Payin for Raidin

[Phelix]

Alright this'll just be for roleplaying then. Heh cept as a response to people who bug random priests to be healers...

~Healer for standard 5 man dungeon~
~10s per boss

~Main Healer for standard 10 man dungeon~
~15s for easy boss
~30s for medium boss
~60s for difficult boss

~Secondary Healer for standard 10 man dungeon*~
~10s for easy boss
~20s for medium boss
~40s for difficult boss

~Main healer for 25 man raid*~
~25s for easy boss
~50s for medium boss
~1g for difficult boss

~BGs~
~5s for Loss
~15s for Win
+1s for every 5 minutes past first 15 minutes (so 6g for a loss at 20 minutes, 7 at 25 minutes, 8 at 30 minutes etc etc)

[Grayslin]

It seems like an interesting concept character-wise, but to be honest, if you go this route, you'll be walking a pretty tricky tightrope unless you only attempt to enact this with people you know well.

[Broxigan]

~Healer for standard 5 man dungeon~
~10g per boss

Remind me not to go to Gundrak with you D:

Interesting concept, but wow. XD

[Phelix]

It seems like an interesting concept character-wise, but to be honest, if you go this route, you'll be walking a pretty tricky tightrope unless you only attempt to enact this with people you know well.

Yes, well what business isn't risky? I would need people to know I'm fair and that I won't scam them, which requires me to get some customers willing to try me out, and if all goes well I can have people vouch for me.

[Phelix]

Remind me not to go to Gundrak with you D:

Interesting concept, but wow. XD

Hmmm not completely familiar with Gundrak, but online it looks like it only has 5 bosses, that would be 50g for the entire run, assuming nothing drops for me.

[Grayslin]

I would also note that most raid leaders I know would prefer to bring someone who wants to go rather than someone who wants to be paid. It's also liable to rub some folks the wrong way.

I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, just that - as you say - it's a very risky proposition.

Edit: Especially when you look at what blizz has done with the cross server dungeon tool. It's a lot easier to find what you need nowadays than it was back in the vanilla and BC days.

[Keraph]

I actually think it's a pretty clever idea XD I can just see how it would rub people the wrong way. Perhaps I should adapt a similar principal for my own healing xD

[Maithanet]

So I'm going to be starting a Goblin Priest come Cataclysm, and in the nature of both goblins and the game I was wondering how much would you pay for a healer for any particular group? Below I've set up a sort of "menu" of services.

Having a "Mercenary" guild (In all but actions) and as a raid leader I pay my members in loot, boss kills and progression and I would pay 0 gold for the "privilege" of someone coming along.

Good luck to you though.

[Svetlaena]

Remind me to never group with you. Srsly.

[Rikt]

What everyone else said, it’s a very goblin concept and it seems like an interesting twist. However, I would imagine a lot of people will not like or agree to it. Be prepared to get a lot of hate and ignores thrown your way.

Just stick to your guns and play how you want to play. I wish you good luck on this.

[Keraph]

I think it'd be a system I'd use when people were trying to get me to do stuff for them that I don't really feel like doing.

"Hey bro, could you heal x heroic for our group?", "Yo dawg, wanna heal ToC10? Just short one healer", "HALP HALP AHM BEIN GANKED COME HEAL SO WE CAN COUNTER"

I don't care about your problems, see my prices and we'll talk x3

[Lisbet]

I think people are taking you to seriously.

Do yourself a favor - charge silver instead of gold (seeing how its an RP mechanic rather then a 'ooc' one.) or, give the gold back at the end of the run/blabla/raid/whatever as a gesture of good OOC will.

~*Leslie chews on her ciggar* "I charge 45 per monster, not countin' minions and expendables. I charge 5 fer per resurrection, so don't stand in fire."((You'll get it back at the end/silver, not gold^_^))


Also I would recommend you know how to play the priest class and now how to push the right buttons --- even in rp, charging for terrible service is bad juju.

[Maithanet]

I think people are taking you to seriously.

He seems 100% committed to the idea based on various replies, I don't think offering him a serious response in return is unwarranted.

[Broxigan]

Silver would be much more reasonable.

Gold seems a bit...much, even with how easy it is to get gold. Four dailies time = 1 instance run time [usually]. Four dailies will net you just over 50 gold. I'm not really saavy on giving over 50g for an instance like Gundrak. Not to mention how broke 'casual' tanks usually seem to be, since gearing them to tip top shape is expensive as balls and wipes do not help.

I just couldn't imagine actually paying someone for something like an instance run. MAYBE I would on some of the achievements for Glory, but with the LFD tool, I would much rather wait a couple more minutes on a healer.

It's a very interesting concept and would work out great in other forms, but I think with the way Warcraft is designed, despite how lorefitting it may be, would end up hurting more than helping.

[Anthek]

"Pay you to heal me? If you want some treasure from this place, you should be paying me for keeping those monsters off of you."

That'd be my reaction for about every character.

[Feorn]

I also think it might work, however...

You'd need to keep your gear in tip-top shape. Ideal enchants/gems/reforges/whatever.

You'd also need to be damned good. Even now there are plenty of 'good' and 'average' priests looking for a raiding slot in a regular group.

I think your best bet to keep to the mercenary mindset would be to just join GDKP raids and charge to heal chain heroic runs. Even with the current amount of gold going out your prices would be more than met by almost any GDKP run, I can only imagine that will increase with cataclysm.

[Cristok]

I think its a great idea. In fact you could simply bill people later on with a long elaborate reciept of services and they can pay if they want to.

[Sejarki]

I agree that this is more likely to work for 5-mans. Raid territory gets really sketchy.

I'd also refuse to extra for your deaths.

[Domni]

It's a very goblin scheme and it'd be cute for roleplaying. I agree that it'd be better to "charge" in silver and roleplay it out rather actually expect funds to change hands.

If you are considering this seriously, thankfully you'll be a goblin. You could expect a very blunt response from me as a raid leader if you asked for payment to come to a raid. If I even considered paying someone to join the raid, they would forfeit any chance at loot in exchange for the payment. And I can't imagine why I would consider it.

Be wary of any schemes that put try to you into superiority over other players.

If a player ever did want to offer their service for hire, they would have to remember that it's a "service" and be humble about it. If I wanted to rent a healer or a tank for Heroics, I'd drop 50g and expect an amazing healer/tank who came for three heroics of my choice with no complaints, stuck through wipes, achievements, low dps, etc. It's a service, damnit. I'm not paying you to be a petty princess.

[Raynell]

"Pay you to heal me? If you want some treasure from this place, you should be paying me for keeping those monsters off of you."

That'd be my reaction for about every character.

I second this statement.

[Keraph]

Like I said, best used when someone's trying to get you to heal something you really don't wanna XD

[Phelix]

Well first off, like I stated, if I earn any loot from a downed boss, I don't charge (just doesn't seem right if I earn money)

Second I won't send tells to people like "If you will pay me I will join" I'm not begging for business, if I ask to join a raid you can bet your ass I won't charge because most likely I will need the raid for some reason (quests etc)

Third, of course I'm going to be good, I wouldn't imagine charging for sub-par healing skills. I'll do my research, have Vent/TS ready. Listen, stay through wipes, not complain etc. I'm on the job.

Fourth, I'm not insane, I wouldn't charge if my death was caused by my own stupidity (and I like to think I can tell the difference)

Fifth, if for any reason I had to leave early I would refund a reasonable amount (leaving before first boss was downed=full refund, leaving in between bosses would refund % based on number of bosses that had been downed)

~Example~
5 easy boss dungeon (group hires me for all 5 bosses)=50g
5 day lockout=50g
totals: 100g
Something comes up (emergency, loss of power etc) between the 3rd & 4th bosses, I refund the group 40g, as I only worked for 60% of the dungeon.

I'm just trying to be fair with prices. And of course I wouldn't even start this until I was 85, and decently geared to do raiding. The price wouldn't just be for a healer, but a GOOD healer, one who won't leave on a whim, or decide the group is to "noobish." and knows how to play their class.

[Svetlaena]

This still sounds really egotistical and ridiculous, and Svetlaena will be glad to take any raid/dungeon spots you get denied because of your methods.

[Phelix]

"Pay you to heal me? If you want some treasure from this place, you should be paying me for keeping those monsters off of you."

That'd be my reaction for about every character.

but I'm not the one in need of the treasure!

I don't go around seeking a job (unless the job is advertised), If people need me they will ask.

of course I'd pay you if I needed something, and couldn't find a tank. Assuming I could afford you oh great and powerful meat shield. ;)

[Phelix]

This still sounds really egotistical and ridiculous, and Svetlaena will be glad to take any raid/dungeon spots you get denied because of your methods.

Well I'm sorry I sound egotistical, but I wouldn't get many jobs if I advertised. "Bad/Mediocre Priest willing to raid for gold"

Again, I won't charge anything for dungeons I need (am running repeatedly for specific gear, need to finish a quest in it etc)

[Svetlaena]

I say it's egotistical because you're implying with these methods that your heals are so amazing that people should pay you for them, that's all.

Tons of people myself included will happily take your denied spots for free.

EDIT: I thought of a way to tone down the egoism: your pay is deducted every time you screw up somehow.

[Sejarki]

~Example~
5 easy boss dungeon (group hires me for all 5 bosses)=50g
5 day lockout=50g
totals: 100g
Something comes up (emergency, loss of power etc) between the 3rd & 4th bosses, I refund the group 40g, as I only worked for 60% of the dungeon.

Take into account it's harder to find a replacement in the middle of a raid than the beginning of a raid. The further you get in the less people want to join, as well it's a bit of a disservice for whoever replaces you. Especially if one of you're selling points is that healers are scarce (which I disagree with)? No, full refund.

[Okhu]

Poorly thought out idea. If most people are like myself you won't be finding much work anyhow since Random Dungeon = More rewards with random people, instead of "Hey I gotta pay some healer for a run that might not get finished."

[Keraph]

I still see the logic in it, but perhaps that's because every time I log on I get like eighty requests for me to heal shit that I usually can't gain a damn thing from. In such cases, I wouldn't mind makin a little GP to lend my otherwise unwilling services :3 If they're not interested, that's hardly my loss XD

[Svetlaena]

In conclusion, as I am wrapping up my presence in this thread :D

Good idea in theory but as Ohku says it's poorly thought out. Healers aren't scarce, good healers kind of are, but I can tell you no one is going to want to literally pay you. No one. RP out the payment but actually exchange no coin? Fine. That's fun stuff.

If you go through with this and charge these sums of actual gold, word will spread and no one will want you in their raid, and healers that just like to do it for fun and not even necessarily lootz will be given your spot.

[Phelix]

Take into account it's harder to find a replacement in the middle of a raid than the beginning of a raid. The further you get in the less people want to join, as well it's a bit of a disservice for whoever replaces you. Especially if one of you're selling points is that healers are scarce (which I disagree with)? No, full refund.

Hmmmm, very good point. Though a full refund might not be fair to me either. Perhaps I should use a scaling system instead then? So....

Same example

after 1st boss: 80% refund
after 2nd boss: 65% refund (60% in first example)
after 3rd boss: 50% refund (40% in first example)
after 4th boss: 40% refund (20% in first example)

despite there only being 20% of the dungeon left I would give 40% of what I had earned back.


I say it's egotistical because you're implying with these methods that your heals are so amazing that people should pay you for them, that's all.

Tons of people myself included will happily take your denied spots for free.


I see. I didn't mean that my healing is any better than another professional would be. Merely that I am willing to do it without any sort of complaining, whining, loot, or leaving (barring emergencies of course) and I am willing to join groups in progress, and it really doesn't matter what dungeon we are doing. Not many healers (unless they are feeling really nice) would join a 4 hour raid when none of the loot is any good for them.



EDIT: I thought of a way to tone down the egoism: your pay is deducted every time you screw up somehow.

Thats a good idea. Hard to make a formula, but perhaps something like 25% of the jobs pay per group member I let die? (being that there will be 4+ me if on any given boss I let all 4 of my group members die, even if I live I earn nothing, as I didn't do my job) What do you think?

(Edit: I gotta go for now but I will be checking in later to hear your thoughts)

[Domni]

There's also the frustration of a raid leader having to pay out of pocket for a raid spot to be filled. Granted, there are bad raid leaders who really contribute nothing to the success of the raid. They might have plenty of gold to throw out and see no problem with this.

But I'm actively engaged in the raids that I lead. And it requires a lot of planning, energy, patience, and diplomacy. It can be exhausting. And then someone wants me to pay, out of my pocket, to fill a raid spot? Look, I'm one of the nice raid leaders that puts BoE items up for main spec rolls instead of selling for personal profit.

Think about what you're asking of someone. Either one player to pay you or 24 players to pitch in so they can be graced by your presence. That's not going to annoy anyone, right?

Healers aren't that hard to come by.

My dislike of the idea in practice aside, I think it's entertaining in theory and could be a fun roleplaying bit. I like the idea of sending a detailed receipt afterwards. It's neat and requires effort to track everything. It also combines roleplaying with raiding without becoming mind boggling.

Now I do see valid practice of this in World PvP. People being ganked? Major event taking place? Thirty minutes of honest effort protection for 30g, or somesuch value. You don't take durability damage, get to have fun with PvP, and are fulfilling your "mercenary" goals in a tangible environment. And if you fail, you reduce your cost.

[Moknim]

Healers aren't scarce, good healers kind of are

I think this is the crux of your problem. For a heroic - healers aren't very scarce AND you don't have to be very good for the group to be successful. So why would I pay you to heal my dungeon when I could get a random healer for free and do just as well? My wait (as a dps) is 12 minutes or so, my wait (as a dps with a healer attached) is maybe 8 minutes. You saved me 4 minutes and want me to pay you 10g per boss? Tanks are a different story - and I have spammed trade on my tanks and gotten paid for an instaqueue. I usually charge like 10-15g for it per DPS. I wouldn't have a problem as a dps paying that, so I feel its pretty fair.

Supply and demand - the demand for healers really isn't that high for heroics. For a PuG raid, its a different story. But then, I would only pay you if it is something you out-geared and was a pain to find someone to heal (for example - no one really wants to do ToC10 right now, so I would pay for an overgeared healer to come to it, but I would pay maybe 50g).

Just my .02

[Ansha]

Blades of Lordaeron has always been a 'mercenary' guild, though as Aerdir said above, the 'spoils' and pay tend to come down more like a 17th century pirate's pay: shares of loot. In practice, it's really hard to pull off a mercenary guild. Way back when BoL was Alliance, I think we IC requested payment for showing up at an RP-PVP event (the Loch Modan Dam incident, I think) and actually got gold out of it, but that was a rarity.

RPing a mercenary who wants gold for payment is just hard in this game.

Ansha, too, is a bit of a mercenary. She charges for information, but she requests Ruined Tomes and other in-game "book"/"lore" items in return. I think this works better, honestly, because people don't think I'm being egotistical or greedy by charging gold.

[Dahnek]

Good healers aren't rare enough to make even a quarter of the populace desperate enough consider this option, esp given the new LFG tool. Offer handjobs with it and maybe then

[Evanthe]

I'd keep it an RP mechanic and charge in silver.

[Phelix]

Guess I'll just keep it RP.... oh well, guess I'll just make my money with alchemy...

Thanks for the responses all

(I really wasn't being mean, I just always liked the idea of mercenary work, as opposed to working for a specific belief or set of ideals)

Ill change my wording to silver from gold

heh, with any luck it'll pay my repair costs...

[Ansha]

Guess I'll just keep it RP.... oh well, guess I'll just make my money with alchemy...

Thanks for the responses all

(I really wasn't being mean, I just always liked the idea of mercenary work, as opposed to working for a specific belief or set of ideals)

Ill change my wording to silver from gold

heh, with any luck it'll pay my repair costs...

Mercenary guilds/individuals are actually a fun RP concept; unfortunately, it's hard to implement in-game.

[Chikt]

You're not taking it far enough. Make your Goblin "Gods Gift to the World" and charge people JUST to be in their very presence.

[Phelix]

You're not taking it far enough. Make your Goblin "Gods Gift to the World" and charge people JUST to be in their very presence.

:D YES!

[Dahnek]

(I really wasn't being mean, I just always liked the idea of mercenary work, as opposed to working for a specific belief or set of ideals)



I think we all understood that. We just wanted you to stop the crazy-talk. :D

[Skaadvik]

I've seen tanks do this, and i've been paid to heal heroics before.

[Maithanet]

I've considered having people pay me to come to a random dungeon with me, I've seen others do it in trade, but you can probably get away with it more in 5mans as a well geared tank (Because you're paying for the instant queue and gear).

I then realize just how lazy I am.

[Phelix]

I think we all understood that. We just wanted you to stop the crazy-talk. :D

I didn't think it was crazy talk.....I thought it was a good idea.....:rolleyes: