All instances now 25-man

[Shadowspeak]

I don't have a link, but a freind of mine showed me that every instance after the Expansion will be 25-manable.

Which, by the way, OWNS.

[Keraph]

Word. It's not retroactive to the old 40-mans, but they've said that they have no plans for further 40 man raid zones.

[Shadowspeak]

*dances*

[Abric]

Just keep in mind that the raiding will go the way of ZG, AQ, BWL, and Naxx.

There will be the spank and tank... but chances are it'll be a lot more interactive. So the folk who can't get their heads together for a Molten Core run or a jaunt through Scholomance? Well... trial by fire.

...

There better be a giant mushroom we have to fight, though. I want vengenance! VENGENANCE!

[Sanrin]

Ive been planning for this one for a while...and let me tell you this is something I am definitely excited for. HOWEVER we gotta keep in mind its a double edged sword too. The main thing im worried about is, progress. Being the leader of an endgame guild, beating bosses and getting my friends equipment is #1 to everything else...however the one thing that continues to worry me is the combination of loot drops, level requirements for said zones, and respawn timers. For example, the tower of midev(sp) is said to be on a one month respawn, for a 25 man instance.

One month? After one month of running BWL most guilds clear the instance in a day, neigh 3-4 hours. These instances have a one week respawn...so does that mean that (at worst) this place is going to be a 12-16 hour instance after inital learning? Also...this place is so extensive (and allegedly difficult) that the loot will be on the brink of madness in quality. Bringing the instances down to 25 mannable content is a FANTASTIC improvement...but im worried to all hell about everything else. This game is already gear intensive enough, i dont need trash mobs dropping Might of Menethil and bosses casually throwing Death Stars down.

[Nadea]

I am really REALLY excited for 25-mans. While 40 mans are fun...they can be too chaotic sometimes and I KNOW people feel like they aren't importatnt to the group when there are 39 others there. I LOVE 20 mans...everyone is a crutial part of the process, and its a much more controllable group. So I think 25 mans will be a nice balance between the two.

And I doubt the Tower will be on a month timer...it may be more than a week, because it will most likley take longer than a week to clear...but it won't be a month.

[Shadowspeak]

Sanrin, your the leader of ED?

[Sanrin]

That I am. I also think that the setting of instance levels to ez, is lame. Medium(normal)-Hard...thats cool. But easy? That makes me wanna die.

[Tillna]

Think like this.

New guild, jsut getting into Endgame..need an easier time.

There you go.

Also, this way Pugs can be done

[Vuudu]

I am ok with the changeover to 25 man instances, so long as they don't nerf the old 40 man instances. Honestly, I think that both types should be in the game - so long as the "best" loot is not reserved for the folks in the biggest guilds.

I have a blast on MC runs. Just because there are 39 other people doesn't make your role any less valuable or critical. Ask the guy who got tossed into the whelp pits about how vital one person can be. But, it is a bit unfair that to get all that sweet sweet MC loot, you have to be part of a large guild or an association like THEGA or TNRaiders. Just like it isn't cool that the only way to get sweet PvP gear is to sell your life away for a few months. Of course, that is changing now too. :)

I'd also caution you Zus about capping your growth at 35 people so you can do 25 man instances all the time. It is really hard to get 25 people together at the same time, especially when some of them insist on having real lives. I'd say that 50 people would be a good number for you to have, so that only 1/2 have to show up to do a raid.

Unless, of course, you make raiding mandatory.

[Zasein]

Unless, of course, you make raiding mandatory.

I would quit. :P

I'm sure they'll work out kinks in the system. I like how they have winged instances, my favorite instancing period was my 35-45th levels. Because of scarlet monestary. I could grab a pug and do cathedrel or armory all the way through without losing anyone, because they only took 45mins. I also liked the simi-linear setup of those dungions, it was easy to navigate. Places like BRD are sprawling labriniths that would take 8+ hours to clear compleatly. The only problem was the respawns. Instances should never respawn unless you reset them in my opinion.

[Fallacy]

Just keep in mind that the raiding will go the way of ZG, AQ, BWL, and Naxx.

There will be the spank and tank... but chances are it'll be a lot more interactive. So the folk who can't get their heads together for a Molten Core run or a jaunt through Scholomance? Well... trial by fire.

...

There better be a giant mushroom we have to fight, though. I want vengenance! VENGENANCE!

Meet the Fungal Giant.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/Angstflamme/FungalGiant.jpg

[Karkarov]

Just remember that are you progress raids get hard. In bwl one person making one mistake can wipe everyone. Every raid since has gotten harder. If you think they will be less gear/strategy intensive just because they are 25 man you may be in for a rude awakening. Tier 3 is still in naxxramas not some level 60 25/5 man from BC. And i dont see anyone going in tempest keep and getting anything other than spanked with less than tier 3.

[Abric]

I doubt it'll be that hard Karkarov, but... that is a valid statement. While things have changed, I still stick by Blizzard's statement at BLIZZCON that level 70 greens will be better than epics in Blackwing Lair.

Heh, and in reference to raids.. Molten Core isn't even in the equation. The best thing about the expansion, to me, is making Molten Core another Sunken Temple - you go there only if you need to... or if some crazy person who likes the instance drags you into it.

Because right now, you *have* to do Molten Core to do Blackwing Lair - and Blackwing Lair to do AQ40 - and AQ40 to Naxx.

Looks like how the Expansion instances are, there is no linear progression besides the level of the instance itself.

Though, I could be blowing that out my ass. It is 12:41, it's been a long day... and I'm watching FMA.

[Sinthe]

I doubt it'll be that hard Karkarov, but... that is a valid statement. While things have changed, I still stick by Blizzard's statement at BLIZZCON that level 70 greens will be better than epics in Blackwing Lair.

Heh, and in reference to raids.. Molten Core isn't even in the equation. The best thing about the expansion, to me, is making Molten Core another Sunken Temple - you go there only if you need to... or if some crazy person who likes the instance drags you into it.

Because right now, you *have* to do Molten Core to do Blackwing Lair - and Blackwing Lair to do AQ40 - and AQ40 to Naxx.

Looks like how the Expansion instances are, there is no linear progression besides the level of the instance itself.

Though, I could be blowing that out my ass. It is 12:41, it's been a long day... and I'm watching FMA.

Level 70 blues. Greens just suck.

[Marroc]

I doubt it'll be that hard Karkarov, but... that is a valid statement. While things have changed, I still stick by Blizzard's statement at BLIZZCON that level 70 greens will be better than epics in Blackwing Lair.

Heh, and in reference to raids.. Molten Core isn't even in the equation. The best thing about the expansion, to me, is making Molten Core another Sunken Temple - you go there only if you need to... or if some crazy person who likes the instance drags you into it.

Because right now, you *have* to do Molten Core to do Blackwing Lair - and Blackwing Lair to do AQ40 - and AQ40 to Naxx.

Looks like how the Expansion instances are, there is no linear progression besides the level of the instance itself.

Though, I could be blowing that out my ass. It is 12:41, it's been a long day... and I'm watching FMA.

Level 70 blues. Greens just suck.


*points skyze to the new green suffix lists*

No they don't...

*drools over of the shadow items*

[Dewce]

Yup...

In fact, this is the whole reason why I'm capping guild growth around 35 or so.

what are you up to now? 5?

[Vilmah]

what are you up to now? 5?

*dies*

Dewce wins the thread.

[Nadea]

what are you up to now? 5?

*dies*

Dewce wins the thread.

bahahaha!!

Lets see....Zust, Zaisien, Chum, Neithan (pardon my spellings, I can never remember these things!)...I only count 4...

[Niethan]

Those are the most active players, yeah. There's a group of others, but they aren't on as much.

[Fhenrir]

Because right now, you *have* to do Molten Core to do Blackwing Lair - and Blackwing Lair to do AQ40 - and AQ40 to Naxx.

Not entirely true. Consumables along with a good amount of PvP rewards and AQ20/ZG gear could likely see progress in BWL these days. Of course, you'd also need a good supply of talented players.

[Tarlithion]

Right. Talented Players. Because the Alliance has lots of those lying around.

[Fhenrir]

Touche.

[Tillna]

Right. Talented Players. Because the Alliance has lots of those lying around.
Sad but true

I liek ot know that I know how to Fear lcok and Fear bind in instgances...and do all those locky things..

*shoudl neevr type when he is hungry and tired*

[Abric]

Not entirely true. Consumables along with a good amount of PvP rewards and AQ20/ZG gear could likely see progress in BWL these days. Of course, you'd also need a good supply of talented players.

Show me a group that can do it, and I'll show you shennigans, Fhenrir. Shennigans!

You need Molten Core. That's why a lot of folk do it... you need the items from it to hope to go into Blackwing Lair. Fire resist aside, the best items you can get in the game prior to MC just won't cut it in BWL. This includes the Cenarion Circle, Argent Dawn, and battleground rewards.

While, yes... *really* talented players may be able to do it; but that's borderline unrealistic. To get 40 folk geared up with very good non-MC gear would be extremely time consuming... and the chances would still be kind of out there.

Though when the expansion come out - it'll be a moot point. Equip Fhenrir with the Green Sword of Demon Doom... and he won't need fire resist gear. He'll four-shot Razorgore.

...

Then wake up in a pool of blood for his foolishness! DOOM!

[Keraph]

No reason to joke my guild, Dewce.

Come on, there's ALWAYS reason to joke when it comes to the House >:D


And Abric, I'm borderline with Fhen on this one. Not from personal experience, but based on the other options players have now, I think it is possible. That and I remember when I was pre-60, and everyone was like "zOMG MC is so hard -everyone- needs 30000000 FR and mad skillz!". Then I went there, and it was REALLY easy.

[Sinthe]

No reason to joke my guild, Dewce.

Come on, there's ALWAYS reason to joke when it comes to the House >:D


And Abric, I'm borderline with Fhen on this one. Not from personal experience, but based on the other options players have now, I think it is possible. That and I remember when I was pre-60, and everyone was like "zOMG MC is so hard -everyone- needs 30000000 FR and mad skillz!". Then I went there, and it was REALLY easy.

It's borderline boring, the fights don't really require a whole lot. Majordomo is the most fun of them all, since I haven't actually killed Rags I can't say anything on that subject.

[Dewce]

No reason to joke my guild, Dewce.

i don't know i'm sure people could dig up a few reasons...

[Karkarov]

Remember you have to get to level 70 in the first place. Somehow I doubt you will just sleep walk your way there in a week or two. In the beta it is apparently easy to level, but that is no lock that it will stay that way in real release. And while level 70 greens may be a match for BWL, what about AQ? Naxx? The bazilion other instances there will supposedly be now? Once again, no one is going in Tempest keep with level 70 greens. Unless they want to get killed.

[Shadowspeak]

Remember you have to get to level 70 in the first place. Somehow I doubt you will just sleep walk your way there in a week or two. In the beta it is apparently easy to level, but that is no lock that it will stay that way in real release. And while level 70 greens may be a match for BWL, what about AQ? Naxx? The bazilion other instances there will supposedly be now? Once again, no one is going in Tempest keep with level 70 greens. Unless they want to get killed.

but no one is going in there with teir three either.

Most likely all the best armor will be lying around in Outland, and the gladiator sets.

[Fallacy]

There's a 61 quested blue plate chest item that's superior to the Breastplate of Annhilation.

Daaaaaaaaamn.

[Karkarov]

Proof or just hearsay fallacy because most level 60 epics rated as level 70 arent going to be outdone by level 61 blues. Remember guys... all tier three/naxx drops are rated as like level 75+, some of them over level 80, they are just 60 to use. So unless I see level 80 rates blues or epics dropping like candy in every 25 man I expect you still wont be skipping naxxramas. It amazes me how many of you think they are going to make content they spent months, if not more than a year, developing obsolete with an expansion. No other mmo does it, so why will blizzard do it with BC?

[Shadowspeak]

Well if Fallacy can link it... then you can't deny it.

Other than that, we will wait and see.

[Yichimet]

I think it has more to do with the fact that the Blizzard developers said as much at Blizzcon.

That and they must have heard how much we hate 40-man content.

[Fallacy]

I saw a pic of it on the warrior forums. Hold on...

Well, not really superior, but about on par. http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h129/Aedak/BP.jpg

[Shadowspeak]

Just try not to be such a pessemist kark. We know deep deep deep down inside you theres a laughing school girl trying to get out.

...sort of like Manus.

[Fallacy]

Since the NDA was lifted, you can find this stuff all over the place. I've seen the stats for some of the new crafted items, and, I have to say, I'm really happy I'm a swordsmith, now.

[Shadowspeak]

A blue from a quest.

Yup. I'm going to love the expansion more than I thought. Hopefulyl my warrior will reach 60 before BC.

[Keraph]

I saw a pic of it on the warrior forums. Hold on...

Well, not really superior, but about on par. http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h129/Aedak/BP.jpg

Wow, it really IS on par! I'm psyched.

[Fallacy]

Looks like there's a new faction, there, too. Thrallmar is the first Horde city you'll reach when you enter the Outlands.

[Fhenrir]

Proof or just hearsay fallacy because most level 60 epics rated as level 70 arent going to be outdone by level 61 blues. Remember guys... all tier three/naxx drops are rated as like level 75+, some of them over level 80, they are just 60 to use.

You're going by Thott/Ala ratings? Those are meaningless.

Something a level 70 would use is defined by what Blizzard gives us to use, not by what Thottbot estimates.

[Abric]

I remember when everybody said bosses were level 255 or something crazy like that.

...

I laughed at them all.

[Shadowspeak]

I remember when everybody said bosses were level 255 or something crazy like that.

...

I laughed at them all.

255 is the max number of kills it will show on a starcraft unit.

*shrug*

[Karkarov]

By the way, Breastplate of annihilation is also one of the worst 40 man plate chest pieces and is dropped by a boss most consider to be as easy as Kurinaxx. So they are basically comparing what is the bottom of the barrel. I have yet to see even 1 item I would take over a piece of Naxx gear linked or discussed on any site or forum. And I dont expect I will until people start seeing tempest keep loot.

[Tillna]

Well, think about this.

How do I get to any Naxx AQ 40 or MC gear if I am in a small guild?

I mean the hypothetical I

so the new items are going to be meh for awhile

[Chingaso]

How do I get to any Naxx AQ 40 or MC gear if I am in a small guild?
THEGA.

It also helps if you don't suck... :wink: :twisted:

[Fhenrir]

Breastplate of annihilation is also one of the worst 40 man plate chest pieces

Ahahahahahaha!

Hahahahaha!

You're joking, right? The only better DPS plate chest piece in the game is dropped in Naxx. Or depending on preferrence, the Rank 13 chestpiece is comparable.

Oh yes, bottom of the barrel indeed.

/shoo prot warrior

[Fallacy]

Breastplate of annihilation is also one of the worst 40 man plate chest pieces

Ahahahahahaha!

Hahahahaha!

You're joking, right? The only better DPS plate chest piece in the game is dropped in Naxx. Or depending on preferrence, the Rank 13 chestpiece is comparable.

Oh yes, bottom of the barrel indeed.

/shoo prot warrior

Yeah, I was thinking Kark was going crazy.

[Tillna]

How do I get to any Naxx AQ 40 or MC gear if I am in a small guild?
THEGA.

It also helps if you don't suck... :wink: :twisted:
I'm Ally

and I don;t suck

I kill

[Shadowspeak]

Kark is being a negative nancy!

[Keraph]

I'm Ally

Now, there's your problem right there!


Kark is being a negative nancy!

True that. What's with the fanatical pessimism, man? You seem like, morally horrified by something!

[Yichimet]

I think WoW 2.0 is going to inaugurate some pretty big gameplay changes, which is one thing that is pointing to the (awesome) change in itemization.

I think they realized quite a few of the mistakes they made over the past couple of years, and are intent on fixing them in BC.

Now just give me a worthwhile 41 pt. elemental shaman talent, Blizz!

[Fhenrir]

True that. What's with the fanatical pessimism, man? You seem like, morally horrified by something!

His Might gear is going to be absolutely useless the second he walks through the Dark Portal.

Just like mine will be.

[Karkarov]

As impressed as I am by your guys personal insults and pathetic jibes I have to admit I am outmatched. My constructive points which continually get ignored surely dont match up to commentary about MC a instance I have never once mentioned in any of my posts, or being called a negative nancy which is highly pertinent to BC content I am sure. Instead of continuing to attempt to make sense I will simply say that you are all right so you can all shut the hell up and move on.

Have a nice day.

[Yichimet]

I don't think it's practical for Blizzard to require any of its gamers to require 40-man raid content gear to explore ANY of the instances of Burning Crusade. In doing so they cater to a minority of their base. Nearly all of the announcements they've made about Burning Crusade has been about fixing some of the problems of the raid progression in current WoW--the fact that ZG and AQ fights are more fun than MC, which is a (debatable, I guess) stepping stone to get to the (I hear, since I've never done 'em, since MC bores the snot out of me) more fun raid instances.

I don't think anyone is saying that Naxx is going to be obsolete (though if that quest reward is any indication the gear will be on par at least), but what I'm getting from the vibe here is that a lot of people are excited about the 25-man principle.

The combination of the 25-man cap and the new talents that compliment other classes' talents/abilities--the shaman AP aura on crit, for instance--just seem to be pointing in a new direction to me.

Of course, it could all be wishful thinking, since I think the 20-mans are infinitely more fun than the 40-mans.

[Grev]

T3 gear won't be replaced until 70, and even then you'll probably only be keeping a few pieces for a set bonus. So yeah, Naxx will be the only relevant dungeon from pre-expansion. Regardless, BC has me excited about PvE again. I slowly drifted away from the game once 40-mans were the only thing left, because it just wasn't fun to me.

If I can find a tight group to play with in BC I see myself as a hopeless addict again.

[Shadowspeak]

We didn't mean anything offensive karkarov. We didn't even say anything remotely close to an insult.

[Fhenrir]

Kark, I'm also not trying to insult or mock you. The reason my responses likely come off conflicting is because you seem rather hostile in the beginning.

It appears suggesting that current loot will be completely trivialized insults you, you come off quite angry at the idea that BWL is going to be the new Zul'Farrak.

[Fallacy]

I've looked at some of the new gear, and looked at the beta forums, and it looks like a lot of people are having most of their gear replaced (this is people from guilds that were working on Naxx) at level 67. At that point, the higher end instances really open up, and some weapons are up to legendary quality. Some gear still might have its uses into level 70, but I can't say that definitively because that level hasn't been reached yet.

[EnheilRas]

bwuahaha

level 69 Battleground campers