Rogue PVP assistance

[Anaie]

ok. I am finally getting around to building a pvp set and just wanted to get some opinions as to what route I should go.

I don't do arenas so, take that into consideration with suggestions please!

my current PVP build is 41/5/25

what should rogues be gemming for that type of build? Attack Power still?

Any gear/enchant tips are appreciated.

Thanks

[Thurne]

Standard Mut builds are going by the wayside for Mut/Envenom builds, which sacrifice some control for larger burst. This burst is specifically noticeable against plate targets. The gemming is the same; AP. You'll have less to worry about in regards to Armor Pen as well.

[Trigin]

Mut/Envenom has the higher numbers and its still the same geming AP like Thurne said

[Ashae]

Mut builds will usually unsure a more steady stream of dps. However, a subtlety build will give you enough burst to take down most clothies in under 5 seconds. Assuming they aren't in over 600 resil gear, that is. Combat is going to be a bad choice unless you're between levels 20 and 49.

(Edit) Subtlety is screwed 1v1 against any plate wearers.

[Swerto]

Mut builds will usually unsure a more steady stream of dps. However, a subtlety build will give you enough burst to take down most clothies in under 5 seconds. Assuming they aren't in over 600 resil gear, that is. Combat is going to be a bad choice unless you're between levels 20 and 49.
lol@peoplenotat900resilorabove

[Skaadvik]

This one time people had to gear up. Also, I barely run over 900 resil. Just don't really need it. That, and my shit gear doesn't provide it. That's another story though, one about me being bad.

[Dahnek]

Mut builds will usually unsure a more steady stream of dps. However, a subtlety build will give you enough burst to take down most clothies in under 5 seconds. Assuming they aren't in over 600 resil gear, that is. Combat is going to be a bad choice unless you're between levels 20 and 49.

(Edit) Subtlety is screwed 1v1 against any plate wearers.

Disregard this post. Sub has np with plate, and any build can nuke clothies in minimum resil.

[Tylorvias]

This section might as well just be renamed "Envenom and how to do things with it."

[Anaie]

Heh. Thanks all for the tips, mostly what I thought, but wanted to be sure.

[Periettel]

OH YEAH! ROGUE TIPS! I AM GOING TO POST THE FUCK OUT OF THIS!

...

......

.....

...uh...

yeah...
....And... I am spent.


Seriously though, when it comes down to it, envenom is just easier, 4 button badass, what have you... Sub has ALOT more utility but is alot harder to play sense you have to plan ahead, and you have to have max burst potential rolling (expose armor, slice and dice) with a good stunlock to maximise the shadow dance. But sub CAN take down plate and high resilence targets. Just dont plan to play it while drunk (it is balls hard) or if you have lag. Personally, I have been rolling envenom lately because I like being able to drunkenly slap my dick on my key board and see something die.

Oh, And the Standard envenom build is going to look something like 44/2/25.

[-Teleara-]

OH YEAH! ROGUE TIPS! I AM GOING TO POST THE FUCK OUT OF THIS!

...

......

.....

...uh...

yeah...
....And... I am spent.


Seriously though, when it comes down to it, envenom is just easier, 4 button badass, what have you... Sub has ALOT more utility but is alot harder to play sense you have to plan ahead, and you have to have max burst potential rolling (expose armor, slice and dice) with a good stunlock to maximise the shadow dance. But sub CAN take down plate and high resilence targets. Just dont plan to play it while drunk (it is balls hard) or if you have lag. Personally, I have been rolling envenom lately because I like being able to drunkenly slap my dick on my key board and see something die.

Oh, And the Standard envenom build is going to look something like 44/2/25.

Pretty much what Peri said.

Envenom is easier to play.

Sub is more difficult to play, however when played effectively it can be monstrous.

If you do choose sub, for the most part I ignore Expose armor and just open direclty with Prem -> SND -> Cheap Shot -> Shadow Dance -> Ambush, Ambush -> Kidneyshot -> Ambush -> Ambush . . so on.

[Swerto]

I actually ran with glyph of sdance for a bit to get off that one last cheap shot/garrote/ambush depending on the situation.

[Ryoku]

lol@peoplenotat900resilorabove

You're fucking bad.

1400 resil.

Get like me.

Oh, and uh.

Rogue.. You uh, stab things with your knife and it's all like.. Cool and shit with the poisons and the blood and all that jazz.

Ya know?

[Swerto]

You're fucking bad.

1400 resil.

Get like me.

Oh, and uh.

Rogue.. You uh, stab things with your knife and it's all like.. Cool and shit with the poisons and the blood and all that jazz.

Ya know?

900 resil is just the minimum if you don't want to get eaten alive in two casts from a shaman.

[Skaadvik]

swerto is still giving pvp advice and it's still hilarious.

[Zultingo]

900 resil is just the minimum if you don't want to get eaten alive in two casts from a shaman.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/homicidaljohnny/OFOFYOURELEMENT.jpg

[Sinfaye]

900 resil is just the minimum if you don't want to get eaten alive in two casts from a shaman.

900 is all you really need if your running Arenas or anything for that matter with others, since your never really the main focus and if you are, 900 or 1500 it wont really matter at that point.

[Tylorvias]

900 is all you really need if your running Arenas or anything for that matter with others, since your never really the main focus and if you are, 900 or 1500 it wont really matter at that point.


False.

In 3's and 5's people hard switch the hell out of rogues after cloak goes down and vanish has been used, and can easily get them used with some CC's and/or DoT's.

[Ryoku]

900 is all you really need if your running Arenas or anything for that matter with others, since your never really the main focus and if you are, 900 or 1500 it wont really matter at that point.


This post is confusing because I at first thought you were saying this in general, but now I'm kind-of thinking you meant this for rogues specifically.

Rogues actually are oftentimes a major target. They put out a lot of hurt, and go down hard. That being said, the resilience doesn't really do so much for them as it does for say, a Restoration Shaman (who has to stack around 1300-1400 to remain some semblance of alive).

Also, to Swerto in seriousness, PvE heroes are still alive. There is no minimum resilience.

[Sinfaye]

I'm just saying as a rogue starting arenas and not in full wrathful there is no need to worry about getting your resil above the low 900s, it would take gems if your human and don't use the faction trinket. If you do use the trinket it doesnt really matter, you will push 1k resil. Yes, I understand what your saying about 3s and 5s, but would say 1200-1400 over 900 resil really make a difference when you become the target?

I'm only passing on the 900 min based on what all the wonderful Theory crafters say for us. As for other classes, I haven't a clue.

[Tylorvias]

I'm just saying as a rogue starting arenas and not in full wrathful there is no need to worry about getting your resil above the low 900s, it would take gems if your human and don't use the faction trinket. If you do use the trinket it doesnt really matter, you will push 1k resil. Yes, I understand what your saying about 3s and 5s, but would say 1200-1400 over 900 resil really make a difference when you become the target?

I'm only passing on the 900 min based on what all the wonderful Theory crafters say for us. As for other classes, I haven't a clue.

Yup, it would.

In 5's lots of higher end players run full resil sets and stop mixing PvE in, Viiper himself (2600 rogue on our server) goes full resil set with no PvE for arena and sits on at least 1200 because of it, if not more.

I understand your point, I'm just saying it isn't true all the time that minimum resilience is best, it's really too situational to say what method is best once you have all options available.

[Sinfaye]

it's really too situational to say what method is best once you have all options available.

I'd agree 100% here.

[Tylorvias]

I'd agree 100% here.

Exactly. In the end all you can do is gear/gem/spec to maximize your wins based on the comp you run, in the bracket you run.

[Chikt]

I have a question for our Rogue experts.

Based on the preliminary talent trees for Cataclysm, what sort of Subtlety build would you suggest?

[Anaie]

good stuff to know about the arena items, but I don't really have time/desire for that... more world pvp, bg's and WG.

[Periettel]

In all seriousness? For casual play? Anything. Whatever weapons ypu have and the best spec to fit them, for most rogues that is a dagger spec, and you can basically build something to match your play style, envenom is cookie cutter for the most part, sub can be customised a bit more, but really the rest is up to you and just learning your play style and what you need for your class. ( more often than not, that just comes down to "a better set of daggers").

[Swerto]

Arena doesn't take that much time really, set aside an hour or two a week that you and your team can play on, and play on that day. You won't ever hit 2200 by being minimalistic, but if you know your shit you can probably at least hit 1800 and maintain it.

[Periettel]

but if you know your shit you can probably at least hit 1800 and maintain it.

So... Swerto... When was the last time you had an 1800 weapon?

[Tylorvias]

Arena doesn't take that much time really, set aside an hour or two a week that you and your team can play on, and play on that day. You won't ever hit 2200 by being minimalistic, but if you know your shit you can probably at least hit 1800 and maintain it.

You're a fountain of lol's, the best part is how unintentional it is on your part.

[Anaie]

Meh, too much real life for another hour for this game heh.

I usually pvp in my pve gear, as it is good, and use my standard Mutilate spec. I'm a glass cannon. I do pretty well, just have to choose my battles. Was just looking for some tips to move along more towards actual pvp gear to live a bit longer here and there.

[Skaadvik]

Well, your best bet for living longer is wearing PvP gear.

[Razdafarian]

To be honest, use a Sap build. You'll live indefinitely.

[Swerto]

Icwutudidther

[Mikelol]

I read this thread and feel the need to correct several posts on this topic before getting to the jist of rogue pvp.


lol@peoplenotat900resilorabove
I've played multiple chars to 1800-1950 (in 2s) this season, with anywhere from 100 resil to as much as 1100 resil (a rogue). Resil is not all that matters, infact the last few rogues I've gotten to 1800 for weapons, I've TAKEN OFF resil gear and ran with around 500-600.


Disregard this post. Sub has np with plate, and any build can nuke clothies in minimum resil.
Sub's damage is purely physical, the damage on plate is 100% laughable UNLESS you stack arp, however that makes you kinda blah vs casters, however it is still very viable. My friend litrecola uses it and does fine.


Pretty much what Peri said.

Envenom is easier to play.

Sub is more difficult to play, however when played effectively it can be monstrous.

If you do choose sub, for the most part I ignore Expose armor and just open direclty with Prem -> SND -> Cheap Shot -> Shadow Dance -> Ambush, Ambush -> Kidneyshot -> Ambush -> Ambush . . so on.
Envenom is hard, consistent damage, sub is quick, controlled burst. I have yet to see a single rogue on TN who actually plays sdance properly, stick to envenom until you have a lot of experience as a rogue IMO.


You're fucking bad.

1400 resil.

Get like me.

Oh, and uh.

Rogue.. You uh, stab things with your knife and it's all like.. Cool and shit with the poisons and the blood and all that jazz.

Ya know?
There is no class in this game that should feel the need to run 1400 resil in arenas, not a single one, the highest I would go is 1200ish, unless you literally have access to no pve gear (doubtable pve is a joke now). Running that much resil really gimps you in today's arena.


900 resil is just the minimum if you don't want to get eaten alive in two casts from a shaman.
Wrong again, you can get to 1800 running around 700ish with most comps just fine, as long as you play smart and well.


False.

In 3's and 5's people hard switch the hell out of rogues after cloak goes down and vanish has been used, and can easily get them used with some CC's and/or DoT's.
For 3s Generally around 1k resil is the norm for rogues, 5s on the other hand you need to run full PvP gear because your job is not damage, your job is to lock someone down while harry potter (the wizards on your team) do the damage.


So... Swerto... When was the last time you had an 1800 weapon?
1800 does not make a player good, please stop acting like it does.


As rogue rogue pvp, go envenom, get some pve gear, and get another dps and go to 1800, once you get used to using your CC and whatnot it will be extremely easy for you to get 1800, double dps is not amazingly gear dependant just nuke something. Healer/dps on the otherhand is more gear dependant on the DPS because it's just you trying to kill something (in today's arena, thats lulz as a rogue)

[Tylorvias]

I read this post and felt the desire to correct some things before getting to the gist of the OP's desired topic.


good stuff to know about the arena items, but I don't really have time/desire for that... more world pvp, bg's and WG.

[Fhenrir]

I read this post and felt the desire to correct some things before getting to the gist of the OP's desired topic.

There's nothing wrong with a slight deviation from the original intent of the topic, particularly when it's called something simple like "Rogue PvP assistance".


I'm not gonna edit anything posted so far, but there are a few examples of people needing to play nicer and lighten the hell up here. Look at your post; if you feel like I'm talking to you, I probably am.

(Note, this is not directed at Demitri. My first paragraph was my full response to him.)

[Mikelol]

I read this post and felt the desire to correct some things before getting to the gist of the OP's desired topic.

The posts on the topic where already pretty far off base of the original topic and what was suggested, and I'm pretty sure most of the posts I quoted had very little to do with the original topic at hand anyway ;)

However, when arguing a point, it is better to quote and correct and then give an opinion rather than just give an opinion in my book ;)

Also, as per the original topic, you need 5% hit (6% if you worry about nelfs, most pvpers dont), after that as a mutillate rogue, nothing but AP should be gemmed, anything else is a damage loss overall. The only time a rogue should deviate from AP is if going sub with pve arp gear, in which they should gem some arp.

[Tylorvias]

There's nothing wrong with a slight deviation from the original intent of the topic, particularly when it's called something simple like "Rogue PvP assistance".


I'm not gonna edit anything posted so far, but there are a few examples of people needing to play nicer and lighten the hell up here. Look at your post; if you feel like I'm talking to you, I probably am.

(Note, this is not directed at Demitri. My first paragraph was my full response to him.)

You fail to take into account that I just like being an ass where I can on occasion, if just because it feels good.

[-Teleara-]

"Envenom is hard, consistent damage, sub is quick, controlled burst. I have yet to see a single rogue on TN who actually plays sdance properly, stick to envenom until you have a lot of experience as a rogue IMO."

I've been playing a rogue for five years :P

I didn't contradict those points you just made, so I fail to see why you made them.

[Mikelol]

"Envenom is hard, consistent damage, sub is quick, controlled burst. I have yet to see a single rogue on TN who actually plays sdance properly, stick to envenom until you have a lot of experience as a rogue IMO."

I've been playing a rogue for five years :P

I didn't contradict those points you just made, so I fail to see why you made them.

You may be playing a rogue for 5 years, however the skill-cap for sub is extremely high, could you pull it off in BGs shadowstep ambushing kids with 20k health sure, is it fun or will you have any real idea wtf you're doing? nope.

[Chikt]

What I'm getting out of this is that Subtlety rogues are serious business.

[Swerto]

I may not play my sub rogue with the greatest efficiency, or skill ,but it's still a helluva lot more fun that mutilate.

[Vyn]

What I'm getting out of this is that Subtlety rogues are serious business.

No, Dio, ALL rogues are srs bsns.

[Mikelol]

I may not play my sub rogue with the greatest efficiency, or skill ,but it's still a helluva lot more fun that mutilate.

I never found ambushing people with no resil/health as "fun", and short of doing that, your damage is pretty lackluster compared to mut. I'd rather kill all people all the time than just low resil people. ;*O

[Swerto]

I never found ambushing people with no resil/health as "fun", and short of doing that, your damage is pretty lackluster compared to mut. I'd rather kill all people all the time than just low resil people. ;*O

Shadowstep and shadow dance make the difference in playstyle for me. Being able to pop out extra stuns out if the need be, or extra burst, is awesome. Also, <3 Shadowstep (greatest rogue ability ever).

Also prep + premed is always awesome.

I do have his offspec as mutilate for those times where mutilate would be better, and better is demanded, however.

[-Teleara-]

You may be playing a rogue for 5 years, however the skill-cap for sub is extremely high, could you pull it off in BGs shadowstep ambushing kids with 20k health sure, is it fun or will you have any real idea wtf you're doing? nope.

Er what?

And please don't make assumptions about me being shit or whatever you want. You don't know me.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation.

Good luck! :)

[Mikelol]

Er what?

And please don't make assumptions about me being shit or whatever you want. You don't know me.

Anyway, I am done with this conversation.

Good luck! :)

I can assure you, I've played with you and against you ;)

[Swerto]

I just killed a rogue on my damage shield via SHIELD block when she burned killing spree. She called me a cheater for using a 40 second cooldown when she burned evasion, blind, sprint, and then of course killing spree.

I love rogues who make horrid excuses.


(BOLD IS FOR TEXT I MESSED UP)

[Moknim]

Just here to say - I tried out PvP on my rogue. It is official, I suck at rogue. Too many cooldowns to manage. Doesn't make sense in my head.

Also, vanish blows.

Of course being 71 and going against a Sargeras group of 7 paladins in full T6 didn't help me.

[Swerto]

Don't judge rogue until level cap.

Please.

[Moknim]

Don't judge rogue until level cap.

Please.

The problem is - I figured I would try PvP to see if I liked it more because my attempts at leveling PvE haven't been working (my rogue has been at 71 while I leveled all 3 of my last 80s). I just don't enjoy the class that much I think.

[Swerto]

I'm serious, do not even think about judging it until you've played it on the field it is meant to be played. I -HATED- leveling my rogue, it is probably my second favorite character after my warrior at 80. I never touch my paladin (who I loved leveling), or my DK (who I also loved leveling).

[Tylorvias]

He's serious guys. Don't even THINK of judging rogues until you have seriously played them through an extended leveling process and then geared them properly and played for additional time at eighty. Then after you've done it seriously you can seriously decide that you still don't like the class you started to seriously hate at 30.

Seriously.

[Moknim]

He's serious guys. Don't even THINK of judging rogues until you have seriously played them through an extended leveling process and then geared them properly and played for additional time at eighty. Then after you've done it seriously you can seriously decide that you still don't like the class you started to seriously hate at 70.

Seriously.

Pretty much how I feel anytime anyone talks about PvP. I'm not serious enough.

[Chikt]

Rogues are like Spies in Team Fortress 2.

They take a lot of time and practice to play really well. You have to be patient and understand a LOT of your limitations.

Things you simply cannot do in a short span of time. Even getting to level 80 likely isn't enough to give you enough of an idea.

[Alphaeus]

So. For shits and giggles, I turned on my MutPvP offspec I've never really used despite having forever and a day, and slapped on my crapdaggers, and woahshit. Not bad.

I miss killing spree dearly, but I'm seeing what people mean about a lot of the mut stuff.

(Comabt still owns my heart).

[Mikelol]

So. For shits and giggles, I turned on my MutPvP offspec I've never really used despite having forever and a day, and slapped on my crapdaggers, and woahshit. Not bad.

I miss killing spree dearly, but I'm seeing what people mean about a lot of the mut stuff.

(Comabt still owns my heart).

Combat is a one-trick-pony, ;*(

[Swerto]

I eat combat like OMNOMNOMNOMNOM (KILLING SPREE HARD TO COUNTER WITH SIMPLE DEFENSIVE COOLDOWN... SO HARD)

[Tylorvias]

Combat is a one-trick-pony, ;*(

This obviously makes it less fun, right?

[Mikelol]

This obviously makes it less fun, right?

because doing no damage, getting kited endlessly, and basically being useless outside of you cooldown is fun?

[Vyn]

because doing no damage, getting kited endlessly, and basically being useless outside of you cooldown is fun?

Let me tell you a story. It's a story close to my heart.

Once upon a time, there was a guy who played Warcraft 3. He loved it. When he heard about World of Warcraft, he was THRILLED. He logged in for the first time about a month after it came out, and completely enjoyed himself. Before too long, he was addicted.

The odd thing was, he never hit 60.

Then Burning Crusade came out. He loved it! He played it a lot.

And never hit 70.

And now Wrath of the Lich King is out. He still plays it, and has hit 80 on a death knight. Except he didn't really do that, a friend hit 80 for him while he was out of town, and when he came back and realized he had an 80, he promptly dropped the character and has not played it since.

The moral of the story: different people have fun doing different things. Perhaps the combat rogues enjoy their Killing Sprees because it's FUN. Kinda like Titan's Grip. Oh sure, it sucks in PvP. But it's pretty damn fun to run around with two bigass weapons.

[Tylorvias]

Let me tell you a story. It's a story close to my heart.

Once upon a time, there was a guy who played Warcraft 3. He loved it. When he heard about World of Warcraft, he was THRILLED. He logged in for the first time about a month after it came out, and completely enjoyed himself. Before too long, he was addicted.

The odd thing was, he never hit 60.

Then Burning Crusade came out. He loved it! He played it a lot.

And never hit 70.

And now Wrath of the Lich King is out. He still plays it, and has hit 80 on a death knight. Except he didn't really do that, a friend hit 80 for him while he was out of town, and when he came back and realized he had an 80, he promptly dropped the character and has not played it since.

The moral of the story: different people have fun doing different things. Perhaps the combat rogues enjoy their Killing Sprees because it's FUN. Kinda like Titan's Grip. Oh sure, it sucks in PvP. But it's pretty damn fun to run around with two bigass weapons.

This.

[Wyrdassil]

And now Wrath of the Lich King is out. He still plays it, and has hit 80 on a death knight. Except he didn't really do that, a friend hit 80 for him while he was out of town, and when he came back and realized he had an 80, he promptly dropped the character and has not played it since.


The moral of the story, is...


VYN, GET TO BLOODY 80 ALREADY FOR CHRIST'S SAKES. Ahem.

<3


Really, does it matter?

being useless outside of you cooldown is fun?

To some, yes.

Now, onto more pointless bantering.

/thread

[Swerto]

I never liked combat either, personally. Killing spree removes the control from your character, at least with bladestorming as a warrior you have to move.

[Aeshura]

My rogue's Sub, I'm really loving his ability to back me up and provide some good short term cc. Shadowdance makes swapping targets near instant. I suggest sub cause he's sub...only reason...

"Horde of girls screaming: WE LOVE YOU VISARARATH!!! WOOOO!"