Aleria tangent

[Vyn]

Thrall gets rescued in the Goblin Starter quest after SI:7 kidnaps him (Lawl, gj Warchief), and then he says he has "More work to do" and leaves after you go to give your "Hi I'm in the Horde now because Thrall said so" letter to Garrosh.

If it's one thing Blizzard WONT do, it's kill Thrall.

Thrall dies when you fight Deathwing.

His noble sacrifice allows you to turn the tide against the elemental army.

[Alekander]

Thrall dies when you fight Deathwing.

His noble sacrifice allows you to turn the tide against the elemental army.

Prove it.

You're saying a major Lore character whose survival might enable a future peace between the Alliance and Horde dies.. that's pretty big I'm going to need more elaboration and sources.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Prove it.

You're saying a major Lore character whose survival might enable a future peace between the Alliance and Horde dies.. that's pretty big I'm going to need more elaboration and sources.

Enable a future peace? Thrall's extraordinary weakness in restraining his subordinates is the primary reason why the world is marching to war.

[Alekander]

Thrall would have enabled a future peace had it not been Varian's extraordinary weakness in restraining his temper and that is the primary reason why the world is marching to war.

Fixed.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

First: "fixed" only works when you're switching one or two words.

Second: Varian would never have had reason to be in the Undercity if not for the Horde's failure to police the Royal Apothecary Society. Sylvannas answers to the Warchief, which makes the Warchief responsible for her errors, including that of not watching the Royal Apothecary Society.

Edit: I just realized that this is partially unfair. Sylvannas cannot be held responsible for the rebellion which produced the Wrathgate incident, however, she can be held responsible for the existence and prime directive of the RAS, as well as its development of the new plague, which Garrosh sees fit to bar from use.

Third: The United States declared war on Japan, but that doesn't mean that they started the confict. Varian declared war on the Horde, but that doesn't mean that he started the conflict. In both cases, flared tempers were certainly called for.

[Jeedup]

Aleria, the same can be said about the Alliance being the cause of hostile atmospheres, as their 'ignorance' and 'bigotry' towards the Horde races, and some blatant disregard for their territories (see: NOT ASHENVALE), as well as political scheming to distort their power and authority.

[Chikt]

You're all making a lot of assumptions.

And throwing around assumption and opinion as fact.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Aleria, the same can be said about the Alliance being the cause of hostile atmospheres, as their 'ignorance' and 'bigotry' towards the Horde races, and some blatant disregard for their territories (see: NOT ASHENVALE), as well as political scheming to distort their power and authority.

First, you're making a common mistake. Claiming that the other person believes that their faction is the epitome of all good things and that it can do no wrong (which this argument implies) is a straw man fallacy.

On the subject of 'ignorance' and 'bigotry', most of it stems from the actions of two deceased, and largely disowned men who are not representative of the current Alliance. The rest of it is matched by an equal feeling from the Horde.

You are correct that the Alliance shows blatant disregard for Horde territory, (I'm assuming you're talking about Dwarves in the Barrens and Mulgore, as well as Night Elves in Quel'thalas) but the Horde still takes the cake in this category. We have no battlegrounds revolving around Alliance invasions of Horde territory, (Bear in mind, AV is technically Stormpike land) yet we have two revolving around Horde invasions of Alliance lands.

[Raynell]

Assuming makes an ass of you and me, as the saying goes.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Assuming makes an ass of you and me, as the saying goes.

Have you read An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding by David Hume?

Edit: If you haven't, the jist of the argument is that unless you're talking about mathematics, most, if not all of our knowledge is derived from experience and observation, and from those experiences, we infer the future must be like the past. (i.e. The sun has risen everyday, therefore it will rise tomorrow) However, there really is no reason to believe this because we lack a necessary connection.

My point is that everything is an assumption, and you can use "you're making assumptions" against anything and it would certainly be valid. Unfortunately however, unless you're specific about what I am assuming and why it is unreasonable, the argument holds no more weight against my point than "you're using words".

[Alekander]

Thrall dies when you fight Deathwing.

His noble sacrifice allows you to turn the tide against the elemental army.

Then I am going to assume this is an assumption.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Then I am going to assume this is an assumption.

I'm guessing that it was a joke.

[Alekander]

I'm guessing that it was a joke.

.. I can't help it .. Thrall is my favorite character in the entire Warcraft universe. I make no secrets of how attacking Thrall is a surefire way to bait and troll me.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

.. I can't help it .. Thrall is my favorite character in the entire Warcraft universe. I make no secrets of how attacking Thrall is a surefire way to bait and troll me.

Point noted, but in all seriousness, I'm more dissapointed than mad at Thrall. In Warcraft III, he didn't accept insubordination, he understood what had to be done, and he did it. That is the reason why he was the Warchief, and that is what made him great. In World of Warcraft, however, he turns into a weak and vacillating figure, and I'm not happy about that, or the results that it's had.

[Alekander]

Point noted, but in all seriousness, I'm more dissapointed than mad at Thrall. In Warcraft III, he didn't accept insubordination, he understood what had to be done, and he did it. That is the reason why he was the Warchief, and that is what made him great. In World of Warcraft, however, he turns into a weak and vacillating figure, and I'm not happy about that, or the results that it's had.

You and me need to become high up Blizzard execs in charge of approving new lore and story right next to Metzen. And we can bring Enheilras.. I guess.

[Chikt]

You are correct that the Alliance shows blatant disregard for Horde territory, (I'm assuming you're talking about Dwarves in the Barrens and Mulgore, as well as Night Elves in Quel'thalas) but the Horde still takes the cake in this category. We have no battlegrounds revolving around Alliance invasions of Horde territory, (Bear in mind, AV is technically Stormpike land) yet we have two revolving around Horde invasions of Alliance lands.

Not from the Horde point of view it's not an invasion.

See, that's the thing about battlegrounds. It's not one side attacking and the other defending. Both sides are attacking. You're assuming the Horde attacked first.

And if we want to go down the route of "well this is our land and we were here first", then the Horde existing in Kalimdor was an invasion of Night Elven land a long time ago.

[SgtSlaughter]

First: "fixed" only works when you're switching one or two words.

Second: Varian would never have had reason to be in the Undercity if not for the Horde's failure to police the Royal Apothecary Society. Sylvannas answers to the Warchief, which makes the Warchief responsible for her errors, including that of not watching the Royal Apothecary Society.

Edit: I just realized that this is partially unfair. Sylvannas cannot be held responsible for the rebellion which produced the Wrathgate incident, however, she can be held responsible for the existence and prime directive of the RAS, as well as its development of the new plague, which Garrosh sees fit to bar from use.


Sylvanas only says she answers to thrall, sylvanas only really answers to sylvanas.

and everybody invaded troll/aqir land.
Plus, the night elves don't really live in the barrens/durotar/1k needles/most of southern kalimdor with the exceptions of feralas, nijel's post, and the semi-ruined shitpile in silithus, so at least there they didn't really invade that much.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Sylvanas only says she answers to thrall, sylvanas only really answers to sylvanas.

Even so, Thrall is the Warchief of the Horde, and at any time he can decide to condemn or sanction the actions of the Forsaken, up to and including ending that Alliance. He has done no such thing.


Plus, the night elves don't really live in the barrens/durotar/1k needles/most of southern kalimdor with the exceptions of feralas, nijel's post, and the semi-ruined shitpile in silithus, so at least there they didn't really invade that much.

I noticed that you ignored the Warsong Clan's presence in Ashenvale, which is what I was talking about in the first place.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Not from the Horde point of view it's not an invasion.

See, that's the thing about battlegrounds. It's not one side attacking and the other defending. Both sides are attacking. You're assuming the Horde attacked first.

I believe that they are responsible for it. Grom's reaction to the night elven patrol can be characterized, if I may steal an argument, as beating someone up after they bump into you on the street. However, Grom's actions in Ashenvale were erased quickly when he was sent south to attack Thrall, which renders the Grom part of this discussion irrelevant (Sorry Grom).

Thrall then re-entered the forest, presumably with the knowledge of the Night Elves. He too failed to negociate, and instead, he tried the same thing that Grom did... with much different results. Then, after the war, Thrall either did not withdraw the Warsong Clan from the forest, or sent them back in. In either case, the orcs betrayed a neighbor who was an ally at the time, delivering them firmly into the hands of the Alliance.

This is the reason why I hold the Horde responsible for their actions, compounded with escalations, including the introduction of the Forsaken into the forest, and the establishment of the Zoram'gar outpost and Bethran's Haunt.


And if we want to go down the route of "well this is our land and we were here first", then the Horde existing in Kalimdor was an invasion of Night Elven land a long time ago.

I wouldn't go that far. After the Third War, the truce made between the three powers recognized Durotar as its own nation, which is why we all got so angry at Admiral Proudmoore.

Edit: One last note. Before this goes exactly the way the previous thread did, can we add a tag or something to indicate that this was taken from a different thread?

2nd Edit:
You and me need to become high up Blizzard execs in charge of approving new lore and story right next to Metzen. And we can bring Enheilras.. I guess.

I admit that it's easy to critique, but it's not easy to make up something better. For example, I believe that the orcish adventure in Ashenvale makes no sense, because it would be more economically viable to harvest from Silverpine Forest or the Tirisfal Glades. (If anyone disagrees, I have a long, drawn out rebuttal sitting in the character journals under my most recent addition to Aleria's Opinion Column. You may either respond, in character, there, or if you respond here, I'll just copy-paste it here.) However, if that was written in, the political landscape would drift intolerably far way from "Warcraft", and I can't think of a solution which would leave Night Elf-Orc tensions as high as Ashenvale does.

[Chikt]

I believe that they are responsible for it. Grom's reaction to the night elven patrol can be characterized, if I may steal an argument, as beating someone up after they bump into you on the street. However, Grom's actions in Ashenvale were erased quickly when he was sent south to attack Thrall, which renders the Grom part of this discussion irrelevant (Sorry Grom).

Thrall then re-entered the forest, presumably with the knowledge of the Night Elves. He too failed to negociate, and instead, he tried the same thing that Grom did... with much different results. Then, after the war, Thrall either did not withdraw the Warsong Clan from the forest, or sent them back in. In either case, that's simply a betrayal of what was then an ally at the time.

This is the reason why I hold the Horde responsible for their actions, compounded with escalations, including the introduction of the Forsaken into the forest, and the establishment of the Zoram'gar outpost and Bethran's Haunt.


Thrall then re-entered the forest, presumably with the knowledge of the Night Elves. He too failed to negociate, and instead, he tried the same thing that Grom did... with much different results. Then, after the war, Thrall either did not withdraw the Warsong Clan from the forest, or sent them back in. In either case, that's simply a betrayal of what was then an ally at the time.


presumably

Which is the problem with your argument.

You don't know. You're treating your personal opinion as fact with no real basis but the assumptions we can make from the in-game material. If the Horde are taking the fight to the Alliance, only a minimum handful of quests and in-game material reflects that Horde side.


I wouldn't go that far. After the Third War, the truce made between the three powers recognized Durotar as its own nation, which is why we all got so angry at Admiral Proudmoore.

But that's assuming the truce said "we won't invade each others land" and not just "we won't kill each other".

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Which is the problem with your argument.

You don't know. You're treating your personal opinion as fact with no real basis but the assumptions we can make from the in-game material. If the Horde are taking the fight to the Alliance, only a minimum handful of quests and in-game material reflects that Horde side.



You're referencing one of two opportunities that Thrall had to make peace with the Night Elves. While it is possible to cast doubt upon this point, I doubt that the Warsong Clan would have kept their encounter with the Night Elves silent.

You have, however, completely ignored the second opportunity, the one following the Third War.


But that's assuming the truce said "we won't invade each others land" and not just "we won't kill each other".

Again, I must cast doubt upon your doubt, in that I doubt that these nations, which to this day attempt to enforce borders (particularily Durotar and the Night Elves) would have not agreed not to invade each others' land.

[Chikt]

You're referencing one of two opportunities that Thrall had to make peace with the Night Elves. While it is possible to cast doubt upon this point, I doubt that the Warsong Clan would have kept their encounter with the Night Elves silent.

You have, however, completely ignored the second point.

That's assuming that the Night Elves would even want to make peace with the Horde. I mean, they've been iffy enough about Tauren Druids, let alone bloodthirsty Orcs.

Don't forget. The Night Elves had equal opportunity to make peace with the Horde when they met them.


Again, I must cast doubt upon your doubt, in that I doubt that these nations, which to this day attempt to enforce borders (particularily Durotar and the Night Elves) would have not agreed not to invade each others' land.

Well, that's even assuming that there were peace talks. Or anything more to the truce than "I won't kill you while we deal with this guy trying to hump our tree".

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

That's assuming that the Night Elves would even want to make peace with the Horde. I mean, they've been iffy enough about Tauren Druids, let alone bloodthirsty Orcs.

Don't forget. The Night Elves had equal opportunity to make peace with the Horde when they met them.

When they first met them, its important to note that the orcs were mistaken for demons (Which is understandable, given that the Sentinels had been fighting off Satyr for thousands of years prior to that). In fact, in the mission where you kill him, Cenarius repeatedly refers to the orcs as "demon spawned wretches".

As far as the Tauren and the Orcs go, following the Third War there was peace between the Night Elves and the Horde, and the Elves were welcoming the Tauren into the Cenarion Circle. The only way that the Horde can not be responsible for what is going on in Ashenvale is if the Night Elves attempted to invade Horde lands, and that the Horde merely moved in to retaliate. However, no evidence exists to even suggest that.


Well, that's even assuming that there were peace talks. Or anything more to the truce than "I won't kill you while we deal with this guy trying to hump our tree".

It was the formation of an alliance. An alliance is betrayed when (among other possible stimuli) a member nation infringes upon the sovereignty of another, which is precisely what Durotar did.

[Ackley]

Well, from my semi-innocent bystander position, Aleria's got the edge here.


That's assuming that the Night Elves would even want to make peace with the Horde. I mean, they've been iffy enough about Tauren Druids, let alone bloodthirsty Orcs.

Don't forget. The Night Elves had equal opportunity to make peace with the Horde when they met them.

A lot of her rebuttals are based on the fact you give facts, not evidence to the facts.


Not from the Horde point of view it's not an invasion.

See, that's the thing about battlegrounds. It's not one side attacking and the other defending. Both sides are attacking. You're assuming the Horde attacked first.

And if we want to go down the route of "well this is our land and we were here first", then the Horde existing in Kalimdor was an invasion of Night Elven land a long time ago.

Trolls owned pretty much all of Kalimdor before the Night Elves showed up, when the Night Elf empire started, it wiped out the Troll's who were almost beaten to oblivion before the Burning Legion decimated the Night Elves.

By this logic, the Night Elves invaded first, but the twin empires (Amani, and Gurubashi) did not declare allegiance to the New horde.

But, their presence pretty much means the Night Elves did not fully control Kalimdor thus leaving a space open for the Orcs to settle.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

At this point, the Gurubashi and the Amani are enemies of everyone. The Zandalar don't like the Gurubashi because they're trying to bring back the Soulflayer, and the Amani don't even like the Horde anymore.

But everyone (except Garrosh) loves the Darkspears. :)

[Okhu]

What does this have to do with Cataclysm?

[Ackley]

So, Darkspears were apparently "hidden away" on the Echo Isles where they were discovered by Thrall during all that Murloc crap. But that means they had been there for either

A: Just a really long time -or-

B: Before the Night Elves came to Kalimdor

Either way, the horde do have some claim to southern Kalimdor

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

First, to answer Okhu's question. It really doesn't. A mod put it here after it had sprung up in the screenshots thread. However, because Ashenvale is one of the main focal points of war between the Alliance and the Horde during the Cataclysm, it is somewhat relevant.


So, Darkspears were apparently "hidden away" on the Echo Isles where they were discovered by Thrall during all that Murloc crap. But that means they had been there for either

A: Just a really long time -or-

B: Before the Night Elves came to Kalimdor

Either way, the horde do have some claim to southern Kalimdor

No, this isn't true. There is a custom campaign in WCIII the Frozen Throne which explains how the Darkspears became a part of the Horde. They were on an island near the Maelstrom, chased there by larger, stronger tribes. They were also followed by humans (who you get to fight). The Horde also got to fight a large tribe of murlocs who attempt to take them all captive in hopes of sacrificing them to a sea witch (if I remember correctly).

This takes place between the tutorial and the Horde campaign in Reign of Chaos, chronologically.

Edit: Just checked it. "Exodus of the Horde". It's a custom campaign which you'll find in "The Frozen Throne", which lists Blizzard Entertainment as its author.

[SgtSlaughter]

I noticed that you ignored the Warsong Clan's presence in Ashenvale, which is what I was talking about in the first place.

well yeah, cuz we all know your stance on that, but they only people they really invaded in the other parts (which forms the majority of their "empire") were centaurs, and that was to help out the friendly minotaurs who being all nice and whathaveyou.
however, what the hell were the tauren doing for the first 100000000000 years while everybody ran rampant over kalimdor? Did they just stay shut up in mulgore?
Where the hell did those assholes even come from?

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

well yeah, cuz we all know your stance on that, but they only people they really invaded in the other parts (which forms the majority of their "empire") were centaurs, and that was to help out the friendly minotaurs who being all nice and whathaveyou.
however, what the hell were the tauren doing for the first 100000000000 years while everybody ran rampant over kalimdor? Did they just stay shut up in mulgore?
Where the hell did those assholes even come from?

My point is that you're making a straw man argument if you claim that I'm talking about the majority of the Horde's territory. My concern involves Ashenvale and Arathi. As far as the Barrens and Durotar go, the Centaur and the Quillboar were rather evil, hunting down the Tauren for no good reason. I have no reason to fault the Horde for meting out justice in that regard, or for bringing (relative) peace to the lands that they chose to settle in.

I also noticed that you quoted "empire". Why did you do that?

[Vyn]

What... what have I done?

I was COMPLETELY KIDDING when I said Thrall dies.

[SgtSlaughter]

My point is that you're making a straw man argument if you claim that I'm talking about the majority of the Horde's territory. My concern involves Ashenvale and Arathi. As far as the Barrens and Durotar go, the Centaur and the Quillboar were rather evil, hunting down the Tauren for no good reason. I have no reason to fault the Horde for meting out justice in that regard, or for bringing (relative) peace to the lands that they chose to settle in.

I also noticed that you quoted "empire". Why did you do that?

I am a straw/wicker man, they are the only arguments I can make.
I notice you are adept in seeking them out and attempting to burn them in effigy.

The undead probably wouldn't take too kindly to orcs choppin' down they trees, and since they're already on relatively good terms with 'em, and they already have some nice logging settlements in ashenvale, doesn't quite seem worth it to pull up and head to a different continent, where they would then haveta transport all that goddamn lumber back. Besides, it would appear as though the only night elf who's REALLY trying to boot them out of ashenvale is you.

Also, can't have an empire without and emperor.
I spose it's more like a warchiefdom.

Warchieftanistan.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I am a straw/wicker man, they are the only arguments I can make.
I notice you are adept in seeking them out and attempting to burn them in effigy.

If I didn't know any better I'd say that statement is a self-effigy.


The undead probably wouldn't take too kindly to orcs choppin' down they trees, and since they're already on relatively good terms with 'em, and they already have some nice logging settlements in ashenvale, doesn't quite seem worth it to pull up and head to a different continent, where they would then haveta transport all that goddamn lumber back.

Only if the Undead object, which I don't think that they will. If they harvest lumber to sell to the orcs, they have a nice little economic resource that they can take advantage of.

And... because this argument was coming: copy-pasted!


There is no doubt that every nation must acquire resources including lumber. The orcs however, display recklessness and imprudence which leave students of commerce scratching their heads. To better understand this, I will assume that I am the proprietor of a logging camp located in Eastern Ashenvale. I will also assume the following figures (these figures are arbitrary, but meaningless in their quantity. They merely exist to serve a point):



Land: 30,000-00-00 (150,000 board feet)
Lumber Mill: 7,500-00-00 (Estimated Useful Life: 30 years)
Goblin Shredders (2): 500-00-00 each (Estimated Useful Life: 5 years)
Lumber Cart and Kodo: 250-00-00 (Estimated Useful Life: 10 years)
((A Night Elf running a lumber camp in Ashenvale: Priceless.))


Sale price for one board foot: 50 silver
-Direct Materials: 20 silver
-Labor per board foot: 10 silver
-Fuel per board foot: 5 silver
-(Cost of Goods Sold: 35 silver)
Gross Profit per board foot: 15 silver

If straight-line depreciation is used, my total depreciation expense for one year will be 475 gold pieces. I hope to secure a profit of 50 gold pieces, so in order to do that, I must harvest 3,500 board feet per year. I will also assume that I am capable of harvesting as much as I require.


Projected Income Statement for Year 1
Revenue: 1750-00-00
-Cost of Goods Sold: 1225-00-00
-Accumulated Depreciation: 475-00-00
Net Income: 50-00-00

Note: Profit to revenue ratio of 2.86%

Because I am in Ashenvale however, my people are not going to take lightly to this incoursion. Let's assume for example, that they steal 1,500 board feet of processed lumber. This first subtracts 750-00-00 from my revenue, and diverts 525-00-00 to shortage due to theft. At this point, if I do nothing, I will incur a loss of 175-00-00, therefore, in order to achieve the same profit of 50-00-00, I must harvest 5,000 more board feet, amounting to more than twice as much as I would normally harvest.


Projected Income Statement for Year 1, accounting for theft.
Revenue: 3500-00-00
-Cost of Goods Sold: 2450-00-00
-Accumulated Depreciation: 475-00-00
-Shortage due to theft: 525-00-00
Net Income: 50-00-00

Note: Profit to revenue ratio of 1.43%

So... after this theft amounting to 42.88% of my annual harvest, I must increase my production by 142.86% just to recieve the same net benefit of the resources that I consume, in other words, I must employ more laborers, burn more fuel, and cut down more trees for the same net benefit that I enjoyed before.

However, given the activities in Ashenvale, I would be no less than blessed to only incur that expense. Let us assume also that the Kal'dorei raid my lumber camp, destroying one shredder, parts of my fuel stores, some of my equipment, and killing some of my laborers. I require both shredders, and the fuel to power them, as well as extra equipment, so I immediately repurchase these items, but in the meantime, I have incurred a loss of 500-00-00 for the shredder alone, and 25-00-00 from the fuel, equipment, and repairs needed to my existing infrastructure, while my depreciation remains unaffected. This time, in addition to the 5000 additional board feet needed to cover the theft, I require 3500 more board feet to make up this loss:


Projected Income Statement accounting for theft and the destruction of a shredder.
Revenue: 5250-00-00
-Cost of Goods Sold: 3675-00-00
-Accumulated Depreciation: 475-00-00
-Shortage due to theft: 525-00-00
-Extraordinary Loss: 525-00-00
Net Income: 50-00-00

Note: Income to revenue ratio is 0.95%
Further Note: In terms of Gold, do not be confused, I have spent 525-00-00 that I would otherwise not have had to spend.

Finally, to finish the year, one fateful night after a shipment of lumber is delivered to market, several little burning arrows, probably produced at no higher than a resource cost of a gold piece tear into my lumber mill, and burns it to cinders. One year of it was depreciated, but 29 years, amounting to 7250-00-00 is lost. The next year I rebuild the mill, the same amount of lumber is stolen, another raid makes me suffer the same effects, plus an added 25-00-00,and I attempt to make up the 7250-00-00 loss that year as well. In order to do so, I must harvest a total of 59,000 board feet.


Projected Income Statement, Year Two (With adjustments)
Revenue: 30500-00-00
-Cost of Goods Sold: 20650-00-00
-Accumulated Depreciaton: 475-00-00
-Shortage due to to Theft: 525-00-00
-Extraordinary Loss: 550-00-00
Net Income: 7300-00-00
-Less: Make up for lost lumber mill: 7250-00-00
-Income after fund to make up for lost lumber mill: 50-00-00
Note: Ratio of Income after fund to make up for lost lumber mill to Revenue: 0.16%

Meanwhile, the logger in Silverpine forest has a logging operation of the exact same size as mine, and yet, they are not burdened with these unreasonable expenses. As an employer of stock, in respect to the cold truth of the ledger, I should be incensed to relocate my operations to Silverpine forest. I assert further that upon this point, the Horde would also benefit from such a relocation. Critics of this theory contend first that the Horde would incur more expenses for transportation, but neglect that an expansive zepplin fleet already exists. The only added cost would be the added fuel costs needed to transport such cargo, and the necessary employment of loading personell. Others insist that blighted trees are unacceptable for use in construction, whilst ignoring the scourge and the forsaken's effective use of this same "useless" wood. These are only the more common of objections, of which I could devote several pages of discussion to, but instead, let us reveal this sophistry for what it is: a conglomerate of excuses which attempt to cement a conclusion that the orcs have no other choice but to continue to occupy lands which the Night Elves have lived in for thousands of years.



Besides, it would appear as though the only night elf who's REALLY trying to boot them out of ashenvale is you.

Erm... what?

[Alekander]

.. actually the Orcs already began their lumber operations before they ever formed an alliance with the Forsaken. So Silverpine is incorrect. Ask Raz. Malfurion probably would have been okay with the Orcs getting.. oh half of Ashenvale anyway given that they helped save the world and all. Which is really what this all goes back to. The alliance between Orcs and Night Elves never would have been severed if

A.) Malfurion stuck around and brought concerns to Thrall

B.) Thrall would have listened to reason over...

C.) Staghelm being a doucher.

[Ackley]

I believe our lovable sergeant here is working 90-95% off of what he see's in game.

Which also confuses me, there are whole quests dedicated to killing off the horde in the Warsong Lumber Camp, the Night Elves do not take kindly to the efforts there at all.


The undead probably wouldn't take too kindly to orcs choppin' down they trees, and since they're already on relatively good terms with 'em, and they already have some nice logging settlements in ashenvale, doesn't quite seem worth it to pull up and head to a different continent, where they would then haveta transport all that goddamn lumber back. Besides, it would appear as though the only night elf who's REALLY trying to boot them out of ashenvale is you.

A: I don't think the undead care about tree's in the least, they would be angry purely because they would feel that the Orc's are overstepping their boundaries. And, wouldn't it be better to have a logging settlement where there isn't an Alliance settlement nearby that could actively attack it?

[Jeedup]

WARNING! HORRIBLY LONG POST! READ AT YOUR DISPLEASURE!

Aleria, the leaders I've mentioned, are not deceased. I could also use your own reasons on my stance, that you're view of the Orcs being the 'cause' (I may be wording that incorrectly, it's been a while since I've read your stance on the Ashenvale Issue), of aggression towards the Night Elves as being the sole cause from a single, now DEAD, Orc. Grom Hellscream. He's dead, so would this then, by your logic, refute the current aggression towards the Orcs? That’s where your stance kind of made me confused.

The leaders I mentioned are Varian Wyrnn (who has obvious issues with the Orcs, Thrall in particular at times, one could argue racist views on them but he's also showed respect, ie: Saurfang and his dead son), Muradin Bronzebeard (another old-school hero who has obvious, and in some cases well deserved, hate of trolls, though admittedly, Frost Trolls. He's also not a huge fan of Orcs). I could even argue, Rohans wife, Vereesa Windrunner, is not too happy with Horde races in Dalaran, as she’s another old-schooler with hate towards trolls, and orcs, for their campaign against Silvermoon during the Second War.

Your 'straw man fallacy' argument is true, and holds weight. HOWEVER, you're also under this rather itchy mans boot yourself. But, there is one difference.

While the Horde has multiple races in it, two of which, being under 'alliance' but still, control, of the Horde, and its leader, the Warchief, they are an unified power/nation/people/whathaveyou. The Alliance, is not. Ignore the game mechanics for a moment, as even Blizzard has stated the nations under the Alliance are still separate, governed within themselves, but still work together for issues. With the addition of Varian Wyrnn into the political sphere (and the game), they made him the military leader of the Alliance, but NOT its ruler. Now, you really do have to take that into consideration. SO, as you've said, the Orcs have had chances to make peace with the Night Elves, but that would be JUST the Night Elves. Sure, now should that happen, they could easily help warm up the atmosphere into a true peace, but it would still be up to the multiple, and individual leaders to decide what to do.

And, to offer a sideline to my own argument above, lets look at the Wrathgate incident. A mutual military operation with both the Horde, and the Alliance, with two leaders on each side, that were loved and respect by their people, and the opposing forces. During this event, they are ambushed, by the FORSAKEN (see: Not Horde), and then burned to a crisp by the Red Dragonflight. Word spreads, and soon, people know that The Forsaken have done something to disrupt what little peace there was. Rumors spread farther, that they had been planning this all alone. If you look at the quests (though this is just as a game mechanics side, not the fictional argument), they do start to separate Horde, from the Forsaken. But, its still ultimately, the Horde that acts.

Now, as mentioned many times: The Forsaken ARE Horde, but they are not a PART of the Horde. This is completely legitimate, though headache inducing. Along with the Blood Elves, they are members of the Horde, under protection, and in some cases, government, and will answer to its representatives. In the cause of the Forsaken, its mostly for protection. The threat of the Scourge (pre-Wrath of the Lich King), left a very poor climate for newly freed Forsaken to live freely. They were still quite vulnerable and weak as a collective people, the Alliance very well could have wiped them out if not for the Horde, and more specifically, Carine Bloodhoof sympathies, that allowed them to survive, and thrive. Now, when this incident happened, its obvious that this sort of an arrangement would not work for long, as both the Alliance, and The Horde wanted answers for what happened. Eventually, justice is met, and the 'real' perpetrator of the crime was brought to justice. Sure, we can argue till the quillboars come home about if it was the Queen that made this possible, or other powers, either way, the power base of the Forsaken is now almost as weak as it was previously. To be frank, the Horde (the Warchief, his overseers, and probably Carine), no longer trust them, and they're being watched. It's quite possible (and this is assumption, as I've not been able to find anything official), that they're no longer allied with The Horde, and have now been 'forcibly' included into the Horde fully.

So back to my original point of the political differences of the Horde and Alliance, and with the example above. Now, that SHOULD have been the most opportune moment for the Alliance to declare war, and they almost did. Even though they were allied, they were still to the eyes of the Alliance, Horde. Now, say for a completely CRAZY example (and I honestly struggled to find one), the Draenaei show up, with a fresh new Naaru, to wipe out the taint of the undead at Wrathgate, use an amazing Holy Light weapon, but unfortunately, kills everyone as well.

The Horde are pissed.
The Alliance is pissed.
The Horde declare war....

...on the Draenaei.

That’s it really, and because they know, that, DUH, its an ALLIANCE, they could not legitimately declare war on the whole. Sure, in that form of a political climate, the other races would get involved, but the main aggressors would be the only ones to be rightfully declared war on.

Though that example was again, REALLY stretched, I feel its a fair one.

Now, onto the Battlegrounds.

Your right, they mostly consist of the Horde being the 'aggressors', but you have to remember, its just a game mechanic. And both sides, again, in the game mechanic, will state they're fighting/defending for their lives/resources/homes/grandma's apple pie. Arathi Basin is about territory and resources, and, if you look down to it, between and ESTABLISHED government (The Forsaken), and a band of misplaced and disowned humans from a now destroyed kingdom (Stromgarde). Its abit unclear on their part in the Alliance, or even if they are a part, outside of game mechanics. I'd personally say they are, as they'd want to take advantage of the other power base of the larger and intact human kingdoms. Warsong Gulch is well, more your territory, but I would agree, the Horde are 'in the wrong' in that stance, but again, game mechanic. Alterac Valley is abit more clouded in a murky haze of grey. If I'm remembering right (and people are free to correct me with cited examples), the dwarves had abandoned the land the Frostwolves had taken up residence in, for a few centuries. So in common dwarven ways, someone somewhere probably found some note about the place, got a team of explorers, and found Orcs instead. The clan had been settled there since the Orcs first came over during the First war, what, 30-40 years? I think that’s long enough to consider that now their territory, or atleast, their home. Squatters rights is a good example. Sure, both races are remarkably territorial, but neither one is right, or wrong, in that conflict.

Now, your bring up good examples of Alliance taking Horde territory, but saying Horde take the cake, but sister, the Alliance, they took the castle.

One Word.

Outland.

That is, most definitely and completely, Horde territory. Its the orcs ancestral homeland. Now, you could say that the orcs invaded Azeroth, so the Alliance just responded, but that’s rather silly schoolyard logic, or better yet, one wrong, doesn't make a right. Not only does the Alliance have a strong presence there, and in some cases, INCREDIBLY UNFOUNDED (see:Night Elf and Gnomish strongholds in Blade's Edge), they also have several very well known, and VERY anti-horde leaders they rediscovered to still be alive. Danath Trollbane (though my favorite hero from WarCraft 2), is a KNOWN hater of any and all Trolls, and is in command of the main and first Alliance fortress in Hellfire.

Now, while it is ancestral land of the Orcs (and so then, the Horde), it also is the home of a surrogate species who lived there for a while, but still, is not their birthright. The Draenei, while old enemies of the Horde, give a good opportunity for peace with the Horde from their history of shared land (though, eventually bloodied), and their more forgiving leader, Velen.

I'm going to stop here, as I feel I could go on, and realize my points are getting blurry only due to the time of it being 3am. But still, pick up stuff, and I'll go on. I love discussions like these, when people bother to have them, not not point fingers of making assumptions, when its still a fictional universe, and if you can't atleast bother to take part in a discussion, then don't bother at all.

[Hifazat]

This is going to be long but I for one agree with Aleria. And I am going to touch upon two issues. Varian, Orcs in Ashenvale and the legitmacy of the horde in Azeroth.

1. Varian. Take a US Military Commander in Afghanistan or Iraq. He was on a peace mission, say meeting with Sunni Militants or the Taliban where he is kidnapped by the enemy, knocked on the head loses his memory and then is forced to fight for his life in a very bad Van Dam movie style Gladiator ring. Would that solider be considered a racist for his actions oh hating the very same people that forced to fight for his life every day for their pleasure and amusement?

More importantly Varian saw his father killed by an Orc. Additionally while Thrall leads the horde, the horde follows the same customs and traditions that lead to the razing of Stormwind the first time and the revere leaders that have killed Alliance men, women and children by choice.

Its like saying hey we believe in peace but Hitler that guy is our hero. I do not want to start a political debate but the idea is provide the view point that Varian unlike the normal and idiotic characterization of a racist, he is in fact a very realistic character.

2. Legitimacy of the horde in Azeroth. The orcs are the only ones who are not native to Azeroth. But they are also genociders on the scale never seen before in Azeroth. They destroyed countless human cities, ruined 4 of the 7 kingdoms and easily murdered millions of people. By Blizzards own words on the website Orcs did have free will. The Trolls joined them in the craziness to exact vengeance on the Humans who destroyed their civilization.

Now coming to Kalimdor. You can't enter someone else's home, walking into their garden and start whacking down whatever you wish. That is what the Orcs did in Kalimdor. It isn't their land. The land:

Azshara
Ashenvale
Feralas
Desolace
Felwood
Darkshore

Those are all elven lands. Historically and presently.Well until Cataclysm. Then stuff changes. Anyway you just can't walk into the area and cut down trees, kill a demigod that is revered to the enemy and say "hey we are the victims."

[Crushem]

I heard Deathwing kills Dumbledore.

[Anthek]

And then the Alliance makes the first move and invades the Barrens.

[Raziel]

This is going to be long but I for one agree with Aleria. And I am going to touch upon two issues. Varian, Orcs in Ashenvale and the legitmacy of the horde in Azeroth.

1. Varian. Take a US Military Commander in Afghanistan or Iraq. He was on a peace mission, say meeting with Sunni Militants or the Taliban where he is kidnapped by the enemy, knocked on the head loses his memory and then is forced to fight for his life in a very bad Van Dam movie style Gladiator ring. Would that solider be considered a racist for his actions oh hating the very same people that forced to fight for his life every day for their pleasure and amusement?

More importantly Varian saw his father killed by an Orc. Additionally while Thrall leads the horde, the horde follows the same customs and traditions that lead to the razing of Stormwind the first time and the revere leaders that have killed Alliance men, women and children by choice.

Its like saying hey we believe in peace but Hitler that guy is our hero. I do not want to start a political debate but the idea is provide the view point that Varian unlike the normal and idiotic characterization of a racist, he is in fact a very realistic character.

2. Legitimacy of the horde in Azeroth. The orcs are the only ones who are not native to Azeroth. But they are also genociders on the scale never seen before in Azeroth. They destroyed countless human cities, ruined 4 of the 7 kingdoms and easily murdered millions of people. By Blizzards own words on the website Orcs did have free will. The Trolls joined them in the craziness to exact vengeance on the Humans who destroyed their civilization.

Now coming to Kalimdor. You can't enter someone else's home, walking into their garden and start whacking down whatever you wish. That is what the Orcs did in Kalimdor. It isn't their land. The land:

Azshara
Ashenvale
Feralas
Desolace
Felwood
Darkshore

Those are all elven lands. Historically and presently.Well until Cataclysm. Then stuff changes. Anyway you just can't walk into the area and cut down trees, kill a demigod that is revered to the enemy and say "hey we are the victims."

Those lands are Tauren Lands

Those Lands are Troll Lands.

The Night Elves took them through conquest.

[SgtSlaughter]

in not varians defense....everybody saw their father killed by an orc

[Hifazat]

Actually if we look at the ancient Kalimdor, troll lands were south of the continent. Elven lands were in the North.

That is why you have Troll ruins in Azeroth but not in Kalimdor. Azshara was the center of Elven lands when the sundering happened.

Azshara, Winterspring and Ashenvale were all Elven lands originally. Only after the sundering did they expand i believe.

Troll lands were EPL, WPL and all the Blood Elf territory. Then there was everything south of Azshara.

The Tauren never entered Ashenvale or Azshara. They weren't even present in Azeroth.

Tauren lands were south of Ashenvale.

[Hifazat]

in not varians defense....everybody saw their father killed by an orc

So? How does that make the act any less vile? They have every right to hate those who have killed their family members in cold blood.

[Visararath]

So..I'm looking over all this, and I'd just like to say..."Forsaken R awesomest race, humans mean to us...invading our lands...humans b bad." See, I can do it too. Supporters gonna support their races and haters gonna hate not their races.

[Raziel]

Actually if we look at the ancient Kalimdor, troll lands were south of the continent. Elven lands were in the North.

That is why you have Troll ruins in Azeroth but not in Kalimdor. Azshara was the center of Elven lands when the sundering happened.

Azshara, Winterspring and Ashenvale were all Elven lands originally. Only after the sundering did they expand i believe.

Troll lands were EPL, WPL and all the Blood Elf territory. Then there was everything south of Azshara.

The Tauren never entered Ashenvale or Azshara. They weren't even present in Azeroth.

Tauren lands were south of Ashenvale.

Pangaea Hifazat. Think Pangaea.

[Hifazat]

That is my point Raziel but I guess I didn't make it clear. You have Night elves and Trolls in the Original Kalimdor. The Night Elves control the centre of this old continent. The Moonwell is located in Azshara, where the sundering occured.

If we look at the lore available, the trolls controlled all of the area north of the Thandol Span. When the Blood Elves came in they encroached on Troll Territory. That is why the Blood Elves made an alliance with the humans of Stromgarde and that caused the Troll Wars.

Then to the South you had the Gurubashi Empire. The North had the Amani and the South the Gurubashi. The Gurubashi empire cuts accross into tanaris and a 1000 Needles. It doesn't cut across into Feralas or Desolace. Shadowprey Village from what I can gather lore wise is a Horde settlement. Not an original Village.

Even in StoneTalon Mountains the Troll location is near the Barrens and not near the entrance from Ashenvale.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

WARNING! HORRIBLY LONG POST! READ AT YOUR DISPLEASURE!

Aleria, the leaders I've mentioned, are not deceased. I could also use your own reasons on my stance, that you're view of the Orcs being the 'cause' (I may be wording that incorrectly, it's been a while since I've read your stance on the Ashenvale Issue), of aggression towards the Night Elves as being the sole cause from a single, now DEAD, Orc. Grom Hellscream. He's dead, so would this then, by your logic, refute the current aggression towards the Orcs? That’s where your stance kind of made me confused.

You are misrepresenting my argument just a bit. Grom was acting without orders from Thrall, and later, under the influence of demon blood. When Thrall entered the forest, we effectively hit the "reset" button, and now see what Thrall does with the Night Elves. He could have negociated with them, but he decided to do the same thing that Grom did, with far different results. After the Third War we hit the reset button again, with the Orcs actually allied with the Night Elves. Once again, however, Thrall failed to respect the soveriegnty of his neighbors.

There is one more thing. When it comes to Grom, the Night Elves mistook the orcs for demons. Cenarius even refers to them as "demon spawned wretches" (before they drink the demon blood) as he's tearing up your bases on the other side of the river.


The leaders I mentioned are Varian Wyrnn (who has obvious issues with the Orcs, Thrall in particular at times, one could argue racist views on them but he's also showed respect, ie: Saurfang and his dead son), Muradin Bronzebeard (another old-school hero who has obvious, and in some cases well deserved, hate of trolls, though admittedly, Frost Trolls. He's also not a huge fan of Orcs). I could even argue, Rohans wife, Vereesa Windrunner, is not too happy with Horde races in Dalaran, as she’s another old-schooler with hate towards trolls, and orcs, for their campaign against Silvermoon during the Second War.

There's certainly no doubt, but the Horde is also guilty upon this charge.

And... Rhonin, not Rohan. :) Rohan doesn't like elves, remember?


While the Horde has multiple races in it, two of which, being under 'alliance' but still, control, of the Horde, and its leader, the Warchief, they are an unified power/nation/people/whathaveyou. The Alliance, is not. Ignore the game mechanics for a moment, as even Blizzard has stated the nations under the Alliance are still separate, governed within themselves, but still work together for issues. With the addition of Varian Wyrnn into the political sphere (and the game), they made him the military leader of the Alliance, but NOT its ruler. Now, you really do have to take that into consideration. SO, as you've said, the Orcs have had chances to make peace with the Night Elves, but that would be JUST the Night Elves. Sure, now should that happen, they could easily help warm up the atmosphere into a true peace, but it would still be up to the multiple, and individual leaders to decide what to do.

Bolded for emphasis.


And, to offer a sideline to my own argument above, lets look at the Wrathgate incident. A mutual military operation with both the Horde, and the Alliance, with two leaders on each side, that were loved and respect by their people, and the opposing forces. During this event, they are ambushed, by the FORSAKEN (see: Not Horde), and then burned to a crisp by the Red Dragonflight. Word spreads, and soon, people know that The Forsaken have done something to disrupt what little peace there was. Rumors spread farther, that they had been planning this all alone. If you look at the quests (though this is just as a game mechanics side, not the fictional argument), they do start to separate Horde, from the Forsaken. But, its still ultimately, the Horde that acts.

Now, as mentioned many times: The Forsaken ARE Horde, but they are not a PART of the Horde. This is completely legitimate, though headache inducing. Along with the Blood Elves, they are members of the Horde, under protection, and in some cases, government, and will answer to its representatives. In the cause of the Forsaken, its mostly for protection. The threat of the Scourge (pre-Wrath of the Lich King), left a very poor climate for newly freed Forsaken to live freely. They were still quite vulnerable and weak as a collective people, the Alliance very well could have wiped them out if not for the Horde, and more specifically, Carine Bloodhoof sympathies, that allowed them to survive, and thrive. Now, when this incident happened, its obvious that this sort of an arrangement would not work for long, as both the Alliance, and The Horde wanted answers for what happened. Eventually, justice is met, and the 'real' perpetrator of the crime was brought to justice. Sure, we can argue till the quillboars come home about if it was the Queen that made this possible, or other powers, either way, the power base of the Forsaken is now almost as weak as it was previously. To be frank, the Horde (the Warchief, his overseers, and probably Carine), no longer trust them, and they're being watched. It's quite possible (and this is assumption, as I've not been able to find anything official), that they're no longer allied with The Horde, and have now been 'forcibly' included into the Horde fully.

So back to my original point of the political differences of the Horde and Alliance, and with the example above. Now, that SHOULD have been the most opportune moment for the Alliance to declare war, and they almost did. Even though they were allied, they were still to the eyes of the Alliance, Horde. Now, say for a completely CRAZY example (and I honestly struggled to find one), the Draenaei show up, with a fresh new Naaru, to wipe out the taint of the undead at Wrathgate, use an amazing Holy Light weapon, but unfortunately, kills everyone as well.

The Horde are pissed.
The Alliance is pissed.
The Horde declare war....

...on the Draenaei.

That’s it really, and because they know, that, DUH, its an ALLIANCE, they could not legitimately declare war on the whole. Sure, in that form of a political climate, the other races would get involved, but the main aggressors would be the only ones to be rightfully declared war on.

Though that example was again, REALLY stretched, I feel its a fair one.

I'm going to address the last example. The Alliance is somewhat different than the Horde in that the Horde primarily has to answer to the Warchief, and to use just one short example, in Cata, Sylvannas tells Garrosh that she serves the Horde. The Alliance is just a tad different. It is what the word says, an Alliance of nations, but no one nation answers to another. It's not as centralized. However, if this horrible incident did happen, and the Draenei were giving off warning signs (as the Forsaken were) that they were going to commit this horrible act, then the rest of the Alliance should have recognized them.

I'm not criticizing the Horde's response to the Wrathgate either, that was actually heartening to see. I am criticizing their inability to stop trouble when it's been literally brewing in a Horde capital for years.


Now, onto the Battlegrounds.

Your right, they mostly consist of the Horde being the 'aggressors', but you have to remember, its just a game mechanic. And both sides, again, in the game mechanic, will state they're fighting/defending for their lives/resources/homes/grandma's apple pie. Arathi Basin is about territory and resources, and, if you look down to it, between and ESTABLISHED government (The Forsaken), and a band of misplaced and disowned humans from a now destroyed kingdom (Stromgarde). Its abit unclear on their part in the Alliance, or even if they are a part, outside of game mechanics. I'd personally say they are, as they'd want to take advantage of the other power base of the larger and intact human kingdoms. Warsong Gulch is well, more your territory, but I would agree, the Horde are 'in the wrong' in that stance, but again, game mechanic.

I typically call something a game mechanic when it directly clashes with established lore. For example, the fact that Night Elven priests cannot use bows may be called a game mechanic because in lore, they do. Or, the loading screen as we phase into instances is a game mechanic because in reality, there aren't seven deadmines. The battlegrounds being representative of a large conflict though... I don't think that's a game mechanic.


Alterac Valley is abit more clouded in a murky haze of grey. If I'm remembering right (and people are free to correct me with cited examples), the dwarves had abandoned the land the Frostwolves had taken up residence in, for a few centuries. So in common dwarven ways, someone somewhere probably found some note about the place, got a team of explorers, and found Orcs instead. The clan had been settled there since the Orcs first came over during the First war, what, 30-40 years? I think that’s long enough to consider that now their territory, or atleast, their home. Squatters rights is a good example. Sure, both races are remarkably territorial, but neither one is right, or wrong, in that conflict.

From what I understand, the Stormpikes technically hold claim to the land, they had just not attempted to force the Frostwolves out until their archaelogists were attacked (little did they know, they were digging on land that defiled Orcish spirits). This is when the Stormpikes decided to attempt to enforce their land rights.


Now, your bring up good examples of Alliance taking Horde territory, but saying Horde take the cake, but sister, the Alliance, they took the castle.

One Word.

Outland.

That is, most definitely and completely, Horde territory. Its the orcs ancestral homeland. Now, you could say that the orcs invaded Azeroth, so the Alliance just responded, but that’s rather silly schoolyard logic, or better yet, one wrong, doesn't make a right. Not only does the Alliance have a strong presence there, and in some cases, INCREDIBLY UNFOUNDED (see:Night Elf and Gnomish strongholds in Blade's Edge), they also have several very well known, and VERY anti-horde leaders they rediscovered to still be alive. Danath Trollbane (though my favorite hero from WarCraft 2), is a KNOWN hater of any and all Trolls, and is in command of the main and first Alliance fortress in Hellfire.

I wouldn't argue that. Draenor is as much territory of the Draenei as it is to the Orcs, and some of the places you are describing are in control of the Burning Legion, the Fel Orcs, the Ogres or some other enemy of the Mag'har, but not that Mag'har themselves. To claim that these lands belong to the Mag'har would be the same as for me to claim that the Barrens belong to the Night Elves.

The only real conflict when it comes to land that I can at least see is in Halaa, which is something directly caused by the Horde in this case.


I'm going to stop here, as I feel I could go on, and realize my points are getting blurry only due to the time of it being 3am. But still, pick up stuff, and I'll go on. I love discussions like these, when people bother to have them, not not point fingers of making assumptions, when its still a fictional universe, and if you can't atleast bother to take part in a discussion, then don't bother at all.

I agree, and it looks like this one is actually going rather well.

[Lythas]

From what I understand, the Stormpikes technically hold claim to the land, they had just not attempted to force the Frostwolves out until their archaelogists were attacked (little did they know, they were digging on land that defiled Orcish spirits). This is when the Stormpikes decided to attempt to enforce their land rights.

Not trying to be funny or anything at all, but isn't this almost exactly like the whole Ashenvale thing? Dwarves digging around and defiling Orcish spirits unknowingly, Orcs retaliate, shit goes horrible wrong, blah blah blah?

[Raziel]

That is my point Raziel but I guess I didn't make it clear. You have Night elves and Trolls in the Original Kalimdor..

And that's wrong.

You have the trolls and the Tauren in the original Kalimdor.

Also the creatures like, say, Quillboar and Harpies and the Azi'aqir.

These are the original races; none of which are aberrations of titan creations or mutations from magic.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Not trying to be funny or anything at all, but isn't this almost exactly like the whole Ashenvale thing? Dwarves digging around and defiling Orcish spirits unknowingly, Orcs retaliate, shit goes horrible wrong, blah blah blah?

The difference between the two scenarios is that the Frostwolves are technically on Stormpike land. If the Frostwolves actually owned the land and did that, I'd be behind the Frostwolves 100%, but they don't satisfy the former requirement.

Edit:
These are the original races; none of which are aberrations of titan creations or mutations from magic.

At least according to theory. Remember that Blizzard said that the Night Elven descendance from Trolls is unconfirmed. Tomorrow they could come out and say: "Guess what! Night Elves actually came from outer space!"

[Necroxis]

Where did it say that the majority of the Tauren were anywhere aside from the Barrens/Mulgore before Thrall came and helped them defend themselves from the Centaur? Because Cairne specifically says that their tribes were nomadic to the Barrens/Mulgore, and aside from the ancestors in Northrend, I cannot recall something stating that they were anywhere aside from the Barrens, even if in the Rhonin-Sue altered War of the Ancients timeline, the Tauren were convinced to join in the war against the Burning Legion.

I can't find anything stating that they ever lived anywhere outside of Mulgore and the Barrens. Could you link me something showing where you're getting this information about "Tauren lands" regarding Azshara, Ashenvale, Feralas, Desolace, Felwood, or Darkshore. Im not saying it's not true, but it would be an interesting turn of events if they happened to have lived there in ancient times. I just like proof :P

[EnheilRas]

There's the Desolace, and the only way through the Desolace is either the Thousand Needles and Feralas, or the Stonetalon Mountain range.

[Necroxis]

There's the Desolace, and the only way through the Desolace is either the Thousand Needles and Feralas, or the Stonetalon Mountain range.

Where does it state that ancient Tauren were anywhere other than the Barrens? You say Desolace but I can't find anything supporting this. I'm talking about pre-Cataclysm1.0. Aside from having Tauren in the Emerald Dream, Cairne states in War3 that they've roamed the Barrens for centuries (Or for a long time...I forget his exact words) as nomads.

[Okhu]

This still has nothing to do with Cataclysm I don't think

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

This still has nothing to do with Cataclysm I don't think

*Shrugs* I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this. The mods decided that this was the place to put it, I'm assuming because Ashenvale is a continuing problem into Cata.

[Raziel]

Where does it state that ancient Tauren were anywhere other than the Barrens? You say Desolace but I can't find anything supporting this. I'm talking about pre-Cataclysm1.0. Aside from having Tauren in the Emerald Dream, Cairne states in War3 that they've roamed the Barrens for centuries (Or for a long time...I forget his exact words) as nomads.

Tauren follow the Kodo, like the Plains Indians followed the Great Buffalo.

The Tauren main settlements were in the Desolace, but they were driven out by the rampaging Centaur Hordes that arrived there from Ashenvale (being descendents of Cenarius) and made their Camps in the Maraudon area.

Y'all should really head to Ghostwalker Post and do some quests there around the great kodo graveyard.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Tauren follow the Kodo, like the Plains Indians followed the Great Buffalo.

The Tauren main settlements were in the Desolace, but they were driven out by the rampaging Centaur Hordes that arrived there from Ashenvale (being descendents of Cenarius) and made their Camps in the Maraudon area.

Y'all should really head to Ghostwalker Post and do some quests there around the great kodo graveyard.

I'm wondering how the Kodo got there. They'd either have to navigate Feralas or the Stonetalon mountains at least... or they might have somehow climbed over the mountains separating Desolace from Mulgore.

More clarification on this from Blizzard I think is required... Kodo navagating mountainous regions, or somehow dropping into the thousand needles doesn't make much sense to me.

[Lythas]

The difference between the two scenarios is that the Frostwolves are technically on Stormpike land. If the Frostwolves actually owned the land and did that, I'd be behind the Frostwolves 100%, but they don't satisfy the former requirement.

I was reading up on this and trying to find out just exactly where you got it that the land actually belonged to the Stormpikes and I haven't found any sort of concrete evidence supporting your claim. In fact: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5573

The opening posts mentions a Stormpike NPC saying that the land wasn't theirs, but they were just there to kick some orc ass. Of course, I'm looking around to see if I can find the exact dialogue, but isn't that damning enough that this situation is just another Ashenvale?

[Hifazat]

And that's wrong.

You have the trolls and the Tauren in the original Kalimdor.

Also the creatures like, say, Quillboar and Harpies and the Azi'aqir.

These are the original races; none of which are aberrations of titan creations or mutations from magic.

Night Elves are not a Titan race. Also the Horde theory that Night Elves descended from Trolls is just that a theory. There is no lore stating that and more importantly there is no physical evidence in game stating that either.

So if we are gonna go with made up theories, I am stating Trolls are nothing more than mutated Naga. Who were Night Elves. There we go.

And the Tauren never stepped foot into the Night Elven lands as they were present at the same time. They worship the same gods and they were taught the same druidic talents. However lore does state that Night Elves were taught to be druids first.

So they had to be present before or around when Tauren were there.

[Hifazat]

I was reading up on this and trying to find out just exactly where you got it that the land actually belonged to the Stormpikes and I haven't found any sort of concrete evidence supporting your claim. In fact: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5573

The opening posts mentions a Stormpike NPC saying that the land wasn't theirs, but they were just there to kick some orc ass. Of course, I'm looking around to see if I can find the exact dialogue, but isn't that damning enough that this situation is just another Ashenvale?

Alterac Valley is infact part of the Alterac Mountains kingdom. Meaning it is human territory. The Syndicate and the Alterac Kingdom sided with the Horde during the second war. Stromgarde and Gilneas ensured that it was completely destroyed and gutted for betraying the Alliance.

That led to the territory being open for all. But it has never ever been horde territory. Like I said earlier you can't walk into someone's home and claim their home as your own. Alterac is Alliance territory. The Dwarves have taken up the fight there.

[Jeedup]

The Night Elves=Trolls theory isn't a 'Horde' theory, its a lore theory, with SOME standing in lore I think, I'd have to dig it up. And Naga? They came AFTER Night Elves, Trolls were already around.

[Lythas]

Alterac Valley is infact part of the Alterac Mountains kingdom. Meaning it is human territory. The Syndicate and the Alterac Kingdom sided with the Horde during the second war. Stromgarde and Gilneas ensured that it was completely destroyed and gutted for betraying the Alliance.

That led to the territory being open for all. But it has never ever been horde territory. Like I said earlier you can't walk into someone's home and claim their home as your own. Alterac is Alliance territory. The Dwarves have taken up the fight there.

...sssssso when the Frostwolves were exiled to this desolated, abandoned territory that belonged to a group who sided with the Horde, that meant absolutely nothing. So when Dwarves came to sniff out ANCIENT RELICS (ancient meaning shit from the PAST), things that would have been steadily prospected if they stayed in the territory, it's perfectly fine, because they used to live there centuries ago and upkeeping such things are completely unnecessary.

what is this i dont even

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I was reading up on this and trying to find out just exactly where you got it that the land actually belonged to the Stormpikes and I haven't found any sort of concrete evidence supporting your claim. In fact: http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5573

The opening posts mentions a Stormpike NPC saying that the land wasn't theirs, but they were just there to kick some orc ass. Of course, I'm looking around to see if I can find the exact dialogue, but isn't that damning enough that this situation is just another Ashenvale?

The Wowwiki article indicates that the Stormpikes do in fact live, and hold claim to the valleys of Alterac. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Alterac_Valley) These valleys are also known as the Dwarf Highlands. As for the Alliance Brigadier Generals, (the only NPCs that I can find which claim that Alterac Valley is Frostwolf Territory) they say the following:


Make no mistake about it, <name>. The Horde is quite right when they say Alterac Valley is Frostwolf Territory.

You see, the Stormpike Expedition arrived as peaceful visitors to the area in search of ore and relics. The Frostwolves reacted with the most brutal and uncivilized act of aggression the Alliance has experienced.

Let us never forget the brave dwarves that perished in that cowardly unannounced attack. Go now, <class>, do your part in the battle for Alterac Valley. For the Alliance!

I question the context of this statement however. Is the general referring to the Frostwolves as being overly territorial, comparing them to dogs marking their territory, or is the propaganda mill not working correctly? Alliance Brigadier Generals and Horde Warbringers were notorious for their sophistry, with examples including the idea that the Night Elves were defending Ashenvale because they wanted to invade the Barrens. (But Mr. Warbringer. If they wanted the Barrens, wouldn't they have taken it thousands of years ago?) I find it hard to believe that the Brigadier generals were being literal on this point.

I do think the Alliance should leave the Frostwolves alone, but I do believe that it is Stormpike land.

[Chikt]

And the Tauren never stepped foot into the Night Elven lands as they were present at the same time. They worship the same gods and they were taught the same druidic talents. However lore does state that Night Elves were taught to be druids first.

If the Tauren and Night Elves worship the same gods, how can you say that it's out of the question that they stepped foot in each others lands?

[Lythas]

The Wowwiki article indicates that the Stormpikes do in fact live, and hold claim to the valleys of Alterac. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Alterac_Valley) These valleys are also known as the Dwarf Highlands. As for the Alliance Brigadier Generals, (the only NPCs that I can find which claim that Alterac Valley is Frostwolf Territory) they say the following:



I question the context of this statement however. Is the general referring to the Frostwolves as being overly territorial, comparing them to dogs marking their territory, or is the propaganda mill not working correctly? Alliance Brigadier Generals and Horde Warbringers were notorious for their sophistry, with examples including the idea that the Night Elves were defending Ashenvale because they wanted to invade the Barrens. (But Mr. Warbringer. If they wanted the Barrens, wouldn't they have taken it thousands of years ago?) I find it hard to believe that the Brigadier generals were being literal on this point.

I do think the Alliance should leave the Frostwolves alone, but I do believe that it is Stormpike land.

Awright, cool beans.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

If the Tauren and Night Elves worship the same gods, how can you say that it's out of the question that they stepped foot in each others lands?

First, while there is speculation that Tauren and Night Elven gods are connected, the idea is nothing more than that.

I also have a theory that the Tauren and the Night Elves weren't talking to one another for a very long time. Cairne didn't even bother to tell the Orcs about the Night Elves (and if he did I get the feeling that things would have been very different). I believe it's because the old tauren who knew of the Night Elves from the War of the Ancients all died out, and memory of the Kal'dorei simply faded.

It's just a theory though. However, I will say that Desolace does not border Ashenvale (but Stonetalon does). Feralas is a possibility, but that's only marginally Night Elven (it also doesn't solve the Kodo and the Thousand Needles problem).

[Hifazat]

If the Tauren and Night Elves worship the same gods, how can you say that it's out of the question that they stepped foot in each others lands?

The original claim was that Night Elf territory belonged to the Tauren and the Trolls. There is no proof of that in game or in lore. The claim they never stepped foot into their lands refers to territorial wars and claims.

I meant to say that the Tauren and Night Elves did not fight over territory that both sides claimed.

Edit: Feralas is a major Night Elven area in the sense it is the home of the Highborne and has been since the Sundering. Dire Maul is supposedly bigger in lore than in game. Additionally it has a location to the Emerald Dream and doing quests there you see a bunch of stuff that is linked with Night elf lore and traditions.

[SgtSlaughter]

I was going to refute hifazat, on the points of alterac and troll->elves, but I see that has already been done.
However, to expound upon the point brought up by a one mister Jeedup:
The troll->elf theory came into being on the huge 10 page troll history that was/is on the world of warcraft homepage, which thusly gives it more credence than any theory we might claim of our own.
Also, still trolls in what is now known as night elven lands. I won't go so far as to say that elves are descended from the vast majority of trolls, but there is a certain group that will be putting in an appearance in cata (oh look okhu, a reference to cata) who have lived in the area for quite some time and happen to have druid abilities. This lays a greater credibility to the trolls->elves theory.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I was going to refute hifazat, on the points of alterac and troll->elves, but I see that has already been done.
However, to expound upon the point brought up by a one mister Jeedup:
The troll->elf theory came into being on the huge 10 page troll history that was/is on the world of warcraft homepage, which thusly gives it more credence than any theory we might claim of our own.
Also, still trolls in what is now known as night elven lands. I won't go so far as to say that elves are descended from the vast majority of trolls, but there is a certain group that will be putting in an appearance in cata (oh look okhu, a reference to cata) who have lived in the area for quite some time and happen to have druid abilities. This lays a greater credibility to the trolls->elves theory.

The theory certainly is credible, but Blizzard explicitly states it as a theory. Therefore, it would be premature to assume it as truth.

I believe that it probably happened that way, but like I said, Blizzard could come out tomorrow and say "guess what!?".

[Chikt]

First, while there is speculation that Tauren and Night Elven gods are connected, the idea is nothing more than that.

I also have a theory that the Tauren and the Night Elves weren't talking to one another for a very long time. Cairne didn't even bother to tell the Orcs about the Night Elves (and if he did I get the feeling that things would have been very different). I believe it's because the old tauren who knew of the Night Elves from the War of the Ancients all died out, and memory of the Kal'dorei simply faded.

I believe the Night Elves and Tauren DID meet a long time ago, but when the Tauren were scattered by the centaur the knowledge became lost - as did their knowledge of the druidic arts.

Lets face it. We know Tauren were in Stonetalon, Desolace, the Barrens, Thousand Needles and Mulgore. They were arguably in Feralas. There is even a Tauren settlement on the coast South of Silithus. Depending on when these were established, how far the Tauren were scattered may well have been very wide. They'd have fled to places to escape the Centaur. And since the Night Elves have been established in Northern Kalimdor for a long time, it only makes sense for the Tauren to establish themselves Southward.


It's just a theory though. However, I will say that Desolace does not border Ashenvale (but Stonetalon does). Feralas is a possibility, but that's only marginally Night Elven (it also doesn't solve the Kodo and the Thousand Needles problem).

I think it's simple.

Kodo are most pronounced in Mulgore. You see a decent amount in the Barrens. None in Stonetalon. And dead or dying ones in Desolace. So it would appear that the Kodo move between Mulgore and the Barrens depending on the season, and then as they die they take the path through Stonetalon to get to Desolace. They wouldn't go South through Thousand Needles, so it's the only way they'd get there.

Same goes for the Tauren. I imagine Tauren followed the Kodo through to Desolace, and then ended up exploring Feralas and Thousand Needles from there.

[Hifazat]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/troll/history.html

That is a link that you are using to quote your claim that Night Elves descended from Trolls. But there is nothing in that page or the following pages that even hints at it.

It is assumption made by players. Not part of lore at all. Could be viable? Who knows. But it is not something hinted at.

As I stated previously the two empires were east of the Moonwell. As stated by the above link.


About 16,000 years ago, trolls lorded over much of ancient Kalimdor, which was the only continent on Azeroth at the time. Out of the tribes that had split off from the Zandalari, two troll empires had emerged: the Gurubashi empire of the southeastern jungles and the Amani empire of the middle forestlands.

The south eastern Jungles and the midland Forestlands. That would be everything North of the Thandol Span. That is where the empires existed. They did not exist to the North west where the Night Elf territories are.

Also after the war with the Azj'Aqir:


With the insectoids driven into exile, the two troll empires returned to business as usual. Neither civilization expanded much farther than its original boundaries.

The same link does not state that they established their empire on existing Troll lands.

What it does state and I quote:


The night elves developed along the shores of the Well of Eternity, and so they were strengthened by its energies. Despite the trolls' attempts to keep this new race from claiming further territories, the night elves built up a mighty empire that expanded rapidly across Kalimdor. Wielding fierce magics never before imagined by the trolls, the night elves soon threatened the two greatest empires in the world.

The night elves systematically dismantled the trolls' defenses and supply chains. Unable to counter the elves' destructive magics, the trolls buckled under the onslaught. The territories of the Gurubashi and Amani empires fragmented within only a few years, and the night elves' shockingly quick victory incurred the trolls' eternal hatred.

Now remember the same link states that the Original two Empires did not expand beyond their previous boundaries. And their previous boundaries were no where near the North Western portion of Kalimdor, where the Night Elf Empire is located.

[Anthek]

Edit: Feralas is a major Night Elven area in the sense it is the home of the Highborne and has been since the Sundering. Dire Maul is supposedly bigger in lore than in game. Additionally it has a location to the Emerald Dream and doing quests there you see a bunch of stuff that is linked with Night elf lore and traditions.

I wouldn't call Feralas a major Night Elven area anymore, since the Highbourne were exiled and no longer welcome among them. The area was abandoned by them until recently, for nearly 10,000 years. Dire Maul is primarily controlled by the Gordunni ogres. Feathermoon Stronghold is a new development, since Shandris is Tyrande's second-in-command and wouldn't have left the northern forests if the Third War hadn't happened. It's certainly important to their history, but not occupied by them.

Not including the night elves or the ogres, who are both recent arrivals (the ogres came with the Shadow Council during the Second War, when Gul'dan was searching for Sargeras's Tomb), the only sentient species that remained in the area are the tauren and the green dragons, and the latter don't have settlements like the tauren do, since they have been corrupted by the Nightmare. Including the Grimtotem, they're much more widespread in Feralas than any other race currently.

[SgtSlaughter]

you uhh, didn't apparently read far enough.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/troll/trollsandnightelves.html

which certainly doesn't discount its theoryhood (theoriticality? theoryness? theoryitude?) but puts it to be way more than

assumption made by players. Not part of lore at all


also, to discount the other subraces of trolls simply because they are not gurubashi or amani is to be quite foolish, because while their numbers make up the greater percentage, it only accounts for less than half of the actual distinct types of trolls. Dark trolls totally exist, they live in that isolated village that's up in darkshore, and were featured with distinction in WCIII, even joining up with night elves to whup on some demons (oddly enough, especially after everybody laid waste to them cuz they were creep mobs).
However, upon further research, I doubt they're the ones who spread druidism to the trolls, given their back history.
That being said, life evolves, and although trolls have remained largely unchanged for the past 10000000000 years, evolution is certainly not out of the question.

[Raziel]

it's likely that troll relics and what not don't exist in upper Kalimdor because the Kaldorei mutation laid waste to them and obliterated them, and over the next few millenia built over them.

Saying that the Trolls never lived in upper Kalimdor when it was one continent and only their continent because we can't find where they lived is like saying that the Iroquios never lived east of Appallachia because we can't find their fucking teepees.

[Lisbet]

Oooooo a night elf/troll/old race debate?

AAAAANNND I'm back.


Raz is right (omgitburns). Trolls, Tauren, and much of the less civilized races existed before the titans's stone men turned into flesh men.

The first inhabitants of Azeroth were the Trolls (who became night elves via over-exposier to the Well of Eternity), Tauren (who were favored of Eonar, until they were 'touched' by the corruption of the elemental lords.), Quilboars, the Quiraj, etc etc.

Trolls and Tauren were first out of the civilized races. Trolls took up MUCH of the world, only leaving alone the bits ruled by the bug-people (creepy) that by then had ALREADY been corrupted by the parasites known as Old gods. Tauren were nomadic, and followed the Kodo. It can only be assumed that the Tanunka were seperated from the rest of their people during the sundering.

The Dark Trolls - or "primordial night dwelling humanoids" as Blizzard has put it, lived closest to the Well. Through continual contact with the well, they were changed. After the first couple thousand years, the Kaldorei appeared, and started building. They pushed the already dwindling troll-lands back to their respective corners, and took over middle Azeroth. This is why you find more organized troll settlements on the east coast of Eastern Kingdoms, and less of them on the shores of Kalimdor.

Tauren kept to themselves. This, above everything else, is the reason why they're not heavily mentioned. They were nomatic, and peaceful. Kaldorei - especially circa highborn era - looked their noses down at them. As if they were nothing more then beasts, and not worthy of the effort to care. Its only assumed that trolls felt very similar.

The stories that tauren still have left - being so much more short lived then the Kaldore, and much less advanced (see, writing) then the trolls - tell that they were the favorite of all the native critters on Azeroth of 'The Earthmother'. She visited them often, and gave them the gifts of strength and Intelligence. But they fell under the sway of an agent of great corruption, and she left them.

Its speculated that Eonar, the Titan of all Life, is this Earthmother - and that this agent of great corruption was in fact an old god. When the tauren fell under the sway of an Old God, Eonar abandoned her favorite creatures. Its believed that this corruption took hold when the Tauren learned to speak with the elements - the servants to the old gods.

...I forgot what I was going about.


I blame munchkins.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/troll/trollsandnightelves.html


Without additional data, there is little point in debating the merits of this controversial theory. No doubt it will remain a matter of contention for years to come.

(Bottom of the Page)

[Jeedup]

Trolls were most definitely civilized *grumble*

[SgtSlaughter]

I looked at that, and thought "well yeah, but like that's gonna stop anybody from doing it."

[Gorvena]

http://www.trollcall.net/timeline.html

More Troll lore, admittedly written from a Troll's p.o.v.

[SgtSlaughter]

Trolls were most definitely civilized *grumble*

It's just such an advanced civilization that these other races CANT EVEN COMPREHEND IT

[Hifazat]

Alright. Instead of arguing over what is acceptable or not. Simply show any piece of lore that states that explicitly states Night Elves evolved from Trolls. If there is no lore stating exactly it is merely speculation. And the Trivia states openly that is a belief Trolls hold. Nothing more.

I agree it is not a major area anymore. But in the past it was part of the night elf kingdom.

[Jeedup]

Theres also no where saying it s a 'troll' belief. Its a lore theory, started by Blizzard themselves, so they dont NEED to prove it, they just leave it for people to come up with ideas about it. There were no real mention of Night Elves (or their ancestral counterparts, if they had one), during the time that Trolls were one of the more dominant species of Azeroth. Then, outta no where, it seems they pop up, while Trolls are still going strong, so Blizzard seems to have left it so people can make up their minds. At this point in the 'history' of Azeroth, it doesn't mean crap. Hell, Troggs are (I believe) a sub-species of Dwarf from many years ago, when those silly Titans were screwing around with things.

Night Elves don't really seem to have a 'kingdom', really, more like settlements. They're not really a people with any form of main government. They're more spiritally involved than anything else, and while they have a form of military, they don't really use it all that much, except when pressured. Their other settlements seem more 'independent' from the rest of eachother, but still have ties as a race.

[Necroxis]

Night Elves have a form of leadership...at least after Aszhara's banishment/supposed-death/Nagafication.

There are the Sentinels (The military arm) with Tyrande as the leadership, and the spiritual side with Malfurion as the leadership. That's very much a form of government.

[Hifazat]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/troll/trollsandnightelves.html

First sentence second paragraph of the said link:


Certainly many trolls do believe that the humanoids who developed into the night elf race were trolls.

And Jeedup thank you for saying exactly what I said a few pages ago. No where in lore does it categorically say that the Night Elves evolved from Trolls. Rather players made that assumption based on 2 sentences that is all.

I have already showed that according to Blizzards own lore that Night Elves did not take over Troll Territory. Now their own lore shows it was a belief and Horde players are using 2 sentences to supposedly make it fact.

It could be fact if Blizzard decides. But for now it is speculation.

[Jeedup]

And Jeedup thank you for saying exactly what I said a few pages ago. No where in lore does it categorically say that the Night Elves evolved from Trolls. Rather players made that assumption based on 2 sentences that is all.

Also note, that its also NOT proven false by Blizzard, but Blizzard has put some hints that it IS possible. Nothing solid either way.


I have already showed that according to Blizzards own lore that Night Elves did not take over Troll Territory. Now their own lore shows it was a belief and Horde players are using 2 sentences to supposedly make it fact.

It could be fact if Blizzard decides. But for now it is speculation.

Its not 'horde players', its just players.

Also remember, that its not JUST trolls that are an important thing to look at, but what major sub-species of trolls were active at the time. Pre-Sundering, I haven't seem much information saying if the seperate species (Sand, Frost, Forest, Jungle) had evolved yet.

Now POST Sundering, yes, there was territorial disputes with the Kalimdor based Trolls, mostly Sand, when the Night Elves were dealing with the Aqir. I could be wrong, I believe I read this during the old AQ stuff, some quest giver, that they used to be rather major in the Southern Regions.

However for the REST of Kalimdor, I don't think another species went farther north than current Thousand Needles. Someone know more?

Can't forget, you can't count the Eastern Kingdom trolls into the Night Elves=Trolls equation, as this all happend PRE-SUNDERING.

[Jeedup]

Night Elves have a form of leadership...at least after Aszhara's banishment/supposed-death/Nagafication.

There are the Sentinels (The military arm) with Tyrande as the leadership, and the spiritual side with Malfurion as the leadership. That's very much a form of government.

Its a form of government, sure, however, it's not really centralized. And thats not a negative criticism, I actually like that about the species. Look at the Human form of government, the outlying towns (of say Stormwind), have their own township government, then answer then to the officials of Stormwind. Really basic city/state government. While the Night Elves colonies have a small mayorship, its not really one oriented towards 'government', more a peacefully, I dare say hippy-commune vibe, than one with strict rules and harsh values. Like I said, its one I like, the seperate colonies seem to almost be individual entities than a seperation from a larger whole.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Its a form of government, sure, however, it's not really centralized. And thats not a negative criticism, I actually like that about the species. Look at the Human form of government, the outlying towns (of say Stormwind), have their own township government, then answer then to the officials of Stormwind. Really basic city/state government. While the Night Elves colonies have a small mayorship, its not really one oriented towards 'government', more a peacefully, I dare say hippy-commune vibe, than one with strict rules and harsh values. Like I said, its one I like, the seperate colonies seem to almost be individual entities than a seperation from a larger whole.

I'm not so sure about that. I've always picked up the vibe that it's rather centralized, and there are reasons I believe this, including....

-Signs in Darnassus: Unless Blizzard is just being lazy, the signs show absolutely no sign of private ownership of business. My guess is that these aspects of the economy have been socialized. (Another reason why Aleria left Kalimdor as soon as she could.)

-Wardens: Who can forget wardens: the shadowy police force of the Kal'dorei? With an imbedded Judge Dredd reference somewhere, should you break the law, they will come for you, and you will never be heard from again (Unless you're Illidain...).

On that subject, I know that Tyrande massacred most of them, but we need at least some wardens to come back...

-Forest Spirits: The forest spirits told me you helped a Satyr... guess what other things they've been telling me?

[Jeedup]

-Signs in Darnassus: Unless Blizzard is just being lazy, the signs show absolutely no sign of private ownership of business. My guess is that these aspects of the economy have been socialized. (Another reason why Aleria left Kalimdor as soon as she could.)

Okay, you're fun to talk to about with lore but...street signs? YOU'RE SILLY! They are STREET SIGNS. I'm sure the troll capital would have street signs.


-Wardens: Who can forget wardens: the shadowy police force of the Kal'dorei? With an imbedded Judge Dredd reference somewhere, should you break the law, they will come for you, and you will never be heard from again (Unless you're Illidain...).

I agree here, alittle. Wardens seem almost like another semi-religious occupation common in the Night Elves, and Warden themselves, seem to be very uncommon, as you've already mentioned. They're more like Templar Knights or an elite form of infantry.


-Forest Spirits: The forest spirits told me you helped a Satyr... guess what other things they've been telling me?

Again, this....doesn't really make sense for a government example. They're...forest spirits? IDK!!! Silly accountant.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Okay, you're fun to talk to about with lore but...street signs? YOU'RE SILLY! They are STREET SIGNS. I'm sure the troll capital would have street signs.


No, I do think this is an important point. In Stormwind, you might see "Pestle's Apothecary", whereas in Darnassus, you'd see "Alchemy". Or, in Ironforge you would see "Timberline Arms" whereas in Darnassus you'd see "Staves" or "Weapons". So, either Blizzard is just being incorrigably lazy, or, "In Soviet Darnassus, tree cut you!".


I agree here, alittle. Wardens seem almost like another semi-religious occupation common in the Night Elves, and Warden themselves, seem to be very uncommon, as you've already mentioned. They're more like Templar Knights or an elite form of infantry.

They're not really infantry, they were the police force, and they were extremely devoted to their jobs. They aren't that common now thanks to Tyrande, but back before the Third War...


Again, this....doesn't really make sense for a government example. They're...forest spirits? IDK!!! Silly accountant.

My point is that almost everywhere you go in Night Elven lands, big brother is watching you.

[Skaadvik]

Alright. Instead of arguing over what is acceptable or not. Simply show any piece of lore that states that explicitly states Night Elves evolved from Trolls. If there is no lore stating exactly it is merely speculation. And the Trivia states openly that is a belief Trolls hold. Nothing more.

I agree it is not a major area anymore. But in the past it was part of the night elf kingdom.

dude I can not read. you're sentences that are. actually more complex thoughts. divided up into multiple. horribly confusing ideas.

[Hifazat]

dude I can not read.

That explains so much.

[Hifazat]

Also note, that its also NOT proven false by Blizzard, but Blizzard has put some hints that it IS possible. Nothing solid either way.



Its not 'horde players', its just players.

Also remember, that its not JUST trolls that are an important thing to look at, but what major sub-species of trolls were active at the time. Pre-Sundering, I haven't seem much information saying if the seperate species (Sand, Frost, Forest, Jungle) had evolved yet.

Now POST Sundering, yes, there was territorial disputes with the Kalimdor based Trolls, mostly Sand, when the Night Elves were dealing with the Aqir. I could be wrong, I believe I read this during the old AQ stuff, some quest giver, that they used to be rather major in the Southern Regions.

However for the REST of Kalimdor, I don't think another species went farther north than current Thousand Needles. Someone know more?

Can't forget, you can't count the Eastern Kingdom trolls into the Night Elves=Trolls equation, as this all happend PRE-SUNDERING.

Again exactly my point from a few pages ago. No where in lore does it in fact state that this is 100% true. Rather it is assumption made by players based on a few lines.

[Raziel]

Again exactly my point from a few pages ago. No where in lore does it in fact state that this is 100% true. Rather it is assumption made by players based on a few lines.

and an in-game book.

[EnheilRas]

No, I do think this is an important point. In Stormwind, you might see "Pestle's Apothecary", whereas in Darnassus, you'd see "Alchemy". Or, in Ironforge you would see "Timberline Arms" whereas in Darnassus you'd see "Staves" or "Weapons". So, either Blizzard is just being incorrigably lazy, or, "In Soviet Darnassus, tree cut you!".

You're reading into it too much.

You can't see the forest for the trees.

[Jeedup]

Again exactly my point from a few pages ago. No where in lore does it in fact state that this is 100% true. Rather it is assumption made by players based on a few lines.


...you're being very selective on what you read. The theory IS there, and it's not just from players, but as stated, several times, by Blizzard lore as well. So looking into the theory, THAT HAS SOLID STANDING IN LORE, isn't far fetched.

[EnheilRas]

Looks like Sipah has learned debate from the Plug-In-Ears-And-Shout-NAH-NAH-NAH-CAN'T-HEAR-YOU methodology.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Without additional data, there is little point in debating the merits of this controversial theory.

[EnheilRas]

it's not controversial at all, and it's also true (http://thottbot.com/live/q7361). The reason the elves still war on the trolls is to wipe them out--a genocidal campaign of mass attrition--because the elves don't want anyone to know their true origins.

In fact, with Trolls retaining drudism from an Echo Isle's based clan, there's even more evidence to how their kin took up the training.

[Necroxis]

While I dont know whether Night Elves definitely came from Trolls or not, the quest you linked is from a Troll, who are the ones (in-game) that primarily argue this theory. Just something to think about. And I'd say it's pretty controversial from an in-game perspective.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

it's not controversial at all, and it's also true (http://thottbot.com/live/q7361). The reason the elves still war on the trolls is to wipe them out--a genocidal campaign of mass attrition--because the elves don't want anyone to know their true origins.



My last statement was a direct quote from a Blizzard page on Trolls.

It MAY be true, it probably is true, but I quote blizzard again in saying that there's no point in debating the merits of this controversial theory.

[SgtSlaughter]

well, I'd like to say that turnabout is fair play, blizzard never listens to us, so why should we listen to them
'sides, they could say that the warsong clan was completely justified in their actions in ashenvale, and you wouldn't listen to them, you'd keep at it
sooooo.......

[EnheilRas]

that just made me in the mood for a little Hulkamania.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

well, I'd like to say that turnabout is fair play, blizzard never listens to us, so why should we listen to them
'sides, they could say that the warsong clan was completely justified in their actions in ashenvale, and you wouldn't listen to them, you'd keep at it
sooooo.......

If you really wish to play this game...

The Undead worship the light! Blizzard never listens to us, so why should we listen to them? Besides, they could say that the Protoss landed at Mount Hyjal, and you wouldn't listen to them, you'd keep at it soooo....

As you can see, the core tenets of the argument can be twisted in every direction.

[SgtSlaughter]

well of course they can, and the protoss TOTALLY landed at My Hyjal.
Protoss is Thallassian for eredar right?

[Raziel]

It's not your book to write Aleria.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

It's not your book to write Aleria.

Good advice that you might want to take yourself on this matter.

Blizzard has explicitly held that the Night Elf Troll relation is a theory and nothing more. I don't pretend that I can go running around ignoring that because "they never listen to us.".

[Jeedup]

I like to think it personally, but thats me.

Also, Night Elves make horrible accountants.

Mostly because their revenue plant roots and start talking back.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Also, Night Elves make horrible accountants.



Are you prepared to back that up?

[Jeedup]

Yes.

When I eat your inferior brain, and use your inferior spinal column as a necklace. And use your inferior ears for spoons.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Idle threats won't help you. *Hands over a ledger.*

You have a shredder expected to last ten years, which was purchased at a cost of 250-00-00. The method of depreciation used is sum-of-the-years, and it was purchased a quarter of the way through the year. What is the depreciation expense so far at the third quarter of the fifth year?

[SgtSlaughter]

Magic
It works in Azeroth.
We have mages that work pro bono to maintain the upkeep of the shredders.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Magic
It works in Azeroth.
We have mages that work pro bono to maintain the upkeep of the shredders.

You're still expending the labor of the mage which may be more productively employed elsewhere.

[Necroxis]

Yes.

When I eat your inferior brain, and use your inferior spinal column as a necklace. And use your inferior ears for spoons.

Make sure to eat her heart to gain her courage!

Oh and...umm...

Night Elves are...um...elves! How dare they...um...think that...uhh...trolls were not the first beings..........

...they totally were...

...I think

*Adds to the conversation*

[SgtSlaughter]

You're still expending the labor of the mage which may be more productively employed elsewhere.

what if he doesn't want to be more productively employed elsewhere?
could be part-time work.

[Dorishar]

So, read the previous pages something I'm confused about in justifying Stormpike aggresion to the Frostwolves (biased statement ftw)

-

I wouldn't argue that. Draenor is as much territory of the Draenei as it is to the Orcs, and some of the places you are describing are in control of the Burning Legion, the Fel Orcs, the Ogres or some other enemy of the Mag'har, but not that Mag'har themselves. To claim that these lands belong to the Mag'har would be the same as for me to claim that the Barrens belong to the Night Elves.

-

Draenei land on Orcish land and squat there, building a civilization. They have equal rights to the land as the Orcs that have been their.... forever, knowing they're being pursued by the very beings that brought the Orcs to damnation.

Orcs squat on empty land in Azeroth, land that belonged to a ally during the war, and they're invading ancient Dwarf lands and are aggressors.

I'm failing to see the difference in each of the acts. So either both were in the wrong or both are in the right.


I know we're on a troll vs Elf debate but I'm a orc lover >.>

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

what if he doesn't want to be more productively employed elsewhere?
could be part-time work.

I would say that you're describing a social deviant, and that even in a world where the Horde is not in Ashenvale, there will be other shredders, elsewhere, broken down, in need of repairs. If the mage truly wishes to pursue this calling, other opportunities will present themselves.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Orcs squat on empty land in Azeroth, land that belonged to a ally during the war, and they're invading ancient Dwarf lands and are aggressors.



It's hardly squatting in the first case, and in the latter I mostly agree with you, but I also believe in land rights, and that it is unjust for someone to simply arrive and wrest from you the product of years of labor, and, in the former case, your home of over ten-thousand years.


I know we're on a troll vs Elf debate but I'm a orc lover

You see, this is what confuses me the most. I point out a viable alternative, explain it thoroughly, even including the accounting. I make the point that in multiple ways, pursuing this course would benefit the Horde, and yet, I find Hordecentric posters bending over backwards, to the point of denegration of the people they claim to love, to claim the opposite, steadfastly rejecting every reality but the one which insists that the Horde has no choice but to be there.

The question is: what is the purpose of this blatant sophistry?

[SgtSlaughter]

that the horde remain there despite everything else
Plot and lore devices trump everything, and if there is an established lore/plot device that doesn't change, especially when confronted with real world economics in a fantasy setting where one goes to escape realities such as these, people are liable to reject them.
And perhaps, just perhaps, hordecentric players are jingoistic and hate the night elves and wish to see their forests logged.
And again, real-world economics do not necessarily apply/exist/function in a fantasy setting.

[Raziel]

Good advice that you might want to take yourself on this matter.

that's the difference though, I'm not writing anything. My evidence is backed purely with in-game material, which, suffice to say, is always the more correct due to being up to date than that outdated, outsourced, "history" page that hasn't been touched in 2 and a half years.

One of these days you'll realize your degree is useless with regard to a fantasy world where things happen by pure fucking magic due to portals and wizard oil.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

that's the difference though, I'm not writing anything. My evidence is backed purely with in-game material, which, suffice to say, is always the more correct due to being up to date than that outdated, outsourced, "history" page that hasn't been touched in 2 and a half years.

Can you tell me then, where Blizzard has changed their mind since then, and link the page?


One of these days you'll realize your degree is useless with regard to a fantasy world where things happen by pure fucking magic due to portals and wizard oil.

Even pure magic is scarce. It takes time to cast, it takes people to cast it, and it can only do so much at once. It also should be noted, that not everyone is a mage, in fact I would assert that there is a reason why most activities are still performed with menial labor (the Blood Elves notwithstanding). Magic does not invalidate the first requirement (that resources are scarce), or the second (that people have unlimited wants and needs). Therefore, it merely becomes another facet of the problem.

[Jeedup]

So, you're pro-Draenei having rights to the land, cause they crashed there once, and stayed isolated, for a few hundred years? (actually, how long WERE they there, that was never really stated clearly I think). BUT, you're against the Frostwolves stacking a claim to equally unused land, for 35-40 years? So, your issue is time, but still, if you're there, undisturbed, for any more than 5 years, I'm pretty sure you could say the Frostwolves have an equally legitimate claim to their lands.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

So, you're pro-Draenei having rights to the land, cause they crashed there once, and stayed isolated, for a few hundred years? (actually, how long WERE they there, that was never really stated clearly I think). BUT, you're against the Frostwolves stacking a claim to equally unused land, for 35-40 years? So, your issue is time, but still, if you're there, undisturbed, for any more than 5 years, I'm pretty sure you could say the Frostwolves have an equally legitimate claim to their lands.

Dreanor is fuzzy, we simply need more information to make blanket claims which assert that before the arrival of the Draenei that the entire planet belonged to the orcs. It's also important to note that they only started having problems with each other when the Burning Legion arrived, but I believe the situation is different from Alterac Valley.

With respect to Alterac Valley, I believe that the Stormpikes technically do have rights to the land, but I also believe that they have the wrong solution.

[Hifazat]

Jeedup and Enh I don't run the national enquirer standard of research where you take one statement out of context establish a theory on it and then pass it off as 100% solid fact.

Night Elves evolving from trolls is not fact. It is not lore. It is a theory. No matter how much credibility it has in the minds of players. Unless Blizzard explicitly makes a statement stating "Night Elves evolved from Trolls" it is not lore.

[SgtSlaughter]

So, you're pro-Draenei having rights to the land, cause they crashed there once, and stayed isolated, for a few hundred years? (actually, how long WERE they there, that was never really stated clearly I think). BUT, you're against the Frostwolves stacking a claim to equally unused land, for 35-40 years? So, your issue is time, but still, if you're there, undisturbed, for any more than 5 years, I'm pretty sure you could say the Frostwolves have an equally legitimate claim to their lands.

250 years before the dark portal opened



yabut, it's a theory that originated with blizzard
By way of a comparison for instance
The economics of the warsong clan being in ashenvale being wholly unproductive and a terrible idea=player theory
trolls->night elves=lore theory
It has more credence automatically since it came from blizzard themselves, both via the website, and in-game references.
Does this make it true? Very obviously that depends on who you ask.
but nevertheless, it's more valid than anything you or I, or anyone else could come up with unless we worked at blizzard in the lore department.

[Hifazat]

Oh great. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Theory

Doesn't matter what semantics are used. It is not lore because Blizzard has yet to state for certain that this is the lore.

Unless it is explicitly stated it is nothing more than conjecture based on one statement that blizzard itself is caveating.

[Necroxis]

There's one major difference between arguing over the claims to Draenor compared to the claims of Alterac Valley:

When the Draenei arrived on Draenor in Oshu'gun, they were almost immediately aware of the Orc's presence there. Rise of the Horde has Velen stating that the Draenei were quite aware of their neighbors and were pretty much watching them with interest that one of us might watch a group of monkeys at the zoo with interest. They traded with them, and they were also on a neutral (Yet formal) relationship with them.

Alterac Valley is different. For all intent and purposes, the Dwarves had -never- occupied Alterac Valley. It's not like they once inhabited the land and then picked up and left, they were never settled down there. The Frostwolves settled down onto unsettled land and attacked hostile invaders (The Dwarves) who riled up the spirits of the dead (As Dwarves often do with their fun little excavations).

Here's my spin on the Alterac Valley issue:

I don't understand why the Dwarves feel as if they have any legitimate claim to Alterac Valley in the first place. Let's go back to before the Second War was over.

Alterac (Including Alterac Valley) was under the ownership, obviously, of the Kingdom of Alterac and it's ruler Aiden Perenolde. Long story short, Perenholde was helping out the Horde in return for the safety of his people, was discovered, and branded a traitor by Uther and the Alliance.

In "Lands of Conflict," Uther makes this proclamation:


BE IT NOW KNOWN that the individual called Lord Aiden Perenolde and every known ally (see attached list), due to their association with the vile Horde during the war and their traitorous actions toward the Alliance and her citizens, shall be stripped of all land, holdings and wealth and known hereafter as traitors to the Alliance. They shall forfeit all rights to citizenry in the Alliance. Indeed, they are considered enemies of all citizens of Lordaeron. Let no good people of this land show them hospitality, mercy or sanctuary. Consider the honor they gave the Alliance and her citizens, and treat them no better.
So said in this seventh year of the new Alliance.
Sir Uther Lightbringer of the Knights of the Silver Hand

By this decree, Alterac's land (Which includes Alterac Valley), now belongs to the Alliance, being stripped away from Perenolde. Something I think we need to realize is that this proclamation gave the land to the ALLIANCE OF LORDAERON, not the current incarnation of "The Alliance" -- which wasn't even around yet.

Alliance of Lordaeron:

Azeroth: Azeroth was wholly destroyed during the First War, and is more appropriately renamed "Stormwind" later on. This is the only standing member of the Alliance of Lordaeron left, although even that is debatable as "Stormwind" is not truly the "Kingdom of Azeroth"

Lordaeron: Destroyed by the Scourge. Now in control of the Forsaken, who, for all intents and purposes, are the former citizenry of Lordaeron.

Stromgarde: Destroyed

Kul-Tiras: Owned by Thrall, Rexxar, and the Horde. Have yet to be heard from since.

Gilneas: Left the Alliance when Greymane built the Wall.

Dalaran: The "Alliance of Lordaeron" version of Dalaran was obliterated by Archimonde. The current incarnation of Dalaran is now technically a neutral faction.

Alterac: Destroyed by the Alliance after Perenolde betrayed them. All of their land was forfeit, and effectively they were kicked out of the Alliance.

Quel'thalas and Khaz-Modan were also members of the Alliance of Lordaeron -- and here is where I think the Dwarves believe their claims over the land belong. Since the proclamation of Uther said that all Alterac land belonged to the Alliance now, and the Dwarves were part of that Alliance, they believe they now own part of that land.

Where I disagree, however, is that the Alliance of Lordaeron no longer exists. It was shattered by both the Second War and it's ramifications, as well as the uprising of the Scourge. The current incarnation of the Alliance really has little claims over proclamations of land that were given to the former Alliance.

If we're going to pretend that the former Alliance of Lordaeron proclamation extends beyond the Alliance of Lordaeron, then a slew of other kingdoms also hold claim over Alterac and Alterac Valley as well: Stormwind, the Forsaken, the Dwarves, the Blood Elves, the Gilneans (Who have rejoined the Alliance in Cataclysm), and even the Kirin-Tor. I do not think, however, that we recognize this because it doesn't make much sense since the ALLIANCE OF LORDAERON IS GONE.

The Alliance (of Lordaeron) came in, destroyed a good portion of Alterac, imprisoned Aiden Perenolde, and then left. They didn't settle down onto the land, they didn't leave people there, they didn't even leave guards there. They ran up, snatched Perenolde, and left. This is why there are absolutely no Alliance bases in the Alterac Mountains. I should mention that there are conflicting lore reports regarding if the Alliance of Lordaeron really "destroyed" some of Alterac or not. I felt I should bring it up, although it really doesn't change the overall point whatsoever. Even if some of Alterac wasn't destroyed, the land was still quite forfeit.

The Frostwolves came in and settled down onto uninhabited land that was under the claim of an Alliance which existed initially, but was pretty effectively destroyed. Unless somehow transfer of ownership could occur (Which I would strongly argue against, again because all remaining incarnations of former members of the Alliance of Lordaeron are fairly different from what they once were), the land was really not under any ownership at all.

[Lythas]

WALL OF AWESOME

That's some NICE researching there! I was just about to get started on that myself because I don't think I was truly satisfied with my acceptance on the Ashenvale =! Alterac Valley issue.

[SgtSlaughter]

Oh great. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Theory

Doesn't matter what semantics are used. It is not lore because Blizzard has yet to state for certain that this is the lore.

Unless it is explicitly stated it is nothing more than conjecture based on one statement that blizzard itself is caveating.

Gravity is also a theory.

and it's definitely more than one statement, there's the quest text from what Raz linked and the in-game book "The Waking of the World and the Well of Eternity." lend further credence.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Gravity is also a theory.

We're quickly treading into David Hume territory here, and if we all really want to go down that road, we can start invalidating every aspect of science.

The Troll theory is just a tad different. Blizzard has made it very clear that the theory is speculative, and without additional information (which they may provide at some time in the future) there's no point in making the argument.


To Necroxis, I enjoyed your post, but you didn't address my argument:


The Wowwiki article indicates that the Stormpikes do in fact live, and hold claim to the valleys of Alterac. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Alterac_Valley) These valleys are also known as the Dwarf Highlands.

[Lythas]

...ssssso can we say it's more like: AV = Draenor...?

[Necroxis]

Hmm...I hadn't actually read the WoWWiki AV post. This makes things a bit more interesting.

If the Stormpike Clan does in fact live there...then I'd need more information before making judgment.

However I think the fact that Ironforge and the Bronzebeards saying they hold claim there is quite ridiculous, pointing back to my earlier post.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

...ssssso can we say it's more like: AV = Draenor...?

I wouldn't say that, because Draenor was not entirely Orc land. The Orcs and Draenei also were peacefully trading with one another for a time, respecting land which they agreed belonged to each respective party.

Then the legion came...


However I think the fact that Ironforge and the Bronzebeards saying they hold claim there is quite ridiculous, pointing back to my earlier post.

Edit: Yes, I do believe you are correct as far as that is concerned.

[Jeedup]

This is where I'm starting to see flaws in your arguement, Aleria. (Thats not a negative critism, and I say this cause well, its text).

Sorry, but, Draenor IS Orc land. You cannot really argue around that. Lets (much to my displeasure) use Earth as an example.

Earth is a Human planet. Humans 'own' it.
BUT, there are other native species here, key word, native.
Insects are the highest populated species of the planet, but they are not sentient.
Now, I realize those above statements can start other larger debates, but lets stick to the subject.

The Draenei, while yes, have been on Draenor for 250 years (thank you for clarifying Sgt.Slaughter), it is not, and will not, be their planet. Their home? Yes. Do they hold territory? Yes, and I would argue as well, legitimatly, via squaters rights. Even if thats a realistic law, it still fits in this fictional universe, as its been done many times before.

Also, I'm unsure (go go Slaughter and Necroxis!), how recent this 'trading and peaceful' relationship with the Draenei was. When I read Rise of the Horde, that wasn't what I interpreted from that. Yes, what I, MYSELF, interpreted. Could we get a direct quote of some fashion that might shed light? I recall it was a relationship of mutual suspicion, but with the Draenei feeling it better to be distant, like you mentioned, Aleria. But peaceful trading? I...really don't feel thats right, but will hold out judgement till I see more. Peaceful co-existance? I agree, avoiding eachother based on superstitions is as peaceful as anything really.

But to the heart of the flaw I see:

You say you agree the Draenor is rightfully Orcish, however, also rightfully Draenei, due to them living there, peacefully, for a long period.

How is this any different, than the Frostwolf Clan, abandoning the Horde of the time (Blackhand ruled, Burning Legion aligned, with Ner'Zhul in real control), to seek out a peaceful life, away from danger and politics, since they were unable to head home? Thats almost EXACTLY like the situation that lead to the Draenei to come to Draenor. So they find a land, far far away from any conflict they know of, away from any civilization they can find (please dear god do NOT bring up the current game map, as its a horrible, horrible visual for actual locations and dimensions), that is unoccupied, and fits there needs. Plus, a spiritual bonding, as they find a pack of wolves that they commune with, and settle down, untouched, for decades.

I would argue also, that the Dwarvish claim is while sure, semi-legitimate, but also, rather silly. It sounds like: 'At some point in time, we dont know how long ago, some dwarves, we don't know who, were here. Maybe once. I think they maybe even pee'd on that tree!', and boom, it's dwarvish land. Now, thats definitley true to dwarvish lore, and their origins, its what they do (See: Dwarvish outpost in Barrens), but its also a tad silly. Now, that doesn't make it false, but it still is a similiar situation between Alterac, and Draenor.

Also, amazing post Necroxis.

[Raziel]

it's no different than the Isles in which the Draenei crashed in Azeroth as well, destroying the landscape, polluting the environment, mutating the creatures, infesting the ecology with alien species?

Those are night elf lands for sure. Not only are they lands, they're right off Teldrassil.

[Jeedup]

it's no different than the Isles in which the Draenei crashed in Azeroth as well, destroying the landscape, polluting the environment, mutating the creatures, infesting the ecology with alien species?

Those are night elf lands for sure. Not only are they lands, they're right off Teldrassil.

Only difference? Night elves gave them cookies.
Now look what happened!

GIVE A DRAENEI A COOKIE AND HE HAS TO HAVE AN ISLAND OF HIS OWN!

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Very well, in light of recent arguments, I will concede the draenic part of the argument, with a bit of a caveat.

The Second War changed things quite a bit. If you look at the maps of the world of dreanor, for example, you might notice that it's divided into land held by the different clans. Most of these clans have either left the land for good, are long dead, or have become enemies of both the Alliance and the Horde. I will therefore remind the reader that the argument concerning Outland was brought up by Jeedup as an example of Alliance offenses against the Horde. The Horde which we are referring to, however, has no possessions in Outland until the re-opening of the Dark Portal, and the lands of the Mag'har are very difficult to define given the presence of Ogre Bands, the Burning Legion, and other malicious clans orcs which oppose both the Alliance and the Horde. This is why I limit infringements in Outland to the Alliance quest where you kill Mag'hari out of a misguided sense of retribution, and the Horde's invasion of Halaa.

In respect to the Draenei on the Azuremyst Isles, I consider the isles to be Night Elven land. Where the Draenei differ from the orcs is that they were respectful of the land's inhabitants, and have thus far taken steps to atone for the accident. This is why the Night Elves are allowing them to live there (although I would charge rent if I was in charge).

[Jeedup]

An interesting point Aleria, though, I think once the leadership of the CURRENT Horde, got back to Outland, and talked with the main leadership (who also happened to be the grandmother of Thrall) of the orc clans that remained anti-fel influence (a wide majority, or atleast, an even split it seems), then yes, Outland (either whole or non-alliance/Burning legion controlled), became then, Horde territory.

But you still do bring up a valid point, just contributing :D

Seriously, I love this discussion, keep contributing!

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I would say that we're discussing the non legion/Alliance owned territory in respect to what belongs to the Mag'har.

[Jeedup]

I would say that we're discussing the non legion/Alliance owned territory in respect to what belongs to the Mag'har.

Simple:

Everything.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Simple:

Everything.

Actually, I did forget something, here's a quick edit:

Non Legion/Kurenai/Sha'tar/Alliance/Angry-Orc-Clan-that-isn't-the-Horde/Ogre/Gronn/Illidari land.

There we go, a bit of clarification.

[Jeedup]

Actually, I did forget something, here's a quick edit:

Non Legion/Kurenai/Sha'tar/Alliance/Angry-Orc-Clan-that-isn't-the-Horde/Ogre/Gronn/Illidari land.

There we go, a bit of clarification.

In 'reality' (hate having to use that term for talking about a fictional world, but it works), those lands would really be, not a whole lot. Think of the game model of Outland, and imagine it larger, with each space, MUCH MORE FILLED OUT. Remember, its supposed to be one of the larger continents of a now dead planet. And, post BC, alot of those lands, with the exception of Alliance (old Alliance and new Alliance, like the Night Elf base, and Honor Hold for example and Draenei sections), the rest? All Orc lands, all the time baby!

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

If you fill it out, who is to say that there will be orcs there instead of demons/ogres/angry-non-horde-orcs/Alliance members?

[Lythas]

"Both had seen the Draenei before, of course, but only at a distance. They came now and then to each clan, ready to trade their carefully crafted tools and weapons and decorative pieces of carved stone in exchange for the thick pelts of the forest animals, brightly woven blankets, and raw materials the orcs culled from land and stone. It has always been an occasion of interest in the clans, but the exchanges only lasted a few hours. The draenei- blue-skinned, soft-spoken, eerily arresting- did not invite closeness, and no clan leader had ever asked them to stay and share their hospitality. Relationships were cordial but aloof, and everyone involved seemed to want it that way."

Chapter Two of Rise of the Horde, pages 38-39

Still looking to see if there was anything else mentioned, but, uh, I started reading the book again fo srs. Damn, it's such a good book.

[Necroxis]

Damn, Lythas beat me to it, I went scrambling upstairs to find my "Rise of the Horde" book. Yes, it is such a good book. My favorite part, actually, is in the beginning when Velen has all the Ata'mal Crystals and the Draenei escape. I really like the imagery of the prologue.

Regarding the Draenei and the Mag'har. I think a sufficient response would have also been (Because I can't take credit for posting the novel's quote hehe):

Restlaan and Velen openly welcomed the Orcs into their cities. They provided them with bed, food, and company. Velen even had a fairly lengthy conversation with them (While it might have also been to learn more about the Orcs, he was cordial nonetheless).

Regarding the Mag'har:

From WotLK and onward, the Mag'har were part of the Horde. You see their various NPCs in key locations, and one of the top generals of the Horde's efforts in Northrend was a Mag'har (Dranosh Saurfang). Those lands were Mag'har when the portal was closed, and now that they've joined the Horde, those lands are Horde.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

From WotLK and onward, the Mag'har were part of the Horde. You see their various NPCs in key locations, and one of the top generals of the Horde's efforts in Northrend was a Mag'har (Dranosh Saurfang). Those lands were Mag'har when the portal was closed, and now that they've joined the Horde, those lands are Horde.

Define "those".

[Necroxis]

Whatever the jurisdiction of the Mag'har are. I'll be the first to admit I do not know the answer to this. As it was brought up multiple times, this might be hard to determine because of the Burning Legion/ect.

I do not know how legally the property laws exist regarding passage of land ownership, but pretty much all of Draenor pre-sundering was in Orcish control. Does the fact that the majority of those Orcs became Horde1.0...the ones who went to Azeroth and died or became part of Horde2.0 with Thrall? If that is the case, that some of the Orcs who lived on Draenor and went to Azeroth and survived, the ownership of land is simpler than passage of ownership from that clan to the Mag'har...and then back to the Horde. It simply means that those lands belong to the Orcs who survived horde1.0 to become Horde2.0, and it is their land.

Was that convoluted? Good, it was to me too. Hopefully you understood what I meant.

At the very least all of Nagrand would fall under the Mag'har jurisdiction, regardless of Halaa and Telaar. Nagrand was pretty much the spiritual home of the Orcs pre-Burning Legion.

I honestly dont even remember where the beginning of this thread relates to what we're talking about now. It's not a bad thing, but what was the initial point of conversation?

[EnheilRas]

It's also the fact that all clans are in Mag'har; any that aren't fel that were left from Draenor's Sundering are Mag'har; Mag'har describes their skin color and their background of not joining the Legion. You see this from a Frostwolf/Thunderlord Matriarch (Greya), a Warsong Chieftain (Garrosh), and a Bleeding Hollow Second-in-Command (Jorin); it's not so much a clan as it was in old times, as the name of a whole people.

[Jeedup]

To go off what Raz just said, consider it the 'Alliance of the Clans', much like the 'Alliance of Lordaeron'. All orcs, all with seperate clans/kingdoms, separate leaders, but now, united to face common foes. It's a mirror of the original Alliance, seperate kings joining up to fight the orcs.

Irony in Blizzard lore? NO WAI!

[Lythas]

I am probably spending too much time on this, but I'm working on a map that will kinda sorta depict territory by the different races on Outland. So far, there's a great deal of Draenei territory, a lot more than I had originally thought, including a spot that was mentioned to be one of the original Draenei settlements that a particular clan of Orcs settled onto after they had moved on.

[Lythas]

Define "those".

Still a WIP, but here. These weren't marked willy-nilly, I've been comparing notes with both the Wikis and the Rise of the Horde book:

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/796/territorybasedonwiki.jpg

The Orange Markers are pretty much any other species besides Orc, Draenei, Ogre, and Gronn. Obviously this isn't complete, but it's a start to break down exactly what 'those lands' are.

edit: sweet jesus, I'm turning into you with freaking CHARTS and MAPS and dear god

what have i become



















dear god

[Jeedup]

In the current political climate, I'd remove Shattrath, Black Temple and Auchindoun, from the Draenei list, and make the first two 'Neutral'. I've not heard whats happened post-Illidan to Black Temple, I'd assume its more now a Broken stronghold, or perhaps, a newer-Shattrath. While Auchindoun is mostly abandoned by the Draenei (with some trying to get into the inner areas for specifc reasons, along with some neutral groups), it seems to be completely out of the interest of all parties involded on the grand scheme of things.

Zangar is mostly Horde controlled, and I do mean Horde. Theres a larger Horde presence there, and the trolls love it there. So while yes, Draenei (old and new settlements) are there, and Alliance sections, and a NEUTRAL Cenarion outpost, its mostly Horde.

[Hifazat]

Gravity is also a theory.

and it's definitely more than one statement, there's the quest text from what Raz linked and the in-game book "The Waking of the World and the Well of Eternity." lend further credence.

And that text says its a Belief the Trolls hold. And a belief does not mean it is 100% lore.

There is a very simple way to solve this. Until Blizzard states categorically that this is Lore, it is simply a theory by players. No matter how you couch it in semantics.

[Lythas]

In the current political climate, I'd remove Shattrath, Black Temple and Auchindoun, from the Draenei list, and make the first two 'Neutral'. I've not heard whats happened post-Illidan to Black Temple, I'd assume its more now a Broken stronghold, or perhaps, a newer-Shattrath. While Auchindoun is mostly abandoned by the Draenei (with some trying to get into the inner areas for specifc reasons, along with some neutral groups), it seems to be completely out of the interest of all parties involded on the grand scheme of things.

Zangar is mostly Horde controlled, and I do mean Horde. Theres a larger Horde presence there, and the trolls love it there. So while yes, Draenei (old and new settlements) are there, and Alliance sections, and a NEUTRAL Cenarion outpost, its mostly Horde.

I was aiming for pre-Burning Legion D:

[Jeedup]

I was aiming for pre-Burning Legion D:

The current game map isn't really a fair display of Pre-Legion times, as alot of it, would still be all Orcs (with exceptions made to Draenei on what dates you're using, and Orges, depending on their interactions with orcs Pre-Legion, and their migration. Ogres were pawns of the Gronn, until they were hunted down, and forced to join the Horde, which is Post-Legion), even in areas like Zangar, and Dragon Ridge (which was possibly the home of the Dragonmaw Orcs, and the Moknathol(sp) Ogre/Orc clan.

The other problem? We have NO idea the scope of the planet as a whole. What we see in current Outland, is basically all you ever saw or read about from the series, and World of Warcraft. :(

[Lythas]

The current game map isn't really a fair display of Pre-Legion times, as alot of it, would still be all Orcs (with exceptions made to Draenei on what dates you're using, and Orges, depending on their interactions with orcs Pre-Legion, and their migration. Ogres were pawns of the Gronn, until they were hunted down, and forced to join the Horde, which is Post-Legion), even in areas like Zangar, and Dragon Ridge (which was possibly the home of the Dragonmaw Orcs, and the Moknathol(sp) Ogre/Orc clan.

The other problem? We have NO idea the scope of the planet as a whole. What we see in current Outland, is basically all you ever saw or read about from the series, and World of Warcraft. :(

Yeah, it's super flawed because the continent is broken up and whatnot anyway.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I would also make distinctions between pro-horde orcs and anti-horde orcs. Fel Orcs aren't exactly representative of the Horde's beliefs and values. There were a few ogre possessions missed, but overall I think it was pretty good.

On the subject of graphs, wait until you have to use supply and demand graphs as a crutch for EVERY discussion you find yourself in. :) The mental shorthand is useful, but as I learned the hard way, it is HATED around here.

[SgtSlaughter]

And that text says its a Belief the Trolls hold. And a belief does not mean it is 100% lore.

There is a very simple way to solve this. Until Blizzard states categorically that this is Lore, it is simply a theory by players. No matter how you couch it in semantics.

well sort of, but the theory wouldn't have existed unless blizzard threw it at us.
They were the originators of the theory.
not players.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

well sort of, but the theory wouldn't have existed unless blizzard threw it at us.
They were the originators of the theory.
not players.

Does it matter? A theory is a theory, no matter where it came from. It MAY be foreshadowing, but Blizzard could just as easily say that something else created the Night Elves.

I find myself reiterating that there is no point in arguing the merits of this theory, and those words are not my own, but Blizzard's.

[Raziel]

Gods are beliefs, yet they still manifest themselves to be reality in this world.

As for your map Lythas, it's pretty fucked up.

Auchindoun was owned by the Bleeding Hollow Clan; Kil'rogg Deadeye stationed the veterans of the Second War there upon returning from Azeroth.

The WC2:TDP Map in the instruction manual is good enough.

[Necroxis]

If it was Pre-Burning Legion, then Auchindoun would be Draenei territory. If it was post-Burning Legion, it would be Shadow Council, Burning Legion, Ethereals, Arakkoa

[Gorvena]

Gravity is also a theory.
NO!

NONONONONONONO!!!!!!!

Gravity is a physical LAW!

G-d I hate having to explain that to people. :rolleyes:

And while I favor the theory that the Well of Eternity somehow "warped" trolls into nelfs, I also agree that it is a theory, if not merely a hypothesis.

[SgtSlaughter]

Gravity is a theory by means of inductive reasoning.
We accept that it is true in the same way that we accept that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, but we can't test it in such a way to 100% conclusively prove it.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Gravity is a theory by means of inductive reasoning.
We accept that it is true in the same way that we accept that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, but we can't test it in such a way to 100% conclusively prove it.

You have read David Hume, haven't you? :D

[Gorvena]

Gravity is a theory by means of inductive reasoning.
We accept that it is true in the same way that we accept that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, but we can't test it in such a way to 100% conclusively prove it.
Bullshit. Drop anything. ANYTHING. See what happens.

Gravity is a PHYSICAL LAW. Just like momentum. Study physics, not bullshit David Hume philosophy.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Bullshit. Drop anything. ANYTHING. See what happens.

Gravity is a PHYSICAL LAW. Just like momentum. Study physics, not bullshit David Hume philosophy.

You know, I say "The law of demand is an ECONOMIC LAW. Just like compartive advantage." but people will never stop questioning it.

[Gorvena]

And I agree. Laws are laws and calling them theories is degrading to those who did the research and testing to prove them, thus making them laws.

But people like to vomit all the misinformation they have heard while insisting that it is gospel truth and will not be moved off point. It's irritating, but it is. Just as Gibraltar is, and the Easter Bunny isn't.

[Agnarr]

Bullshit. Drop anything. ANYTHING. See what happens.

Gravity is a PHYSICAL LAW. Just like momentum. Study physics, not bullshit David Hume philosophy.

Actually I read something a week or two ago where they showed how gravity is essentially a myth. Wish I could remember where I found the link now.

[Gorvena]

One can prove/disprove anything using skewed data. Anything.

Man, this is so freaking off-topic...

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

One can prove/disprove anything using skewed data. Anything.

Man, this is so freaking off-topic...

It's a tangent. The whole thing is off topic!

[Gorvena]

It's a tangent of a tangent!

...or maybe an oblique?

[SgtSlaughter]

Bullshit. Drop anything. ANYTHING. See what happens.

Gravity is a PHYSICAL LAW. Just like momentum. Study physics, not bullshit David Hume philosophy.

I was a philosophy major for two and a half years, and I'm now going into the coast guard for electromagnetics. I just took a fairly in-depth physics class.
It's ridiculous to try to take one without the other, and while I certainly accept gravity's continuing influence and control of the universe, that doesn't change it from a theory. Especially considering the scientific definition of theory being something that is generally accepted (see theory of relativity, theory of evolution), something does not get to be a theory just by people positing the idea and doing a few tests, those are called hypotheses. A true theory is something that has been tested a fuckload of times, then submitted to journals, then been critiqued, then reviewed, and finally, once the general scientific community says "yeah ok, I'll believe that," then it becomes a theory.
But no, I've never read David Hume, I just regard him as one of the fathers of the modern world after I read an amazing book called "How the Scots Invented the Modern World." The school I was going to was doing their Seminar on an Enduring Philosopher on David Hume but it was after I had already left the school.

[Jeedup]

While a talk about the philosophy of gravity is nice, its incredibly off topic. How about we steer this boat back on course, huh?


I feel that while the map of Lythas's is abit 'bad' its actually a fair representation. I'm more interested however, and would love to see Blizzard do something about it, is whats going on with Outland POST-Illidan.

[Necroxis]

I would guess it'd be the same as Azeroth will be in Cataclysm:

Alliance and Horde killing each other for small pieces of land.

Illidan is "dead"
Kael is gone
The Burning Legion, on the whole, are gone from Draenor.

Now the Alliance can be the bad guys and take land that was originally the Orcs! :D

[Jeedup]

Well, the real difference is, Alliance has NO right to be there. Now, while the Orcs yes, went there to pillage and make conquest, there were duped into this by outside, and inside elements. Second War is now over, so an Alliance presence, is now abit invalidated. Sure, thats a bit of an extremist, and definitive statement, but I think it fits. Now, look at Thrall (for the orcs anyways), decision to leave the Eastern Kingdoms, and move to Kalimdor, DELIBERATLY, so they could now have a new home, and be out of the hair of the human/dwarf/gnome/elvish kingdoms. Now, while yes, Kalimdor is by no rights -theirs-, its definitley their new home. So, still, why the fudge does the Alliance think they should be in Outland? If they REALLY wanted to get rid of the Orcs (not the Horde as a whole, but sure, that'd be an end goal too), they could play nice, and let them finally re-habitate their homeland again.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Well, the real difference is, Alliance has NO right to be there. Now, while the Orcs yes, went there to pillage and make conquest, there were duped into this by outside, and inside elements. Second War is now over, so an Alliance presence, is now abit invalidated.

I wouldn't say that. The second war's upheaval of the land created power vacuums, which were repeated by the Illidari invasion. This gave leeway for the Alliance to gain territory which was uncontrolled by the Mag'har.

We have to remember as well that while the Mag'har consist of a collection of clans, it's an entirely new as a political entity, and I would argue that they have little actual land that they control. Meanwhile, the angry-non-horde-orc clans, Legion armies, and Ogre warbands. (Although, we can't ALL be mad at the Ogres. After killing some Gronn, one clan declared me queen! Right now we are working on great things. We built a university, our financial services firms are second to none, and we have the fourth largest GDP in all of Outland!)

[Necroxis]

I agree with the overall premise of your statement, Jeedup.

However Thrall did not leave the Eastern Kingdoms to be away from the Humans. He moved the Orcs there because he believed in what Medivh said about the world "gun get blowed up" by bad guys and they had to go there to protect the World Tree (found out eventually). Just clarification :P

I agree completely that the Alliance really has no reason to be in Outland now that Illidan + Vashj, Kael, and the Burning Legion are gone. The Draenei...that's a bit of an iffy subject. They revered Black Temple and Shattrath, but they don't really have an issue with picking up and moving (Hell they've done it tons of times to escape the Burning Legion).

So if Velen went to Outland and was like "Hey dudez, we gonna be staying with our elf friends now, time to go!" and took all of his Draenei that remained in Outland to Azeroth, I doubt many would resist.

The issue I have with Mag'hari sovereignty or what have you is sort of related to what Aleria just posted. They aren't necessarily "new" --- because the settlement itself was very much in existence before the Orcs went all crazy. I suppose the point when the Mag'har actually became the "Tribe" of Mag'har was when the Dark Portal was closed and the rest of the Orcs were cut off from them.

It's tricky because let's say you have RandomOrcX. And he was a member of the Laughing Skull Clan on Draenor (Im just snagging a random clan for clarification sake), and he had Red Pox. So he got sent to Garadar. All the bad stuff happens and Khadgar closes the Dark Portal.

At what point is RandomOrcX now a member of the Mag'har instead of the Laughing Skull Clan? And does the ownership of the Laughing Skull Clan's land rightfully belong to RandomOrcX and any other possible Laughing Skull Clan Orcs who were sent to Garadar because the rest of the clan is gone? AND does this mean that since they became Mag'har, those rights transfer to the Mag'har as a whole?

Does this hypothetical situation explain where I have hangups regarding the Mag'har? My first attempt earlier in this thread was convoluted and made my brain hurt after I typed it out.

[Raziel]

clan membership is fluid. Once you change alliegance and prove yourself (there's usually an initiation ritual for a clan), you are in that clan.

[Necroxis]

Except there really isn't "clan initiation" for the Mag'har. All they were were a bunch of sick Orcs sent to Garadar so they didn't spread Red Pox.

[Raziel]

That's why I find it hard to classify them as a "Mag'har clan" rather than a "Mag'Har People"

[Necroxis]

Alright, I'll agree with that, but my question still remains:

Say you have a few Orcs from one of the Clans that went to Azeroth in Garador because they were sick. Since the Dark Portal closed, would ownership change to those sick orcs? And since they are now "part" of the Mag'har, do they own that land now too?

[Jeedup]

Necroxis, it might help you (in terms of thinking anyways), of viewing the Mag'Har, like the Alliance (specifically the first one), as they really do follow a carbon copy basic set up. Heck, I actually wonder if that was a deliberate choice, I'd like to think it was.

It helped me when looking into the internal and external politicals concerning Outland. I'll probably post more later.

[Kained]

Kael'thas dies during your fight against Deathwin-... Oh wait....

[Jeedup]

Kael'thas dies during your fight against Deathwin-... Oh wait....

I wonder how many expansions it will take before he's just a talking skull in a glass jar.

[Necroxis]

Necroxis, it might help you (in terms of thinking anyways), of viewing the Mag'Har, like the Alliance (specifically the first one), as they really do follow a carbon copy basic set up. Heck, I actually wonder if that was a deliberate choice, I'd like to think it was.

It helped me when looking into the internal and external politicals concerning Outland. I'll probably post more later.

See...here's where I disagree, at least in terms of viewing them. They don't really identify themselves as anything BUT Mag'har. The Alliance of Lordaeron had very specific difference within the overall faction. There were various leaders for each sub-faction with each their own land and forces.

The Mag'har are just the Mag'har. There aren't subfactions, there aren't multiple leaders. There was just Garrosh. There weren't multiple lands, there was just Nagrand and Garadar.


I wonder how many expansions it will take before he's just a talking skull in a glass jar.

Illidan gets revived by having two crystals shoved in his chest and will use the Skull of Kael'thas instead of Gul'dan.

[Jeedup]

I think it still works though, as the clans still within them, are still separate, and owe allegiance to their clan leader. Now, the Alliance of Lordaeron, seemed to look to King Menethil as the 'leader', while still individual leadership internally. Get it?

Just an example though.

[Necroxis]

I understand your examples. I can see correlations in certain areas between them (Each subfaction within the AoL and the Clans had a leader), however other areas don't seem (to me, at least) be similar.

It's probably just the way my brain works, though. I didn't mean to destroy the entire conversation, it was quite interesting.

Carry on.

[Jeedup]

Its fine, like I said, was just a way for me to look at them since yes, admittedly, they are confusing. They're formed like a separate clan, but they aren't. Well sort of, well....kind of, well maybe not.

Get it?

Ya I dont either!

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Its fine, like I said, was just a way for me to look at them since yes, admittedly, they are confusing. They're formed like a separate clan, but they aren't. Well sort of, well....kind of, well maybe not.

Get it?

Ya I dont either!

From my perspective, the Mag'har are a different political entity than the other Orcish clans, and that above all else is what matters in a discussion concerning political boundries.

Let's say for example that a Shadowmoon Orc of a former clan there had the red pox, and was quarantined to Garadar during those fun days, and now this Orc is Mag'hari. Does this orc now hold claim to land controlled by his former clan, now a hated enemy of the Horde? I would say no.

[EnheilRas]

of course they do; they're ancestral lands; the Shadowmoon Clan was a Shaman Clan. Most, if not all, the Old Shaman Culture were derived from the Shadowmoon.

[Jeedup]

They definitely would. You're operating that, if you're an orc, and not in the current Horde, and in a Mag'Har group, you're no longer that clan. You're both, you're Mag'Har, and you're whatever clan you are. If of course, its not a fel clan, and you're not a fel orc, but then, you'd be dead anyways. Remember, there were some members of a few of the 'hated' clans to join the new Horde, so it's not unthinkable, especially terms in RP.

Again, really, its Orc land, Alliance has no real claim over any of it, and should get the fudge out.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

So let me get this straight... you are of X political entity when you join Y, a political entity made up of people from other political entities. X is at war with Y, but because you were a part of X, you hold a legitimate claim to X's lands?

Why?

[Jeedup]

The Mag'Har aren't at war with the other clans*, have you done any of the Horde side quests pertaining to the Mag'har? They would be more educating in this than me.

*See: Not Fel Orcs. You're really trying to screw the argument with your X and Y example, as, that won't always work, or make sense. Now, if any Orc, that remained on Outlands, avoided being corrupted by the fel energies, or weren't killed by those that were, the Mag'Har would openly welcome then. Don't forget, not all of the clans (pre-Dark Portal), were friends with eachother. Some were in all out war, others, supscious of each other, while some were in open friendships. Warsong and Bleeding Hollow for example, did not like eachother. Blackrock orcs, were reknowned for being the most bloodthirsty, unruly, and untrustworthy, but, were respected. Its how orc politics work.

You're example just doesn't work. Because, you'd have to do it for the Alliance too, and it doesnt work.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

The Mag'Har aren't at war with the other clans*, have you done any of the Horde side quests pertaining to the Mag'har? They would be more educating in this than me.

*See: Not Fel Orcs. You're really trying to screw the argument with your X and Y example, as, that won't always work, or make sense. Now, if any Orc, that remained on Outlands, avoided being corrupted by the fel energies, or weren't killed by those that were, the Mag'Har would openly welcome then. Don't forget, not all of the clans (pre-Dark Portal), were friends with eachother. Some were in all out war, others, supscious of each other, while some were in open friendships. Warsong and Bleeding Hollow for example, did not like eachother. Blackrock orcs, were reknowned for being the most bloodthirsty, unruly, and untrustworthy, but, were respected. Its how orc politics work.

In respect to the Shadowmoon Orcs, correct me if I am wrong, but the Mag'har don't like Fel Orcs who have mostly given themselves over to either the legion or the Illidari correct? If that is so, given that these fel orcs control most orc holdings outside of Nagrand, would that not be something to enter into consideration?

[Jeedup]

In respect to the Shadowmoon Orcs, correct me if I am wrong, but the Mag'har don't like Fel Orcs who have mostly given themselves over to either the legion or the Illidari correct? If that is so, given that these fel orcs control most orc holdings outside of Nagrand, would that not be something to enter into consideration?

You're not asking a question here at all, this statement makes no sense, even in regards to mine.

Let me try and be even more specific.

If a Shadowmoon Orc, uncorrupted by fel powers, still green/brown, goes to the Mag'Har for sanctuary, or admittance, they (ie:Mag'Har), would not see a problem with it. If someone voices a concern, it'd probably be addressed, but due to the already mentioned society of the orcs (mutual enemies will become allies when necessary), and the now state of affairs (being an almost endangered species ON THEIR OWN PLANET), they'd want to welcome more into the fold. Sure, internal members may have an issue (Warsong not liking Bleeding Hollow, and so on), but while that may influence internal dealings with the Mag'Har, if it gets serious, it'd be dealt outside of it (Warsong against Bleeding Hollow). Now, there are some orcs that identify ONLY as Mag'Har, Thralls grandmother for instance (name please someone?), and previously, Garrosh. Now Garrosh has moved on to larger dealings, but while still Mag'Har, is outwardly (and personally) identifying as Warsong. Its like...the United Nations for greenskins.

[Raziel]

indeed. Garrosh is classified as a Mag'hari Warsong Orc
Jorin is a Mag'hari Bleeding Hollow Orc
and so on

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

You're not asking a question here at all, this statement makes no sense, even in regards to mine.

Let me try and be even more specific.

If a Shadowmoon Orc, uncorrupted by fel powers, still green/brown, goes to the Mag'Har for sanctuary, or admittance, they (ie:Mag'Har), would not see a problem with it. If someone voices a concern, it'd probably be addressed, but due to the already mentioned society of the orcs (mutual enemies will become allies when necessary), and the now state of affairs (being an almost endangered species ON THEIR OWN PLANET), they'd want to welcome more into the fold. Sure, internal members may have an issue (Warsong not liking Bleeding Hollow, and so on), but while that may influence internal dealings with the Mag'Har, if it gets serious, it'd be dealt outside of it (Warsong against Bleeding Hollow). Now, there are some orcs that identify ONLY as Mag'Har, Thralls grandmother for instance (name please someone?), and previously, Garrosh. Now Garrosh has moved on to larger dealings, but while still Mag'Har, is outwardly (and personally) identifying as Warsong. Its like...the United Nations for greenskins.

This I can somewhat understand, but let me clarify my question.

An uncorrupted Shadowmoon Orc arrives, and is accepted by the Mag'har. Many years later, the majority of this Orc's clan consists of corrupted Fel Orcs who now serve the Illidari. Given that the clan, which holds claim to the land, is now an enemy of the Horde, how would this uncorrupted shadowmoon orc hold claim to such land, and if it cannot, then how can the Horde hold claim to such land?

[SgtSlaughter]

fel orcs claims are illegitimate by the virtue (vice?) or them being fel orcs, the only problem is that they can be a bit tough to evict.

[Jeedup]

Somewhat like what Slaughter said, as they've turned against what the orcs 'want' to be, and chose to continue the corruption by fel energies, while their claim is legitimate (ie, its their tribal land), it's also illegitimate as they've betrayed their people. Closest example I can give in Warcraft is Alterac, but not quite fitting at the same time.

Also, don't forget, that because a tribe works with, or identifies with the Mag'Har, their land does not mean it becomes Mag'Har land. Look at Rexxar and the Thunderlord Clan, very few of them are still alive, and while those few remain uncorrupted, and are still (though cant say for 100% certainty) Mag'Har, they seem to be more self-contained at the moment.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Somewhat like what Slaughter said, as they've turned against what the orcs 'want' to be, and chose to continue the corruption by fel energies, while their claim is legitimate (ie, its their tribal land), it's also illegitimate as they've betrayed their people. Closest example I can give in Warcraft is Alterac, but not quite fitting at the same time.

Also, don't forget, that because a tribe works with, or identifies with the Mag'Har, their land does not mean it becomes Mag'Har land. Look at Rexxar and the Thunderlord Clan, very few of them are still alive, and while those few remain uncorrupted, and are still (though cant say for 100% certainty) Mag'Har, they seem to be more self-contained at the moment.

The example I would probably give is that of Lordearon, where you have Lordaeronian refugees insisting that their claims to Lordearon are legitimate while the rest of the nation has moved on. I insist that if the Horde can assert a claim over lands now under the control of fel orc clans who now war with them, then the Alliance can make a legitimate claim to Lordearon as well. The trouble is, I personally don't believe either of the claims can work. Lordearon belongs to the Forsaken, just as the lands in question belong to these Fel Orc clans, and not the Horde.

[Emyi]

Aleria wins.

[Chikt]

Are Fel Orcs even a large factor anymore? I mean, given the events by the end of the Burning Crusade, they'd have to have had their numbers DECIMATED and fallen into disarray without any good leadership structure. I'd wager that would leave the Fel Orc lands wide open for the Alliance and Horde to start fighting over it - but that's not likely something we'll ever see in game (or not something we'll see in game for quite some time).

[Vakshna]

I say let thrall and Varian die fighting side by side in the fight against death wing, that would make one hell of a cinematic, and would bring peace between the horde and the allaince, untill Grom fucks it up again, whom i hope either he comes to his senses or dies by baine bloodhoof's hand for killing his father

[Jeedup]

The example I would probably give is that of Lordearon, where you have Lordaeronian refugees insisting that their claims to Lordearon are legitimate while the rest of the nation has moved on. I insist that if the Horde can assert a claim over lands now under the control of fel orc clans who now war with them, then the Alliance can make a legitimate claim to Lordearon as well. The trouble is, I personally don't believe either of the claims can work. Lordearon belongs to the Forsaken, just as the lands in question belong to these Fel Orc clans, and not the Horde.

Well, true, and good example, by the by. However, to run with your example, both the claims of the Forsaken, and the claims of Lordaeronian refugees, are legitimate. The difference between the two? One settled permanently, the other did not. Which, is somewhat similar. However, the Alliance CANNOT make a legitimate claimt o Lordaeron, only Lordaeron refugees could (Ie: Remnants of the Scarlet Crusade, and any survivors that Blizz-Lore seems to have somewhat ignored). Now, this is similar to the Mag'Har as again, they can't make a 'claim' to fel-orc clan lands, because well, it's not their buisness too. Can the clans within the Mag'Har decide they should retake those lands, for either the benefit of their race as a whole, spiritual/religious reasons, or because survivors of said clan have come forward, uncorrupted, seeking assistance. Surivors of Lordaeron would do the same, with the Alliance. But its not the Alliance/Mag'Har making the claim, it's them backing said claim with force/diplomacy/reason/cookies. Like my joking example, but still serious, they're like the United Nations of Orcs. They have their own personal reasons behind things, but when necessary, will get toghter for a common goal.

But ya know, they actually DO SOMETHING.

But the majority of this discussion has been with lore/information from the timeline of Burning Crusade, its hard to really go on what 'actually' is happening there. I have my own theories though.


Are Fel Orcs even a large factor anymore? I mean, given the events by the end of the Burning Crusade, they'd have to have had their numbers DECIMATED and fallen into disarray without any good leadership structure. I'd wager that would leave the Fel Orc lands wide open for the Alliance and Horde to start fighting over it - but that's not likely something we'll ever see in game (or not something we'll see in game for quite some time).

From what I remember, only a few clans even went fel. Shadowmoon, Dragonmaw (with non-fel guys in Azeroth), Shattered Hand (whos leader, Kargath Bladefist is the 'Warchief' of the Fel Orcs, though some orcs who were on Azeroth when the portal closed, are still loyal to the current Horde), Bleeding Hollow (PERFECT example of what I've been saying, they were basically split in two, uncorrupted, and corrupted), and Shadowmoon. Few other smaller clans were brought in as well, but they were so small, and leaderless, that they just became Fel-Orc Guard Number 4.

Black Temple had a good number of them, which would probably become a new Shattrath. The Dragonmaw and Shadowmoon outposts in that zone would also be pretty squashed I'd think, though the Dragonmaw might be abit 'diplomatic' if you take the fact they were a part of a daily questing zone to get purty dragons, anyways.

I'd assume them to be pretty much 'gone', and probably just a continuing to be a nuisance if anything. I'd love to see Outland get SOME attention in this expansion, but I know they won't, as they've said they wouldn't.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

But its not the Alliance/Mag'Har making the claim, it's them backing said claim with force/diplomacy/reason/cookies.

I'd like a cookie bidding system myself, but I think the point here is made. Neither side has a legitimate claim to the lands we're discussing, which means that in this sense, they are open. This is exactly what allowed the Alliance to assert their presence in parts of Hellfire Penninsula(Fel Orc Country), Zangarmarsh (Who owned that again?), Terrokkar (Ok, that one's iffy, but it's been there for a while), the Blade's Edge Mountains (Ogre Country), Southern Nagrand (Where it looks like there has been no conflict between the Kurenei and the Mag'har until those Blood Elves showed up...), and Shadowmoon (By all accounts, a legion/Illidari mess) without infringing upon territory controlled by the new Horde.

Now it's up to force/diplomacy/reason/cookies to hash out actual boundries. Let us hope for one of the latter three.

[Jeedup]

Eeeh, I dunno, I think I could challenge some of your examples.

AND I THINK I WILL!


I'd like a cookie bidding system myself, but I think the point here is made.

Who fucking DOESN'T like cookies?

Haters, thats who.


Neither side has a legitimate claim to the lands we're discussing, which means that in this sense, they are open.

You've triggered my trap card!

In terms of your example, of Forsaken vs. Lordaeron Refugees (Scarlet Crusade, Alliance, ect), both sides have a legitimate claim. Which, could cause problems later on, if the latter side decides to express this claim. The Forsaken have the advantage of having settled there for a long time, while the Refugees just feel like they've been forced out. Here, could be a potiental for good diplomacy, or some amazing seige warfare with cannon's, plauge barrels, and just....fucking zombie brains everywhere.

In terms of the Mag'Har/Insert lost clan here vs. Fel Orc clans, I don't think there really is a claim at all. This more seems like a spiritual/religious, and mildly political confict. The fel orcs are a walking reason for why the planet has been destroyed, working with powers and forces that betrayed them in the first place, and are hunting their uncorrputed kinsmen in the extreme. Granted, there are non-fel orcs still being greedy evil shitheads (I forget the section in Nagrand, Kil'dari orcs or something?), but they're still working towards the same goal as the fel orcs. The Mag'Har (and just orcs in general) want Outland to be their home again, so they feel they should fight for it.

In terms of Horde (including or not including the Mag'Har, but definitely an orc centered arguement) verses the Alliance for claims in, well, it can get dicey. But I still say, its an Orc planet, the Alliance was there for an attempt of localized military superiority in their aggressors backyard. Now? Those claims are illigetimate. The Alliances forces there (even with the new blood when the portal reopened), feel that well, any orc, is a bad orc. They don't seem to understand, or want to understand, the difference between the fel-orcs and non-fel orcs. That was the impression I got from the Alliance quests early on at Honor Hold, though eventually, they do get wise. But still, the attitude of 'don't know, don't care' seemed to live on. Damn you Danath Trollbane! I love your character so much, but stop being a jackass!

More below...


This is exactly what allowed the Alliance to assert their presence in parts of Hellfire Penninsula(Fel Orc Country)

As explained above, the first few Alliance outposts were military ones in the aftermath (or during really) of the Second War, to attempt to stop the orcs from coming in from their side. Now, when the portal closed, due to their own designs, these unfortunate souls were trapped there, and had to live there, for what they believed, would be the rest of their lives. It seems like they didn't expand much outside of their first few ventures. Honor Hold, Allerian Stronghold, and a few smaller ones that were eventually wiped out. Now, I'm not counting Draenei outposts, as well, they were there already. Hellfire is very much contested by MULTIPLE parties. Fel Orcs, The Horde, The Burning Legion, The Alliance, giant rock peoples, those friggin annoying bird people.


Zangarmarsh (Who owned that again?)

Mostly a mix, I don't think anyone 'owns' it really. The Horde have a large and small settlement there, of mostly trolls, the Draenei have a smaller one, with an entrance into Blade's Edge, and then the tree-huggers. It's mostly untamed mushroom wilderness.


Terrokkar (Ok, that one's iffy, but it's been there for a while)

Terrokkar's main feature is Shattrath, and has a few scattered Draenei outposts, and a few Blood Elf sections from the time when Kael brought his people across Outland to work with Illidan. I'd say its a mix of Draenei, and Mag'Har/Orc/Horde. But seems to, in current political climates, lead toward the Draenei, which now, lead toward the Alliance. Just remember though, the squid heads might have been their for awhile, but its still, not really their 'home'. But I definitely acknowledge that its their little section.


The Blade's Edge Mountains (Ogre Country)
Ogre/Gronn seem to make this, along a few sections of Nagrand, as their place of residence, but its never quite clear were their traditional home was. I'd assume it's Blade Edge, due to mostly, Gruul's Lair. Oh, how I DON'T miss that place. Also, several orc clans did, and still do (atleast one), call the section home. I'd also personally assume, that the Dragonmaw, might have also lived there for abit.


Southern Nagrand (Where it looks like there has been no conflict between the Kurenei and the Mag'har until those Blood Elves showed up...)

Perfect example of the sort of, hesitant peace, between the local orcs, and the Draenei. Velen and Thrall (hopefully not Garrosh, unless he's wisened up), should definitely have a sit down, as this could be a prime reason for peace, atleast between these groups. Nagrand is, if I remember correctly, part home to several clans, though the locations might be destroyed, the majority of the people aren't, thankfully. It seems, mostly due to Blizzards design (and scale), of Outland, that many people just think THIS is where most of the orcs were, but in reality, they really where everwhere. Are we forgetting the big BOOM that cracked the planet?


Shadowmoon (By all accounts, a legion/Illidari mess) without infringing upon territory controlled by the new Horde.

Shadowmoon is rather....fubar. It seems, atleast by the persence of a still intact Draenei outpost, and the Black Temple, to originally, have been mostly a Draenei section, originally. They could EASILY excert some form of a claim there, but I don't feel personally anyways, that those sort of actions fit with the chracteristics of that race. But, ya never know. Black Temple WAS an important part of life for them, so they just might. It's also hard to think, what once Shadowmoon looked like. I think a few clans called this section home, maybe one or two. I believe Ner'Zhuls clan did, but still, to me, feels mostly Draenei at this point.


Now it's up to force/diplomacy/reason/cookies to hash out actual boundries. Let us hope for one of the latter three.

Chocolate chip with an orange julius chaser.

[Roth'rili]

Thought I would mention that Zangar marsh was largely inhabited by the Draenei after being pushed back by the Orcs. It was said to be a dangerous and foreboding place and orcs never went deep into the Marsh. This allowed the Draenei to hide and settle in Telredor and Orebor Harborage and I guess you can count the number of Lost in there too. Since essentially they were Draenei that fell to far into the corruption. Also mention that Telredor is actually a large settlement of Draenei in Zangar, where most of the pure Draenei remained after the sacking of Shattrath. I think Velen himself lived in the "small city" before the Draenei went and took the Exodar.

This info coming from Nobundo's back story after the sacking of Shattrath and the poisoning of the Draenei by the red smoke. Just to chime in Jeedup since it didn't seem you knew much of Zangar. The trolls I believe settled their outposts there when the new horde came through the portal. Cause I don't think trolls were on Draenor.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

In terms of Horde (including or not including the Mag'Har, but definitely an orc centered arguement) verses the Alliance for claims in, well, it can get dicey. But I still say, its an Orc planet, the Alliance was there for an attempt of localized military superiority in their aggressors backyard. Now? Those claims are illigetimate. The Alliances forces there (even with the new blood when the portal reopened), feel that well, any orc, is a bad orc. They don't seem to understand, or want to understand, the difference between the fel-orcs and non-fel orcs. That was the impression I got from the Alliance quests early on at Honor Hold, though eventually, they do get wise. But still, the attitude of 'don't know, don't care' seemed to live on. Damn you Danath Trollbane! I love your character so much, but stop being a jackass!

Danath Trollbane could benefit from attending Aleria's semi-mandatory team building seminar, but I don't see why the Alliance doesn't have a legitimate claim over the territories they control in Outland. In effect, the fel orcs, and the ogres are enemies of the Horde and the Alliance. If the Alliance takes land which formerly belonged to Fel Orcs and Ogres, I don't see how it infringes upon Thrall's Horde. Nor do I see how Thrall's Horde has a legitimate claim to the entire planet.

[Jeedup]

Roth, yes, trolls came over when the portal reopened, and they're new Horde trolls (ie- Darkspear), and doubly yes, Zangar is a confusing zone on who was there primarily, and I thought of the story about Nobundo, and even Akama, but don't think its very Draenei heavy. But, thats me though. It kinda seems like everyone goes: Fuck, giant god damned mushrooms everywhere, and fucking giant god damned bugs everywhere, alright, we're not staying here long, this place smells.

Which, really, seems to be perfect for trolls sometimes.

[Jeedup]

Danath Trollbane could benefit from attending Aleria's semi-mandatory team building seminar, but I don't see why the Alliance doesn't have a legitimate claim over the territories they control in Outland. In effect, the fel orcs, and the ogres are enemies of the Horde and the Alliance. If the Alliance takes land which formerly belonged to Fel Orcs and Ogres, I don't see how it infringes upon Thrall's Horde. Nor do I see how Thrall's Horde has a legitimate claim to the entire planet.

Again, and admittedly, this is my Horde trump card, it's their god damned planet. But, again, admittedly, for the orcs. Now, sure, you can argue, then the Horde have no place on Azeroth, and they don't! Now, again, I'd point out, Thrall (though mostly for the orcs, they then picked up the trolls), moved to Kalimdor for MOSTLY, to relocate orcs out of the hair of the Humans. Yes, yes, he had a dream from Medivh for other reasons, but its still a good reason as well. NOW, YES, YOU CAN BRING UP THE FORSAKEN AND THEN THE BLOOD ELVES. But since both those races suck (kidding), but really, since they both got involved with the Horde after this grand move, it gets abit dicey and hard to go with the whole 'we moved to leave you the fuck alone' crap, plus the fact well, the Alliance (Humans and Dwarves specifically, NIght elves came later) didn't exactly leave them alone either.

Really, I don't see WHY Thrall (or just the Orcs of the Horde), cannot claim Outland for their own, either entirly (kicking anyone else out, or well, killing, but I'd doubt this, especially with the team-work for both the Black Temple, and Sunwell incidents across factions, within Shattrath), or, putting a harder hold on the Dark Portal on both sides.

Sure, me and Aleria have been going back and forth about it, but we're having fun. But I'm curious, since I don't really see a reason besides 'they're stretched thin', and 'well X might equal Y and Z but Y does not equal Z", but why DO you think they have no real claim? I know I've mentioned why I think they do.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

but why DO you think they have no real claim?

Firstly, race does not dictate nationality or political status.

Secondly, Thrall's Horde is a different political body than the first Horde.

Thirdly, the Mag'har, who are allied now with Thrall's Horde, are at odds with much of the remaining first horde, as well as Ogres and the Legion who have now moved in on the First Horde's land.

Therefore, unless we are talking about fel orcs as well, and not simply Thrall's Horde (which I've been talking about the whole time) it cannot be assumed that land that Thrall's Horde has never been able to assert control over somehow belongs to that Horde.

[Jeedup]

Firstly, race does not dictate nationality or political status.

Tell that to politicians, and see what you get!


Secondly, Thrall's Horde is a different political body than the first Horde.

Thirdly, the Mag'har, who are allied now with Thrall's Horde, are at odds with much of the remaining first horde, as well as Ogres and the Legion who have now moved in on the First Horde's land.

The first Horde doesn't even exist anymore, so this is abit moot. Even so? It's still ORC LAND. Horde or no, it's theirs, its their home, their land. If they want it, they'll take it by whatever means they feel appropriate. Just like the Alliance has been attempting, and have done, in the past. Like, South Shore and Tarren Mill. Orges as well, have a claim to the planet. All of it? Maybe not, but like the orcs, it's THEIR planet.

[/quote]Therefore, unless we are talking about fel orcs as well, and not simply Thrall's Horde (which I've been talking about the whole time) it cannot be assumed that land that Thrall's Horde has never been able to assert control over somehow belongs to that Horde.[/QUOTE]

I posted about this before, BOTH Fel Orcs, and non-fel Orcs, have a claim to the planet. Now, after that, their is an internal problem with fel vs. non-fel, but even so, still, orc planet. The Alliance took control of sections in a military action that now, is no longer validated, and could even be called 'racist', if you wanted to get even more literal. They don't belong there. The threat that brought them there, is no longer a problem. Sure, a NEW one surfaced, but that too, has been dealt with. If Night Elves can bitch about Orcs being nasty lumberjacks, then Orcs can CERTAINTLY bitch about aliens on their planet.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Tell that to politicians, and see what you get!

Here you've kind of ignored the most important part of my argument. If we were talking about the first horde, you'd have a point, but we're not. Thrall's Horde doesn't hold claim to that land because they are a different political entity than the first horde. A planet doesn't belong to a given race either, and if you still think it does, I have a bunch of Ogres and Gronn who would like to talk to you about that.

[Jeedup]

Here you've kind of ignored the most important part of my argument. If we were talking about the first horde, you'd have a point, but we're not. Thrall's Horde doesn't hold claim to that land because they are a different political entity than the first horde. A planet doesn't belong to a given race either, and if you still think it does, I have a bunch of Ogres and Gronn who would like to talk to you about that.

This makes ZERO sense.

The first Horde, wanted TO LEAVE Outland, and conquer. And it doesn't matter if its a 'different political entity', the Horde is not your 'typical political entity', they are one based on tradition, and lets not forget, some of the old leaders and warriors of the first Horde? Are now in positions of power, and in a positive light, in the current Horde. And as I mentioned, which you seem to have ignored, yes, the Ogres and Gronn have rights there, its their planet, I said this, go read it again. The difference? The majority (with some exceptions), of them, want to just eat, poop and destroy buildings, usually in various orders and sometimes all at once. Gronn's are worst.

You need to get past the 'political entity thing', as that arguement can also be said of the Alliance (excluding Draenei), there currently. Different Alliance, no right to be there either.

I seriously can't understand why you're bringing up the Old Horde without seeing that as well.

Lets not forget, the Mag'Har, and other Orcs, ya know, want their land back. I think that somewhat invalidates the Alliances claim.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

You need to get past the 'political entity thing', as that arguement can also be said of the Alliance (excluding Draenei), there currently. Different Alliance, no right to be there either.

I seriously can't understand why you're bringing up the Old Horde without seeing that as well.

Just as the Mag'har were incorporated into the Horde, the parts of the Alliance, including Honor Hold, Allerian Stronghold, and the Draenic settlements, were incorporated into the current Alliance.

However, the Fel Orcs who control much of the old orcish land have not been reintegrated into the new Horde. That is the difference.

[Jeedup]

Just as the Mag'har were incorporated into the Horde, the parts of the Alliance, including Honor Hold, Allerian Stronghold, and the Draenic settlements, were incorporated into the current Alliance.

By that reasoning then, a good section of Outland, is in Horde control, because of clans and the Mag'Har, joining the Horde.


However, the Fel Orcs who control much of the old orcish land have not been reintegrated into the new Horde. That is the difference.Its really actually quite small. A central section of Hellfire, sections within Black Temple. Which, are now well...destroyed, after Burning Crusade. Burning Legion had control over more sections than the Fel-Orcs directly did.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

By that reasoning then, a good section of Outland, is in Horde control, because of clans and the Mag'Har, joining the Horde.

The mag'hari portions, yes.

[Jeedup]

The mag'hari portions, yes.

And other clan portions, yes. :)

Remember, they don't HAVE to join Mag'Har, and when they do, their lands aren't automatically Mag'Har.

WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

And other clan portions, yes. :)

Remember, they don't HAVE to join Mag'Har, and when they do, their lands aren't automatically Mag'Har.

WE'VE BEEN OVER THIS.

Yes, we have been. When an orc of a clan which later turns Fel Orc joins the Mag'har, the lands of the Fel Orc clan do not assimilate to the Mag'har, and by extension, do not assimilate into the Horde.

[Jeedup]

Yes, we have been. When an orc of a clan which later turns Fel Orc joins the Mag'har, the lands of the Fel Orc clan do not assimilate to the Mag'har, and by extension, do not assimilate into the Horde.

Though, as of yet, a FULL Fel Orc clan hasn't attempted and probably wouldn't. But survivors, and non-fel, have joined, either already in the current Horde with Thrall, or on Outland, and then joinging the current Horde. Some fel-orc clans have just full abandoned their old territory, to move almost primarily, into Hellfire Citadel. See, the Mag'Har are a POST shattering of Draenor group, while yes, this example works (even with my extentsion of it, go teamwork!), it is also a tad confusing, as the clan wouldn't (or more likely, PROBABLY wouldn't, as the fel-corruption is VERY severe, but I'd think it might be possible for some to try and make things 'right' after the Burning Crusades influence has now mostly been wiped out), join as fel-orcs. And if they became fel orcs AFTER (again, fairly unlikely, as the basis of the Mag'Har are orcs free of corruption and taint, which then makes it odd if a fel-orc clan would join later, but again, its a rather rare possibilty), they'd be either excommunitcated from the group, forcebly removed, or just plain killed off.

However, your example, is of a singlular orc, which I know I've mentioned, though I'd have to re-read it, unfortunatly I type and think so fast I occasionally forget to add important points, which, can occasionally (or really, all the time), make my text confusing, but again, if a singular orc joins, yes, the ORC, is Mag'Har, then Horde (if he wants, but orcs are ones of tradition, so they'd most likely all join) later on. If a large enough, or governing portions, of the clan join, even if some, or a larger portion go fel by accident, or purpose, yes, the clans claims, are still legitimate, due to the nature of the corruption, its a third-party attempt to dissolve and destroy. Ya know, like the U.S.A. interfering in other countries politics, its just a no no, but we do it anyways! Then we get pissy when we find out other countries doing the same! Its a no no, but they do it anyways!

But anyways, looking over lore, it looks like the few FULL clans, there are really only 3, as others either remained old Horde, joined the Dark Horde with Rend and Maim, or got seperated so badly, like the Dragonmaw, they started doing their own thing, or sections join Thralls Horde. It seems most of them? Don't really care about their old lands, and want to fortify as a stronger military force, and going on older, and darker traditions that started the original conquest of Azeroth. Most relocate to Hellfire Citadel, while the Shadowmoon seem to be one of the only ones to really stay at their old homes.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

If a larger portion of the clan goes, we have to examine the status of the land as well. For example, the Mag'har join the Horde, they have land that they assert sovereignty over, therefore, that land goes to the Horde. However, as you've mentioned, many orc clans:
Don't really care about their old lands, or, as I would assert, sold them out to the legion during the first and second wars. This opens the door for the Alliance to step in, taking lands which belonged to the orc clans before their corruption.

To close on this argument, I would love to see something happen to outland. If not something more, hopefully at least some kind of omage to that one scene in "Majora's Mask" (involving the town guard, the mayor, and the carnival staff).

[Jeedup]

Many FEL ORC CLANS don't, thats the important part. The others, most certainly do.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Many FEL ORC CLANS don't, thats the important part. The others, most certainly do.

Regardless, many orc clans still sold their lands out to the legion, or left them to the Fel Orcs. Thrall's Horde is a more recent political body, which doesn't have any connection, outside of the Mag'har, to the lands we're talking about.

If they want lands that, as a political body, they never held claim to, they're going to have to negociate. (We can put Garrosh across from Trollbane, coax Me'dan to moderate the meeting, and see how it turns out. Again, following the following format: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yzH_MnJBeY )

[Jeedup]

Regardless, many orc clans still sold their lands out to the legion, or left them to the Fel Orcs. Thrall's Horde is a more recent political body, which doesn't have any connection, outside of the Mag'har, to the lands we're talking about.

Gonna have to ask for examples here, cause, I have no idea you're talking about. I still say, they do have the claim, but thats me.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Gonna have to ask for examples here, cause, I have no idea you're talking about. I still say, they do have the claim, but thats me.

I'm referring to Hellfire Penninsula and Shadowmoon specifically, as for Zangarmarsh, there aren't even traces of orcs left there. The Blade's Edge Mountains became the property of the Bladespire Ogre clan after they exterminated the Thunderlord Clan. Terokkar is debatable, but apart from the northern parts of Nagrand, and the immediate area around several horde settlements, I don't see where the New Horde can assert a claim over Outland.

[Jeedup]

I'm referring to Hellfire Penninsula and Shadowmoon specifically, as for Zangarmarsh, there aren't even traces of orcs left there. The Blade's Edge Mountains became the property of the Bladespire Ogre clan after they exterminated the Thunderlord Clan. Terokkar is debatable, but apart from the northern parts of Nagrand, and the immediate area around several horde settlements, I don't see where the New Horde can assert a claim over Outland.

Hellfire mostly has just the Hellfire Citadel as Fel Orc, and its hard to say if any clan really had land there, except the small outpost of Mag'Har (the first ones you meet questing Horde side), and the new Horde Outpost opposite Honor Hold.

Lore wise, there was supposed to be new villages built up around the Dark Portal, I'd imagine them still there, but, destroyed with all those fat Pit Lords that keep popping up.

Blades edge is not entirely in Orge control, and the Thunderlord still somewhat exists but in very limited numbers, and in one quest, it was hinted that they're hiding, and Rexxar is there also, along with another Mag'Har outpost.

Terrokar had one orc town there, but it got over run with Ogres, another good quest there, even names the clan too, I just can't recall it.

Nagrand, but, sorry, Nagrand is orc land, through and through. Though, as we've beaten it into the ground, Kruenai(sp), and the original crash landing of the Draenai are their, and well, I feel its fine for them to stay, they've been there a long time too, but still, its definitley Orc land.

I don't see how you can say Orcs (and then by extentsion the Horde), cannot have a claim on Outland. How CAN they not? How can the Alliance? Just by saying its theirs, doesn't mean they will wipe out the other sentient, and NATIVE species. There are some quests associated with Ogrila, and in Garadar, of making a peace with the Orgres, and probably trying to permantly ousting the Gronn, as they've ALWAYS tried to destroy both the orcs, and the ogres. The Alliance, straight up, do not belong there. but then we run into a tricky slope, as the Draenei, by extension of having lived there for a good period of time, do, and in some aspects, have attempted peaceful co-habitation with the Orcs in the past, as well as being influenced in such by the Naaru.

How I reason the Horde DO have a claim to the planet, and not just saying Orcs, is simple. The Horde, from its orgins, and into now, has always, been Orc run. Its an Orcish tradition that while it began in blood, and with evil intentions, has changed to a positive. Outland, is an Orc planet. They were (in all the lore I've ever seen), the prodominant sentient species on that planet. The Horde did exist then, and while yes, AGAIN, it was the bad one, it was still there, in history. Now today, we have seperated Orc Clans coming togther to work togther as the Mag'Har. The Mag'Har meet the Horde, send messages to their leader, and, lo and behold, both leaders share a family tie. But not only that, they're ORCS! They want to move on in a positive way, they want to get back to what they once were before the influence of Ner'Zhul, Blackhand, and the Legion. It IS their home, and its been nearly destroyed by the Legions magics, the misguided attempts of Ner'Zhul, and Kadgar interfering all at once. I feel I've justified why their claims are legitimate, but you keep saying their not, but don't offer anything as to why except fel orcs, orges, and the Alliance being there.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Jeedup, I think we've reached an impasse. It is my position that Thrall's Horde, as a political entity cannot lay claim to Outland as sovereign, because Thrall's Horde has never had sovereign land in Outland. The previous horde did, but the previous horde is an entirely different story. Any land they have now they have by the Mag'har, or this-land-belongs-to-Spain-esque claiming. The Alliance has also claimed lands with this-land-belongs-to-Spain-esque claiming, as well as running out Fel Orcs, Legion forces, and Ogres from the lands around their settlements.

You seem to be coming from a cultural, this-land-once-belonged-to-my-grandfather-before-my-father-went-evil standpoint, which is fine, but I do not recognize that as a claim to sovereignty, especially not for a new political entity. To me it's like a former British Colonist laying claim to Yorkshire ten years after achieving independence.

[Raziel]

That's only because you didn't do the Hero of the Mag'har questline.

The very fact that the Greatmother, the Matriarch of all Mag'har, is the mother of Durotan, and thus shares direct blood with Go'el Frostwolf, negates your argument.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

That's only because you didn't do the Hero of the Mag'har questline.

The very fact that the Greatmother, the Matriarch of all Mag'har, is the mother of Durotan, and thus shares direct blood with Go'el Frostwolf, negates your argument.

I do not see how. Niether of the two politically control all of Outland. One leads the new Horde, a new political entity, and the other is a part of the Mag'har, a political entity which holds claim to precious few lands.

[SgtSlaughter]

Oshu'Gun makes southern Nagrand not belong to the orcs or the draenei. It's mutual land.

[Jeedup]

Mutual impass sure, but still, a lovely discussion, however, you've ignored my challenge as to why the Alliance has, and I equally challenge you to not include 'Cause the Draenei are there', because if that was acceptable, then Horde claims on Outland would be.

Oh and, I just remembered, I could argue that the current Horde still has ties and political claims as its previous incarnation.

One word.

Doomhammer.

He rightfully gave his position as Warchief to Thrall, and all it pertained to. Which, could include land and titles in Outland. There was still contact between Azeroth and Draenor on the Orc side, so it could be claimed that alone, could bring in a claim as well.

But still, MY CHALLENGE STANDS!

[SgtSlaughter]

Yeah, Doomhammer was the legitimate leader of the old horde, he handed reigns of the entirety thereof to a one Mr. Thrall Durotanson, making him warchief of the horde, such as it was at the time. The fact that Thrall molded the horde into something completely different from the original horde does not predicate the absence of legitimate claims to the horde territory from eons ago.
Consider it outside of any game context: There is a group who holds claim to a great amount of land, the majority of said group leaves the area to perform acts wholly irrelevant to the metaphor, the group has leadership changes, culminating with a leadership change to someone who was born outside of the original holdings of the group, but who upholds all of the traditional beliefs of the original group, he and his ilk return to the area to find it invaded, he repels the invasion and seeks to return the land to its original possessors, claim=legit

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

There is just one problem with the argument. (aside from the fact that it validates the Stormpike position in Alterac Valley quite nicely) Doomhammer asserted control over the Horde in Azeroth, then as a military leader. While Doomhammer's people, eventually defeated, were chased back to the Dark Portal, he himself was captured.

This is the point in time where the Horde splits. The Dark Portal is destroyed, and Ner'zhul is the Warchief of the Horde in Draenor. After Doomhammer's escape, he remains the Warchief of the Horde, but only the Azerothian horde. He has no control whatsoever of anything in Draenor. Ner'zhul does, and we all know what happens to him. After his death, Magtheridon asserts himself as the lord of Draenor, rallying numerous surviving orc clans under him. It is at this point that the Horde of Draenor is destroyed, leaving only a few surviving clans.

The other Horde, born from the ashes of the old, out of the internment camps of Lordaeron, while having ties to, and resembling the old horde, is a new horde entirely.

[Jeedup]

It wouldn't validate the Stormpike in AV at all, as the Frostwolves split from the Horde then, nearly instantly from walking through the Dark Portal, when Thrall had left Durnholde, he stumbled on them, then Doomhammer arrived, and then it all came tumbling togther.

YOU'RE STILL AVOIDING MY CHALLENGE ALERIA!

You're a chicken accountant, thats what.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

It wouldn't validate the Stormpike in AV at all, as the Frostwolves split from the Horde then, nearly instantly from walking through the Dark Portal, when Thrall had left Durnholde, he stumbled on them, then Doomhammer arrived, and then it all came tumbling togther.

YOU'RE STILL AVOIDING MY CHALLENGE ALERIA!

You're a chicken accountant, thats what.

Explain to me how I'm avoiding your challenge? I have pointed out that the Horde of Draenor was dissolved after Ner'zhul was captured by the legion and turned into the Lich King. Doomhammer lost his army at the Burning Steppes, being taken captive as his people fled back to Draenor. The Dark Portal was closed, Ner'zhul was captured by the legion, and many orc clans submitted themselves to Magtheridon.

When the portal reopened, the Alliance took control of former settlements, and made new ones from land which the Orcish clans had ceded to Magtheridon. They invaded, and took control of lands controlled by the Legion, the Illidari who deposed Magtheridon, or, in two specific cases, the Bladefist Ogre clan. However, due to the dissolusion of the Horde of Draenor, and the subsequent ceding of much of thier lands to Magtheridon, the Alliance never invaded Horde land, but asserted standing claims over land which formerly belonged to the enemies of the current Horde.

If the Azerothian New Horde, founded by Doomhammer and led by Thrall, wishes to claim lands that the Old Horde on Draenor ceded to the legion, then they have to A) Drive the Legion and the Illidari from the lands that the Alliance don't control and B) Negociate with the Alliance to get them to cede the lands that they've claimed or C) Engage in a war of aggression against the Alliance settlements.

Edit: On the subject of Alterac Valley. The argument that I saw was: The Orcs left Draenor[/COLOR], the Alliance moved in, but because the Orcs still hold claim to the land (I dispute this), the Alliance is in the wrong. This logic could easily be applied to Alterac Valley as well: The Dwarves left Alterac Valley (I dispute this), the Frostwolves moved in, but because the Stormpikes still hold claim to the land, the Frostwolves are in the wrong.

[Jeedup]

Sorry, but, if you're going to say the previous Horde does not have ties with the current, same goes, if not more so, for the Alliance. And the Horde, should not have to 'negotiate' for those lands, they have no right to them either. So, I'm scratching my head why you seem to think one example is 'right' while the other is 'wrong'.

[Jeedup]

I also don't think the Dwarves were ever in Alterac Valley in the first place, as it is in territory that once belonged to a Human Kingdom. Now sure, several hundred years ago, a small group would have been there, but that doesn't mean its some wayward kingdom. If the arguement against claims of ancestry won't work in Outland, same goes to this snowy capped shithole.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I also don't think the Dwarves were ever in Alterac Valley in the first place, as it is in territory that once belonged to a Human Kingdom. Now sure, several hundred years ago, a small group would have been there, but that doesn't mean its some wayward kingdom. If the arguement against claims of ancestry won't work in Outland, same goes to this snowy capped shithole.

Should I link the WoWwiki article again? The Alterac Mountains are also referred to as "the Dwarf Highlands". There is a reason for this.

[Vyn]

Every time I see this thread pop up, I wonder:

How in the heck did a joke about Thrall dying to prevent Deathwing from destroying the world turn into a debate about the claims of the Alliance vs. the claims of the Horde to the land of Azeroth and Draenor?

I imagine it somehow got there in the first three pages or so, but I find it much more interesting to simply speculate on it.

[EnheilRas]

Should I link the WoWwiki article again? The Alterac Mountains are also referred to as "the Dwarf Highlands". There is a reason for this.

No, the eastern range where the Hinterlands are actually the Dwarf Highlands, and called "Northereon".

[Jeedup]

Should I link the WoWwiki article again? The Alterac Mountains are also referred to as "the Dwarf Highlands". There is a reason for this.

I think this is an area where Blizzard fucked up in their lore. As the Northern section of the Eastern Kingdoms, is a mainly human area. I think it's really just an ancestral claim, from several thousand years ago. If you look at the game map (poor as it is), theres human settlements everywhere, with no real Dwarven sections. Granted, where AV is, isn't even on the map. It was most likely just a way to involve the Dwarves and the Orcs (specifically the Frostwolves, who were mostly ignored in the game).

Outland for Orcs, I say.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I think this is an area where Blizzard fucked up in their lore. As the Northern section of the Eastern Kingdoms, is a mainly human area. I think it's really just an ancestral claim, from several thousand years ago. If you look at the game map (poor as it is), theres human settlements everywhere, with no real Dwarven sections. Granted, where AV is, isn't even on the map. It was most likely just a way to involve the Dwarves and the Orcs (specifically the Frostwolves, who were mostly ignored in the game).

http://www.wowwiki.com/Alterac_Valley


The valleys of Alterac are also sometimes referred to as the "Dwarf Highlands" — for example, "Frost Wolf was sent into the Dwarf Highlands in the mountains". – Bill Roper[6][2]

I'm not sure about that, given as well that the Stormpikes hold the surrounding valleys as well. I'm also looking at Dun Baldar and Stonehearth Villiage - entire towns with stone buildings which couldn't have gone up quickly.


Outland for Orcs, I say.

That's a great campaign slogan, but after the division of the Horde which I mentioned earlier, the Alliance settlements in no way infringe upon Horde lands. Therefore the Horde will need to either recognize their right to be there, or negociate for the cessation of that land.

[Anthek]

http://www.wowwiki.com/Alterac_Valley



I'm not sure about that, given as well that the Stormpikes hold the surrounding valleys as well. I'm also looking at Dun Baldar and Stonehearth Villiage - entire towns with stone buildings which couldn't have gone up quickly.



That's a great campaign slogan, but after the division of the Horde which I mentioned earlier, the Alliance settlements in no way infringe upon Horde lands. Therefore the Horde will need to either recognize their right to be there, or negociate for the cessation of that land.

You're selectively quoting from an outdated source (the old Warcraft RPG books, which recently are constantly retconned, and the dropped Warcraft Adventure game). This is also contradicting what the article says earlier on.


After Thrall's triumphant uniting of the clans, the Frostwolves, now led by the orc shaman (http://www.wowwiki.com/Shaman) Drek'Thar, chose to remain in the valley they had for so long called their home. In recent times, however, the relative peace of the Frostwolves has been challenged by the arrival of the Dwarven (http://www.wowwiki.com/Dwarven) Stormpike Expedition (http://www.wowwiki.com/Stormpike_Expedition). The Stormpike are only recent arrivals, according to this paragraph. The Dwarves only argue to it being their land for the presence of Titan relics, due to "Ironforge's sovereign imperialistic imperative" decreed by Magni.

[Jeedup]

That's a great campaign slogan, but after the division of the Horde which I mentioned earlier, the Alliance settlements in no way infringe upon Horde lands. Therefore the Horde will need to either recognize their right to be there, or negociate for the cessation of that land.

Simple.

They have no right to be there.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Simple.

They have no right to be there.

You have thus far failed to show how your claim is valid. The Alliance took lands held by the enemies of both the Alliance and the Horde, namely in the form of lands held by Fel Orc clans which ceded themselves to the Legion, or Ogre Clans who control Blade's Edge Mountains.

Again, Thrall's Horde holds no soveriegn claim to the lands in question, so in the context of a Horde vs. Alliance discussion, I don't know from where you get the validity for your statement.

[Raziel]

Also, Bill Roper left Blizzard to start up his failed company Flagship Studios (who's only release was HellGate London); Roper was lead on Blizzard North; his expertise was on the Diablo franchise he created and maintained, not WarCraft.

When FSS was Deep-6'd, Roper was picked up by Cryptic Studios, and is a major figure in Champions Online. His words on WarCraft, a product he had no hands in at all, are not definitive at all.

[Jeedup]

So, Orcs have every right to take land in Eastern Kingdoms, such as, Alterac Valley, because they took the land that was, left alone, and unused. Then they have every right to stay in areas such as Tarren Mill.

I also find you're reasoning that the difference between the Old Horde, and the New Horde, as rather convoluted, and you've not really convinced me that the orcs DON'T have a full right to the diminshed lands and resources, OF THEIR OWN HOMELAND.

If the humans, dwarves, and various other Alliance centered races can bitch and moan that the Orcs have no right to be in sections of the Eastern Kingdoms, or in extension the Horde as whole with considerations toward the Blood Elves and the Forsaken, but the Blood Elves make that arguement a hard one, as well, they've been their for a very long time, they've only just recently switched sides, then the Alliance as well, has no right to stay in Outland.

And I don't see anywhere, when looking at Outland, areas that the Alliance 'took land from enemies of both sides', don't take this personally, but I kinda think you're making this up, unless you've read something, of which I'd like to see. Honor Hold, been there since the Alliances invasion of Draenor, along with the other outpost in Hellfire that was destroyed. I don't (for either side), count the smaller little hubs, as those just seem like camps made temporarly. Alerian Stronghold in Terrokar, also a invasion outpost, the various Draenei outposts in Outland, have I would assume, been there since they first arrived. Wildhammer Stronghold, I'd assume is also an invasion outpost due to the lore character that runs it, but if someone has more info on that, I'd take that back. The only two places I am unsure of, is the Night Elf outpost, Sylvannar, and Toshey Station in Blades Edge. All the rest, are settlements either already there when established as a invading force (which is now invalidated as no longer being at open war with the Horde, and if we use some modern examples, would be demanded to be torn down, but modern examples don't always work), or were settlements by the Draenei.

The basis is, if Humans (going by the old history of WarCraft), feel so offended, and disrespected of Orcs having invaded their planet to conquest, and though they've -attempted- to make amends on it, then how come its acceptable for the Alliance to hold territory in the orcs DESTROYED homeland? Azeroth is fine and dandy, gets alittle charred up by the big bad Deathwing, but Draenor is shattered, but still alive.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

So, Orcs have every right to take land in Eastern Kingdoms, such as, Alterac Valley, because they took the land that was, left alone, and unused. Then they have every right to stay in areas such as Tarren Mill.

In respect to Alterac Valley, I think that a lot of the information I've been putting out is being thrown out prematurely. Parts of the RTS books were retconned, but that doesn't mean that any information coming from those books is automatically invalid. As for Bill Roper, Warcraft may not be his area of expertise, but if he's mentioning Dwarf Highlands, and no one has come along and said "he's just full of it", I think it should be noted.

If I didn't believe the Dwarves held claim to that land, I would say that the Dwarves should leave. The problem is, I'm not as convinced as most of you are that the Stormpikes don't own the land.


I also find you're reasoning that the difference between the Old Horde, and the New Horde, as rather convoluted, and you've not really convinced me that the orcs DON'T have a full right to the diminshed lands and resources, OF THEIR OWN HOMELAND.

I can put this rather simply: Race =/= Political Entity. Political entities control land, not races. For the orcs, after Doomhammer's defeat in the Burning Steppes and his subsequent capture, most of his armies fled behind the Dark Portal, and were under the control of Ner'zhul. This is Horde 1. After Doomhammer's escape, he, with the help of Thrall and the Frostwolves rescue orcs from internment camps, creating Horde 2. Most of Horde 1 was broken and scattered following Ner'zhul's capture, much of Horde 1 gives itself to Mag'theridon, effectively ceding their lands to the legion. Horde 2 meanwhile, has never claimed any of those lands. The fact that they grew up there doesn't factor into the equation, because they are a different political entity. This is what I have been driving at the whole time.


If the humans, dwarves, and various other Alliance centered races can bitch and moan that the Orcs have no right to be in sections of the Eastern Kingdoms, or in extension the Horde as whole with considerations toward the Blood Elves and the Forsaken, but the Blood Elves make that arguement a hard one, as well, they've been their for a very long time, they've only just recently switched sides, then the Alliance as well, has no right to stay in Outland.

You're assuming that I'm the one making these arguments. I'm angry that the Forsaken are killing wantonly in the Alterac Highlands and in Hillsbrad, but I'm not saying that the Forsaken should be pushed out of Lordaeron, or that the Blood Elves all should die.


And I don't see anywhere, when looking at Outland, areas that the Alliance 'took land from enemies of both sides', don't take this personally, but I kinda think you're making this up, unless you've read something, of which I'd like to see.

I do take this personally, because this is a low tactic. Stating that the other side is lying when you lack an argument is not good form. So we're clear, however:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Orgrim_Doomhammer

Nevertheless, Lothar's death did not have the effect that Doomhammer intended. Rather than being demoralized, the Alliance - led by Lothar's lieutenant, Turalyon - rallied, whipped into a frenzy that shocked even the Warchief himself and all but destroyed Doomhammer's forces, chasing them back to the Dark Portal. Orgrim himself was defeated and captured by Turalyon, soon after Lothar's death.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II:_Beyond_the_Dark_Portal
Ner'zhul takes over the orcish hordes of Draenor. This page also mentions his capture.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Magtheridon
Magtheridon arrives after Draenor's cataclysm, and rallies the surviving orc clans (obviously minus the Mag'har) to him.

Magtheridon is of course, defeated by the Illidari, which effectively transfers that land to them. Quests in Hellfire and Shadowmoon also suggest that many of these orcs joined the Illidari. Others were abducted from a nearby Mag'hari villiage.

[Jeedup]

In respect to Alterac Valley, I think that a lot of the information I've been putting out is being thrown out prematurely. Parts of the RTS books were retconned, but that doesn't mean that any information coming from those books is automatically invalid. As for Bill Roper, Warcraft may not be his area of expertise, but if he's mentioning Dwarf Highlands, and no one has come along and said "he's just full of it", I think it should be noted.

If I didn't believe the Dwarves held claim to that land, I would say that the Dwarves should leave. The problem is, I'm not as convinced as most of you are that the Stormpikes don't own the land.

Thats because, theres no record, outside of AV (which just may be a game mechanic thing), that says they ever migrated that far north, settled, and STAYED there. Thats the key. If there was a PERMANENT STILL OCCUPIED settlement, close to the Frostwolves, than okay, its an issue. However, the area that they did settle (Frostwolves), was isolated, and deliberatly out of reach of any foreign power. This is explained in Lord of the Clans, theres no mention of Dwarves anywhere near them.

Now, what seems to make MORE sense is, several generations ago, a few dwarves did settle, died out, and somewhere, some guy found a dear diary entry, and instantly Dwarves claim it as their own. It's been done, and has been done before. The Dwarves have no right to be in the Barrens, but yet, there they are, almost unopposed too. Why? THERE ARE POSSIBLE EARTHEN ARTIFACTS THERE, SO BY RIGHTS WE SHOULD BE THERE! Its how their political system, and cultural system works.




I can put this rather simply: Race =/= Political Entity. Political entities control land, not races. For the orcs, after Doomhammer's defeat in the Burning Steppes and his subsequent capture, most of his armies fled behind the Dark Portal, and were under the control of Ner'zhul. This is Horde 1. After Doomhammer's escape, he, with the help of Thrall and the Frostwolves rescue orcs from internment camps, creating Horde 2. Most of Horde 1 was broken and scattered following Ner'zhul's capture, much of Horde 1 gives itself to Mag'theridon, effectively ceding their lands to the legion. Horde 2 meanwhile, has never claimed any of those lands. The fact that they grew up there doesn't factor into the equation, because they are a different political entity. This is what I have been driving at the whole time.

You're race=/=political entity arguement is true, IN THE REAL WORLD. Remember, this is a fictional universe, with people and governments with drives that while may be similar to real world instances, but they will also be driven by desires and motives that may not be within our social norms any more. For example, the Dwarven situation I mentioned above, and to use a real world example, Native Americans. Many (if not all), Native American tribes that struggle with becoming Federally recognized, usually start their arguement with 'our lands were stolen', or 'our ancient lands should be ours again'. It's said, cause well, its true. It's not to dissimilar from the Orcs. It IS their home, they WERE displaced by multiple-means from it, now they come back, and it's not only destroyed, corrupted, but seized by multiple enemies on various fronts. Not only that, but a previous enemy, with leaders known for their hatred of their kind (and yes, Horde have them as well, and in some cases just as bad if not worse), now playing watch dog on their homeland because 'they just might lose it again'.


You're assuming that I'm the one making these arguments. I'm angry that the Forsaken are killing wantonly in the Alterac Highlands and in Hillsbrad, but I'm not saying that the Forsaken should be pushed out of Lordaeron, or that the Blood Elves all should die.

Its arguement for arguement sake, and their still valid points, as some Alliance views are similar to this arguement in terms of those races, and their placement on the Eastern Kingdoms.


I do take this personally, because this is a low tactic. Stating that the other side is lying when you lack an argument is not good form. So we're clear, however:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Orgrim_Doomhammer


http://www.wowwiki.com/Warcraft_II:_Beyond_the_Dark_Portal
Ner'zhul takes over the orcish hordes of Draenor. This page also mentions his capture.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Magtheridon
Magtheridon arrives after Draenor's cataclysm, and rallies the surviving orc clans (obviously minus the Mag'har) to him.

Magtheridon is of course, defeated by the Illidari, which effectively transfers that land to them. Quests in Hellfire and Shadowmoon also suggest that many of these orcs joined the Illidari. Others were abducted from a nearby Mag'hari villiage.

Well you shouldn't take it personally, as I didn't call you a liar, I questioned the information you were stating. Thats the part of a debate, you've done it in similar ways to me, and I just responsed, again, its part of a debate.

And again, none of those sources really state definitivly lands lost by the Orcs, now in hands of the Alliance, or were taken from the Legion or Illidari, that were previously in control by the Orcs. The only zone I would agree with, is Shadowmoon Valley, but those clans, were fully Fel Orcs, or a vast majority. All the others I mentioned in my example, were specific, and again, all pre-shattering of Draenor. But, to play devils advocate, that is going off the game map, and most in-game based lore around those areas and quests, the visual representation of Outland is rather small, but at the same time, it is what we have to go off of. It's mostly just stating, clans that fully gave themselves to the Legions, lost their lands, and really doesn't help your side, but, to be clear, doesn't really help mine either.

I think the issue is, while you follow politics and economics well, in the real world, that can often burden you down with examples and relations in thoughts to the WarCraft universe. Thats not a negative critism, something I've noticed. After a while, you (royal you not specifc) have to get in the eyes and minds of these fiction races, and their motives. I mean, you can't really think like specifc political and economic examples in terms of like, the Trolls, or the Tauren. Those are not 'savage' or 'uneducated' species, they merely just do things their way, with their own brand of politics in mind.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I think the issue is, while you follow politics and economics well, in the real world, that can often burden you down with examples and relations in thoughts to the WarCraft universe. Thats not a negative critism, something I've noticed. After a while, you (royal you not specifc) have to get in the eyes and minds of these fiction races, and their motives. I mean, you can't really think like specifc political and economic examples in terms of like, the Trolls, or the Tauren. Those are not 'savage' or 'uneducated' species, they merely just do things their way, with their own brand of politics in mind.

I'm going to continue mostly on this because if this point isn't addressed, we are just going to run around in circles to the end of time.

The claim that "this works in the real world, but it doesn't work in a fantasy world" is only valid if there is specific evidence to show that the discussion point in question indeed doesn't work in the fantasy world. For example, chemically, transmutation is impossible, but in World of Warcraft, it IS possible. Here we have a direct contradiction of real world scientific law.

Addressing economics first: As Hayek reminded us "In economics you can never establish a truth once and for all but have always to convince every generation anew." A prime example of this is how I often find myself having to debate those who believe that economics may be "suspended" on account of culture, or governmental system. Those things may alter the inputs of the equation, but they do not change the equation's composition. You're just plugging in a different "x".

As for the Outland argument. Let me simply say this: You once owned a house, twenty years ago before the bank foreclosed on it. You've been living elsewhere during that time. Meanwhile, I purchased the house, and have been living in it for several years. Yesterday, you came to my door, and demanded my house on the grounds that you once lived there, and that your family is buried there. I would certainly be happy to sell the land and the house back to you, but instead, you claim I have no right to be there, and that I should leave without recieving a cent from you. Naturally, I am going to say that you're full of it, and you have another thing coming if you think I am going to give away my house.

The situation is not all that dissimilar from the one we are presented with in the case of Outland.

[SgtSlaughter]

except the bank didn't foreclose on draenor, it got ripped apart via dimensional portals.