where it is stated that lumber from harvested trees can extend the blight to other sources.


Either way, it doesn't matter. Horde (Orcs atleast) have found a steady, readily available supply close to their capital.

Steadily? Readily available? You completely discount political risk with your analysis, which is a known killer for foreign direct investment. This is true because when you come down to it, no one wants to see their investments go completely up in flames. The overreaching fact that you've missed however, is that Ashenvale is the sovereign territory of the Kal'dorei. You can't claim something that belongs to soemone else as your supply.


Plus, the Alliance made them do it anyways.

If you are discussing Admiral Proudmoore:
No one who knew about what was going on on the Alliance side supported that. He was acting on his own, with no official sanction. I'm sorry, but the Alliance cannot be held responsible for that.

If you are discussing the Night elves' decision to cut off trade:
From an economic perspective, yes, the Night Elves should not have done this, but let us remember also that the Orcs are not entitled to the resources of Ashenvale. Just as if I need to eat, I am not entitled to break into a supermarket, kill the people who come to stop me, and just take what I want.


Not to mention the Night Elves can easily regrow their own, having some of the more knowledgeable Druids and herbalists in Azeroth. Whiners.

In other words: The Night Elves should be slaves to the orcish people because the Orcs want lumber? I'm sorry, but I don't see that as reasonable. The world does not revolve around the Orc, and if the Orc wants what's in Ashenvale, then they should learn to be friends with the Elf.

[Jeedup]

Like I said, you can use the blighted wood in Warcraft III, and this fact must be reconciled. Blighted wood also may not have the same characteristics of aged or dead wood. I'd also like to see where it is stated that lumber from harvested trees can extend the blight to other sources.

And we're not talking about WarCraft 3, where the mechanic was merely: get lumber from a tree. Not the same, at all, from the conversation at hand.
I'll have to look up my woodworking manual on the types of parasites and insects the nestle in infected wood that spreads once cut. Plus, the MASSIVE concern, is its strength. Again, really badly treated wood, is useless outside of just starting a fire. Not alot you can do with it if its just plain bad.



Steadily? Readily available? You completely discount political risk with your analysis, which is a known killer for foreign direct investment. This is true because when you come down to it, no one wants to see their investments go completely up in flames. The overreaching fact that you've missed however, is that Ashenvale is the sovereign territory of the Kal'dorei. You can't claim something that belongs to soemone else as your supply.

And you are completely discounting the races involved, and again, just approaching it as an accountant. Orc's honestly, would just see a massive forest within fast reach, see that their lands were ravaged by the Alliance (see below). Also, Ashenvale is considered, by and large because of Orchish expansion, to be contested. The area completely, is not 100% 'owned' by the Night Elves, and in the sections the Horde currently control (not counting Cataclysm stuff, as I've not seen the sections) are areas the Night Elves weren't near anyways, or avoided completely like the Strand.




If you are discussing Admiral Proudmoore:
No one who knew about what was going on on the Alliance side supported that. He was acting on his own, with no official sanction. I'm sorry, but the Alliance cannot be held responsible for that.

If find this arguement, rather weak. Horde has constantly been accused of either supervising, or authorising, actions taken by rogue elements. At the time, the good Admiral was acting on the behalf of the Alliance (which if I understand historically, didn't include the Night Elves fully at this point, and I believe the Horde were already in Ashenvale at that point), as he was one of the most respected leaders of the Alliance at the time. HOW he was eventually 'dethroned' was by the actions of his daughter, and her group, who were also in the area. Honestly, if she wasn't located so close to Durotar, he would most likely would have just continued, and start The Fourth War.


If you are discussing the Night elves' decision to cut off trade:
From an economic perspective, yes, the Night Elves should not have done this, but let us remember also that the Orcs are not entitled to the resources of Ashenvale. Just as if I need to eat, I am not entitled to break into a supermarket, kill the people who come to stop me, and just take what I want.

Seriously, where is this 'cutting off trade' thing? I have a hard time believing there is much trade between the respective Alliance and Horde elements. From one race group to another (or from one race group to the opposing faction). The lumber operations of Ashenvale have been again, going on for a rather long time, so if there was actual 'legal' trade between the Night Elves and the Horde, that somewhat illegitmates the arguement against lumber operations by the Horde.



In other words: The Night Elves should be slaves to the orcish people because the Orcs want lumber? I'm sorry, but I don't see that as reasonable. The world does not revolve around the Orc, and if the Orc wants what's in Ashenvale, then they should learn to be friends with the Elf.

But you are again, discrediting the races BEHIND the actions, and giving them actions according to your personal accounting background. Which is fine, but most of the time, you're dismissing the flavor of the races. Do you think the Trolls think in such a legal and calculating manner? Very rarely. Orcs are a power of might, but also, one of reason. While Thrall is rather educated, I think (see? My personal view, open to interpretation) is perhaps still abit annoyed with the Night Elves openly attacking the Orcs straight off the bat, when they were in an area they didn't know well. I know thats an arguement drilled down, but again, showed alot of Night Elves xenophobic background.

[Swerto]

NEED MORE LUMBER.

[Necroxis]

It doesn't make it any less readily available if Garrosh doesn't care about slaughtering the Night Elves who inhabit the area. He isn't Thrall, isn't worried about Peace. I don't think "political risk" is a factor when dealing with Garrosh. He doesn't want to make peace, he never has and probably never will.

And Jeedup, there was a trading system going on, which is explained in Cataclysm. It ends after the Wrathgate (I believe, I could be mistaken. It ended at some point, however).

[Jeedup]

Bizarre that, Wrathgate, of all things, would make them close off trade. The fudge were they even trading?
Which again, would really sort of makes the cries about Ashenvale wood issues alittle on the weak side.

[Necroxis]

Lumber for...something.

Dammit, you're gonna make me go upstairs and my Shattering book aren't you!?

[Jeedup]

Yes. Go. Now.

[Necroxis]

I can't find it! :(

[Jeedup]

A FAILURE AS USUAL NECRO!

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Bizarre that, Wrathgate, of all things, would make them close off trade. The fudge were they even trading?
Which again, would really sort of makes the cries about Ashenvale wood issues alittle on the weak side.

I found that rather bizarre (and quite frankly, stupid) as well, but in your response to my last post, I think you're misunderstanding my approach.

Yes, I understand that you can trust the Orcs to be Orcs, but that doesn't absolve them of the blame for this conflict. The Night Elves cut off trade, Garrosh believed that he had to go to war because the Horde needed resources that the Night Elves had, and now his generals are bombing schools and population centers. My argument is that the Horde's justification is weak because there were other options. If not Silverpine, Quel'thalas, if not Quel'thalas, Azshara, if not Azshara, did Garrosh even once consider that it might be a good idea for him to approach the Night Elves about the Twilights after Hamuul was nearly killed? (That actaully, could have been an opportunity for partnership, and a brief explanation of the Horde's committment about never allowing the deployment of the plague again might have defused the entire situation from the start.)

[Necroxis]

/cry!

Aleria: NO HE DIDNT. HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT PEACE. HE NEVER HAS.

ARG! How many times do we have to say the same thing over and over? It may make sense to people looking outside at the situation, but Garrosh never, EVER, gave any inclination he was open to trade. All of those places you listed are much farther away than Ashenvale is, except for Azshara. Which already gets blasted to hell by the Goblins. Plus it gives him the excuse to fight the Alliance. Which he wants. What's not to understand about that?

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

/cry!

Aleria: NO HE DIDNT. HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT PEACE. HE NEVER HAS.

ARG! How many times do we have to say the same thing over and over? It may make sense to people looking outside at the situation, but Garrosh never, EVER, gave any inclination he was open to trade. All of those places you listed are much farther away than Ashenvale is, except for Azshara. Which already gets blasted to hell by the Goblins. Plus it gives him the excuse to fight the Alliance. Which he wants. What's not to understand about that?

As much as I would like to call Garrosh an evil warmonger, there was a recent story on the official website which has become canon. This may just be him rationalizing, but in the story, he is under the impression that the Alliance just won't leave his people alone, and unless he fights them, the Alliance is going to destroy the Horde.

I think the idea is rediculous, but judging by the story, that's what he believes.

[Necroxis]

I think the idea is rediculous, but judging by the story, that's what he believes.

SEE! This! This x9000 This is the point.

Not to mention that his rationalizing the War with the Alliance doesn't really change the point I made anyway.

[Jeedup]

You're are also missing my point, and my approach. Though, picked up atleast some of it.

It doesn't matter if there were other avenues. Quel'thalas and the Forsaken lands, don't come into play based on the timeline. Sure, they can get lumber from their now, and probably might (atleast from Blood Elven lands), but that doesn't really mean they should stop in Ashenvale either. The events during (and then post) Third War, already had an Orcish presence in Ashenvale. Why leave? Yes, territory issues, but originally, they didn't know, and had access to needed resourses. Got attacked, then went stupid (not Grom's finest moment) and killed a demi-god. Now again, they were already established there, no matter how you try and argue it. And didn't expand much further out than where they already were. I've often been confused as to how they got to the Strand, I'm guessing boat, since its mostly just a fishing camp (but now fortified in Cata), and again, in an area that the Night Elves had no pressence in at all, and infact, abandoned ages ago.

It's not about absolving 'blame'. In the terms of Orchish politics, there just isn't any.

I hope you're joking about saying 'schools and living centers', sounds like you're trying to be a CNN news anchor.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

SEE! This! This x9000 This is the point.

Not to mention that his rationalizing the War with the Alliance doesn't really change the point I made anyway.

Erm, yes, I don't disagree with that statement, which is why I made it, I just really disagree with what he believes.

I'm allowed to say that I disagree with what he believes, aren't I?

[Jeedup]

Funny cause, I'm sure Alliance leaders (including the Night Elves), feel the same about the Horde.

[Jeedup]

Erm, yes, I don't disagree with that statement, which is why I made it, I just really disagree with what he believes.

I'm allowed to say that I disagree with what he believes, aren't I?

Well yes, however your statement doesn't make much sense. You agree and disagree that he believes that....

Care to explain?

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Well yes, however your statement doesn't make much sense. You agree and disagree that he believes that....

Care to explain?

I agree that he believes what he believes.

However, I take issue with what he believes.

[Necroxis]

You're free to disagree with whatever you want, I do it all the time (:D), however (Unless I'm mistaken), your argument was that it was stupid of him to fight for the lumber instead of trade for it. And my counter was that he doesn't care about the repercussions of fighting for it. So it's a bit pointless to try and explain why it would be better for him to trade instead of fight when he has no qualms with slaughtering -everything- in his way to get what he wants.

Unlike Thrall (Who is a good candidate for your argument and I wholly agree with you)

[Jeedup]

You guys do know that the Ashenvale lumber STARTED and CONTINUED under Thralls reign? He is all for a positive change and peace, but he's also for not looking weak at the same time.

Aleria, his view of 'Alliance want us dead', is fairly valid, as its vaild for the Alliance side of it as well. The Alliance, as a whole, hasn't given the Horde a chance to be the Horde that Thrall wanted. Interal issues asside, the Alliance pressure of past deads never helped. I think that may be part of why Thrall steps down, a small part anyways. Hell, like we've argued before, the Alliance is still on the Orcs homeland. Thats a REALLY solid reason to have that view point. Garrosh grew up there, and watched his land get picked apart from enemies from home, and enemies from the Portal.

I can completely see and understand that viewpoint. I dont think he means, start The Fourth War, more like, we used the soft approach before, it's time to show the teeth now.

[Necroxis]

To be fair, Thrall didn't know he was sending Grom to invade a foreign group's land to get the lumber. Knowing Thrall, I really doubt that he would still give the same order if he knew the Night Elves were there. Grom might have not cared, but after Thrall JUST told Grom not to attack the Humans in the same mission he gives Grom the order to gather lumber, he probably would have tried to talk to them.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Jeedup has a point though. It continued after the Third War.

I've always chalked this up to the absentee nature of Thrall's leadership, but even so, it shouldn't have been going on. What's made me curious is that the Night Elves still traded with them, which to me can only mean two things:

1) Golden pulled a retcon

or

2) The Night Elves were still trying to give the Horde a chance.

[Jeedup]

I'm aware that the original expansion into Ashenvale was made on zero reconnaissance (I also thought Grom went into Ashenvale basically on his own? I could be missing something), but the point is, he made the eventual decision, to STAY there.

[Jeedup]

Jeedup has a point though. It continued after the Third War.

I've always chalked this up to the absentee nature of Thrall's leadership, but even so, it shouldn't have been going on. What's made me curious is that the Night Elves still traded with them, which to me can only mean two things:

I think you're mistaking Thrall not doing anything about it for absentee. What if he didn't want to do anything about it, and despite the agressive nature of how it started, felt no need to leave the area either, or atleast, stop expanding? I personally doubt the Night elves would 'give the Horde a change', however, I'm open to the intent/possibility. It just seems rather against their nature. While they have a fairly peaceful nature, they are generally xenophobic, and going on how the orcs and night elves first met, might hold grudges based on the old demonic corruption line.

[Necroxis]

No, Thrall tells Grom to "Go south and harvest lumber" or something.

And Golden didn't retcon anything. I'd probably agree with Aleria's assessment about Thrall's absence regarding why they stayed, since Thrall really never (To my knowledge) actually went to the camp, or he didn't care enough about it versus the whole "OH MY GOD THE LEGION IS HERE TO KILL US ALL" part of it. Anyhow, I had it backward: After the Lich King's death, the Horde and Alliance call a truce, and when the Twilight's, under guise of Horde, kill all the druids and almost Runetotem, then is when the trade stops.

Sorry...I can't seem to find my book so I had to google it.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Now, the Xenophobia thing I also take issue with. The Highborne were certainly Xenophobic, but let's recap what the Night Elves have done since we checked on them in Warcraft III

-They attacked the Orcs and the Humans. (This is the only area that I can find that truly defends Xenophobia. Regardless of that however, the Night Elves saw their actions as safeguarding their lands against invaders. They also mistook the Orcs for demons evidenced by Cenarion's shouting in the mission where he dies.
-They allied with the Alliance after the Third War.
-They were trading with the Orcs, even as their presence in Ashenvale continues.
-Night Elves move out into the wider world.

-The Exodar crashes into Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isle, causing death and misery for the Night Elven inhabitants. Regardless, after an apology, the Night Elves fully accept the Draenei as allies, with two ambassadors regularly visiting the Temple of the Moon, and the joint effort at creating a new Draenei settlement in Forest Song.
-The Night Elves land in Quel'thalas, undertaking sabotage against their cousins. (Not a good move, but I don't know if it can be considered Xenophobic, given the circumstances.)

-The Night Elves send forces to Northrend, with a lot of emphasis on the Dragonblight. Alliance ambassadors to both the Dragons and to the Kalu'ak are exclusively Kal'dorei.

-The Night Elves assist the Gilneans in their attempt to defeat the forsaken, sending a considerable amount of military power there to aid a bunch of humans they haven't seen or heard from before. Personal guilt I'm sure has something to do with it, but in addition to the help, they also house the Gilneans in Darnassus, granting them their own district in the city. The Gilnean Quartermaster can also be found in Darnassus.


So I have potentially two counts out of eight, and I can dispute those two quite easily as well. Overall, I think that given the Night Elves' actions, it's very difficult to call them Xenophobic.

Even if you did, however, that's still not an excuse for Hellscream's actions.

[Necroxis]

Regarding the Blood Elf thing: That quest occurs before Thrall inducts them into the Horde. The Night Elves just attack them because they're mean and don't like Arcane magic. So I wouldn't count this one.

And you also nailed the Gilnean one, I wouldn't count it either.

Other than that, carry on.

[Jeedup]

I don't see their xenophobia as an aggressive one, more isolationist. Hell, they've abandoned alot of their own territory as well, which seems even more isolationism.

[Jeedup]

I was also under the assumption that the Draenei islands, were abandoned by the Night Elves, with only a few loners on there. Looked on WoWWiki, and only found mention of decayed ruines, not actual settlements.

Up until the Third War, they were most definetly, xenophobic and isolationist. However, once seeing more 'enlightened' races (based on their arrogant hoity toity WE'RE REALLY OLD view), they most likely saw unless they got involved, they would probably become rather endangered, from ANYONE.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I was also under the assumption that the Draenei islands, were abandoned by the Night Elves, with only a few loners on there. Looked on WoWWiki, and only found mention of decayed ruines, not actual settlements.

Up until the Third War, they were most definetly, xenophobic and isolationist. However, once seeing more 'enlightened' races (based on their arrogant hoity toity WE'RE REALLY OLD view), they most likely saw unless they got involved, they would probably become rather endangered, from ANYONE.

Up until the Third War, I can see that to an extent, but I definitely think that things have changed after the Third War.

[Raziel]

Oooh, it's this thread again.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8146/1278103809645.gif

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I think you're a bit late there, Raziel.

[Raziel]

No I'm not. All the reruns just happened yesterday

[Anthek]

Having actually done the quests, most of the Horde attacks are in retaliation for ambushes and sieges on already established Horde areas, like the Mor'shan Rampart and Splintertree Post, and also the Lumber Camp. It's about keeping those secure, and that's what the bomb is for, developed first in smaller amounts and used on Astranaar, and then leading up to transporting the big one to Stonetalon.

[Raziel]

Other than Torek's Assault (http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:Torek%27s_Assault) which if Quests are anything to be said of how things go, the Silverwings are completely leaderless very early on.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Having actually done the quests, most of the Horde attacks are in retaliation for ambushes and sieges on already established Horde areas, like the Mor'shan Rampart and Splintertree Post, and also the Lumber Camp. It's about keeping those secure, and that's what the bomb is for, developed first in smaller amounts and used on Astranaar, and then leading up to transporting the big one to Stonetalon.

These areas that are already in Ashenvale? Areas that the Night Elves consider sovereign parts of their territory? Areas that have been sovereign parts of their territory for ten-thousand years?

When I read this I see:
"We're justified to invade you further because you attacked our invasion points."

[Necroxis]

I kinda agree with Aleria...

[Zultingo]

The horde merely has been sanctioned by the trolls to reclaim their former empire.

[Anthek]

The Rampart is not in Ashenvale, but on the border in the Barrens.

[Tovann]

I hope you're joking about saying 'schools and living centers', sounds like you're trying to be a CNN news anchor.
Don't mean to interrupt, and I know this was awhile ago, but I believe Aleria meant the Stonetalon quest when, as horde, you fly your balloon bomb into the druid school tree thing. And then Garrosh throws the Warlord that planned it off the bluff. That moment was win.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I had difficulty finding this source, but now that I have it, I am casting further doubt on the first thing you said, Anthek. Your claim as I read it was that the entire Orcish offensive, in Stonetalon Mountains, in Ashenvale, and in Darkshore was solely because the Night Elves laid siege to Splintertree post (something which I thought happened after the initial orcish attacks) and because they attacked the Warsong Lumber camps (again, something which I thought happened after the initial orcish attacks).

http://www.wowhead.com/blog=168144/official-cataclysm-ashenvale-preview

Among other catastrophes, an enormous volcano has erupted in central Ashenvale. As the night elves struggle to deal with the chaos caused by the Cataclysm, the Horde is siezing what it percieves to be a golden opportunity. Garrosh Hellscream's forces are now bearing down on the night elves and have overtaken several key positions that once served as Alliance strongholds.

I think the quote makes it clear that Garrosh drew first blood, Garrosh started the conflict, and now the Horde is responsible for it.

With that, I leave you with another quote, this one from Garrosh Hellscream, which can be found here (http://www.wowpedia.org/Garrosh_Hellscream):


Kalimdor should be home to the orcs, Rehgar. All of Kalimdor!

[Raziel]

I think the quote makes it clear that Garrosh drew first blood, Garrosh started the conflict, and now the Horde is responsible for it.

With that, I leave you with another quote, this one from Garrosh Hellscream, which can be found here (http://www.wowpedia.org/Garrosh_Hellscream):

No, the Night Elves drew first blood when they attacked his father unprovoked. It just hasn't stopped.

The Orcs *should* control Kalimdor, it was them that have defended it, *all of it*, since they arrived. Who lead the Army of Kalimdor's Might to crush the Qiraji when the Night Elves failed?

[Necroxis]

Saurfang lead it but there were pretty much equal amounts of Horde and Alliance in it. I would hardly give credit to only the Horde for stopping the Qiraji because their leader was a Dwarf. By that same logic, then the Wrathgate was wholly an Alliance-only operation because Bolvar seemed to be the leader.

And for someone who seemed to not want to have this conversation again, you're bring up the old argument of: "Well the Night Elves drew first blood" which the connotation of that event is seen differently depending on which side you look at.

[Anthek]

I had difficulty finding this source, but now that I have it, I am casting further doubt on the first thing you said, Anthek. Your claim as I read it was that the entire Orcish offensive, in Stonetalon Mountains, in Ashenvale, and in Darkshore was solely because the Night Elves laid siege to Splintertree post (something which I thought happened after the initial orcish attacks) and because they attacked the Warsong Lumber camps (again, something which I thought happened after the initial orcish attacks).

http://www.wowhead.com/blog=168144/official-cataclysm-ashenvale-preview


I think the quote makes it clear that Garrosh drew first blood, Garrosh started the conflict, and now the Horde is responsible for it.

With that, I leave you with another quote, this one from Garrosh Hellscream, which can be found here (http://www.wowpedia.org/Garrosh_Hellscream):

Like I said, I've actually played through the quest. Initially, the Horde start at the Mor'shan Rampart, in the Northern Barrens, already under attack the Night Elves, and an offensive drive had not yet started.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Like I said, I've actually played through the quest. Initially, the Horde start at the Mor'shan Rampart, in the Northern Barrens, already under attack the Night Elves, and an offensive drive had not yet started.

As I said, the quote, taken from an interview with Blizzard representatives, indicates that the Horde were the ones who moved into Ashenvale, which, when taken with the events of the Shattering, is a blatant violation of the truce. Noting videos I've seen of Horde gameplay through these zones, I've also noticed that when the Horde player arrives at Silverwind Refuge, it has already been taken. Alliance quests also suggest that this attack was a surprise attack that the Night Elves reacted to, not the other way around.

Finally, the Shatterspear Trolls of Northern Darkshore attack the Night Elves seemingly for no reason, but when we kill their leader, set fire to their structures, and rout their attacks, we not only find Orc and Tauren involvement, but a missive on the leader from Garrosh Hellscream itself. This is significant because the quest givers don't even know that the Horde are in Ashenvale. Indeed, every quest giver up until Astraanar seems completely blindsided and unaware of the Horde's offensive, instead you get the feeling that it was a sudden unprovoked blitz.

I just don't see anything that would suggest that Hellscream's sudden attacks on Ashenvale were caused by the Night Elves. Even the rather Hordecentric-sounding Blizzard reps in that interview indicate, without any doubt, that Garrosh attacked first, and the Night Elves now find themselves fighting back against a sudden onslaught. I can see quests that would send you to retaliate for the Night Elves' reactions, but when your faction starts a war, you shouldn't be surprised when the other fights back.

Edit: One more thing, I haven't played through the Horde quests, but let me link them to you, along with their sources:

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=28876

Kadrak at the Mor'shan Rampart to the north is calling for aid.

The rampart rests on the border between the Northern Barrens and Ashenvale. It is the front line in the fight against the Alliance.

We're driving the night elves out of the forest. We'll claim its resources for the Horde!

To get there, take the Gold Road north out of the Crossroads.

Destiny calls!

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=13612

Lok'tar, <race>!

The campaign is finally underway! Soon, all of Ashenvale will be in the grip of the Horde.

As we expected, our offensive is forcing the enemy to test our defenses at every position.

Here at Mor'shan, their assault has been decimated! But as the vice tightens, they will have no choice but to continue to press us here.

Scout the region, <class>. Search for night elf survivors and cut them down before they can regroup for another assault!

[Jeedup]

Shatterspear? Thats an odd tribe to use, except for it's location

Though, I could go the troll-fan route and argue, that once Darkshore could have been their territory, yadda yadda. But that would last for months.

Those quests do sound interesting however.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Shatterspear? Thats an odd tribe to use, except for it's location

Though, I could go the troll-fan route and argue, that once Darkshore could have been their territory, yadda yadda. But that would last for months.

Those quests do sound interesting however.

The quests indicate that the Shatterspear and the Night Elves lived peacefully, and for a while, the Night Elves had no idea why they decided to attack. Then we found that missive and found that it was Garrosh's doing.

[Necroxis]

Yup, the cataclysm opens up their hidden villages and Garrosh conscripts them.

[Jeedup]

Besides. I hear druids taste good.

Hickory smoked!

[Raziel]

You can cook a druid by cooking a druid to cook it.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Besides. I hear druids taste good.

Hickory smoked!

For some reason I thought that at first you were talking about troll druids.

[Anthek]

Finally, the Shatterspear Trolls of Northern Darkshore attack the Night Elves seemingly for no reason, but when we kill their leader, set fire to their structures, and rout their attacks, we not only find Orc and Tauren involvement, but a missive on the leader from Garrosh Hellscream itself. This is significant because the quest givers don't even know that the Horde are in Ashenvale. Indeed, every quest giver up until Astraanar seems completely blindsided and unaware of the Horde's offensive, instead you get the feeling that it was a sudden unprovoked blitz.

I just don't see anything that would suggest that Hellscream's sudden attacks on Ashenvale were caused by the Night Elves. Even the rather Hordecentric-sounding Blizzard reps in that interview indicate, without any doubt, that Garrosh attacked first, and the Night Elves now find themselves fighting back against a sudden onslaught. I can see quests that would send you to retaliate for the Night Elves' reactions, but when your faction starts a war, you shouldn't be surprised when the other fights back.

For Ashenvale specifically, I don't think either faction is "first." It's more of a result of the Shattering, both sides decided to test the defenses of each other, which is what I got for the quests, and, as it may be, the Horde came out on top.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

For Ashenvale specifically, I don't think either faction is "first." It's more of a result of the Shattering, both sides decided to test the defenses of each other, which is what I got for the quests, and, as it may be, the Horde came out on top.

Taken with the information I have presented, which is easily accessible by the links I have included, this statement is blatantly sophistical. To reborrow the statement: "testing the defenses", one of the Horde quests bluntly indicates that Hellscream's offensive is the reason why the Night Elves are testing the Horde's defenses. I have Blizzard representatives quoted as saying that the Horde saw the Night Elves' preoccupation with Ragnaros in Hyjal as a "golden opportunity" to invade. Finally, the Night Elven quests confer a feeling of surprise that the Horde were attacking at all up until you reach Astraanar. I simply don't see any evidence even hinting to the possibility that the Night Elves began their counterattacks until after Hellscream broke the truce.

[Necroxis]

The truce effectively ends when the Twilight's attack the Druid peace meeting and kills everyone except Arch Druid Runetotem.

[Jeedup]

How the heck did that asshole survive....

[Necroxis]

They think he's dead, he gets really beat up, and they bury him alive. He manages to send a message for help through a bird if I'm not mistaken.

[Jeedup]

HAHAHAHA.

'I think he's dead', Malfurion kicks Runetotem in the side, the beaten druid then grumbles.
'Yup, dead. Finally too. Asshole called me fat once', mutters Tyrande.

[Necroxis]

Uh...yes...? I cannot tell if you're joking or not.

The people who kill them are Twilight Cultists dressed as Horde.

[Jeedup]

You seriously need a humor enema if you didn't get that. NO ONE LIKES RUNETOTEM!

[Necroxis]

He's pretty badass in the books... :(

[Ignas]

You seriously need a humor enema if you didn't get that. NO ONE LIKES RUNETOTEM!

You're not confusing Hamuul Runetotem with Fandral Staghelm, are you? I've gotten the impression that Runetotem is pretty cool while Staghelm is the jerk.

[Jeedup]

...I actually good be. Its been ages since I played any Night Elf characters, and recall him being a serious prick.

[Necroxis]

Yeah, it's Fandral that everyone hates, not Runetotem.

FAIL JEEDUP

FAIL HARD.

[Raziel]

Hamuul is the Tauren dude.

[Jeedup]

I just wish that asshole dead, dead hard. Staghelm is the reason Orcs hate trees.

[Raziel]

Seeing as Orcs and Humans have been harvesting Lumber for war against each other since the term "Night Elf" was used solely for the works of R.A. Salvatore, I don't think so.

[maurdakar]

Horde are evil now, we don't have to prove it anymore, level up a toon on both sides, read the quest text.

[Necroxis]

I would say elements of the Horde are evil, and always have been, but the Horde as a whole is not.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Horde are evil now, we don't have to prove it anymore, level up a toon on both sides, read the quest text.

It's quite a shame. It seems like we just redeemed the Orcs in Warcraft III, and then all of the sudden the Horde gets Garrosh'd, and Sylvannas'd.

If you ask me though, I think Garrosh is not going to live through Cataclysm, and I think Blizzard has something planned. He's like the pig being fattened up for the slaughter.

*Eyes the spider web hanging in Garrosh's room expectantly.*

[Jeedup]

Dunno where you're getting the Horde are Evil now.

That would be like saying the Alliance is Evil now, because of Varian Wyrnn (but then certain people will just immediately say that anyways).

It seems, when in talking about the Horde, AND the Alliance, that there is more to just their respective names. While a few orcs attitudes might be 'kicking it old school', not all the orcs will. Saurfang, I still feel, may eventually do something incredibly epic this expansion. Hell, the trolls (look at how Vol'Jin feels about Garrosh) thing some things are going to fast.

Does this all equal 'evil'? No, but there is always more than just one side to the stories in the game, and they have to make them dynamic on both factions, as well as play off on history. Of course Orcs may have some race issues with Humans, and of course, so will the Humans. The Second and Third War weren't all that far off ago, and people WILL still remember it on both sides.

[Jeedup]

I have no idea why this got locked. The mods have been having problems with threads locking sometimes after one of us has posted. I just now saw this, so if anyone thought it was because of behavior, it wasn't.

[Zultingo]

Horde are evil now, we don't have to prove it anymore, level up a toon on both sides, read the quest text.

OH GODS THE ALLIANCE IS EVIL NOW BECAUSE OF MARDURDKAR!

Did I do it right?

I've leveled several troll characters (because the term "toon" is stupid) with the new leveling area by now, and the only impression I've got of "evil" is that the alliance constantly persist in believing that we're a bunch of godless fuckheads.
The alliance is basically fox news, but for even bigger idiots.

[maurdakar]

I don’t know Zultingo, for example on alliance side I just did a quest in Northwatch Hold about the Rageroars (a tribe who are finally destroying northwatch). It seems the Rageroars assaulted a bunch of Gilnean ships, full of refugees, killed the Gilneans with arrows and spears while they drowned and then skinned the worgen to use as hats. While this reveals how the Horde are fucking hardcore and don’t take shit from no ones, especially refugees, it also serves as an example of how the two factions operate. The Alliance basically do the same awful things in other zones, killing and burning and whatnot, but from the quest text you get the impression they are allot less gung-ho for it.

An alliance soldier sombrely kills an orc and then shrugs it off.
An Orc soldier goes berserk and kills a human then goes off to brag.

What I mean to say is that at the end of the day killing in war is killing in war, no matter how you go about it, in a bloodlust or a cold stoic demeanour. I feel the Alliance wins points for trying to be civil about the whole thing, yet what really gets me saying they are the good guys is the massive amount hypocrisy on the horde team, plus I feel the Alliance is in the right in allot of the land claims/territorial disputes. Slap the big ole forsaken onto of this and I feel the Blues are a moral step above the horde, not good guys, but a shade lighter.

For the record I have levelled several characters myself, one of them a troll on this server. I still need the new Lore master on both a Horde and Alliance toon (I’m further progressed on my alliance), but I like to think I know what I am talking about (to an extent) seeing as how I have literally done almost every single quest in this entire game.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

What I mean to say is that at the end of the day killing in war is killing in war, no matter how you go about it, in a bloodlust or a cold stoic demeanour. I feel the Alliance wins points for trying to be civil about the whole thing, yet what really gets me saying they are the good guys is the massive amount hypocrisy on the horde team, plus I feel the Alliance is in the right in allot of the land claims/territorial disputes. Slap the big ole forsaken onto of this and I feel the Blues are a moral step above the horde, not good guys, but a shade lighter.

I will first say in respect to hypocrisy that Blizzard has done a masterful job of creating a Horde spin to many of their conflicts. My focus is almost always on Ashenvale, and there, the Horde have turned an aggressive invasion into a desperate move to feed their children. However, the feeling is common on the story forums. While people on both sides will argue vehimently to show that their side is morally justified in what they're doing, there is general agreement that the Horde is a darker shade of grey.

To descend further into my own opinion, there are things in this game which I will not do because I find them difficult to stomach. For the most recent example: There are a series of quests in the Thousand Needles where a Gnome asks you to negociate for oil rights. I "tricked" the Tauren into attacking me to get his plans instead of attacking him outright. I assisted the skeptical centaur in the town, I even harvested the fake gold and was promptly attacked for doing so. When the gnome, however, said that the centaur had spit in our faces and that it was now time to take the oil from them by force, I refused to take that quest, and proceeded on to Tanaris. With Cataclysm, creating a Horde character has joined the list of one of those things.

[maurdakar]

Got to get both sides of the story if you want to judge IMO.

As for the hypocrisy... In Stonetalon the Tauren are on about how the Alliance are disturbing their sacred ground, yet that doesn’t seem to concern them so much as far as the Elves ancestral lands go, and in another area of the zone (which you are never sent to as a horde) the goblins are strip-mining huge chunks of the mountains. In southern barrens the horde are mad because of Taurajo (you end up arresting the looters who commit the crime) tauren were killed and life is sacred. So then the horde send goblin suicide bombers to kill the alliance.

Sylvanas is crazy about how Lorderans sovereignty is too be respected. So she invades a completely neutral neighbour who has no relation to the current conflict. Southern Barrens aside you have the horde as the aggressors (and winners) in basically every other conflict across both continents. What happens in Ashenvale is just plain evil, no one has the right to come and just take shit that belongs to other people. To top it off the horde are attacking now specifically because the Kaledorei are busy in Hyjal trying to save the world.

The one mistake I feel was made in the cataclysm “blueprint” was that there was no cataclysm content added in Northrend. Northrend is a viable continent now, there should have been new quests (like ten or so per zone) in each zone about the horde and alliance fighting it out over resources. My statement "Horde are evil now, we don't have to prove it anymore." is more of a challenge. DOn't believe me? Level characters on both sides, the new quests are all fun now so its great! :D

I think Blizzard also does a great job of "setting up" the lowbies against the opposing faction using "props". For example in Elwynn you fight Blackrock orcs alot (unrelated to the horde but it starts the train of thought moving doesn't it?), in lowbie horde zones you can find yourself fighting cultists or other non-alliance factions which are composed largely of the races of the opposite faction. Difficult to describe this, but look for it as you level and you'll see it, its there ;).

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

What happens in Ashenvale is just plain evil, no one has the right to come and just take shit that belongs to other people.

I've been saying this for a long time, but the rebuttals have always been there.

"The Horde needs it, therefore they are justified."
"The Night Elves attacked the Orcs first in the Third War."
"The Borders of Ashenvale aren't clear."
"The Night Elves are responsible for the sundering, so they deserve it."
"SHATTERSPEAR GENOCIDE!"
"The Night Elves joined the Alliance."
"It's not Night Elf land, it's troll land."
"One cannot lay claim to property or the resources upon it." (I had a load of fun with this person...)
"Night Elves are psychotic, homocidal xenophobes, therefore they deserve it."
"Varian Wrynn declared war on the Horde in the Undercity."
"It's called WARcraft"
"The Night Elves cut off trade, by doing so, they killed children."
"Garrosh is right, all of Kalimdor SHOULD belong to the Horde."
"It wasn't the Horde, it was the Twilights. They started the war, not the Horde."
"The Alliance attacked Camp Taurajo."
"Orgrimmar needs a buffer zone between itself and the Alliance."
"The Night Elves were poised to attack the Barrens."
"Ashenvale is contested territory, not Night Elven."
"Ashenvale is uninhabited, no one lives there, the Night Elves can't just claim it."

I could go on...

[Jeedup]

You use your phrase rebuttals that they aren't legitimate reasons either. Both that, and that what happened in Ashenvale is wrong, its a matter of perspective, something you do need to consider.

And to your challenge that 'Horde are evil now', they just aren't. They're seriously, just different in their approach. You reference a social difference in how the 'Alliance' (though, it seems you reference human reactions more than other races), will view war with a stoic face, while 'Horde' (mostly Orcs and Forsaken, though they differ alittle), will celebrate their victory. They're both the same reaction, from different people. Thats the 'flavor' of the factions and races that people have been trying to explain, that people seem to just ignore.

The reason why there was no new content in Northrend to speak of, is why there was no new content in Outlands for both Wrath, and now Cataclysm. It wasn't the focus of this expansion, and they wanted people to enjoy those areas as close to their original point as possible. Weird time loop asside, its honestly better that way.

[maurdakar]

I was trying to explain to a lowbie the other day who came to me and was all: "WE HAVE TO STOP ILLIDAN!!" Bless them, they are just learning to roleplay. Outlands and Northrend are -a moment in time- as I described it.

[Jeedup]

It was a time-lost warrior, duh. God Maur, don't be so ignorant and demeaning of other peoples roleplay.

/end sarcasm.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

You use your phrase rebuttals that they aren't legitimate reasons either. Both that, and that what happened in Ashenvale is wrong, its a matter of perspective, something you do need to consider.

Perspective can only go so far. I'm sure that someone embezzling thousands of dollars from the company that they work for would love to entertain the idea that perspective is everything, and that they were just taking what they needed to feed their families, but the fact remains that theft is wrong in just about every culture on earth, and that's true for a very good reason. Rationalization is a critical component to fraud, and quite frankly, it isn't all that hard to spot.

[Jeedup]

By you're own logic then, Alliance is as wrong and evil as the Horde.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

By you're own logic then, Alliance is as wrong and evil as the Horde.

Elaborate please.

[Jeedup]

Hands are currently in gloves caked in silicone and particulate catalysts, I'll type it out in abit.

[Lythas]

Elaborate please.


Perspective can only go so far.

Let's look at this from the whole Ashenvale argument. Killing is wrong, isn't it? The Orcs apparently started shredding up sacred land and whatnot out of ignorance, and the Night Elves decided to spork first, ask questions later. It wasn't to defend themselves as a people from a threat, but because they were pissed that the Orcs smushed their sacred lulz cows of wisps and trees. There was no DIRECT threat to their existence. Doesn't matter that the Orcs were tearing up the land. They were not aware it was under 'protection' and ownership of the Nelves, and instead of being rational and approaching first, the Night Elves outright went balls to the wall against them.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Let's look at this from the whole Ashenvale argument. Killing is wrong, isn't it? The Orcs apparently started shredding up sacred land and whatnot out of ignorance, and the Night Elves decided to spork first, ask questions later. It wasn't to defend themselves as a people from a threat, but because they were pissed that the Orcs smushed their sacred lulz cows of wisps and trees. There was no DIRECT threat to their existence. Doesn't matter that the Orcs were tearing up the land. They were not aware it was under 'protection' and ownership of the Nelves, and instead of being rational and approaching first, the Night Elves outright went balls to the wall against them.


"The Night Elves attacked the Orcs first in the Third War."

First, yes. The Night Elves should have negociated before attacking Grom Hellscream's forces. I'd feel for the emissary, who knows that Grom's forces were killing wisps without even bothering to figure out what they were and if they were a threat, but the Night Elves should have negociated.

Having said that, the Third War has long been over. Hyjal was something of a reset button for both sides. The Orcs and Night Elves were now fully aware of each other, and right after Hyjal, the Humans were just as bad as the Orcs. The difference, I contend, between the two is that the Humans withdrew whereas the Orcs did not. Then we got retconned into "Oh, actually the Night Elves were trading with the Orcs before they got angry about the Wrathgate" (Don't even get me started on the economic stupidity of that embargo...) and we all know what happened after that. The Cataclysm manual actually tells us:


Most recently [Warchief Garrosh Hellscream] led his forces on a rampage through neighboring Ashenvale, claiming much of what was once night elf land.

This act is what I'm primarily criticizing. Warcraft III is well in the past, and simply not relevant to the current situation.

[Jeedup]

You've referenced actions before and after the Third War before as examples as how the Horde is evil and bad, so I don't think you can exactly ignore that. However, for the sake of the current example, I'll stay more recent.

The new Ashenvale issue still personally confuses me (mostly as I've not gotten to that area yet), and am I correct in saying thats the conflict that Garrosh executed the General responsible for? Now sure, that military movement is still Horde, but it seems it went farther then it should have. That, is a matter of perspective. Garrosh may (speculative talk here) just wanted to move in, make a legitimate victory to side with a legitimate claim to those lands and its resource by military annexation. By the Alliance perspective, this is evil, wrong, murderous, and unforgivable. By the Horde perspective, the land was needed and the enemy has been a nusiance for a long time, and yes, thats a reference to the Grom incident, but not a direct on in terms of responsiblity. Orcs just have long memories for incidents like that.

Taurajo seems to be the Alliance version of such an event, and, by the matter of perspective, makes the Alliance as equally as 'evil and wrong', for the ambush and destruction of the Tauren in a Horde soverign territory. Sound familiar? The Horde take this (specifically Orcs, Tauren and Trolls) as a severe insult, and almost an outright invitation to war. Lives were taken needlessly, property damages, and an affront to the Taurens religious view (thats mostly from my perspective, since the corpses were laid out, the Tauren seemed most distraught from the lack of care for the fallen by the enemy). In the Alliance perspective (I'm possibly off on my timing, but the rational is still legitimate) it was a needed action for Ashenvale, from the Hordes, it was 'evil and wrong'.

The reason people (and rightfully so) will find preference from Alliance (and race specific), and Horde (and race specific), is because Blizzard literally does write both seperately, but also mirrors them. Each has its own social and cultural differences, and in the nature of this specific MMO (something I've said a few times before), neither is the 'Bad Guy' or the 'Good Guy'. They each have their own flavor, and yes, their own perspecitive.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

The new Ashenvale issue still personally confuses me (mostly as I've not gotten to that area yet), and am I correct in saying thats the conflict that Garrosh executed the General responsible for? Now sure, that military movement is still Horde, but it seems it went farther then it should have. That, is a matter of perspective. Garrosh may (speculative talk here) just wanted to move in, make a legitimate victory to side with a legitimate claim to those lands and its resource by military annexation. By the Alliance perspective, this is evil, wrong, murderous, and unforgivable. By the Horde perspective, the land was needed and the enemy has been a nusiance for a long time, and yes, thats a reference to the Grom incident, but not a direct on in terms of responsiblity. Orcs just have long memories for incidents like that.

General Krom'gar was in charge of Stonetalon, not Ashenvale. He was burning down forests, capturing sentinels and leaving them in cages to starve (at least, this is the implication that I get when they tell you that if it weren't for you, they would have died), and of course, bombing a druid school. From what I have heard, Garrosh doesn't just want Ashenvale, he wants all of Kalimdor, and the fact that he's attacking Darkshore as well seems to support this.

What is very clear is that both lands were in a state of peace before Garrosh suddenly attacked. The reason cited is Orgrimmar's lack of resources, both in lumber and food, which were cut off when the Night Elves suddenly cut off trade with the Horde.

As economically wrongheaded as an embargo is, I believe that nations should have the right to set their own trade policies. I also believe that it is not acceptable to steal from someone else to provide for yourself.


Taurajo seems to be the Alliance version of such an event, and, by the matter of perspective, makes the Alliance as equally as 'evil and wrong', for the ambush and destruction of the Tauren in a Horde soverign territory. Sound familiar? The Horde take this (specifically Orcs, Tauren and Trolls) as a severe insult, and almost an outright invitation to war. Lives were taken needlessly, property damages, and an affront to the Taurens religious view (thats mostly from my perspective, since the corpses were laid out, the Tauren seemed most distraught from the lack of care for the fallen by the enemy). In the Alliance perspective (I'm possibly off on my timing, but the rational is still legitimate) it was a needed action for Ashenvale, from the Hordes, it was 'evil and wrong'.

From what I can tell, the Barrens invasion was to establish needed supply lines to Ashenvale in the wake of Garrosh's recent expansionism. We should also remember that as far as this war has gotten, it isn't going to end until either Garrosh is victorious, and all of Azeroth is under a Horde flag, or Garrosh is removed from his position as Warchief. If Varian has to invade the Barrens to ensure that the latter becomes a reality, then he has to do so.

If you intend to reference Taurajo, what happened at Camp Taurajo was unacceptable, and even Hawthorne acknowledges that (he did try to leave holes in his lines for civillians to escape, he never intended harm upon them). It's negligence on Stormwind's part because they sent convincts to fight their wars, who disobeyed Hawthorne's explicit orders multiple times. The Alliance player even has a quest to kill looters in Taurajo.


The reason people (and rightfully so) will find preference from Alliance (and race specific), and Horde (and race specific), is because Blizzard literally does write both seperately, but also mirrors them. Each has its own social and cultural differences, and in the nature of this specific MMO (something I've said a few times before), neither is the 'Bad Guy' or the 'Good Guy'. They each have their own flavor, and yes, their own perspecitive.

As, I said, perspective only goes so far. This is why, at least on the story forums on the official website, it is almost universally accepted that the Horde is at least a darker shade of grey than the Alliance. Both have done, and still do terrible things, but the Horde does them more frequently, and in cases more egregiously.

[Jeedup]

General Krom'gar was in charge of Stonetalon, not Ashenvale. He was burning down forests, capturing sentinels and leaving them in cages to starve (at least, this is the implication that I get when they tell you that if it weren't for you, they would have died), and of course, bombing a druid school. From what I have heard, Garrosh doesn't just want Ashenvale, he wants all of Kalimdor, and the fact that he's attacking Darkshore as well seems to support this.

I don't agree on the conquering of Kalimdor, because though Garrosh is definitely courageous, and a decent tactician, he is not stupid.
But then, beside that, that is a rationalization of yours, to grant support to your perspective that the Horde are 'evil'. See how I mean by the logic which you quoted, both sides are evil? Well, let me keep going.


What is very clear is that both lands were in a state of peace before Garrosh suddenly attacked. The reason cited is Orgrimmar's lack of resources, both in lumber and food, which were cut off when the Night Elves suddenly cut off trade with the Horde.

I wouldn't say a state of peace, more like a cease fire, or a call off of open hostilities. I also don't feel that we can track Garrosh to being the one that 'fired the first shot in the night'. This is my personal view, but I think it was the events of Wrathgate that caused what is going on now. A third party (though, could argue its still Horde, though that group of Forsaken were somewhat acting on their own), cause a reevaluation of how things are being done in Azeroth. People are just now sick of it.

Now, citing those reasons for the Horde attacks, those would be rationalizations to bring emphasis to the Horde perspective. It goes both ways. You can go even farther down the line of reasoning and rationalization, that is still the Alliances fault for that, as the actions of one Admiral Proudmoore, a destinguished commander against the First Horde, and great opponent of allowing Orcs[Horde] their freedom, and caused the deforrestation of lower Durotar. Again, rationalizations.


As economically wrongheaded as an embargo is, I believe that nations should have the right to set their own trade policies. I also believe that it is not acceptable to steal from someone else to provide for yourself.

Personally, I just think it was bad writing *shrug*.


From what I can tell, the Barrens invasion was to establish needed supply lines to Ashenvale in the wake of Garrosh's recent expansionism. We should also remember that as far as this war has gotten, it isn't going to end until either Garrosh is victorious, and all of Azeroth is under a Horde flag, or Garrosh is removed from his position as Warchief. If Varian has to invade the Barrens to ensure that the latter becomes a reality, then he has to do so.

That is NOTHING different that the reasons for attacking Ashenvale, they are completely the same. The only difference, and it is minor, is which one happened first, but that gives neither one the 'right' or 'wrong' side. The need for the Alliance to establish a line of movement through a Horde soverign territory is as much a rationalization for their perspective, as it is for the Horde in Ashenvale. Both sides, doing the same thing. Lets not forget, that Varian Wyrnn has no right to lay any claim on who should be the legitimate ruler (or one at all) of the Horde, and you're using that statement as a way to rationalize his actions. Then the same can be said for something else mirroring that: The Forsaken attack and attempted invasion of Gilenas.


If you intend to reference Taurajo, what happened at Camp Taurajo was unacceptable, and even Hawthorne acknowledges that (he did try to leave holes in his lines for civillians to escape, he never intended harm upon them). It's negligence on Stormwind's part because they sent convincts to fight their wars, who disobeyed Hawthorne's explicit orders multiple times. The Alliance player even has a quest to kill looters in Taurajo.

As much as the General in Stonetalon that was punished by Garrosh for his misuse of tactics, the same situation is mirrored in the Alliance perspective with Hawthorne (actually just started that chain Alliance side about an hour ago). Like mentioned, different perspective, rationalizations, social and cultural views, but in the end, they are stories mirroring one another.


As, I said, perspective only goes so far. This is why, at least on the story forums on the official website, it is almost universally accepted that the Horde is at least a darker shade of grey than the Alliance. Both have done, and still do terrible things, but the Horde does them more frequently, and in cases more egregiously.

I can agree with the darker shade, but only to the extent that it does not again, make them evil, or bad. You really need to take the cultural and flavor differences into account when viewing this sort of lore in this manner, as they will all have subtle or blunt differences in approach. Thats the very essence of how the story for the WarCraft fictional universe got started in the first place.

Well, beside it being a launch of a failed Games Workshop stradegy game.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I don't agree on the conquering of Kalimdor, because though Garrosh is definitely courageous, and a decent tactician, he is not stupid.
You might want to tell that to the Shatterspear Trolls... or what's left of them. You might also want to tell it to the legion of orcs on the way to Vash'ir, who seem to have this idea that they're bringing all of Azeroth under the Horde's banner.

You might also want to tell Garrosh:
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=25275

Your people are busy with the terraforming of Azshara. We will remake the land in the image of the Horde so that all will know that Kalimdor is ours!


I wouldn't say a state of peace, more like a cease fire, or a call off of open hostilities. I also don't feel that we can track Garrosh to being the one that 'fired the first shot in the night'. This is my personal view, but I think it was the events of Wrathgate that caused what is going on now. A third party (though, could argue its still Horde, though that group of Forsaken were somewhat acting on their own), cause a reevaluation of how things are being done in Azeroth. People are just now sick of it.

I disagree. I believe that in fact we can track it reliably.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/09/10/cataclysm-preview-ashenvale/

As the night elves struggle to deal with the chaos caused by the Cataclysm, the Horde is seizing what it perceives to be a golden opportunity. Garrosh Hellscream's forces are now bearing down upon the night elves and have overtaken several key positions that once served as Alliance strongholds.



Now, citing those reasons for the Horde attacks, those would be rationalizations to bring emphasis to the Horde perspective. It goes both ways. You can go even farther down the line of reasoning and rationalization, that is still the Alliances fault for that, as the actions of one Admiral Proudmoore, a destinguished commander against the First Horde, and great opponent of allowing Orcs[Horde] their freedom, and caused the deforrestation of lower Durotar. Again, rationalizations.

Except with Proudmoore, no Alliance nation ordered his attack, and no Alliance nation knew of his intentions. At the time, no Alliance nation aside from Theramore knew that Kalimdor had existed in the first place. (Bearing in mind, at the time the Night Elves were still their own seperate faction, who for their part were not involved at all with the Old Hatreds campaign.) It makes it kind of difficult to pin the blame on the Alliance, let alone the Night Elves, who were at least willing to trade with the Orcs for a while.

I'd also mention, if the Horde's concern involves wood, I'd have to wonder why. They, like me, are living in a desert. Do you know what happens to wood in a desert? Do you know why instead of picket fences, we have stone walls? Do you know why even our roof shingles are made out of stone?


Personally, I just think it was bad writing *shrug*.

THANK YOU! I knew I wasn't the only one who thought this!


That is NOTHING different that the reasons for attacking Ashenvale, they are completely the same. The only difference, and it is minor, is which one happened first, but that gives neither one the 'right' or 'wrong' side. The need for the Alliance to establish a line of movement through a Horde soverign territory is as much a rationalization for their perspective, as it is for the Horde in Ashenvale. Both sides, doing the same thing. Lets not forget, that Varian Wyrnn has no right to lay any claim on who should be the legitimate ruler (or one at all) of the Horde, and you're using that statement as a way to rationalize his actions. Then the same can be said for something else mirroring that: The Forsaken attack and attempted invasion of Gilenas.

Only they're establishing the line of movement because of the Horde's attacks in Ashenvale. This is a reaction to the Orcs' action of attacking Ashenvale for resources. As for Varian Wrynn's stance on who should lead the Horde, it has been made very clear that Garrosh is an unacceptable threat to the Alliance. When you go off attacking your neighbors so that you can take their stuff, you tend to earn that sort of treatment.


I can agree with the darker shade, but only to the extent that it does not again, make them evil, or bad. You really need to take the cultural and flavor differences into account when viewing this sort of lore in this manner, as they will all have subtle or blunt differences in approach. Thats the very essence of how the story for the WarCraft fictional universe got started in the first place.

I'm not sure if I said the word evil. Wrong maybe, but not evil. I think we're disagreeing to agree on this point.

[Jeedup]

You're proving the point however, again, with the logic of the quote you stated. Thats not meant as an insult however, I'm trying to shine a light towards the way this MMO is written. I've already said I agreed with you, so I'm unsure why you're seeming to ignore/forget/misplace that.

Your (generalized sense: Alliance) rationalization for Alliance actions are the same in essence of rationalization of Horde actions, and the opposite as well.

In regards to your 'tracking' of the exact moment, it seems you've changed from tracking the intent of it, to tracking the specific action. It seems you occasionally do this in some arguements, so let me clarify. The thought behind continueing the general tense peace was still alive and well (and thanks to Thrall, Horde side), up until Wrathgate. If it wasn't for that moment, and more specifically, the actions inside Undercity directly after, Garrosh would have had little to no justification for his views of the Alliance and its leaders, and the Varian Wyrnn would have had a hard time getting others to back his own feelings of distrust of a 'civilized' Horde if it wasn't for that moment as well. Once that happened, everyone was looking over their shoulders.

As to the action? Sure, The Horde (under Garrosh), maybe have bitten first, but again, using your own reasoning, I can also track it down to the Alliance at blame. Internment Camps, aggressive actions against the Forsaken/Blood Elves, incursions into soverign territory by the Alliance (or factions loyal to), attempts to undermine the Hordes political structure, failures at diplomacy, the continued occupation of Outland, ect ect, and so on and so forth.

Now, to actions of the past. You have cited actions by the Horde in the past, as being still responsible, or actions against factions that were not originally part of the Alliance, but are now, as an action against the Alliance. Thats more the matter of politics, not necessarily the reasoning behind it. If you can see that the Horde are responsible for actions against the Alliance (Night Elves) before they were even a part of the Alliance, so ture goes for actions against the Horde by past factions in the Alliance, namely Proudmoore. If you're going to allow, or not allow, one example, you have to allow them all. While Proudmoores attacts were not 'sanctioned' by the Alliance at the time, he was still a political figure who was a key member and leader, of the Alliance at the time. Now, yes, he was displaced, and even killed. It gets flip floppy and hard to follow sure, Gilenas is also bring this up.

Side note: Durotar (specifically the southern section), had forests, quite lush ones apparently, and Proudmoore IS responsible for their destruction, and it could be argued, is then responsible for what happened in Ashenvale. Hah! It was another Alliance to blame all along! (<- That was a joke).


Only they're establishing the line of movement because of the Horde's attacks in Ashenvale. This is a reaction to the Orcs' action of attacking Ashenvale for resources. As for Varian Wrynn's stance on who should lead the Horde, it has been made very clear that Garrosh is an unacceptable threat to the Alliance. When you go off attacking your neighbors so that you can take their stuff, you tend to earn that sort of treatment.

Exactly what I was talking about. One action will lead to another, neither one will be more 'right' or 'wrong'. Both sides will still be the same shade of grey in the end.

As for Varians stance? Than you can easily say that viewpoint legitimizes The Forsakens view on Gilenas, or Garrosh's need to move into Ashenvale.

I'm not saying 'you're doing it wrong', but as I said, just trying to shine a light that both sides are again, still being dumb. I don't want you to continue to make semi-definitive statements, then wonder why everyones jumping down your throat. Still have love for the Night Elves, totally fine and don't stop, but when discussing lore from the outsiders point, it can get alittle dull.

[Necroxis]

Just to butt in:

Twilight's Hammer attacking a Druid envoy between Hamuul Runetotem and a Night Elf contingent of Druids is pretty much one of the first sparks of this Fourth War (I'm calling it that now because it's pretty much what it is).

Jeedup: You guys can argue your rationalizations out fine, but I think that bringing up Proudmoore in the conversation is a bit nonsensical. Like Aleria said, he wasn't part of the new Alliance, he wasn't on anybody's orders, he just came in and decided to wreck shit up. Unlike the Horde now, which is the amalgamation of the Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, Forsaken, Blood Elves, and Goblins all of whom are in that together. It's true that the 'new' Alliance wasn't around yet, but Proudmoore still didn't have "permission" or the backing of Stormwind, Ironforge, or the Night Elves to attack Orgrimmar.

Aleria: They never retconned anything regarding trade between the Night Elves and the Orcs. For everything I've looked at, they never present it as: "The Night Elves have been trading lumber with them ever since post-Third War." If anything, it seemed like the trade was only recently, perhaps at the onset of the war against the Lich King, and ends with the Wrathgate, and is further justified by the killing of Night Elven Druids by the Twilight's Hammer acting as Horde.

[Jeedup]

Just to butt in:

Twilight's Hammer attacking a Druid envoy between Hamuul Runetotem and a Night Elf contingent of Druids is pretty much one of the first sparks of this Fourth War (I'm calling it that now because it's pretty much what it is).

Interesting, I must have missed this.



Jeedup: You guys can argue your rationalizations out fine, but I think that bringing up Proudmoore in the conversation is a bit nonsensical. Like Aleria said, he wasn't part of the new Alliance, he wasn't on anybody's orders, he just came in and decided to wreck shit up. Unlike the Horde now, which is the amalgamation of the Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, Forsaken, Blood Elves, and Goblins all of whom are in that together. It's true that the 'new' Alliance wasn't around yet, but Proudmoore still didn't have "permission" or the backing of Stormwind, Ironforge, or the Night Elves to attack Orgrimmar.I know this, as I mentioned in my references to this, it's on the same foot as blaming the Horde for what they did to the Night Elves, when they also weren't a part of the current Alliance. The current Horde was also still in flux at the point where Proudmoore came in (this is mostly due to foggy dates on Blizzards part), as it was mostly just Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls still trickling in. I know full well he was acting mostly on his own, but also, as a part of the Alliance. You can't argue away that he WAS a major leader of the Lordaeron Alliance, which was still -somewhat- around in a function according to the comics (*gag*) and the little background lore that out around the time JUST after the end of Hyjal's destruction. Just as people (players/characters) bringing up the old Hordes actions of them being 'evil', and so on.

Go back and re-read what I was putting up (not ment as a crack, I admit I was writing alot), but to summarize what I was attempting to get at was, Blizzard balances its writing out for the larger conflicts. Early on (Classic WoW and Post-WarCraft 3) it appeared to either be a coincidence, or not their main focus. The more I'm out questing on Horde and Alliance, it seems they're doing it ALOT more frequently. Starts making that 'grey line' alittle on the boring side though. But they're still getting the flavor of both sides.

Your comment about that Druid convoy with the Twilight Hammer makes me wonder if the later content will show some sort of dubious scheme and conspiracies of a larger section of the Twilight Hammer. After all, they've proven all the races can get along together!

Together...... IN EEEEEEEEEVIL!!!

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I know this, as I mentioned in my references to this, it's on the same foot as blaming the Horde for what they did to the Night Elves, when they also weren't a part of the current Alliance.

Jeedup, can you please show me the spot in this post where I made this argument, and attempted to link it back to the aptly named "fourth war"? As I recall, my argument was that Garrosh was wrong to break the ceasefire with his sudden invasion of Ashenvale, which was and is an act of aggression against an Alliance nation.

[Necroxis]

Ok...let me fix this issue *ahems and gets out The Shattering*

FIRST EVENT:

A sentinel named Valarya arrives at Stormwind during the mass-funeral/prayer ritual that is going on for the causalities in the war against the Lich King. They report that:


"A dozen Sentinels had been ambushed as they guarded a convoy of harvested herbs and mineral carts making their way through the green forests of Ashenvale. None had survived. Their deaths were only discovered when the convoy was two days late in arriving at it's destination. The carts and all they had contained were gone" Furthermore, Valarya continues,


"...they [the bodies of the slain sentinels] had been methodically chopped into several pieces. And those pieces were taken away by carrion eaters. This was, of course, after they had been skinned. We're not sure if they were alive for that or not. The skins were hung like linens from a nearby tree. And on that tree, written in elven blood, were Horde symbols."

Immediately, Varian targets Thrall and begins yelling at Jaina for not letting him kill the Orc. Jaina throws the Defias in his face to counter his "Orcs did this, Thrall leads the Orcs, so it's Thrall's fault." Varian throws Arthas in Jaina's face and she leaves. Later on, she returns and Varian states that he's sending several Alchemists to Ashenvale to assist the Night Elves in looking over the site of the slaughter. An emissary would, also, be sent to Thrall to conduct an inquiry.

Later on, Jaina meets with Thrall secretly, who confirms that he did not authorize the incursion into Ashenvale. However, he notes that "the results have proven...very popular" among the Orcs. Thrall states he received Varian's emissary, who demanded that:

1.) Thrall issue a formal apology
2.) Reaffirm his dedication to the peace treaty
3.) Denounce actions
4.) Turn over those responsible to the Alliance.

Thrall states that he will say he did not condone the actions, and he will seek out those responsible. But he cannot apologize for the violence, nor will turn over any of the suspects. Because they are Horde, they are to be judged by Horde. He finishes by stating that Varian would never do the same if the situation was reversed. He notes that the Horde are suffering greatly by the Night Elves closing trade following the betrayal at the Wrathgate, and him condemning the attacks would be to condemn the fact that the Horde are suffering because of a lack of resources. Jaina states she's incredibly disappointed in Thrall for chosing this path. They then argue about the Wrathgate, Jaina states: "Especially when so many of the fallen died at Horde hands, and not the Scourge" to which Thrall rebukes her by stating that Putress was not of the Horde. It seems that she might not even believe this. She states that many people cannot distinguish the difference.

SECOND EVENT:

Thrall makes Garrosh Warchief and leaves to Nagrand to determine why the elementals are restless. Thrall leaves Cairne, among others, as advisors for Garrosh.

THIRD EVENT:

Peace talks occur between the Horde (Through the Tauren) and the Alliance (Through the Night Elves) at Moonglade. Hamuul Runetotem had been clandestinely sending letters, couriers, and representatives. The Night Elves refused to respond at first, but the Night Elves eventually agree to a meeting to discuss things over. Cairne wonders why Hamuul and the Night Elves do not meet in Moonglade, opting to gather in Ashenvale. The reason is because Remulos does not get involved in the affairs of the Horde and ALliance.

FOURTH EVENT:

The meeting begins well, if a bit tense. Suddenly a contingent of Orcs attack, arrows downing two Night Elven druids instantly. Archdruid Renferal of the Night Elves exclaims, "We came in good faith!" before shifting into Cat form and fighting, but ultimately is slain. As are the rest of the Tauren and Night Elves. Runetotem is the last standing and speaks to the leader of the Orcs, inquiring who sent them, "Was it Garrosh!?" Gorkrak, the leader of the attacking Orcs, responds with, "Who is Garrosh?" Hamuul realizes the truth a bit too late, and an arrow is shot at him.

Gorkrak gives a Twilight Hammer monologue and then buries them all. Hamuul manages to return to Thunder Bluff, he was not dead, and informs Cairne.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The rest of the novel is pretty unrelated to the topic. The point in writing all of this is to state that the not Alliance, nor the Horde, attacked first and broke the treaty. The suggestion is STRONGLY made that even the first attack on the Night Elf convoy was a manipulation of Twilight's Hammer. They also successfully reignite the Alliance vs Horde war by acting as if the Horde had betrayed the Alliance at the peace meeting, and vice-versa.

tl;dr:

Neither side broke the treaty first. The machinations of Twilight's Hammer caused the treaty between the two to dissolve, so whoever struck first after this occurs is pretty irrelevant because the treaty has already ended.

PS: Everyone should go read The Shattering, it's amazing.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Neither side broke the treaty first. The machinations of Twilight's Hammer caused the treaty between the two to dissolve, so whoever struck first after this occurs is pretty irrelevant because the treaty has already ended.


"It wasn't the Horde, it was the Twilights. They started the war, not the Horde."

Garrosh didn't lift a finger to figure out what happened when he became Warchief. The Night Elves never retaliate against the Horde for the Twilight attacks, instead, the Horde attack Ashenvale for its resources. The argument almost seems to suggest that because the Twilights broke the peace, it's perfectly fine now for the Horde to launch an invasion. I disagree and see this as a missed opportunity. Garrosh could have said something to the effect of "These mongrels have not only soiled by good name, but the good name of the Horde with their dishonorable and cowardly actions, and we will see them hunted down and brought to face justice", which may have bettered relations with the Night Elves, and potentially led to the reopening of trade. Instead, Garrosh seems to have gotten a bent for world domination... or at least that's what the legion headed to Vash'ir seems to think...

[Necroxis]

Except Garrosh, nor the Night Elves, or the Alliance knew Twilight's Hammer was behind it. Even Hamuul didn't hear the speech about him being a Twilight's Hammer agent, he was unconscious.

Nobody knew, hence why Cairne charges into Orgrimmar and starts blaming Garrosh for it, and that's why they duel and how Cairne dies.


The argument almost seems to suggest that because the Twilights broke the peace, it's perfectly fine now for the Horde to launch an invasion.

That's not the suggestion, that's what happens. Both sides are unaware that Twilight's Hammer is the reason the treaty is broken. Like I said, it doesn't matter who attacked first after this event occurred, because both sides now believe the other struck first and broke the treaty.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Except Garrosh, nor the Night Elves, or the Alliance knew Twilight's Hammer was behind it. Even Hamuul didn't hear the speech about him being a Twilight's Hammer agent, he was unconscious.

I'm not saying that they did, but I do know that Garrosh knows that he didn't ask whoever it was to attack the Night Elves, especially in such a cowardly fashion. Given Hellscream's reaction to the Broken Front, I would think that he wouldn't ignore something like that, but it appears that he does.


That's not the suggestion, that's what happens. Both sides are unaware that Twilight's Hammer is the reason the treaty is broken. Like I said, it doesn't matter who attacked first after this event occurred, because both sides now believe the other struck first and broke the treaty.

How does the Horde believe that the Alliance struck first and broke the treaty?

[Necroxis]

I'm not saying that they did, but I do know that Garrosh knows that he didn't ask whoever it was to attack the Night Elves, especially in such a cowardly fashion. Given Hellscream's reaction to the Broken Front, I would think that he wouldn't ignore something like that, but it appears that he does.

Where do you get the fact that it's "cowardly" from except your own words? Take out the Twilight's Hammer aspect and you have a group of Druids in cat form running somewhere, the Orcs track and kill them all. What's cowardly about that again? Not to mention that other things occur that kind of take precedent over "who" attacked the group. Namely Cairne's death and the overthrowing of Thunder Bluff by the Grimtotem.


How does the Horde believe that the Alliance struck first and broke the treaty?

...by logic? I would assume if the Alliance and Horde both know that there is to be a peace meeting to discuss the recent slaughtering of Night Elves, and then neither group returns, with no other evidence to state an outside force intervened, and then bodies hastily buried nearby...

Anyway, it really doesn't matter because the murders are already pinned on Garrosh. So even if the Horde didn't think the Alliance did it, the Alliance do.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Where do you get the fact that it's "cowardly" from except your own words? Take out the Twilight's Hammer aspect and you have a group of Druids in cat form running somewhere, the Orcs track and kill them all. What's cowardly about that again? Not to mention that other things occur that kind of take precedent over "who" attacked the group. Namely Cairne's death and the overthrowing of Thunder Bluff by the Grimtotem.

I think you're missing my point. Whether or not the Twilight attack is cowardly, Garrosh didn't order it. That's how he knows that the Horde didn't do it, and that's why I say he should offered to hunt the criminals down instead of invading Ashenvale.


...by logic? I would assume if the Alliance and Horde both know that there is to be a peace meeting to discuss the recent slaughtering of Night Elves, and then neither group returns, with no other evidence to state an outside force intervened, and then bodies hastily buried nearby...

By logic? What logic is that? Hamuul Runetotem tells Cairne about the attack, Cairne blames Garrosh. Who in this incident is blaming the Alliance?


Anyway, it really doesn't matter because the murders are already pinned on Garrosh. So even if the Horde didn't think the Alliance did it, the Alliance do.

This I won't dispute. However, after these events, the Night Elves do not attack back. It is instead the Horde who decide to turn things into a war.

[Necroxis]

Do you really think Garrosh cares? Honestly, Aleria, you hold Garrosh to some honor standard that he just doesn't meet up to. Why, honestly, would he care if peace negotiations broke down between the Horde and the Alliance. He wants war. He likes war. It gives him an excuse to attack whomever he wants again. It really sounds like Garrosh to go: "Hmm...the peace talks between the Horde and the Alliance have failed. I'm going to find out why.

You ignored the thing I said exactly after mentioning Cairne. He dies. Garrosh has a lot more to deal with than wondering, "What was he talking about again?" Considering he just killed the leader of the Tauren, Thunder Bluff gets taken over by Grimtotem, and Baine possibly wants his head on a platter. Like I said, logic would follow that if Cairne blames Garrosh for destroying the peace summit, and Garrosh didn't order it. Then who else could have done it besides the other party involved? Its not like Cairne says ANYTHING other than: "You ordered the attack on the Sentinels." How incredibly vague that statement is, and then the messenger is killed before anything else can be established further. Hamuul is off recovering after being nearly assassinated, and Thunder Bluff gets taken over by Grimtotem.

I feel like I keep saying the same thing over and over. Because I am.

[Chikt]

Baine doesn't want Garrosh's head on a platter. In fact, he's Garrosh's biggest supporter as far as the Horde leaders go (which isn't a huge stretch of the imagination).

[Necroxis]

No, Baine is openly hostile toward Garrosh in The Shattering. He responds coldly to Garrosh and is clearly angry at him throughout the entire novel. Instead of quoting like 6 pages out of The Shattering, I feel the last paragraph of the WoWWiki page on Baine in the Shattering should suffice:


Baine confronts Garrosh in Thousand Needles, accusing him of willfully participating in Magatha's treachery. Garrosh insists that he was unaware of the trickery until it was too late, and expects that Baine will also challenge him. Baine refuses, believing that Cairne's challenge was intended to unite the Horde and another challenge would divide it further, and begrudgingly considers the matter settled. Though he is still angry at Garrosh for his part in his father's death (after all, Garrosh had upped the ante by making the Mak'gora a duel to the death), Baine acknowledges him as his Warchief, to which Garrosh, admiring the new High Chieftain, pledges the loyalty of the Horde to the new leader of the tauren.

The Tauren/Orc relationship between Baine/Garrosh(Unless there's some quest that shows them dancing together in a bunch of flowers on Horde side that I haven't done) is definitely weaker than it was with Thrall/Cairne.

EDIT: Upon looking up Baine for any quests on Horde-side that I haven't done, I found an interesting quote from him that seems at least semi-relevant to the conversation:


The world is torn, and our Horde allies have turned down dark paths. We must guide them. Even in the darkest hour, we will bravely hold our heads high, and honor the Earth Mother in all we do.

[Chikt]

Re-read what I said. I didn't say that Baine was a fan, I said that at the very least he doesn't want Garrosh's head on a platter and that of all the leaders he's Garrosh's biggest supporter - after all, thus far I think he's the only one that's acknowledged him as Warchief (or at the very least, not whined about Garrosh afterward).

Basically, you're taking my post out of context and putting words in there that do not exist.

[Necroxis]

Mmm...true. Shifty, but true. I suppose if you have only one supporter, they are your biggest supporter.

[Chikt]

Mmm...true. Shifty, but true. I suppose if you have only one supporter, they are your biggest supporter.

To be fair we're not even sure what's happening with the Blood Elves or Goblins, but I think everybody in the Horde supports Garrosh. There are just varying levels of support - and most of them aren't exactly fans. They don't need to like Garrosh to support his decisions or the Horde. Zul'jin supports Garrosh, but only because Thrall has asked him to. Sylvannas supports Garrosh, but only because it serves her right now - and lets face it, it benefits her to have everybody point the finger at Garrosh.

I'm not saying anybody is a fan of Garrosh because I don't think anybody IS a fan of Garrosh. But Blizzard wouldn't make him leader of the Horde if they didn't intend for him to become liked at some point. They can't have a leader that every other leader hates, they give characters very little reason to like him from the start. But through the quest lines, I've learned to become quite a fan of Garrosh. He gets out there and he gets shit done. He has zero tolerance for failures or dishonor. He reminds me of a brash Saurfang.

But that's really beyond the point. I stopped caring about this thread when people started saying "the Horde is evil we don't need to prove it anymore just look at the quests we're unbiased".

[Jeedup]

Jeedup, can you please show me the spot in this post where I made this argument, and attempted to link it back to the aptly named "fourth war"? As I recall, my argument was that Garrosh was wrong to break the ceasefire with his sudden invasion of Ashenvale, which was and is an act of aggression against an Alliance nation.

Re-read what you quoted please. I didn't name you, however in the past (weeks ago, several pages back, and in other discussions), you mention it. As I stated, again, several times, I was using the reasoning mentioned in your quote, which seemed to be in an attempt to show the Horde as more wrong than the Alliance, which by looking at said statement, makes them both wrong.

And look over what Necro has been saying, because it shows alot of good points.

A third party, the Twilights, underminded everything.

Garrosh/Horde doesn't know it was the Twilights, so he thinks the Alliance did it. Why? As you said, he KNOWS he didn't order the attack, and his own people were killed.

Varian/Night Elves/Alliance doesn't know it was the Twilights, so he thinks the Horde did it. Why? As Necro said, because he knows he didn't order the attack, and his own people were killed.

Through espionage and terrorist tactics, the Twilight Hammer managed to get the two factions involved in an rising conflict against each other, playing off of their distrust, and their own strengths against them. Haamul, the Horde representative, AND THE ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE PEACE TALKS, gets killed and never tells Cairne, which leads Carine to think Garrosh plotted an ambush, but again, HE DIDN'T. He thinks the Alliance did, and is more justified for that belief after Carines reaction, and then defeat.

Seriously, reviews Necro's posts again, they spell it out pretty well.

[Necroxis]

But Blizzard wouldn't make him leader of the Horde if they didn't intend for him to become liked at some point. They can't have a leader that every other leader hates, they give characters very little reason to like him from the start.

Gallywix? I would think that statement still applies to faction leader instead of just warchief. I'm still hoping he gets offed by somebody.

[Chikt]

Gallywix? I would think that statement still applies to faction leader instead of just warchief. I'm still hoping he gets offed by somebody.

Gallywix, honestly, isn't an ongoing leader of the Goblins. After the events on the Lost Isles he is nowhere to be seen in game, at all. He's not even really mentioned in quest text except for static text from a few characters. If they do not plan to kill him off I will be very surprised. Gallywix cannot be compared to Garrosh. Gallywix enslaved his people - twice.

Garrosh, on the other hand, takes a very active role in the day to day politics and events of the world - going so far as to join the push into the Twilight Highlands. Blizzard is trying to make him into a likable leader, one that fights beside the Horde he leads. And it's working - for me, at least. The only people with a reason to dislike Garrosh at the end of the day are the Alliance.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Through espionage and terrorist tactics, the Twilight Hammer managed to get the two factions involved in an rising conflict against each other, playing off of their distrust, and their own strengths against them. Haamul, the Horde representative, AND THE ONE RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE PEACE TALKS, gets killed and never tells Cairne, which leads Carine to think Garrosh plotted an ambush, but again, HE DIDN'T. He thinks the Alliance did, and is more justified for that belief after Carines reaction, and then defeat.

All right. We have evidence that Cairne believes that Garrosh ordered the attack. We know that the Alliance thinks that their people were attacked by the Horde. Can someone please show me a piece of definitive evidence which proves that Garrosh believes that the Alliance attacked the peace conference? Or is this point conjecture?

[Necroxis]

There's not a passage in the book that states: 'ZOMG GARROSH REALIZED THE ALLIANCE PERPETRATED THE ACT'

People are just using common sense.

So...I give up. Because clearly unless there's a passage that says this, Garrosh must think some random force is responsible.

[Chikt]

Clearly since there isn't a passage saying Garrosh DIDN'T do it, he must be responsible.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

There's not a passage in the book that states: 'ZOMG GARROSH REALIZED THE ALLIANCE PERPETRATED THE ACT'

People are just using common sense.

So...I give up. Because clearly unless there's a passage that says this, Garrosh must think some random force is responsible.

Necroxis, I can base a lot of things off of "common sense". I can say that Varian has a strong desire to put Thrall's head on a pike based off of "common sense". I can say that Sylvannas ordered Putress to do what he did based off of "common sense". I can claim that Stormwind's rediculous unemployment rate was caused by an oppressive tax scheme based on "common sense". However, "common sense" does not subsitute for evidence, which is why I refrain from making such arguments.

[Jeedup]

Sorry Necro, I tried man.

[Jeedup]

There is evidence.

The Twilight attack. Its spelled out, very plainly, that those involved think the opposite party did it. Necro said this, and very specifically.

You however, have said, that Garrosh did start it. Your proof is based on that he 'acts first', which is true. But that truth doesn't make him the one that struck first, because, again, THE TWILIGHT HAMMER DID. Garrosh feels the Alliance did it. Why? He didn't order it, and since none of his men survived, and he would assume that the Alliance that were killed, were killed in the act. It was also during an event, THAT A HORDE OFFICAL HAD ARRANGED FOR TALKS OF PEACE. To Garrosh, that spells out the Alliances blame.

To the Alliance, it would be because Garrosh ordered it, over a false flag of diplomacy, and like the dead Horde, were also killed in the act. Theres no 'Hey, we're the Twilight Hammer, we totally did that'.

Again, neither side is responsible for the 'first shot', their just responsible for BOTH BEING IDIOTS.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Garrosh feels the Alliance did it. Why? He didn't order it, and since none of his men survived, and he would assume that the Alliance that were killed, were killed in the act. It was also during an event, THAT A HORDE OFFICAL HAD ARRANGED FOR TALKS OF PEACE. To Garrosh, that spells out the Alliances blame.

You seem to know this about Garrosh, but I still see no evidence to support these claims. The claim seems especially inconsistent with the knowledge that Cairne directly blames the son of Hellscream for the attack in the first place.

[Jeedup]

You're right, I do know this. Why? BECAUSE IT'S BEEN EXPLAINED.

Even your attempt at making Carine as an excuse, it's been explained, but I'll do it one more time. As already stated, Cairne does not like Garrosh as the Warchief, and Cairne has been perhaps the ONLY Horde leader attempting to continue peace, along with Haamul. And AGAIN with the Twilight in this, everyones confused. Cairne, though a lover of peace, knows that Garrosh would respond to only an honor match for what he feels Garrosh is responsible for.

[Jeedup]

Keep it on topic, and keep it civil (includes myself and EVERYONE).

Contribute to the discussion, or don't at all.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Cairne, though a lover of peace, knows that Garrosh would respond to only an honor match for what he feels Garrosh is responsible for.

In other words, Garrosh believes that either Cairne, Hamuul, or both, are lying to him, and that an elaborate Alliance ploy is at work?

Again, I really need evidence to support this claim. Speculation on this sort of thing can go in literally every direction. It is certainly possible that Garrosh blames the Alliance for the attack, and is therefore using it for his aggression, (Cata manual, page 10's word, not mine) but "possible" is nowhere close to "true". If we are to seriously make the leap from possible to true, clear evidence is required, and I just don't see it.

[Grayslin]

Sorry in advance, but I couldn't help it.


Zul'jin supports Garrosh
"I spit on da horde!"

[Chikt]

"I spit on da horde!"

Go take a look at his big speech at the Troll starting zone. Basic gist of it is him thinking back on his conversation with Thrall and how the Trolls will stay with the Horde out of respect for Thrall.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Zul'jin =/= Vol'jin.

[Chikt]

Zul'jin =/= Vol'jin.

You're right. I originally got the names mixed up. That's my bad.

[Grayslin]

Yea, I was just making a joke at your expense >.<

[Chikt]

Yea, I was just making a joke at your expense >.<

This is why nobody likes you! D: