Death of Varian Wrynn

[Gorymoru]

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff348/The_Nightmare_Zorael/WoWScrnShot_052210_052314.jpg


http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff348/The_Nightmare_Zorael/WoWScrnShot_052210_052444.jpg


Your king has been found wanting...

[Swerto]

Haha, I remember when Carrowyn, Dreezy, and I almost 3 manned a city leader, then a rogue in T10 ruined our fun :(.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

This to me simply underscores how poorly capitol cities are defended, or cities in general for that matter.

[Trigin]

They really need to buff citys leaders IMO


This to me simply underscores how poorly capitol cities are defended, or cities in general for that matter.

It was 5 in the moring Aleria barely anyone was online and those who where online most likely where probably to tired to do anything.

[Szordrin]

I dunno guys.. that COULD BE FIVE PM!

And who cares? No one would have been around in Darnassus if it was peak hours anyway. Stormwind at 5am is just a little bit more like Darnassus than any other time, yeh?

'Sides. I like toast.

[Necroxis]

I think they need to add guards closer to the faction leaders that are more powerful and present an actual challenge (Not like Sylvanas' elite guards who really aren't much harder than regular ones).

For example, the ones around Varian would be 7th Legion elites.

Oh and---5 am lulz and all that.

[Cyrass]

Since we're talking about city bosses and time stamps <.<

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/8493/fthk.jpg

:3

[Swerto]

I made the argument later to lower the ammount of guards there are, but raise their power to that of a level 80 player (make guards kind of like weaker faction champs) and raise the power of the city leaders with each patch so they're in line with the current raid encounters.

[Cyrass]

I made the argument later to lower the ammount of guards there are, but raise their power to that of a level 80 player (make guards kind of like weaker faction champs) and raise the power of the city leaders with each patch so they're in line with the current raid encounters.

This would be a good idea. City bosses should never be easy (the biggest difficulty today was getting people to NOT go through Goldshire), and through a combination of them not being very impressive to start with, and Wrath's out of control gear scaling has made them a joke.

[Malinos]

If the other city leaders were as hard as Sylvanas then it'd be something. She's got invisibility and strong NPC adds with a lot of crowd control that respawn fairly quickly and you can't kite her to a different area like you guys did with Varian. Whereas every other leader is basically just a tank and spank.

[Urivial]

I still wish it was about Cataclysm :(

[Raynell]

I still wish it was about Cataclysm :(

All these wishes make me want to re-roll Genie.

WTB Genie class in Cata, make it happen blizz.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Gratz Cyrass. O.o I can't believe your group managed to do it.. I was lol'ing when you were telling me about it.

[Gorymoru]

I would like to iterate that the purpose of the post, while goading, was actually to bring to brighter light just how easy City leaders are...and it's rather sad when the leader of the Alliance can be five manned by rather medium geared players.


((FTR, we did get wiped once by a pally who was rather geared who repentenced our healer. It being late, we kind of missed it. Second time we tried though, he tried that crap again and we killed him. Yay for late night learnin's.))

tl;dr - WTB moar challenge.

[Necroxis]

reaaaallly doesn't come across as just trying to bring light to how easy city leaders are.

[Urivial]

The thing is, Blizz shouldn't have to make the faction leaders stronger, they don't drop loot, they're just an achievement, I'd go so far as to say that all they are, are glorified quest givers... With a huge chunk of health.

[Ackley]

They should drop Wrathful gear, then make em super fucking hard to kill, except thrall who is already a pain

[Gorymoru]

@ Necroxis - I know it doesn't. It's meant to be a goad, but it has a dual purpose. lolpvpstimuluswut? If I wanted it solely to be about how shitty they are now, I'd have put it in WoW discussions. As it's in PvP discussions, I want some retaliation, dammit! Give me something to stab!

@ Carlos - Eh, I agree if you were to look at purely from game mechanics standpoint...but look at it lore-wise. They are the Leaders of the Alliance and the Horde for reasons. They shouldn't be little pushovers.

[Necroxis]

I wasn't accusing, just saying how it looked.

Anyway, if the faction leaders were lore-wise accurate, it'd be a lot more interesting. Sylvanas would be able to just MC everyone and it'd be over.

[Gorymoru]

No Swerto, you read him wrong. He read it right. Check it again in context.

[Ackley]

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9313/bragging.png

We found all of your leaders wanting....

We did For the Alliance, and we smashed 2 horde raids in SW and IF.

[Necroxis]

Kind of an epic FTA group.

[Urivial]

It became more then just a FTA raid. I'm going to write up an IC statement on it latorz.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

It became more then just a FTA raid. I'm going to write up an IC statement on it latorz.

NO!! Don't do it! It will spawn a back and forth war of people boasting about every little PVP achievement!

[Gorymoru]

Nicely done Belli, when was that? Cause I've been on the road all day so I haven't been on much.

[Necroxis]

Started at....5? Around there, finished up at 7:30 when we went back to SW to kill an attempt at the King.

Best part, hands down, however was when we killed Cairne (Still needed Sylvanas and Lor'themar), and we came back right as a Horde raid attacked IF.

[Ackley]

Yeah we got out of SMC at about 7:30 server time, just in time to smash a For the Horde raid in Stormwind, we camped them for a bit then I had to log.

Cytiana and Saviorman led the raid on Thrall, then Cyt had to leave for ICC, and we lost a chunk, then Carlos led for the rest of the time TB, UC, then SMC after we downed SMC we ran around looking for people, Cyrass and a few others tried to stop us but we outnumbered em.

But Necroxis is right, coming into IF after TB then seeing this horde raid there and smashing them right outside the throne room was epic fun.

[Swerto]

Bah, not a fast enough delete.

None the less, missed it because the person asking for people to show up had me on ignore, so I just kept doing whatever I was doing at the time (think I was ganking people in wintergrasp/icecrown)

[CytianaMoonarrow]

I feel kind of awesome having led a FTA on Orgrimmar. >.< Major boost to the ego.

I am however, really surprised, however, at the total cooperation of the people we got once we got everyone into vent. It was amaaazing.

[Wyrdassil]

Funny, because when people attacked SW earlier the other day, we stomped them out.

Good job on both sides.

[Niktika]

You did a good job Cytiana, and so did Carlos.

Oh wait, there was a trap...but i forgave him

[Urivial]

I'll probably never get an entire raid to followme off a cliff like that again :D but it was worth it. Soooooo worth it.

[Necroxis]

It was kinda hilarious when those 9 people died.

[Urivial]

It's too bad because the whole "everyone put yourselfon me as follow" worked well in keeping them together.. But I couldn't resist abusing the powah ._.

[Urivial]

Also, Zorati did a fair bit of leading too Bellicos, just throwing that out there.

[Ackley]

Also, Zorati did a fair bit of leading too Bellicos, just throwing that out there.

Sorry for not quoting "Everyone" who helped lead lol.

Maybe I could remember better if some douche didn't lead me off a cliff when I wasn't paying attention.

[Urivial]

Sorry for not quoting "Everyone" who helped lead lol.

Maybe I could remember better if some douche didn't lead me off a cliff when I wasn't paying attention.

d^.^b

[Rand_Shea]

City leaders should be like the epic villains and heroes of Coh/CoV... can't say that enough.

They should take a minimum of 40 people to kill, possibly more. Their very keeps should be fortified, or laden with traps at the very least if they don't opt to make them more powerful.

I miss the days when downing one was a phenomenal achievement... and not just one based on luck of how many other players were around to defend, or what time of the day or night the raid came to town.

I want to see the days when the chambers of the city leaders were laden in the skeletons of those who had failed... and I want the city leaders to make scathing commentary about them as well.

[Gorymoru]

^ this. Whole point of original post.

<3 Rand

[Malinos]

City leaders should be like the epic villains and heroes of Coh/CoV... can't say that enough.



Omg. Someone who's played! I love that game but there is not enough content for my Fire/Kin corruptor. After beating the Lord Recluse Strike Force (Harder than any raid in WoW imo. Picture fighting all 8 city leaders at the same time, with only 8 people in your group :o frikkin' Epic!) There's absolutely nothing else to do really.

[Tylorvias]

Omg I'm totally in that screen shot.

[Wolfley]

It was very fun. I admit I only joined because we were going to stick around in SMC after

[Villayna]

Reminder: Please respect your fellow players. This PVP section remains open and available to discuss PVP related topics ONLY if people can resist the urge to smack talk.

[Kredorian]

It is sad how easy they are now.

[Rand_Shea]

Omg. Someone who's played! I love that game but there is not enough content for my Fire/Kin corruptor. After beating the Lord Recluse Strike Force (Harder than any raid in WoW imo. Picture fighting all 8 city leaders at the same time, with only 8 people in your group :o frikkin' Epic!) There's absolutely nothing else to do really.

I got the Architect expac... I've been tempted to try it out again.

But I'd want to transfer off Guardian to maybe Virtue or some other server... and I don't want to spend money on that. lol

That does sound like an epic raid, though... I'd play again just to do that, even if I never played again.

What I loved about that game was that the developers actually CARED about their leaders, as much as they were ripoffs of well known DC and Marvel heroes and villains. There was no soloing of Lord Recluse, or even 5 manning... He literally took over 20 max level people pounding on him for upwards of 10 minutes (superheroes/villains, mind you... not the expertly trained but otherwise regular mortals of WoW) in the midst of a battlefield where enemy players were more than happy to add in to the mess, along with patrolling non-soloable elite mobs, and even player controlled giant mechs.

If you managed to kill Lord Recluse or any of his lieutenants, you got an achievement that you could not only show off, but would give you a bonus ability or permanent buff. So, it actually meant something to get together a group to pound on them.

It's really disappointing on Blizzard's part that they don't care enough about their lore characters and city leaders to make them at all formidable past mid-BC.

I suppose, at the very least though, they removed Bolvar and put him in a different spot before killing city leaders became even more of a joke.

[Malinos]

From what I hear Bolvar's AoE hammer of justice actually made him a challenge. But yeah, more interesting encounter mechanics would be refreshing. It'd be nice to have Jaina in Varian's throne room every once in a while, or the gnome king visiting Magni just to mix it up sometimes.

(Mmm fire/kinetics corruptor: A destro warlock with permanent heroism and the best aoe heal in the game, can't wait for the GR expansion, hope it comes out before Cata)

[Raynell]

Needs more "Death of Garrosh Hellscream", IMO.

[Urivial]

I agree with the heathen! (-steals catchphrases and doesn't afraid of anything-)

[Raynell]

Then get to it! Get your numbers and hit that guy!

And make sure Saurfang doesn't cleave you too hard.

[Ackley]

Wait, is there a level 80 Garrosh? I always thought it was just the outlands one.

(feel like a noob :O )

[Raynell]

Warsong Hold.

Last I saw you guys attempt it, Kainedchezmella was still around.

[Swerto]

"you guys"?

It was me, kained, carlos, and rohan... was about it.

[Urivial]

Another group went back a while later and did it Ray, I think Cav led it.

[Raynell]

Really? I could have sworn there was a whole bunch more (combo HRA/HLM), plus Cavanaugh.

[Urivial]

There were about 8, and I actually don't remember Swerto being one of them ._.


We failed miserably, but I was told that five people went back lator and suceeded.

[Jeedup]

I admit to getting my War Bear at a very late time at night, we got...some...resistance, but it was kinda laughable, though we did get a large group for it, so kinda not needed. But, it was a random thing, and well, don't really care.

[Kredorian]

I really don't like attacking Orgrimmar cause Thrall is boss....

I have also attacked Warsong hold a crap ton of times, killed Garrosh and left Saurfang up cause I heart him.

Mad bromace.... can't blame Jaina, tbh.

Carine rocks too... if its true that Carine will be dead, and Garrosh will be in Orgrimmar.... I have some attacks to plan ;-)

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I really don't like attacking Orgrimmar cause Thrall is boss....

I have also attacked Warsong hold a crap ton of times, killed Garrosh and left Saurfang up cause I heart him.

Mad bromace.... can't blame Jaina, tbh.

Carine rocks too... if its true that Carine will be dead, and Garrosh will be in Orgrimmar.... I have some attacks to plan ;-)

This reminds me... if he is MCable, we need to get a priest to MC Garrosh, and tape it as Saurfang and the Horde turning on him.

[Swerto]

He is not MCable.

[Chikt]

World bosses should get an overhaul in Cataclysm, but I don't think it will be to the degree a lot of you guys are calling for. Remember, there is unpredictability about the world and the events in it. You can say in an ICC raid "you need this many people with these roles to take down this boss", but that's not the case with world leaders. Not only do you have the factor of the amount of people attacking, you also have the defense factor. And I believe you will find that is why they are so easy - because Blizzard is expecting at LEAST equal numbers to turn up to defend world leaders when they are attacked.

That said.

You know what else is easy to take down with a small group of people in the early hours of the morning?

Your mother.

[Rand_Shea]

World bosses should get an overhaul in Cataclysm, but I don't think it will be to the degree a lot of you guys are calling for. Remember, there is unpredictability about the world and the events in it. You can say in an ICC raid "you need this many people with these roles to take down this boss", but that's not the case with world leaders. Not only do you have the factor of the amount of people attacking, you also have the defense factor. And I believe you will find that is why they are so easy - because Blizzard is expecting at LEAST equal numbers to turn up to defend world leaders when they are attacked.

That said.

You know what else is easy to take down with a small group of people in the early hours of the morning?

Your mother.

That's why I said make their keeps laden with traps or shit tons of resistance via NPCs, then. They don't need to be godlike, but they should be at least as fortified and protected as say... a REAL leader of a nation.

[Fhenrir]

Faction leaders were defended so fervently back in Vanilla as a matter of faction pride; before cross-faction BGs and paid transfers, all of the competent PvPers and PvEers competed much more frequently in combat and accomplishments with one another. To sum up before I sound like a cranky old man (again), it's largely a result of the change in dynamic that PvP and the game in general has shifted toward as time goes on. There's not much reason for anyone beyond nostalgic Vanilla players and rabid RP-nerds (see: me on both accounts) to care about the faction leaders dying anymore. They respawn in like 20 minutes anyway.

Also, second warning to lighten up on bashing people for differing opinions. I woulda just locked it already, but Villy came through and cracked down on jerkitude.

[Lysimachus]

I'll just say this: faction leaders need to be far more powerful, be given a greater incentive to be killed (though the war bear would be fine, except everyone seems to have it now), and have a higher respawn time (debatable, I'd say between 4 to 8 hours).

And that's that! I'll agree with some of you.

[Dahnek]

Faction leaders were defended so fervently back in Vanilla as a matter of faction pride; before cross-faction BGs and paid transfers

Well said. I also agree that there should be changes besides buffs made to the faction bosses. Loot gogo!

[Necroxis]

You should need to have a full 40man raid to even stand a chance. And that is before factoring in other players. They need to be much more exclusive about who kils them. Will people bitch? Yes but I'd rather hear QQ then "Varian just died for his 4th time tonight"

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

because Blizzard is expecting at LEAST equal numbers to turn up to defend world leaders when they are attacked.

The problem with this theory is that it doesn't work in reality.

As my old microeconomics professor said, if you have a great theory that doesn't work in reality, it's a bad theory and you should throw it out.

[Chikt]

The problem with this theory is that it doesn't work in reality.

As my old microeconomics professor said, if you have a great theory that doesn't work in reality, it's a bad theory and you should throw it out.

The alternative doesn't work IN THEORY either.

If you make the bosses more difficult to down, other servers will not be able to down them because of server population.

Our server is skewed in the Horde's favor as far as world PvP goes. You can only design for a perfect world. You can take things into account that will manipulate that perfect world design.

This isn't theory we're talking about - it's practice. Server population and active PvPers are variables that simply cannot be accounted for.

I bet if that Decimation group went at a peak hour, they'd not have gotten anywhere near Varian.

There is no perfect solution. There's no point even pretending there is one.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

There is no perfect solution. There's no point even pretending there is one.

That doesn't mean that a better solution does not exist.

[Chikt]

That doesn't mean that a better solution does not exist.

That doesn't mean that the current solution is bad, either. Consider the alternatives.

Servers with high population PvPers have their tougher world bosses become near impossible to kill.

Servers with low population PvPers see no real resolution to the issue because there is still a lack of people turning up to kill/defend world leaders.

The only servers that would see a dramatic change is the ones that are perfectly balanced. The perfect world scenario.

Is there a better solution out there? Sure. Game design isn't a precise art. It's also taste and audience. And given that this is World of Warcraft, more accessibility and ease to defeat world bosses beats out difficulty.

People will find things to nitpick about, and world leaders are one of those things that in the end have no real effect on gameplay, and are the least of Blizzard's worries as far as balance goes. IMO, World Leaders should always be a far lesser priority over class, race and faction balance.

[Jeedup]

What I think they should do, is not necessarily make it more difficult/easy depending on server population, is just generally, make it more FUN.

[Urivial]

What I think they should do, is not necessarily make it more difficult/easy depending on server population, is just generally, make it more FUN.

And more worth our time too IMO.

[Ackley]

Like I said, have him drop, lets say the current top pvp gear is Wrathful correct? World bosses drop pieces of this gear.

Also, honorable kills while defending your city? Worth like 100 honor a kill, this would certainly spice things up.

[Urivial]

You get 124 honor for a kill atm if you kill someone by yourself.

[Ackley]

You get 124 honor for a kill atm if you kill someone by yourself.

Well, that discourages organization in defense raids

[Chikt]

You get 124 honor for a kill atm if you kill someone by yourself.

You get thousands of honor overall if you spend time in a defense raid, because you're getting extra honor on targets you may have only accidentally AOE'd.

[Urivial]

I was just stating that honor has already been buffed.

[Ryoku]

Having them drop Wrathful is an awful idea. That's almost as terrible an idea as making a raid that drops a randomized assortment of 4 pieces of each class/specc's BIS PvP and PvE gear and distributed between 25 people based on a dice roll.

Wait a minute..

[Ackley]

Well played, you confused me by refuting my idea only to make a connection to VoA...

So, what are you getting at?

[Fhenrir]

His point (I believe) is that VoA was a terrible design decision for loot distribution, and would prefer that more mechanics of a similar nature aren't introduced.

[Icia]

Why is it a problem if it's too hard for people on some servers to down faction leaders?

Faction leaders are major lore players, and it SHOULD take something just short of a miracle to take them down.

[Chikt]

Why is it a problem if it's too hard for people on some servers to down faction leaders?

Faction leaders are major lore players, and it SHOULD take something just short of a miracle to take them down.

I think the problem is that A) Killing faction leaders is 75% a PvE endeavor, and B) Offer no real reward for the risk involved, besides an achievement and mount.

Blizzards current design means that faction leaders being an easy kill creates PvP inside cities. Groups are less worried about getting together to storm Orgrimmar to take down Thrall because it's doable. If Thrall was a nightmare to kill on top of all the people that rushed to his defense, nobody would ever bother, and we'd be back with the same issue we had back when faction leaders were harder - only groups of PvEers like First Legion could ever actually really down the Horde leaders.

Remember, it wasn't until late in BC and early in Wrath that somebody finally killed Sylvannas.

This isn't raiding content we're talking about. It's a world kill on a short respawn (compared to other world kills). You need to feel achieved taking down a world leader, and there needs to be a reason to make the attempt. I would wager that the whole point of the existence of the leaders is to give people that usually wouldn't PvP an incentive go to and PvP for an achievement and mount. Make that too difficult, and just how much frustration is a black bear worth?

WoW is all about accessibility now. People are meant to be able to get together casually and take down the Lich King according to this new design. It will be a huge surprise to me if they make world leaders near impossible to kill. And does anybody REALLY want to see Varian turn into a loot pinata for PvPer's gearing up for the next season, or PvEers getting some PvP gear for the lols?

It's just not going to happen.

[Rand_Shea]

Another thing City of Hereos/Villains did in regard to major encounters was that the difficulty of the encounter calculated the number of players in it, the level of the players, and even the ratio of archetypes that were involved upon engagement.

There was a giant Octopus that spawned every 4-6 hours in one of the zones that would do percentage based damage which was modified with increased level starting at the lowest starting level of the zone itself... The damage characters took would go higher the higher level they were, which ultimately made it so only tank characters could be trusted to hold aggro, because they had the defense stats to do it...

Damage on the mob scaled with level as well... Every level the characters were above the starting zone minimum, resistance by the mob was increased by some minute percentage that would gradually add up to being significant if it were max level characters, so no amount of DPS could just burn it down without there being so many it would have crashed the zone due to overpopulation. DPS had no way of getting enough defense to survive more than 2 hits, if they even survived 1.

Healing was the only thing NOT changed during encounters like that... Healing on its own was a huge challenge if you didn't know how to time things right.

If little 'ol upstart company Cryptic can make systems of combat like that in not just one MMO, but two? Imagine what Blizzard could do with just the basics of those concepts. They copy everything else, why not something that would actually provide a challenge?

Also... as for low-pop servers never being able to down world leaders, I fail to see how that is a bad thing. I remember when TN still had no server firsts on Sylvanus, and all that did was irritate Alliance egos enough to keep trying until they finally managed to do it. This was back during BC when high end raiding guilds had only just begun figuring out how to kill Illidan.

[Chikt]

Cities of Heroes/Villains and World of Warcraft are two very different games with very different design ideals. I'd be interested to see how many bosses in CoH/CoV scaled like that.

[Icia]

That's exactly what I mean. I see how it is currently set up, and I think it should not be. Faction leaders should not be killed every weekend, or more often in some cases. It should be a big deal when it happens. These are major characters that are not supposed to be killed by random gangs of nobodies.

[Swerto]

Personally I think they should drop the current VoA model approach they want to do with Tol Barad, and instead make the city leaders drop the PvP gear (and drop all of it). Up the hell out of their difficulty level, and scale it to current raid content.

[Jeedup]

Making city leaders drop PvP gear, would be abit silly, because then, they'd be downed almost hourly (or however long it takes to respawn). Change the respawn rate to something longer, it then makes that gear 'hard' to get, and unless the piece is worth the effort, is now pointless. Make the boss easier to down, it makes getting the gear that may either be better than whats available, or not, equally pointless. Make the boss more difficult, like changing the respawn, unless its worth it, its pointless.

The main thing is, downing faction leaders may be alot of fun, a mix of PvP and PvE (depending on when you do it), it's unfortunately, not that big a deal, and hasn't been since a few of the major changes at the end of classic. Alot of people really, no longer even want to do them except to get the mount, achievement, and maybe hope to incite some world PvP in cities. So really, theres little incentive, currently, for Blizzard to change it.

[Ryoku]

His point (I believe) is that VoA was a terrible design decision for loot distribution, and would prefer that more mechanics of a similar nature aren't introduced.

This is pretty much exactly what I mean.

I'll admit I'm incredibly biased on it since in the passed two seasons of near consistently running VoA every week I have never gotten a useful drop once (hell, this season I haven't even -seen- a Shaman drop), but with my bias aside I think that's entirely the problem with it.

I remember when the new boss opened up for S7 the first week of the season Yatokth got his pantaloons, and the same week (or the week after) Leoren got -his- pantaloons. I also know of people who within the first month got both hands and pantaloons and were set.

On top of that you have the fact that PvErs often end up with PvP gear they never use, and PvPers often end up with PvE gear they never use because of the fact that luck of the draw declared that gear to drop when there was nobody there to use it, and the fact that nowadays there are several people who are uninterested in PvP/PvE gear but will roll on it if it drops anyways simply to haggle it for gold from someone who actually needs it.

Stuffing that system onto faction leaders changes nothing about the stupidness of the mechanic, except makes it worse due to the fact that the faction leader exists in the world where hordes of several raids will likely just camp his respawn and make a big race for "who can tag the boss for loot first"

All in all, I am a staunch old man who believes gear should be earned. The fact that I, and many people like me have spent hours upon hours in VoA trying to get those drops with nothing to show for it, while others complete theirs in about an hour of work goes against that.

And that's why Swerto is wrong.

[Rand_Shea]

PvP gear might be a bit much.

But come Cataclysm, I don't see what would be wrong with there being a legendary weapon quest that would say.... require the BLOOD of every enemy city leader to forge it. Something that starts with a drop either in an instance, raid, or even just a random BoP/BoE epic and requires a metric shit-ton of materials that are super expensive/hard to get, topping that off with the final element of forging the weapon being that the player needs to get an army together to decimate the other faction's cities.

And like Quel'Delar sparking an event in Halls of Reflection, the quest would spark events in every faction capitol that would increase difficulty in a raid getting through the city and killing the faction leader, AND perhaps even offer rewards to people on that faction that can't be obtained anywhere else as incentive to come down and participate in protecting the cities and their leaders. Upscaled honor, pvp tokens, titles, semi-perma-buffs that would persist through death and increase exp/honor gain and stats for a certain amount of time. So, ultimately, even if someone is just on their lowbie and only manages to whap an enemy player once before dying horribly, it'd be worthwhile.

And to put an end to the 2AM "no one was on!" raids... difficulty on an NPC level would increase according to how low the server population in that city was, and perhaps even considering how many are AFK or bluewalled a certain amount of time after the event begins.

Killing the faction leader would still be a huge PvE fight, but with a very generous pvp incentive.

Also, Dio, when I played there were only 3 mobs that scaled that way... One being the Octopus, another being a gigantic war-mech that spawned when players finished a high level quest chain, and the third being Hamidon (whom at the time was the ultimate "raid boss"... as he encompassed half an entire zone), at least hero side. Villain side I knew of a couple but hadn't seen them prior to quitting the game... but they were planning to add more when they were scheduled to raise the level caps from 40-50.

I did Hamidon once as a healer... Over 40 people were in the group and there were assigned teams that were in charge of different parts of the encounter... There was the main tank and DPS group that went around killing mitochondria, a minor tank and healer group that kept aggro on the nucleus, a 'flying' healer group that followed the main tank and DPS around, and 'ground' healers that applied buffs and helped healing both groups but were mainly assigned to pick dead players back up. No raid in WoW has yet to match that level of complexity, even if the fight itself was relatively simple.

Though... a lot of big boss encounters were not designed to be raided... they were left as ends to quest chains that were to be taken down by 5 people. Actual 'raids' were based completely on level and only allowed a maximum of 10. The design IS primarily geared towards smaller groups to match the smaller player base, unlike WoW. Victories were more personal, though, rather than generic. If you killed or captured the leader of a gang, they were pretty much defeated for good and you were the one that put them away... in contrast, if you failed to save someone, it was a permanent failure. There really wasn't anyway to drop a quest and restart to try again.

But I still don't see that just because the concept is different why Blizzard wouldn't try something different with all the changes their making. People will eventually get over it being "tooooo haaaaaard" and find ways to plow through anyway. -_-

[Malinos]

I think Dio has good points about the city leaders accessibility to pugs. I stand that Sylvanas is the only leader that is a balanced challenge and the other encounters should be tuned to her level into something beyond a tank and spank. And you shouldn't be able to kite them into an easier area.

Sylvanas is still fairly simple with a fully equipped raid group. But smaller groups definitely have a greater challenge downing her than they do the other bosses.

[Chikt]

The problem with world leaders dropping gear is the lore. When you kill the Lich King and carry around a weapon or armor he dropped, it's proof of his demise at some point and becomes a part of the game lore. But if you go do a quest to get the blood of Cairne Bloodhoof for a legendary weapon, that's proof that Cairne Bloodhoof is technically dead and gone. It would cause even more confusion among RPers. While killing a faction leader right now is a strike to the ego, it's not permanent. How do we treat somebody that has actually gotten the blood of a faction leader - proof of their death - and uses it in RP?

Besides. I think it's just bad design to make faction leaders drop... well, much of anything. There's a reason that Blizzard has kept their mechanics the way they are right now.

And remember. This is the end of the expansion, and Blizzard has said that they disliked how armor scaled way too quickly. I do not doubt that, come Cataclysm, faction leaders will be difficult again because of gear not being nearly as powerful as it is right now.

[Rethius]

Besides. I think it's just bad design to make faction leaders drop... well, much of anything. There's a reason that Blizzard has kept their mechanics the way they are right now.



They drop gold.


Or was that just the druid guy?

[Lysimachus]

I like the idea of tokens. Just make the hellers drop specialized tokens of some sort that EVERYBODY participating gets and can turn in somewhere, and with enough time / dedication, everyone will get something.

I guess they kind of ARE doing that, but... they could do it on a different scale. I danno.

RNG ftl.

[Chikt]

They drop gold.


Or was that just the druid guy?

Gold =/= Proof of demise.

You can loot gold off of players corpses in PvP. Technically, world leaders are just player characters. Which makes sense to me.


I like the idea of tokens. Just make the hellers drop specialized tokens of some sort that EVERYBODY participating gets and can turn in somewhere, and with enough time / dedication, everyone will get something.

Tokens would make more sense. They're not a proof of demise and more a currency.

[Jeedup]

Gold =/= Proof of demise.

You can loot gold off of players corpses in PvP. Technically, world leaders are just player characters. Which makes sense to me.



Tokens would make more sense. They're not a proof of demise and more a currency.

'I beat Varian Wrynn so hard across the head he lost consiousness and I picked his pocket!'


'...though it was mostly lint.'

[Swerto]

The problem with world leaders dropping gear is the lore. When you kill the Lich King and carry around a weapon or armor he dropped, it's proof of his demise at some point and becomes a part of the game lore. But if you go do a quest to get the blood of Cairne Bloodhoof for a legendary weapon, that's proof that Cairne Bloodhoof is technically dead and gone. It would cause even more confusion among RPers. While killing a faction leader right now is a strike to the ego, it's not permanent. How do we treat somebody that has actually gotten the blood of a faction leader - proof of their death - and uses it in RP?

Besides. I think it's just bad design to make faction leaders drop... well, much of anything. There's a reason that Blizzard has kept their mechanics the way they are right now.

And remember. This is the end of the expansion, and Blizzard has said that they disliked how armor scaled way too quickly. I do not doubt that, come Cataclysm, faction leaders will be difficult again because of gear not being nearly as powerful as it is right now.


Not really, all our gear and armor is made by the ashen verdict, not 'dropped' by the bosses like it is in game.

[Jeedup]

Not really, all our gear and armor is made by the ashen verdict, not 'dropped' by the bosses like it is in game.

Except ya know, ones dropped by the bosses.

[Swerto]

Except ya know, ones dropped by the bosses.

Wrong, the only stuff that really drops off bosses as far as lore concerned are weapons and trinkets, unless it's a special armor piece that doesn't look identical to that nifty armor the ashen verdict/argent crusade/kirin tor made.

[Fynne]

Wrong, the only stuff that really drops off bosses as far as lore concerned are weapons and trinkets, unless it's a special armor piece that doesn't look identical to that nifty armor the ashen verdict/argent crusade/kirin tor made.

http://www.wowhead.com/item=29997 ?

[Ryoku]

I like the idea of tokens. Just make the hellers drop specialized tokens of some sort that EVERYBODY participating gets and can turn in somewhere, and with enough time / dedication, everyone will get something.

If only they did that with VoA...

*sniff*

[Swerto]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=29997 ?
Stuff like that yeah, I meant mostly with Wrath. Back in burning crusade a lot of the drop pieces looked different than the actual tier armor, same with vanilla WoW. Tier 7 content did to an extent, but for the most part there were the same basic 10 models.

[Rand_Shea]

The problem with world leaders dropping gear is the lore. When you kill the Lich King and carry around a weapon or armor he dropped, it's proof of his demise at some point and becomes a part of the game lore. But if you go do a quest to get the blood of Cairne Bloodhoof for a legendary weapon, that's proof that Cairne Bloodhoof is technically dead and gone. It would cause even more confusion among RPers. While killing a faction leader right now is a strike to the ego, it's not permanent. How do we treat somebody that has actually gotten the blood of a faction leader - proof of their death - and uses it in RP?

Besides. I think it's just bad design to make faction leaders drop... well, much of anything. There's a reason that Blizzard has kept their mechanics the way they are right now.

And remember. This is the end of the expansion, and Blizzard has said that they disliked how armor scaled way too quickly. I do not doubt that, come Cataclysm, faction leaders will be difficult again because of gear not being nearly as powerful as it is right now.

Getting blood doesn't necessarily prove demise either, really... especially in WoW.

You could collect the blood of players in Alterac Valley, but that sure didn't stop them from reappearing again 30 seconds later. You could've stabbed them, cleaved them, made them explode, shot them, or slapped them to death and they'd still come back with maybe only some armor dents to show for it.

If 20 people carrying around Shadowmourne is proof of demise of the Lich King, then... isn't that kinda contradictiary? How could 20 people ever have such a unique, lore-character-owned weapon? Did they clone him and make super uber copies?

It'd be no more 'lore' and "proof of demise" than it is for every other rogue on the server to have at least one of Illidan's warblades. It'd be a personal victory, if anything.

[Jeedup]

Wrong, the only stuff that really drops off bosses as far as lore concerned are weapons and trinkets, unless it's a special armor piece that doesn't look identical to that nifty armor the ashen verdict/argent crusade/kirin tor made.

Gear itself doesnt really reflect in lore to begin with, except for a few pieces we don't have access to, and even rarer ones were we do like Legendaries and a few epics, and there are plenty of non-set armor pieces that have dropped in ICC and even in the Tourney that wasn't 'crafted' by them, cause well, if Blizzard was wasting time making lore for every little piece of gear everywhere, it would explain...alot.

Oh, and if you're going by looks alone, then guess what, you're WRONG! See, I can do it too!
Just cause Blizzard started the trend of well, lazyness, with their models, doesn't mean every piece that shares the same texture, means its forged by the faction group where the more 'well known' pieces come from. Its just, lazyness is all, and nothing wrong with it. Games getting pretty big, so recycling textures is just getting more common place. Doesn't mean theres a massive lore reason behind it.

[Skaadvik]

I did not read a single post in this thread. However, varian wrynn is a stone cold badass and all horde stink.

[Urivial]

And Skaadvik comes in and cuts to the heart of the matter.
We're all baddies.


/thread.

[Raynell]

I did not read a single post in this thread. However, Anduin Lothar is a stone cold badass and all horde and Varian Wrynn stink.

Fixed.

[Gorymoru]

BOOLD TATER!!!

[Raynell]

BOOLD TATER!!!

Hey man, I may not be Alliance, but even I recognize the raw awesome that is Anduin Lothar.

[Zultingo]

Getting blood doesn't necessarily prove demise either, really... especially in WoW.

You could collect the blood of players in Alterac Valley, but that sure didn't stop them from reappearing again 30 seconds later. You could've stabbed them, cleaved them, made them explode, shot them, or slapped them to death and they'd still come back with maybe only some armor dents to show for it.

If 20 people carrying around Shadowmourne is proof of demise of the Lich King, then... isn't that kinda contradictiary? How could 20 people ever have such a unique, lore-character-owned weapon? Did they clone him and make super uber copies?

It'd be no more 'lore' and "proof of demise" than it is for every other rogue on the server to have at least one of Illidan's warblades. It'd be a personal victory, if anything.

lich king carries frostmourne yo.

[Swerto]

Only one person has shadowmourne, and Blizzard probably will invent some lore character in the future to give it to if they care enough, otherwise it'll just be 'your' story if you have it, and not reflect on other people.

[Jeedup]

Only one person has shadowmourne, and Blizzard probably will invent some lore character in the future to give it to if they care enough, otherwise it'll just be 'your' story if you have it, and not reflect on other people.

Have they done this with the other Legendaries? Cause I don't think they have, and don't know why they'd bother doing the it with this one either.

[Swerto]

They did it with an epic weapon though, they've done it with other items.

They did it with the onyxia kill credit.

They do it all the time, just because they haven't done it with a legendary yet doesn't mean they won't, doesn't mean they will with Shadowmourne either, of course. If that's all your going to take from my post you misread it's intended point which was 'there is only one shadowmourne'.

[Jeedup]

They do it all the time, just because they haven't done it with a legendary yet doesn't mean they won't, doesn't mean they will with Shadowmourne either, of course. If that's all your going to take from my post you misread it's intended point which was 'there is only one shadowmourne'.

I did not misread your post at all. Here, I'll even repost it.


Only one person has shadowmourne, and Blizzard probably will invent some lore character in the future to give it to if they care enough, otherwise it'll just be 'your' story if you have it, and not reflect on other people.

You said, only one person has Shadowmourne, yet, you failed to specify: One person on Twisting Nether? If that, then no, as both Heindrich (before he transfered), and Stav/Boulderdash definitely have it, and most likely someone from Space People. If you ment lore wise, again, I haven't seen it anywhere that they've done something like that for a specific weapon outside of Ashbringer, which unfortunately, no one could even fully get anyways. I could see them doing that with Highlord Darion Morgaine, but through out the quest, he definitely gives off the feel that he think its abit of a bad idea to begin with, but then, he could also be trying to outsource the main work anyways! Are you talking about from an RP standpoint? This seems the most way but unfortunately, is impossible. If this was going to happen, then Blizzard would only make it available once. But then that wouldn't make sense, and well, be impossible, in many ways. Fynne isn't the only one with the Warglaives, as there are quite a few around, but he can RP he has them though! People can or cannot acknowledge that its the one and only real deal, but thats up to them.

If you want to misread my post that had actual questions, and instantly take it as a personal attack, thats just fine ;) But don't feel bad.

[Swerto]

You're still missing the point of my post.

One person has it

Just like only one group defeated Algalon

Just like one group defeated C'thun

Just like one group....


You get my drift? We can't really say WHO did it or we're forcing credit. It's up to each roleplayer to decide, I personally give credit to the people I think deserve it. In most cases that means the people who get realm first kills, but the people I give credit to aren't going to be the same as the people you give credit to. Hell the Grim gives credit for everything they do to themselves, and that's fine within the confines of THEIR RP. My point is that there is only one shadowmoune going around, and if I ever got one (I won't) that would be me carrying the 'only' shadowmourne. But for jobob who also got his shadowmourne he is the one carrying it around, if we ever run into eachother we might have to ignore shadowmourne completely if we want to avoid RP issues.

Oh and we already have multiple shadowmournes on our serve, Theestar (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&cn=Theestar) has his.

[Jeedup]

You're still missing the point of my post.

One person has it

Just like only one group defeated Algalon

Just like one group defeated C'thun

Just like one group....


You get my drift? We can't really say WHO did it or we're forcing credit. It's up to each roleplayer to decide, I personally give credit to the people I think deserve it. In most cases that means the people who get realm first kills, but the people I give credit to aren't going to be the same as the people you give credit to. Hell the Grim gives credit for everything they do to themselves, and that's fine within the confines of THEIR RP. My point is that there is only one shadowmoune going around, and if I ever got one (I won't) that would be me carrying the 'only' shadowmourne. But for jobob who also got his shadowmourne he is the one carrying it around, if we ever run into eachother we might have to ignore shadowmourne completely if we want to avoid RP issues.

Oh and we already have multiple shadowmournes on our serve, Theestar (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&cn=Theestar) has his.


Unfortunately, nothing is going to solve this, as it isn't an easy issue, nor honestly, one that really needs to be addressed, thats just the nature of the game. If it was really going to be just about one person, it'd be a single player game. Again, you're unfortunately getting caught in the blurry zone of game mechanics and lore mechanics. How people deal with those issues is really just up to them, and I've never run into a problem with that so far, which has been nice.

[EnheilRas]

Have they done this with the other Legendaries? Cause I don't think they have, and don't know why they'd bother doing the it with this one either.

Atiesh

[Jeedup]

Atiesh

Eh, that was a cheap slap in the face by Blizzard, and was done somewhat slyly, and Blizzard could easily say: 'Since you can no longer get it, thats why', but could also be said, that the Legendaries the players could get, was a fraction of what it was before.

See? RP reason around it, but then muddled by game mechanics.

[Necroxis]

Med'an has Atiesh.

[Jeedup]

Med'an has Atiesh.

Yes, I know this, Thats what I ment in my post, just didn't actually say it, durp.

[Necroxis]

I know, just wanted to state it.

[Jeedup]

I know, just wanted to state it.

Did you cough up bile like when I read it?

[Necroxis]

Meh. It was after Aegwynn died so I was sufficiently annoyed already.

[Ackley]

Thread has was derailed like 3 pages ago.

Who cares about rp weapons? In none of my stories do I ever go into great detail about what kind of weapon it is, just like his huge double sided axe or something.

[Necroxis]

Some people do. I like to elaborate on my character's weapons, especially my Warlock's stuff, because for some classes, their weapons are a major part of "what they are"

[EnheilRas]

All I wanted to do was invalidate a claim.

My job is done.

PROVING PEOPLE WRONG ON THE INTERNET ONE THREAD AT A TIME!

Wooooosh!

[Jeedup]

All I wanted to do was invalidate a claim.

My job is done.

PROVING PEOPLE WRONG ON THE INTERNET ONE THREAD AT A TIME!

Wooooosh!

You didn't invalidate a claim, you answered a question:

Have they done this with the other Legendaries? Cause I don't think they have, and don't know why they'd bother doing the it with this one either.

I honestly wasn't sure. Actually what came to mind was Sulfuras, which was the first Legendary (or was Thunderfury?), and thought one of those might have been given to an NPC by now. It's abit confusing now though with Atiesh, seriously looks like Blizzard kinda ignored that it was once an obtainable item by players, or maybe they think that if it could be obtained before, why not a 'lore character' especially since you can't assemble it anymore, or maybe, maybe, they just didn't know wtf was going on to begin with the comic.

But, have a cookie anyways, so you can feel special.

[Fhenrir]

This appears to have run its course.