"Who Deserves Northern Lordaeron"

[Raynell]

I'm interested in what they'll do to WPL with the announcement that it won't be as plague-y.

[Imirak]

I'm interested in what they'll do to WPL with the announcement that it won't be as plague-y.

I'm looking forward to a lot of the terrain changes.

Less fel and plague taints would be a nice change.

[Swerto]

I'm pissed.. because it's Lordaeron territory and should be made more FORSAKEN-EY because we took it the hell over.

[Wobblebonk]

I'm pissed.. because it's Lordaeron territory and should be made more FORSAKEN-EY because we took it the hell over.

They didn't say that the Forsaken presence wouldn't increase in the Plaguelands. In fact, I would bet on it.

[Jeedup]

I'm pissed.. because it's Lordaeron territory and should be made more FORSAKEN-EY because we took it the hell over.

Are you referring to Gilenas? Cause if you are, it's definatly NOT Lordaeron territory, though I am shocked with the Forsaken's love of catapults and plauge barrels, then never thought of hurling a few over the wall and see what happens.

If your referring to the Plaugelands, I dunno. I see that more as a 'dead' zone, because of the Scourges presence there, atleast in the current content that is. Eastern Pluagelands could easily be revitialized by the Argent Dawn/Argent Crusade, or even the Ebon Vanguard.

[Swerto]

Yes, I am talking about Gilneas because I'm a complete lore nub and haven't written extensively on the subject in this very forum.


/sarcasmoff

And plaguelands are Lordaeron, just north of Forsaken territory (which also has scourge and scarlet presence) We also had a strong presence in the plaguelands because they were OUR lands, we were trying to take them back from the scourge but lacked the numbers to do it solo. With the help of those lame ass elves and the Horde, it should have easily became ours again. The fact the Alliance snuck around the Forsaken and are claiming it pisses me off just a little bit, especially since it's Lordaeron territory and should officially go to the remnants of the kingdom (the Forsaken) not Stormwind.

[Zultingo]

Lordaeron=/=Forsaken
Especially considering your queen used to be an elf anyway.
Plaguelands were totally part of Lordaeron, but Lordaeron kinda ceased to be after arthas murdered everything, the forsaken never really claimed plaguelands, so it's not theirs.
Also, for a land that you claim to belong to the forsaken, there's an awful deficit of forsaken in either of the plaguelands.
If the forsaken even had a town in either of the plaguelands, I might consider your argument, but it's pretty much just the Argent Dawn and the Scarlets holdin' down that place.
Oh, and all the zombies.

[Swerto]

so all that remains of the people of lordaeron (considering ever Forsaken player is from Lordaeron) don't have claim to their own lands... but the far away kingdom of Stormwind does?

Take care of your own lands and leave Forsaken lands alone

[Jikara]

I've heard rumors of Stromgarde being rebuilt a number of times and wondering if anyone knew where these rumors may have started.

[Netharius]

I've heard rumors of Stromgarde being rebuilt a number of times and wondering if anyone knew where these rumors may have started.Not a clue, but it is possible. I mean, the Alliance has quests in the remaining portion of controlled Stromgarde; it's always possible that Refugee Point was sacked and the Alliance took back more of the city.

Of course, it would never be a capital. Maybe an Alliance stronghold, though.

so all that remains of the people of lordaeron (considering ever Forsaken player is from Lordaeron) don't have claim to their own lands... but the far away kingdom of Stormwind does?Think of it like Arathi Basin. The Humans there have been there since Lordaeron was part of the Alliance. The Forsaken have been there just as long (they were originally the same group of humans). Who has the right to the land?

[Urivial]

Thats not the same whatsoever, both groups there have the same right to the land and are fighting for it because of that, Stormwind has NO right to Lorderan.

[Swerto]

Exactly.

Lordaeron belongs to its citizens, and not to the far off kingdom of Stormwind which abandoned it to its fate.

Also, AB isn't a fight to see who has right over the land...

The Forsaken are trying to cut off Alliance supply lines and the Alliance are fighting to protect their supply lines and their land (take note that the survivors of that kingdom have allied themself with the Alliance and consider themselves part of it, while they are still separate from Stormwind they still have claim)

Lordaeron no longer exists because it was annihilated. The only living city that remains of Lordaeron is Southshore.

The rest of Lordaeron is split between four groups (when cataclysm hits there will only be two left): The Scourge, The Forsaken (those who broke free from the Scourge's grasps), the Scarlet Crusade, and The Argent Dawn/Crusade (those who left the scarlets). All four have equal claim to the land, and the Argent Crusade isn't part of the Alliance, they are neutral.

[ázul]

Exactly.

Lordaeron belongs to its citizens, and not to the far off kingdom of Stormwind which abandoned it to its fate.

Also, AB isn't a fight to see who has right over the land...

The Forsaken are trying to cut off Alliance supply lines and the Alliance are fighting to protect their supply lines and their land (take note that the survivors of that kingdom have allied themself with the Alliance and consider themselves part of it, while they are still separate from Stormwind they still have claim)

Lordaeron no longer exists because it was annihilated. The only living city that remains of Lordaeron is Southshore.

The rest of Lordaeron is split between four groups (when cataclysm hits there will only be two left): The Scourge, The Forsaken (those who broke free from the Scourge's grasps), the Scarlet Crusade, and The Argent Dawn/Crusade (those who left the scarlets). All four have equal claim to the land, and the Argent Crusade isn't part of the Alliance, they are neutral.

But isnt Lordaeron Stormwinds sister kingdom? They're kinda connected. I think it gives us a bit of inheritance considering our presence is still apparent(Gilneas,Southshore ect.) Not our fault u guys fell to the taint of the scourge.

We will raise Anduin better.

[Swerto]

But isnt Lordaeron Stormwinds sister kingdom? They're kinda connected. I think it gives us a bit of inheritance considering our presence is still apparent(Gilneas,Southshore ect.) Not our fault u guys fell to the taint of the scourge.

We will raise Anduin better.
Except you know the Forsaken are LORDAERON, so there it is. It is THEIR kingdom. They're living in the ruins of their home.

Stormwind has no more claim on Lordaeron than Canada does on Japan if it got wiped out.

[Wobblebonk]

No, the Forsaken are the former citizens of Lordaeron who, through a series of unfortunate circumstances, betrayed their homeland against their will and forfeited their claim to it. The rightful heirs to Lordaeron are its human allies who fought the Scourge while the Lordaeron populace, so easily corrupted by cultists, consumed itself.

[Leyujin]

No, the Forsaken are the former citizens of Lordaeron who, through a series of unfortunate circumstances, betrayed their homeland against their will and forfeited their claim to it. The rightful heirs to Lordaeron are its human allies who fought the Scourge while the Lordaeron populace, so easily corrupted by cultists, consumed itself.

The only heirs to a place are the ones who grew up on it. Anything else are colonialists and immigrants. Problem is, the Forsaken *are* the former populace of Lordaeron, and thus when they fight for their land, they know it inside and out, and have a personal attachment to the place. Any Stormwind civilians or soldiers don't have that advantage.

Either way, I don't think it matters. The former Plaguelands are between Undercity and Silvermoon, for god's sake. The only Alliance encampment is an SI:7 set up. There's no way for logistics to set up any major Alliance presence (See being located between two Horde-aligned CAPITALS.) The Plaguelands will return to the control of the people of Lordaeron, one way or another. Unless Fordring/Morgraine cuts a deal in the Eastern part of it.

[Chikt]

Since when do Zombies have rights?

God. If Zombies have rights, I am not looking forward to the Apocalypse. It'll suddenly have a lot more red tape.

[Rethius]

Since when do Zombies have rights?

God. If Zombies have rights, I am not looking forward to the Apocalypse. It'll suddenly have a lot more red tape.

Kill all sons of bitches.

[Swerto]

Your post was so unfunny I had to go to Æ to get my lols.

[Netharius]

The more I think about it, the more I realise that the war between the Scarlet Crusade and the Forsaken isn't a war. Not in the traditional sense.

It's a civil war. They're both fighting to "retake" their land, except its the same land, and its both of theirs.

Anyways, this has slid so far off topic it took me a moment to realise this thread was originally about Gnomeregan and Echo Isles.

[Chikt]

Kill all sons of bitches.

Datz mai offical intructeon.


Your post was so unfunny I had to go to Æ to get my lols.

I'm actually being serious to some degree. I mean, even if Zombies were self-aware and capable of their own choices like the Forsaken are, would humans REALLY give them rights? Said Zombies/Forsaken might feel they have the right to their old homes, but really, they're zombies. To human beings they probably have about as much right to owning property as a dog. That won't stop the Forsaken fighting for it, though.


Anyways, this has slid so far off topic it took me a moment to realise this thread was originally about Gnomeregan and Echo Isles.

Well really, it's about Datamined Pre-Cataclysm spoilers. And while the information on the Western Plaguelands wasn't datamined, it's certainly Pre-Cataclysm spoilers that it'll be a little less Plague-y in future. So it's still something of a valid discussion.

That said, I don't think talking about the land rights of the walking dead will get us anywhere.

[Imirak]

I'm actually being serious to some degree. I mean, even if Zombies were self-aware and capable of their own choices like the Forsaken are, would humans REALLY give them rights?

If they are able to comprehend the concept for individual rights, then they deserve them.

Of course, humans don't particularly like to give their fellow humans those rights, so sentient zombies would have no chance at all.

[Jikara]

Of course, humans don't particularly like to give their fellow humans those rights, so sentient zombies would have no chance at all.

I dunno. Ever seen a Romero flick? Its normally the humans who have no chance against the unending zombie masses.

[Necroxis]

*Is sad that this thread has turned into that of one-upsmanship. People need to calm down.

[ázul]

If they are able to comprehend the concept for individual rights, then they deserve them.

Of course, humans don't particularly like to give their fellow humans those rights, so sentient zombies would have no chance at all.

then again, undead are very jaded and secretive people who arent even loyal to the horde. I for one think lordaeron has failed as a civilazation and deserve little to no rights to their former lands (excluding undercity) because of their present actions.

Also.. swerto changed the subject to ownership of lordaeron with Gilneas comin' back. they were humans who closed themselves off from the plague/curse LIKE SMART PEOPLE, and for some reason undead are all "Wonder what happens if we throw stuff over this big wall". Freakin furry haters

[Necroxis]

I also find this whole argument about who is the rightful owner or Lordaeron awesome because it's pretty much EXACTLY the same as how the IC npcs argue it.

Carry on.

[Netharius]

Also.. swerto changed the subject to ownership of lordaeron with Gilneas comin' back. they were humans who closed themselves off from the plague/curse LIKE SMART PEOPLE, and for some reason undead are all "Wonder what happens if we throw stuff over this big wall". Freakin furry hatersIt's actually a bit less moronic than that. A bit.

The Forsaken consider themselves to be the kingdom of Lordaeron. After the Second War, Gilneas abandoned the Alliance in favour of seclusion, building the wall and severing all ties. When the Plague hit, it was just further incentive to keep the massive door shut. Refugees crowded around the gates, but with no support from Gilneas, most eventually fell to the plague.

Consider that. Some of the refugees are bound to have become Forsaken, and they would blame their deaths solely on Gilneas' unwillingness to open their damn doors. On top of that, add all the Lordaeronians who still feel bitter about having King Greymane abandon the Alliance, and you've got widespread hatred.

Although I agree that the Forsaken-cursed Lordaeronians are very similar to (and by all rights should be more empathetic towards) the Worgen-cursed Gilneans, apparantly the old hate runs high enough to ruin a potentially fearsome ally.

[ázul]

Dang, no arguments their netharius, hopefully this whole land ownership discussion can stop and we can get back to the spoilers.

[Swerto]

It has nothing to do with whether or not Forsaken deserve rights, It's just that Stormwind deserves none when it comes to Lordaeron. Nobody in that kingdom is still alive other than the few unlucky people still living in Southshore, or the few remaining scarlets that joined the argent crusade.

[Icia]

That's simply not true at all. Many Lordaeron residents fled to Stormwind when Arthas killed the king anyway. Seems like survivors have more legal claim to the land than the deceased, just saying..

But most importantly, if the Alliance is going to be the ones pushing back into old Alliance lands, they have just as much claim to it as the "I hate everyone" Forsaken who wouldn't even really enjoy it anyway. So basically, your faction snoozes, your faction loses!

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

It has nothing to do with whether or not Forsaken deserve rights, It's just that Stormwind deserves none when it comes to Lordaeron. Nobody in that kingdom is still alive other than the few unlucky people still living in Southshore, or the few remaining scarlets that joined the argent crusade.

As someone who lets my character's perspective get the better of me at times, I can see how Swerto would come up with this argument, but the Forsaken also have a lot to answer for. The defilers, a group originally organized by none other than Varimathras continue in their attempts to destroy the Human kingdom of Stromgarde (honestly, what connections to the Scarlets do they possess? If not for their tenacity, it's hard to day that there'd -be- a Lordaeron today). They've dispatched agents to poison the local populace in Ashenvale, only feeding Alliance toward the forsaken. Finally, they seem to be unstable enough, and in a dangerous enough way that it's hard for any other nation to feel safe, so long as the current regime assumes business as usual (Wrathgate anyone? There's a reason after all why Thrall is guarding the Undercity with the Kok'ron.).

The Alliance can't really claim those lands, true, but given the regime's actions so far, they'd be fools not to consider what might happen if they don't take action. In short, the Undercity is Warcraft's Iran. (Only a lot more dangerous)

[Swerto]

Actually the defilers aren't destroying Stormgarde, they are cutting off Alliance supply lines so the Alliance can't build a huge ass fortress right on their doorsteps.

A real world example would be America not wanting the USSR put nukes in Cuba (the cuban missile crisis).

If you want to draw a real world country to the Forsaken draw them to Nazi Germany or the USSR, they are -not- Iran. Nazi Germany would definitely be the best (they revere the leader of their totalitarian government)


When it comes to the land, this isn't native Americans vs American claim on the land, this is the difference between Japan and Canadians claiming Canada.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Actually the defilers aren't destroying Stormgarde, they are cutting off Alliance supply lines so the Alliance can't build a huge ass fortress right on their doorsteps.

A real world example would be America not wanting the USSR put nukes in Cuba (the cuban missile crisis).

The Forsaken have attacked more than just the Arathi Basin, their fingers have been in other parts of Stromgarde as well. I can sort of see the supply lines argument, but the Syndicate, the Ogres, and the Trolls already have that disruption covered. The land isn't even close to being stable enough to be conducive for the sort of logistics the Alliance would need to launch an attack from anywhere north of the Thandol Span.


If you want to draw a real world country to the Forsaken draw them to Nazi Germany or the USSR, they are -not- Iran. Nazi Germany would definitely be the best (they revere the leader of their totalitarian government)

I won't say that they're Nazi Germany for a few reasons.
-First: Godwin's law, because these days if you even mention "Germany, Fascism, World War Two, Moustache, or Nazis", there's always someone who cries "Godwin's Law" without even viewing the argument.
-Second: I made the Iran comparison because Iran's a loose cannon that's about to get a nuclear bomb. North Korea is similar, but they're a bit more stable. Germany was evil, but it wasn't nearly as volatile.


When it comes to the land, this isn't native Americans vs American claim on the land, this is the difference between Japan and Canadians claiming Canada.

I'm not disagreeing, but if Japan thought that Canada could at any moment, rain biological weapons of mass destruction upon their cities, and had reason to do so, Japan would be very concerned.

[Leyujin]

-Second: I made the Iran comparison because Iran's a loose cannon that's about to get a nuclear bomb. North Korea is similar, but they're a bit more stable. Germany was evil, but it wasn't nearly as volatile.

Oh, you mean the Iran which America's been sponsoring terrorist groups like Jundallah to undermine, and who overthrew the Shah creating this whole mess back in 1953? And the Iran which is "about to get a nuclear bomb", despite them being more transparent than Israel regarding their nuclear ambitions, to the IAEA no less, without the necessary equipment to refine their nuclear fuel to anything capable of doing much more than a several kiloton explosion, and no carriage devices to get it anywhere near the U.S., so we can declare war on them and then find out there were no WMDs in this castle, better try the next one?

And North Korea, which is undergoing severe famine and terrible economic situations, with a completely mad "Dear" leader, is MORE STABLE? Wtf are you smoking?

How about you leave real world politics out of this?

------------------------------------

It doesn't matter if the Forsaken have a lot to answer for. You're forgetting there's another entire Horde-aligned faction in the North, the Sin'dorei. The proximity to the Plaguelands of Silvermoon is almost a literal stone's throw. Regardless of the Forsaken's moral standing, Silvermoon would not allow an Alliance force to set up permanent shop so close to its own borders. It's like saying the Horde is capable of putting up a new settlement on some floating turtle between Teldrassil and the Exodar. The logistics of maintaining such a territory is practically absurd. Could the Alliance set up some military encampments in the former Plaguelands, sure. But retaking the territory in the name of Stormwind is impossible, so long as Undercity or Silvermoon retain any amount of military strength. And it would appear Undercity has military power to spare, as it is laying siege to Gilneas.

Game, set, and match.

If you're talking about who has the *right* to the land, then you could argue endlessly dependent upon your value system. I still think the Forsaken have just as much claim to it as any refugees from Lordaeron, perhaps more so.

[Swerto]

I draw the line to Germany instead of Iran because of the way their society works (also if you lack historical knowledge Germany had a huge technological advantage over the others for the first part of the war)

[Ryoku]

It's like saying the Horde is capable of putting up a new settlement on some floating turtle between Teldrassil and the Exodar.

... Fuck yeah.

I can just imagine it.. and it is the most awesome thing Blizzard could ever do ever.

Especially if they call it the Tortress.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Game, set, and match.
Being a tad premature there, hm?


Oh, you mean the Iran which America's been sponsoring terrorist groups like Jundallah to undermine, and who overthrew the Shah creating this whole mess back in 1953? And the Iran which is "about to get a nuclear bomb", despite them being more transparent than Israel regarding their nuclear ambitions, to the IAEA no less, without the necessary equipment to refine their nuclear fuel to anything capable of doing much more than a several kiloton explosion, and no carriage devices to get it anywhere near the U.S., so we can declare war on them and then find out there were no WMDs in this castle, better try the next one?

And North Korea, which is undergoing severe famine and terrible economic situations, with a completely mad "Dear" leader, is MORE STABLE? Wtf are you smoking?

How about you leave real world politics out of this?

No analogy is ever perfect, but the point I'm making is that the Alliance views the Forsaken much the way that the United States views Iran.

Aside from that, I'm not going to argue with you about Iran itself, at least not here.


It doesn't matter if the Forsaken have a lot to answer for. You're forgetting there's another entire Horde-aligned faction in the North, the Sin'dorei. The proximity to the Plaguelands of Silvermoon is almost a literal stone's throw. Regardless of the Forsaken's moral standing, Silvermoon would not allow an Alliance force to set up permanent shop so close to its own borders. It's like saying the Horde is capable of putting up a new settlement on some floating turtle between Teldrassil and the Exodar. The logistics of maintaining such a territory is practically absurd. Could the Alliance set up some military encampments in the former Plaguelands, sure. But retaking the territory in the name of Stormwind is impossible, so long as Undercity or Silvermoon retain any amount of military strength. And it would appear Undercity has military power to spare, as it is laying siege to Gilneas.

Silvermoon doesn't maintain much military strength at the moment, and that's the big problem with that argument. I'm sure you've seen Eversong Woods and the Ghostlands, both are overrun with the scourge, who regularly attack Sin'dorei villiages. They still have a wretched problem as well, and a bunch of Amani trolls sitting at the edge of the Ghostlands.

If you're talking about post-cataclysm, few indicators exist to determine the actual strength of a Sin'dorei military, aside from the knowledge that the Sin'dorei remain a devastated people, probably just having wrested control of their lands. In respect to the Forsaken, an attack on Gilneas means that they have less forces to respond to a sudden Alliance attack in the plaguelands, not more.

Logistically, this would be difficult, but don't forget that both factions have access to large aerial battleships, capable of transporting large armies to wherever they are needed, and access to portals, which is how they were feeding reinforcements directly into that perpetual battle at the Dark Portal. They also managed to get supplies through as well. Failing that though, there is also the possibility for a naval landing, and a takeover of Tyr's hand, carried out by an Allaince navy that only seems to be growing.

[Swerto]

Yes, they both have them. And the horde one has a fucking cannon the size of a titan's testicle on the front of it. The horde ship is much more of an 'anti airship' whereas the alliance airship is an 'anti fucking army'.

Also, with the advent of Cataclysm horde forces will return to their respective homelands. The Forsaken and Eleven forces will be strong again, and with their connection via the portal in undercity/silvermoon they will be able to relay information to eachother without delay. To try and take land between them is to start a two front war that will end in your defeat.

You don't need to be a military genius to understand that being surrounded by enemies is a bad idea.

Also, the alliance has -no- claim to Lordaeron. The same could be argued for Arathi considering Trollbane pulled out of the Alliance when Lordaeron decided they weren't going to slaughter the orcs like cattle once they had them in internment camps, something the Elves almost did and Gilneas did do for different reasons (lol I want alterac because it's on my 'border') Lordaeron as a kingdom fell, but it's people are still there in the form of the Forsaken.

The survivors went one of three ways. South (in which case the ended up in Southshore or along the gate to Gilneas) west with Jaina to Theramore, or they remained in their lands and joined the Scarlet Crusade (in which case they are dead or in the Argent Crusade now). They really don't have claim to the land considering they abandoned it (for the most part) while the Forsaken remained and rebuilt.

Alterac no longer has a kingdom or people to lay claim, the kingdom has been mostly abandoned other than the outlaws that now reside there.

Dalaran is neutral, having pulled themselves from the Alliance after they got it up the ass from the legion.

Kul Tiras, Stormwind, and Theramore are really the only human kingdoms that remain loyal to eachother.

[Imirak]

No analogy is ever perfect, but the point I'm making is that the Alliance views the Forsaken much the way that the United States views Iran.

I got the analogy.

AMG The Forsaken don't use Twitter what a horrible horrible analogy. :cool:

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Yes, they both have them. And the horde one has a fucking cannon the size of a titan's testicle on the front of it. The horde ship is much more of an 'anti airship' whereas the alliance airship is an 'anti fucking army'.

The point is in logistics. If production of more is possible, an aerial barge would be a magnificent boon to any supply chain.


Also, with the advent of Cataclysm horde forces will return to their respective homelands. The Forsaken and Eleven forces will be strong again, and with their connection via the portal in undercity/silvermoon they will be able to relay information to eachother without delay. To try and take land between them is to start a two front war that will end in your defeat.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw the Blood Elves more as agents and advisors than anything else. In the Burning Crusade, they had one settlement (Blood Watch) and that was it, and there was nothing in Wrath. The Draenei are the same way. From what I can tell, there isn't much of an army that's coming home. Also, if the Alliance were to opt for the naval attack and takeover of Tyr's hand, they would have an easily defensible position to deal with both coming from the same direction. The Forsaken would be the ones finding themselves in a two front war, between that and Gilneas.

I would even venture to say that the Alliance may want to consider Tyr's hand only as a forward port to attack Eversong directly, but I'm getting ahead of myself. In the end, there are ways to assert control of at least some parts of the plaguelands without being completely surrounded.

Edit: Edit to Edit?


Also, the alliance has -no- claim to Lordaeron. The same could be argued for Arathi considering Trollbane pulled out of the Alliance when Lordaeron decided they weren't going to slaughter the orcs like cattle once they had them in internment camps, something the Elves almost did and Gilneas did do for different reasons (lol I want alterac because it's on my 'border') Lordaeron as a kingdom fell, but it's people are still there in the form of the Forsaken.

The Alliance doesn't need a claim, they just have to be scared enough to think that the Forsaken might do something. Varian hasn't forgotten the Wrathgate, or what he saw in the Undercity.



Oh, and Imirak, I have confirmed that the Forsaken have just invented Twitter!

[Swerto]

Considering Tyr's hand is Argent (now that the Scarlets are gone), and the Argents are NEUTRAL, that wouldn't happen.

Also, if the Blood Elves don't contribute to the Horde as much as the Forsaken do in the area of forces (considering they got wiped the fuck out by the scourge) they do contribute enough to be avoided when it comes to trying to start a two front battle.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Considering Tyr's hand is Argent (now that the Scarlets are gone), and the Argents are NEUTRAL, that wouldn't happen.

Hm, this I wasn't aware of. I thought that while New Avalon was destroyed, Tyr's Hand itself remained in Scarlet control...

Where are you getting this information?


Also, if the Blood Elves don't contribute to the Horde as much as the Forsaken do in the area of forces (considering they got wiped the fuck out by the scourge) they do contribute enough to be avoided when it comes to trying to start a two front battle.

Honestly, if they gave enough cause for the Alliance to seriously worry about them attacking from behind, I'd attack them first. They're still crippled as a nation, the Alliance might see some High Elven involvement, and if Tyr's hand is neutral as you say, the Alliance wouldn't even need to bother with it.

[Swerto]

My point aleria is that there is no position in the plaguelands for the Alliance to entrench themselves from attack. It is a logistical nightmare to make such a move, it would take forrces unimaginable and it would be far lest costly just to come from the south and move up. The plaguelands aren't really a flank for the Forsaken as much as a heavily defended position via the bulwark (which is much better defended lorewise than it is in game) and the elite Forsaken troops that patrol them (like Swerto, he could totally bladestorm his way through the entire Alliance army)

If anyone other than the Forsaken have a heavy presence in WPL/EPL after cataclysm it will be the Argents, the Alliance may still have a small presence and be trying to restore Andorhal, but even with the scourge all but wiped out in the region they'll still have to fight their way through the Forsaken to do anything, since their only other path into WPL is through the hinterlands or Alterac (both of which have Horde bases nestled neatly along their path, kind of hard to march an army by them)

[Necroxis]

Blue poster responded to a question where someone asked why the Alliance aren't invading Horde territories like they are, and the Blue poster responded saying that isn't a smart thing to assume. He specifically mentioned the Plaguelands, strongly suggesting that the Alliance are going to try and retake Lordaeron.

Also: The Scarlet Crusade, and then Onslaught, are now destroyed, for the most part, but that does not mean because the Argent Dawn/Crusade were an offshoot from the Crusade so long ago, that ownership of the land goes to them.

One more thing, the Forsaken didn't "stick around" in Lordaeron while the Human survivors fled, they weren't even Forsaken yet, they were Scourge.

Arguing over who controls Lordaeron in this thread seems to have hit a stalling point:

a.) Those who argue that it belongs to the Forsaken because the majority of their populace were from Lordaeron

or

b.) Those who are still surviving Lordaeronians (?), have the claim, and have since thrown their support in with Stormwind or the Scarlet Crusade (Who are gone), as well as the fact that the alliance they shared in the First and Second Wars, they, and therefore by extension, the Alliance now too, have claim to it.

There are arguments for and against both sides, and while I favor the latter, the argument is pretty pointless at this stage in the thread because people have become entrenched in their opinion and pretty harshly refuse to change their mind.

It should be interesting, regardless, to see the Alliance's presence back in Lordaeron. Im going to go out on a limb and say that the Worgen and Gilneas will survive, to a point (See Gilneas BG), the Forsaken's attack. So then it'll be the Alliance with Gilneas against the Forsaken and the Blood Elves, who, strangely enough, we have little to no information about any building or extension of land during Cataclysm.

Again, I'm going to just suggest we wait until we know more about Cataclysm before such sweeping statements such as "There is no position in the Plaguelands for the Alliance to entrench themselves" or *insert something Aleria said here*.

Why is this thread such a contest to try and be right? Information is data-mined, or vague (At best), and being so hardheaded does nothing.

[Anthek]

b.) Those who are still surviving Lordaeronians (?), have the claim, and have since thrown their support in with Stormwind or the Scarlet Crusade (Who are gone), as well as the fact that the alliance they shared in the First and Second Wars, they, and therefore by extension, the Alliance now too, have claim to it.

These people are mostly in Theramore, now, though, when Jaina had taken those who would listen to escape the Scourge's early attacks. If they wanted to reclaim Lordaeron, they'd have to abandon the Alliance's only stable and fortified port into mainland Kalimdor, or else it would just be Stormwind occupying the country.

[Lisbet]

THERE - if you want to argue about it - get your own thread ;p

[Broxigan]

I'm pissed.. because it's Lordaeron territory and should be made more FORSAKEN-EY because we took it the hell over.

I could see the Alliance actually taking back Andorhol and it becoming a base of operations for the Alliance in northern Lordaeron. What with the Forsaken having pushed south to Gilneas and Southshore being gone, I would expect that the Alliance would take a chance to try and get a base a bit further north.

Speaking of...I wonder if Hearthglen will be taken back, since the Scarlet should be mostly defeated.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

My point aleria is that there is no position in the plaguelands for the Alliance to entrench themselves from attack. It is a logistical nightmare to make such a move, it would take forrces unimaginable and it would be far lest costly just to come from the south and move up. The plaguelands aren't really a flank for the Forsaken as much as a heavily defended position via the bulwark (which is much better defended lorewise than it is in game) and the elite Forsaken troops that patrol them (like Swerto, he could totally bladestorm his way through the entire Alliance army)

If anyone other than the Forsaken have a heavy presence in WPL/EPL after cataclysm it will be the Argents, the Alliance may still have a small presence and be trying to restore Andorhal, but even with the scourge all but wiped out in the region they'll still have to fight their way through the Forsaken to do anything, since their only other path into WPL is through the hinterlands or Alterac (both of which have Horde bases nestled neatly along their path, kind of hard to march an army by them)

You're speaking of land routes only, however, and that's the problem. Pick any spot on a coast and if it's large enough, the Alliance could set up a landing there. With large airships as well, battle lines can be practically ignored in the movement of armies. Add the fourth dimension of portal travel, and suddenly logistics doesn't become so much of a nightmare. I mentioned Tyr's hand because that can be attacked from the sea, and the infrastructure in New Avalon may be repaired to suit the Alliance's needs. (By the way, there's nothing that says that the argents have taken over Tyr's Hand {http://www.wowwiki.com/Tyr%27s_Hand})

I'll note that I'm not making these arguments to establish generalizations, I'm lodging what I admit is wild speculation. I'm simply asserting that there are viable ways of assault. None of them of course, are easy or cheap. Then again, the Alliance has plenty of reason to incur those costs if they can take Lordaeron.

[Raynell]

Oh god what have I done.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

You've damned us all, Ray. Gratz.

[Swerto]

I stopped posting in this when it was still in the other thread.

[Lysimachus]

It might be interesting to add that the heiress to the throne of Lordaeron is a living human.

Assuming she IS still alive, of course. And that that's how it works in that kingdom (the eldest surviving child becoming king/queen).

[Agnarr]

It might be interesting to add that the heiress to the throne of Lordaeron is a living human.

Assuming she IS still alive, of course. And that that's how it works in that kingdom (the eldest surviving child becoming king/queen).

Arthas had a sister?

[Broxigan]

Yes. Arthas had a sister.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Calia_Menethil

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

If she's still alive, and if she sides with the Alliance, then the business of the rightful claim gets a lot foggier...

[Swerto]

Eh, she doesn't have a kingdom to rule after since the Menethil line was deposed when Arthas betrayed his father.

[Jeedup]

Eh, she doesn't have a kingdom to rule after since the Menethil line was deposed when Arthas betrayed his father.

But, in royal courts, since she is the next in line for the throne of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, she still is the rightful heir.

[Swerto]

There is such thing as abdicating the throne, as well as becoming ineligible. Plus the kingdom no longer exists, just the people and the land.

[Lisbet]

Sorry Swerto - I'll fix the title. It was supposed to be a little joke, because your first post reads "And I'm mad as hell!"

On topic - Calia Menethil lives - possibly in Theremore with brown dyed hair and a husband named Hastings. (http://www.wowwiki.com/Calia_Hastings)

Who better to hide her almost-sister-in-law then Jaina?

I mean hell, she's housing the greatest guardian of all time - Angawyn and Midiv's son, why not the princess of lordaeron too?


Also on topic - as far as Bliz has explained it - the reason Calia was being married off to "Prestor of Arathi" was because Lordaeron politics don't allow women to hold the thrown. Always father to Son - Never daughter. Girls were a dowry to be married off to the biggest land owner.

Thus a possible reason why Jaina isn't ALSO not Queen of Kul'tiras. Her younger brother is (older brother died in the war). Course this could just be because she had her father killed - or because blizzard is lazy.

Ladies of the human world just aren't allowed to be queen. The only reason they're even allowed to be adventurers and mages etc - is because times have changed, and desperate causes for desperate times - all that jaz. I mean - why else are all our human adventurers heroes married off to Elves? Because, they left the human women at home, and high/blood elf men don't exist. (WINK WINK LAWL)

Either that - or Stormwind is more Libral.

Not that, as a solid alliance player, that I don't want Alliance in Northern Lordaeron. If anything, we lose more land then the horde - its a very good idea for us to try and stake a claim and clean out the old plaguelands. Take Anderhol back and clean up Caer Darow. Such prime farm land if the druids and shamans can truly cleanse it!

Anything north of Darowmere lake is elf territory, really. Minus Lights Hope. Plus its so corrupted, that even with out the presence of the scourge and the plague pouring from every tree/mushroom thing and demon hounds - it'd be quite the effort to make it truly livable for civilians again.

[Kredorian]

I think with the Forsaken likely losing some of Silverpine? And gaining SS and more of Hillsbrad, it is interesting to see what will happen with the Plaugelands.

I would love ot see Danath return to Stromgarde, with the city rebuilt, to bring some Alliance badassary to the North... that is DEF where Cav is gonna be living if that does happen... incoming arousal...

As far as the Plaugelands... I would imagine the Forsaken will get a large swath of it, Andorhal could / should become a Forsaken town maybe.... they are the citizens of Lordearon, they are whats left of Lordearon so they should have at least some chunks, esp in the WPL.

EPL imo should maybe be more of a Argent Dawn stronghold, put Tirion back in Tyr's Hand or something, get rid of the Crusade... do something with Stratholme... I think the fire should be out by now, maybe make that some sort of memorial or some nonsense, who knows... but def get rid of the fire.

[Jeedup]

There is such thing as abdicating the throne, as well as becoming ineligible. Plus the kingdom no longer exists, just the people and the land.

You just negated you're whole arguement for the Forsaken having the right to Lordaeron with your last sentence.

The Calia didn't abdicate the throne, from what little lore we have on her, she seems to just have been, out of town, when the majority of the events in WarCraft 3, which still makes her a legitimate heir, even if the kingdom in its 'original' sense, doesn't excist.

And the other Kingdoms that once called the Plaugelands its territory, as well as Stormgarde, were not ruled over by Lordaeron or its King, but were just part of the Lordaeron Alliance. So if anything, the Alliance does have much more a legitimate claim to those lands than anyone. Except Alterac, because Pernholde was a dumbass and didn't think things through to its completion, the Orges should be given that run down crap whole as their 'nations capital', so every year both the Horde and Alliance can get togther in peace for one day, and point and laugh.

[Swerto]

Actually she'd engaged to Prestor, meaning she has no right to the Lordaeron throne any longer.


Daughters get married off to other countries, sons inherit the thrones.


And no other kingdom ruled the plaguelands, that was all Lordaeron. I don't know what map you're looking at but the plaguelands fall directly into Lordaeron and go no further. The 'plaguelands' of Quel'thelas are called the Ghostlands, there are no 'plaguelands' in Stormgarde or Alterac, they both conveniently stop directly at their broders.

[Jeedup]

Actually she'd engaged to Prestor, meaning she has no right to the Lordaeron throne any longer.


Daughters get married off to other countries, sons inherit the thrones.


And no other kingdom ruled the plaguelands, that was all Lordaeron. I don't know what map you're looking at but the plaguelands fall directly into Lordaeron and go no further. The 'plaguelands' of Quel'thelas are called the Ghostlands, there are no 'plaguelands' in Stormgarde or Alterac, they both conveniently stop directly at their broders.

We don't know if the engagement ever went through, and since Deathwing will soon return as his actual self, and Nefarion is dead, then there are no longer any Prestors for her to marry. And, given the recent events in the northern Eastern Kingdoms history, its quite possible people maybe be more open to a 'Queen of Lordaeron', who isn't a rotting horse-sounding Blood Elf, emo-cheerleader.

[Jeedup]

Stormgarde or Alterac, they both conveniently stop directly at their broders.

Correct, I made a fooble there, however, you have mentioned (I think), that the Forsaken have some sort of rightful claim to territory within the Highlands, ie Stormgarde, mostly based off of the Arathi Basin conflict. But since there are several legitimate heirs to that kingdom, such a claim (from the lore stance, not you), would look like overly zealous territorial expansion that even the Horde would frown upon.

[Swerto]

The Alliance, but there are no real citizens left. They are few and scattered and far outnumbered by the people currently living there (the rest of the citizens)

With the lich king's death it is quite possible many more scourge gained free will and are now joining either the Forsaken or Ebon Blade.

[Swerto]

Correct, I made a fooble there, however, you have mentioned (I think), that the Forsaken have some sort of rightful claim to territory within the Highlands, ie Stormgarde, mostly based off of the Arathi Basin conflict. But since there are several legitimate heirs to that kingdom, such a claim (from the lore stance, not you), would look like overly zealous territorial expansion that even the Horde would frown upon.
I meant the Horde did just as much as the Alliance because Trollbane pulled from the Alliance, and the kingdom had fallen so both had claim.

Alterac is just in ruin and there are no people there other than criminals and ogres, so it's just land to fight over.

[Zultingo]

Well then obviously Alterac should become the next great ogre kingdom.
What about the first great ogre kingdom? Well I'd like to kindly direct you to this swinging pocketwatch that agrees with me.

Also, so Calia rolls back up to the land formerly known as Lordaeron, and can do nothing but just stamp her feet and shout "that goddamn no-good, orc-loving brother of mine FUCKED UP THE ENTIRE KINGDOM! This shit's never getting fixed!" and gives up.

[Lailinarel]

Now assuming that Galen is dead, (http://www.wowwiki.com/Galen_Trollbane) do keep in mind that his cousin is in fact Danath Trollbane, one of the most reputable officers in the alliance military, it wouldn't be a stretch to see him crowned should the alliance spend the resources to reclaim Stromgarde.

That said, it's the site of the first human city in wow lore, I can't imagine that the alliance thinks of it as 'just land' to fight over.

P.S.

There is an alliance (small though it might be) military presence in the Arathi Highlands, would be nice to see something happen with it.

IMO give the horde Southshore and level Hammerfall, fortify Thoradin's Wall and open a port behind Stromgarde, keeping supply lines to our new allies in Gilneas intact. Militarily, that would give the Alliance a strong hold on the majority of the central Eastern Kingdoms.

Edit: Yeah, I'm changing the damn subject. :P

[Swerto]

Horde isn't takming southshore, it's getting wtf pwnt by the cataclysm. I'm sure the Alliance will build a new city in hillsbrad.

[Skallagar]

Can someone explain to me why the Forsaken even need more land?

[Swerto]

It's not more land, it's our land to begin with. Forsaken just want what is theirs.

As far as expanding into other territories, they of course want more power like every other kingdom in existance anywhere on Azeroth or even in the real world, so expansion is innevitable.

[Skallagar]

Well, no, the land was not theirs when the Scourge ran it. I don't study the lore much, but I'd always thought the Forsaken weren't involved in
necromacy, so it's not like they're gunna have a baby boomer generation after the fall of Arthas, so the lands they control ought to be sufficient, unless they chopped down all the trees in their heavily forrested lands to make plague barrels and their launchers.

I could go on about this, but the bottom line is a people like the forsaken, who aren't likely to grow in size and don't even need food seem low on the totem pole of people who need more territory.

[Swerto]

They have necromancers, and on top of that they get new recruits every time the scourge loses strength (as in the lich king loses strength and his minions gain free will).

Not only do they gain recruits from people who break off the scourge and join the Forsaken (pretty much what every Forrsaken is, a rebellious former member of the Scourge).

The land is theirs, the Scourge has just been squatting and they've been fighting for it for years (and they have a presence there).

[Ackley]

I completely ignored the 1st post and all arguments. soooooooooooooo!

Western plaguelands = Forsaken

Eastern I think should be cleansed since the argent dawn have been their enmasse for FUCKING EVER! Light's hope needs to get shit done.

[Swerto]

Actually, Western Plagueland is the one place I can see the Alliance running in to claim because they have two entrances (through Alterac and Hinterlands) and could easily entrench themselves within the city of Andorhal.

Eastern Plaguelands is the only spot in northern lordaeron with a port, however. It would be of high interest to the Forsaken (I bet they'll try to claim the ruins of the Scarlet Enclave for their own and shoo the Ebon Blade elsewhere)

[Dahnek]

They have necromancers, and on top of that they get new recruits every time the scourge loses strength (as in the lich king loses strength and his minions gain free will).

Not only do they gain recruits from people who break off the scourge and join the Forsaken (pretty much what every Forrsaken is, a rebellious former member of the Scourge).

The land is theirs, the Scourge has just been squatting and they've been fighting for it for years (and they have a presence there).

The necromancers are a recent addition that Sylvanas is trying in a limited way. Furthermore Scourge breaking off from the collective is a rare thing, and there is nothing set in stone in regards to them joining the Forsaken. The Ebon Blade is a great example being the second largest migration since Sylvanas took her chunk.

Tell me why, if a few Scourge through wtf-power left the collective they'd join the Forsaken? They would have no allegiance to Sylvanas and honestly that is the only reason to be part of that group now. The Forsaken as a whole bow to her because she liberated them, which is not an everyday thing.

As for the whole squatting thing...wow.


Lordaeron was part of a human alliance. If you do not think that Alliance will now return to take that land now that it shall be hospitable, you are insane. Furthermore as the surviving Lordaeron populace, which probably included small branches of royalty and government, sought refuge in SW territories gives them an edge. Not that it is needed. Living > Dead


Bottom line is that noone wants the Forsaken to get Lordaeron, and that will prevent it from happening. Garrosh doesn't trust the shambling dead as far as he can throw them following Wrathgate, and being as Sylvanas' power has dwindled while Garrosh's will solidify I say it's a fair assumption they should be happy they are being allowed to keep what territories they have under living supervision.

[Swerto]

If you think for one second Garrosh will let the Alliance step one foot near HORDE territory without retlaiation...


hah...


I'm pretty sure garrosh would dedicate an airship to the area just to stop it from happening.



Also necromancers were 'recent additions' In vanilla WoW, they've been around three years at this point.

As I've stated many times scourge will break off the hive mind because the lich king DIED, he will lose control of the strongest who stilll remain, Bolvar will only have hold of a fraction. Those that break off will be faced with three choices: make their own faction, join the forsaken, or join the ebon blade. The Forsaken is the strongest of the three and they also happen to be where most the free people's former countrymen are found, it is highly likely they will move to join them.

[Dahnek]

Oh I agree that Garrosh will fight tooth and nail to keep the Alliance out. However there is no way in hell he'll allow the Forsaken to have the land. He doesn't even trust them enough to run Undercity without supervision; hence the Orc presence there now.





As I've stated many times scourge will break off the hive mind because the lich king DIED, he will lose control of the strongest who stilll remain, Bolvar will only have hold of a fraction.


You read this? Assuming it? Ah.

There is a reason everyone kept ranting "there must always be a Lich King". The standard Scourge outside the collective is akin to mad dogs. The Forsaken are an exception, not a rule - liberated and given the free will to enjoy it. Any Scourge that did break off when the Helm's power waned were the strongest, just like you said. Death Knights, necromancers and liches. Not the fucking zombies. They will also more then likely have their own agendas before joining someone elses willingly.

[Swerto]

Trust has nothing to do with it. The orcs only supervise undercity... not run it. The Forsaken still run their territory and they will run any territory they move in to.

Exept that the entire Forsaken faction is made up of those 'zombies'.

And all that happened last time for them to gain their free will was a crack in a sheet of ice that let the Lich King's power wane. When arthas died all control was lost.

[Dahnek]

There was more at play then a "crack in the ice", and comparing Ner'Zhuls power with the Arthas Lich King is laughable. The Scourge under Arthas was a redefined beast entirely.

And call it "supervision" if that makes you feel better about occupation. Fact is everyone knew Sylvanas wanted vengeance against the Lich King first and foremost. Now that he is gone, don't you think her allies of conveniance are looking at her with bated breath? Garrosh moving soldiers into Undercity was a preemptive strike using precedence as a reason. The Forsaken have proven untrustworthy and dangerous to the living, and Garrosh will bring them in line or to heel.

[Swerto]

Thrall put the Korkron in Undercity, not Garrosh.

Garrosh only has control of the Warsong Offensive (the Horde troops in Northrend) he has no control of anything back in the Eastern Kingdoms or Kalimdor.

And no one, I mean no one, will ever bring the forsaken 'in line.' Attempts would soon find the Horde a new enemy and the loss of their strongest ally in the Eastern Kingdoms.

The Korkron's presence is siimply to ensure that the wrathgate does not occur again, a betrayal from within the Forsaken, a betrayal to the Queen as well as the Horde.

[Necroxis]

Thrall put the Korkron in Undercity, not Garrosh.

Garrosh only has control of the Warsong Offensive (the Horde troops in Northrend) he has no control of anything back in the Eastern Kingdoms or Kalimdor.

And no one, I mean no one, will ever bring the forsaken 'in line.' Attempts would soon find the Horde a new enemy and the loss of their strongest ally in the Eastern Kingdoms.

The Korkron's presence is siimply to ensure that the wrathgate does not occur again, a betrayal from within the Forsaken, a betrayal to the Queen as well as the Horde.

Sylvanas knew of the RAS and their plague and what it did, she was just pissed they acted too soon. So she played the ignorant. See: Arthas: Rise of the Lich King.

Regarding Lordaeron: Now would be a perfect time to implement Calia into WoW. She's very much alive: See Horde Player's Guide, A Paladin infiltrates UC to free some of the RAS' prisoners, and is spotted by a Forsaken Priest. They work together after the Priest says he'll help the Pally if he helps set free some Forsaken from the Argent Dawn. As the Paladin distracts the guards, the Priest frees some of the Prisoners, bows to one of the females, and says something to the effect of: "Hello, my Princess"

A few notes regarding Lisbet's post on page 3: The reason Jaina didn't take over the Kul-Tiras, aside from having already formed Theramore, is that leadership fell to her older brother, Tandred. Tandred Proudmoore (http://www.wowwiki.com/Tandred_Proudmoore).

Aegwynn is also unfortunately dead after sacrificing herself for her Mary Sue grandson Med'an.

Also: There's nothing saying that females cannot be Queens in WoW. There just aren't any at the moment, and while I'm tending to agree that they probably won't allow queens to come to power based on blood, I think they should at least try to argue it.

Let's see the High Elves (In a bigger force) and Calia return and be like "Yo...Lordaeron/Quel'Thelas is ours, here we come."

Still a grey area, both sides hold some claim, and both sides feel the other don't. Is there an issue with just agreeing that both sides have some claim?

[Dahnek]

If you don't think Garrosh had a say in the UC occupation I think you're being naive. Think long term and who will be running the ship. We know Garrosh will be taking charge, and things like that don't happen overnight.


I understand you play Forsaken. /cheer for you. If you think for a moment that either faction will allow the Forsaken to increase the size of their territory you are not looking at this clearly.


Besides, they can't even consolidate control on Silverpine and that is a lowbie zone. ;)

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Besides, they can't even consolidate control on Silverpine and that is a lowbie zone. ;)

That sort of applies to everyone though, doesn't it?

[Dahnek]

Must be all the gnolls and bears in the area. Pesky bears..

[Swerto]

Sylvanas knew of the RAS and their plague and what it did, she was just pissed they acted too soon. So she played the ignorant. See: Arthas: Rise of the Lich King.

No shit, welcome to 5 years ago when WoW first came out. We have known since day one the Forsaken are treacherous bastards, not arguing this. I don't even remember bringing that point up, but wrathgate wasn't Sylvanas's doing or the doing of any Forsaken who still live, they were dealt with for their treachery because they betrayed the queen on top of the Horde.


It doesn't matter if Calia is alive because it's not her throne, it was her Father's and her brother's. Never has the throne in Azeroth gone to a female heir. Daughters are to be sent off to foreign kingdoms as brides for various nobles.

[Chikt]

Besides, they can't even consolidate control on Silverpine and that is a lowbie zone. ;)

The Blood Elves have also done a good job of containing all the wild cats, freaky bird things, cyberers, walking trees and undead wandering around in Eversong.

[Swerto]

The Blood Elves have also done a good job of containing all the wild cats, freaky bird things, cyberers, walking trees and undead wandering around in Eversong.
Those Tauren still haven't beat away all those pesky goblins in mulgore.

[Chikt]

Those Tauren still haven't beat away all those pesky goblins in mulgore.

Not to mention the quilboar, which Durotar also suffers from.

[Swerto]

Not to mention the quilboar, which Durotar also suffers from.
Those humans have yet to deal will Hogger.

[Chikt]

Those humans have yet to deal will Hogger.

And the Night Elves still have a rotten, evil tree.

[Swerto]

Stagnant MMO worlds are so horrible.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

And the Night Elves still have a rotten, evil tree.

One of the many reasons Aleria no longer visits Kalimdor....

[Necroxis]

It doesn't matter if Calia is alive because it's not her throne, it was her Father's and her brother's. Never has the throne in Azeroth gone to a female heir. Daughters are to be sent off to foreign kingdoms as brides for various nobles.

I'm going to just emulate Dahnek. We're arguing the same points over and over for both sides. You play a Forsaken, good stuff, the points you're arguing are the ones they did.

This thread is pointless when people are just stone-faced and not open to changing opinions.

As to the Calia thing: Where's the precedence that you are basing that off of? Just because it hasn't happened yet in WoW's lore doesn't mean they DONT do it.

The situation just hasn't presented itself with those exact parameters until now. (inb4rlreferences). *leaves thread*

[Swerto]

I understand what humans have claim to Lordaeron, but I believe the majority of the people have more claim than the minority. Stormwind has no claim because it's not their land.

[Chikt]

Stagnant MMO worlds are so horrible.

One of the things I loved the most about The Matrix Online was that it was an alive world. GM's played the roles of major characters and you could actually RP with them, or see them running around in the world completing missions. The world story was active, totally changing. And if you completed a mission that added to lore, you went down in history as having completed that mission.

The problem with THAT was that unless you got lucky, had a powerful guild at your back, or were constantly playing - you would miss out on those events.

Imagine this. Ragefire Chasm was only ever completed by one group. When Thrall was killed by a raid, he was dead forever. Only one person ever got their hands on the Hand of Ragnaros. But to offset all this one-man-only self-important bullshit, Ghostcrawler would log onto Thrall and go out into the world to RP with everybody about the latest Horde raid on Stormwind.

The issue with the MxO model is the fact that it put specific guilds or specific people on top, made them the heroes of everything, and everybody else was left doing those "kill 20 boars" quests. I love the MxO model for RP, but for gameplay, the WoW model shits all over it.

[Swerto]

Oh, I understand that completely. And I'm fine with the WoW gameplay model, but oh lord is it annoying from an RP perspective.

[Chikt]

Oh, I understand that completely. And I'm fine with the WoW gameplay model, but oh lord is it annoying from an RP perspective.

Of course. I just don't think the alternative is all that great, either.

[Jeedup]

I understand what humans have claim to Lordaeron, but I believe the majority of the people have more claim than the minority. Stormwind has no claim because it's not their land.

You also have to consider that we don't have much in terms of any reliable information of how many people actually managed to escape the Scourge when it was set upon Lordaeron, how many people were immune from the plauges, how many people just weren't in town, or in other cities and managed to get a fair warning, ect ect.

Now, several years AFTER that incident, sure, they may be considered a minority, but they could have started families, which just increase their amount.

Now you also need to consider, how many Forsaken would be willing to return to a 'normal' Lordaeron rule. One of the insteresting things I always loved about Forsaken lore is, not only do they have an 'evil' pride in having become what they are, but some, or even with an underlining subtle tone, are still fiercely loyal to their 'human' roots. So it wouldn't be TOO surprising to see a few want to return to a kingdom like that. The only major issue, and its fairly major, is would they be accepted or not.

[Sörröw]

I think we should continue to debate areas that won't change. It's good practice for when we go to War with Europe and need to divide and conquer. Go Canada!!

In other news, I agree with Dio.. I like saying this.

P.S. The murlocs.

[Skallagar]

It's all pretty irrelevant anyway. Horde will probably back the Forsaken because better their allies have the land than the humans (Though if the Blood Elf activities in eversong and silvermoon are taken into account, maybe they should get them to facilitate the huge population growth they'll be having. Unless contraceptives exist.), while the Alliance will back the humans because..."We're humans, bro! We're good and stuff!".

[Geofforan]

Lordaeron belongs to the Amani.

/argument

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Aw jeeze. What will happen to Stromgarde?!

[Swerto]

Lordaeron belongs to the Amani.

/argument


No, Ghostlands and Eversong do.

We should boot those elves out of the Horde, cast rez on Zul'jin and go kick some ass.

[Wobblebonk]

No, Ghostlands and Eversong do.

It took the help of Arathor for the high elves to invade the Amani Empire and confine the trolls to the vicinity of Zul'Aman; before that they had everything down past the Hinterlands to Arathi and west across the current plaguelands. Lordaeron took advantage of the shrinking empire to expand its borders all the way to the east coast of the Eastern Kingdoms.

[Netharius]

Let's see the High Elves (In a bigger force) and Calia return and be like "Yo...Lordaeron/Quel'Thelas is ours, here we come."I don't know how any Alliance player has faith in High Elf (outside of the Dalaran faction, anyways) motives after Blizzard canonized this story's (http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/writing/#winner)lore. Basically, they're stubborn bastards who are living exiled from Quel'thalas because they want to be.

TL;DR:

Lor'themar: Hai gaiz, we kild kaelthas, got sunwell bak. rly srry for bein douches an stuf. plz coem bak? plzzzzzzzz?
Hawkspear: Still angry about Kael'thas.
Lor'themar: but we kild him-
Hawkspear: Still angry.
Lor'themar: but tha sunwel-
Hawkspear: Still angry.
Lor'themar hangs his head dejectedly and leaves.Even after Lor'themar travels to the Plaguelands to visit them unarmed, apologising profusely for obeying Kael'thas until they were betrayed, offering aid or a return to Silvermoon, the High Elves spit in his face.

[Wobblebonk]

Even after Lor'themar travels to the Plaguelands to visit them alone (yes, without guards), apologising profusely for obeying Kael'thas until they were betrayed, offering aid or a return to Silvermoon, the High Elves spit in his face.

The High Elves refuse to betray their staunchest allies in an hour of need. Lor'themar should really be petitioning Varian to once again recognize Quel'thalas as a member of the Alliance instead of insulting the honor of the remaining high elves.

[Necroxis]

Yeah High Elves are kind of assholes, but I mean I can at least TRY to see it from their point of view.

Blood Elves are only buddy buddy after reigniting the Sunwell, but when it was all exploded and they had to fend for themselves, they sunk down so low that some of them sucked demonic energy to sate their addiction. The others didn't get that far, but were close.

Not saying they're in the right, but I can understand their hatred.

The remaining High Elves fought the addiction, mastered it.

The Blood Elves fell to it, submitted. And now, when Sylvanas demands their support, and Scourge still pound on their doorstep, they decide they want to offer the High Elves a place back with them? I started out my comment thinking: "I don't necessarily agree with the High Elves, but I can appreciate their point" but after thinking about it all, I definitely agree with them when they gave a big middle finger to the Blood Elves when they came asking for help.

I'd still like to see their presence more in the Alliance now that we can see they're becoming stronger once more. WTB Silver Covenant being all like "Time to help Alliance again." At least have Turaylon come back and him and Aleria kick some ass, plz.

[Zultingo]

Azeroth belongs to the trolls.

/argument

I expanded on your statement to include all aspects of it's truth for ya.

[Skaadvik]

Skaadvik deserves Northern Lordearon.

[Swerto]

Skaadvik is drunk

[Dahnek]

I think we should continue to debate areas that won't change. It's good practice for when we go to War with Europe and need to divide and conquer. Go Canada!!


These areas are changing. Hence why we are debating it. Thanks for stopping by.


Here's a thought: Cenarion Circle heals the land and claims it as a wildlife habitat and a standing example of life overcoming decay. Druids hop out of stealth and beat the fuck out of any zombies who cross into the territory.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

That would explain the presence of that those two Cenarion Circle druids at Lights Hope. It would seem like a well thought idea, if the land weren't dead, and permeated with the plague. When Malfurion healed Krasus, it killed the land around them for a short distance, and the energy to heal was taken willingly. It would take decades to rid the earth of the taint that lies deeply embedded in the soil of Lordaeron.

IMO, the Horde Resettlement Agency should get Lordaeron to use as a training grounds for future agents, and any/all freshmeat who join the guild. What better training than to loose them into a zombie ravaged land with nothing but food or water for a few days? It's a teaching method. :p

[Chikt]

Isn't it the Western Plaguelands changing though? That's what I was thinking. Unless it's the Plaguelands as a whole. They'd need to change the newly built Death Knight starting zone if that were the case, too.

[Urivial]

I thought that zone was phased... so would they really need to change it if they changed the Plaguelands?

[Chikt]

I thought that zone was phased... so would they really need to change it if they changed the Plaguelands?

Yes. Because otherwise DK's are going to experience plaguelands, plaguelands, plaguelands, spontaneously pretty plauge-free lands.

The way the phasing works out there is that it's... iterative. Quests evolve in sequences which change the zone. So it's actually several different phased states, rather than just the one or two - each one changing. Which means once a Death Knight leaves the final phased state into the actual "real" zone, it would be however Blizzard made it at the time - which, arguably, would be un-plagued.

I suspect that areas of the Eastern Plaguelands will remain plagued, honestly. Particularly around the DK zone. I mean, there is still going to be a giant floating citadel of death in there - it's likely that it will still have some effect on it's surroundings.

[Urivial]

Forgive me if I'm incorrect again then, but I thought the Death Knight starting area actually took place years before this, as in, it was in the past. If so I can see the Death Knights lvling in a Plaguey enviroment, finishing lvling and then finding out that in the now The Plaguelands aren't... the plague lands?

[Chikt]

Forgive me if I'm incorrect again then, but I thought the Death Knight starting area actually took place years before this, as in, it was in the past. If so I can see the Death Knights lvling in a Plaguey enviroment, finishing lvling and then finding out that in the now The Plaguelands aren't... the plague lands?

I doubt Blizzard wants that. After all, how are they going to explain all the Goblin and Worgen Death Knights running about that are apparently from the past?

[Urivial]

I kinda hoped they'd not let Goblins and Worgen become Dks... but that prolly won't be happening...

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Wouldn't it technically be impossible for a Worgen to become a death knight, being that the Greymane wall was built to keep everything, including Arthas, out? >_ >

[Raziel]

Since Varimathras' death, the Horde has taken control of Lordaeron and it's pretty much near martial law there. Between the Undercity and Quel'thelas, it's pretty much the Argent Dawn/Ebon Blade having the most presence in the Eastern Plaguelands.

[Chikt]

Wouldn't it technically be impossible for a Worgen to become a death knight, being that the Greymane wall was built to keep everything, including Arthas, out? >_ >

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.wow.com/media/2009/08/580_raceclassmatrix_en_us.jpg

It's already official.

Given what happens with the Lich King (NO SPOILERS) it doesn't surprise me that there are undead still running about and Death Knights still being created or awoken somehow.

I'm sure there will be a reason, some way to explain it. They'll need to change the DK starting area anyway to keep up with the lore.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Ugh Blizzard. Ignoring the simplest of lore. Yippee.

[Cyrass]

Wouldn't it technically be impossible for a Worgen to become a death knight, being that the Greymane wall was built to keep everything, including Arthas, out? >_ >

Pyrewood Village and Wolfcult. However, given that the player is a Gilnean Worgen, yes, it would have been impossible unless they went around the Greymane Wall (And when the lands outside are full of asshole moochers and zombies, would you really WANT to get around the wall?)

I have a feeling that, like everything else, the Death Knight starting zone/starting quests will be revamped to reflect what's going on with the DKs and Ebon Blade now that the Lich King is dead.

[Urivial]

Im thinking they'll either HAVE to restrict the class/race thing or they'll have to retcon something :( I hate retcons :(

[Cyrass]

Im thinking they'll either HAVE to restrict the class/race thing or they'll have to retcon something :( I hate retcons :(

Or, you know, progress the story line.

[Keraph]

I skirted through the thread due to a vested interest in the topic, and I have the following to say:

Everything north of the Thandol Span and south of the Ghostlands, including Gilneas and Tol Barad, Stromgarde, and any other holdings that the Alliance think belong to them, are Forsaken territory. You are welcome to disagree, and even try to oppose, but you are wrong, and you will lose. I promise and swear this to you. If you have any problems with this, you are free to take it up with myself, the rest of Infection, and any loyal Forsaken allies. We will alleviate you of this concern, along with all others you may posses. And the ability to possess concerns.

TL;DR: Bitches, I'll kill you.

[Swerto]

TL;DR: Bitches, I'll kill you.
Pretty much this.

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Everything north of the Thandol Span and south of the Ghostlands, including Gilneas and Tol Barad, Stromgarde, and any other holdings that the Alliance think belong to them, are Forsaken territory. You are welcome to disagree, and even try to oppose, but you are wrong, and you will lose. I promise and swear this to you. If you have any problems with this, you are free to take it up with myself, the rest of Infection, and any loyal Forsaken allies. We will alleviate you of this concern, along with all others you may posses. And the ability to possess concerns.


I'm sure the Horde Resettlement Agents would disagree with this statement, and be completely willing to discuss it with you at a later date in time. :p

[Keraph]

I look foward to future...discussions...with your organization. I recommend you spend some quality time with your friends and loved ones beforehand, however. Leave them with good memories of your time in the world of the living >:3

[Dahnek]

Forsaken won't be able to claim anything once Garrosh is holding the leash and tightens it. Fact is I'm dying to see what happens when they realize they painted themselves into a corner and their lands become occupied by greenskins. Don't think about expansion. Think about keeping what little you have.



However if you are insistant about looking to the Alliance for trouble, if I was Varian I'd have SI:7 backed by Stormwind Assassins tamp global charges to the foundations of Undercity, rig the corridors with firebombs and reduce the entire place to rubble. Never have I seen a place that screams "avoid the trench warfare and just shell me with cannon-armed zepplins".

[Swerto]

You TRULY underestimate the Forsaken if you think for a second they would bow down to the Horde and become their bitch, the only reason the Queen has even let the Korkron into the Undercity is because she still feels she has need for the Horde and doesn't want to lose that partnership. If any attempt to take control from her occorued, the Horde would suddenly find itself an enemy more dangerous than the scourge ever was.

[Dahnek]

See now you are being just wishful and again making things up to make yourself feel better. Not only do the Forsaken pale in comparison to the Scourge in terms of number and power, but they would not have a chance against if the Orcs, Trolls, Blood Elves, Goblins and Tauren were to all turn their collective withering gaze to them. Seriously.

Not only that but I'm pretty sure the only thing that keeps Alliance-side operations like what I mentioned from happening is the threat of the combined might of the Horde coming down on their heads in retaliation. Without the umbrella, the Forsaken will drown in the deluge.

I understand faction pride (well...not really. Dahnek was a former Scourge more then a Blood Elf <.<) but be serious; now that the general angst of the Forsaken is known following Wrathgate, they are stuck between the rock and a hard place. No new lands for joo.

[Swerto]

You truly underestimate the Forsaken if you think all conflicts are won on the battlefield.

[Wobblebonk]

You truly underestimate the Forsaken if you think all conflicts are won on the battlefield.

Oh no, I would never think the Forsaken were capable of winning much of anything. How many orc guards are in your city now?

[Urivial]

He has a point...

[Dahnek]

The Forsaken had their hand tipped hard at Wrathgate. The only chance they'd have against the other races in both factions is a bushwhack, and now they are being watched for exactly that.

[Zultingo]

sometimes, not often, but sometimes, I'm really glad wobble's around.
Swerto has done nothing in this thread but make everybody think less and less of forsaken.

[-Teleara-]

Canada.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

While I don't think his argument holds much merit, I can see where Swerto is coming from. My character is a night elf, therefore I am outraged at the Warsong Clan. Swerto's character is a Forsaken, therefore, he thinks like a Forsaken. It doesn't always work, but in this case I think it does. Swerto's arguments are driven not by a removed logic, but an involved interest. In mind he is a Forsaken.

[Netharius]

Although I doubt the Forsaken could stand up very long against the rest of the Horde, it is important to note that they are probably the second most powerful race in that faction. It'd be similar to the Dwarves turning against the Alliance, and just as the Gnomes would join them, the Blood Elves would (yet again) be blackmailed into something similar.

[Swerto]

Also the Forsaken have done more for the Blood Elves than the rest of the horde combined (like getting them in the horde, retaking ghostland and helping them clear out the scourge from their lands)

[Dahnek]

Very true. However the Blood Elves know what side their bread is buttered on, and with them embracing the Light as they have they would not go against all the rest of their allies and their beliefs to partner up with the Shadow.

[Swerto]

Except the rest of the horde has nothing to do with the light... (Tauren priest/paladins are 'sun druids')

[Dahnek]

Better to side with those who have no opinion then those who worship the antihesis. I mean seriously.

[Swerto]

And not all elves worship the light again, I still see a shit ton of warlocks running around, and magisters still have the power.

[Wobblebonk]

Swerto, if you're going to write so much argumentative drivel, at least shrink your signature so I can scroll past your posts faster.

[Swerto]

Up your resolution, add me to ignore, or quit your bitching.

[Sörröw]

These areas are changing. Hence why we are debating it. Thanks for stopping by.

Let me rephrase. While I like Lore discussions as much as the next.

These areas are not changing based on what is said in this thread :)

However, I'll still continue to visit to see how many think Blizzard is keeping an eye here so they get it right :p

[Netharius]

If people would stop criticising each other (and I don't just mean Swerto, so don't bother replying to this from your high horse) and actually respond or ignore points made by others, this thread might not be balancing on the infinitly-deep pit of being Locked.

With that said, this topic can go somewhere. Rather than arguing one side against another repeatedly, make an effort to take the discussion in new directions.

With the plague gone, what will become of Stratholme? I see lots of mentions of Andorhal as a possible rallying point, but Stratholme is a hollowed-out city. Assuming the stone protection was not irrepairably damaged after the fires, would it be of any use?

[Swerto]

Stratholme is actually a very important city to humans, it was THE holy city.

When I was doing my whole "Scarlet Templars' thing in Stormwind with Auverus and Cenco I used to scream that a crusade must be started to retake Stratholme, I giggle at the thought of Blizzard actually doing such a thing.

[Philaris]

I remember reading once that the Horde is split up into two inner factions, or something like that. While all fight under the same banner the two sides fight for very different goals. They would be the Orcish Horde ((made of the Orcs, trolls and Tauren)) and the Horde of the Eastern Kingdom, ((The Forsaken and the Blood Elves who share strong ties to the forsaken because of the Banshee Queen, the peoples similar fates at the hand of Arthas, and the help they recieved from them. This group would Also include the Grimtotem Tauren)) Soooo if some sort of Infighting did happen it wouldnt be hard to see the Blood Elves siding with the Forsaken.

ALSO, while I certainly dont doubt that the Orcs are in undercity cause the Forsaken fucked up, I think there is an NPC somewhere that says they are there to help protect the city because most of the city's forces are fighting in Northrend.

[Dahnek]

With the plague gone, what will become of Stratholme? I see lots of mentions of Andorhal as a possible rallying point, but Stratholme is a hollowed-out city. Assuming the stone protection was not irrepairably damaged after the fires, would it be of any use?


The fires have burned since forever. I doubt the city has any natural defenses left. That is a good question though, since beautiful old Strat was kinda left a loophole in the plot(Baron in two places, the Scarlet Crusaders still holing up inside).


ALSO, while I certainly dont doubt that the Orcs are in undercity cause the Forsaken fucked up, I think there is an NPC somewhere that says they are there to help protect the city because most of the city's forces are fighting in Northrend.

Nein. The Kor'Kron say something about Wrathgate and how history will not repeat itself.

[Keraph]

They don't trust us, no doubt. And they have the power to intervene should we work outside of our now stricter boundaries of service. But there are ways to circumvent everything, and as my esteemed if not hotheaded comrade has said, not all conflicts are won on the battlefield.

Think what you will of the current situation in our city. We've our own plans, and they hardly depend on the opinions of outsiders :3

[Agnarr]

And you know, what with our alliance with the Grimtotem...

Undead, Tauren, and Blood Elves vs. Orc and Trolls? Thrall was always too goody-goody for the trolls, anyway. Hell, he made them stop cannibalizing!

Hear that, trolls? Side with the Forsaken and eat all you want!

[Anthek]

And you know, what with our alliance with the Grimtotem...

Undead, Tauren, and Blood Elves vs. Orc and Trolls? Thrall was always too goody-goody for the trolls, anyway. Hell, he made them stop cannibalizing!

Hear that, trolls? Side with the Forsaken and eat all you want!

You're deluding yourself if you think that all the tauren outside of one tribe, who are notorious murderers and traitors, and not in the majority, would support the Forsaken.

[Lysimachus]

an NPC somewhere that says they are there to help protect the city because most of the city's forces are fighting in Northrend.

I think they only say that if your character hasn't completed the canonical Wrathgate event.

[Swerto]

I think they only say that if your character hasn't completed the canonical Wrathgate event.
^ this.

[Zultingo]

And you know, what with our alliance with the Grimtotem...

Undead, Tauren, and Blood Elves vs. Orc and Trolls? Thrall was always too goody-goody for the trolls, anyway. Hell, he made them stop cannibalizing!

Hear that, trolls? Side with the Forsaken and eat all you want!

You gonna give us our Amani empire back? No? That's right you think you deserve it.
Well, Thrall might not be giving us anything back, but there's also no REAL former troll empire in Kalimdor, so it's not like he's keeping us from having it....or believes that he has some right to it over us.
I'd even settle for just having Arathi, Hinterlands and Quel'Thalas, but noooooooooo, everybody's gotta think that the elves and forsaken belong there.
Goddamn ungrateful descendants.

[Abric]

The amount of "we" and "us" being thrown around is a little ... creepy. Like, basement virgin creepy.

Hopefully they will recreate these zones to be something they wanted Grizzly Hills to be, but it never truly was. It would be nice to have a nice mix of objective-based and outside of an instance PvP fight that could erupt at any moment... with a "realistic" reason behind it. i.e. not just about "I gots the trees" and more about "I own this, and will fight for it".

[Dahnek]

Blizz didn't fuck Grizzly Hills, players did. I daresay besides Dun Niffelem Grizzly Hills was the best attempt Blizz had at recreating the magic of IQD. By that I don't mean stupid world pvp dailies so much as a ton of dailies in one spot to maximise organic world pvp.

[Abric]

Yeah, I can agree with that. Though, Blizzard did not do enough incentive to make Grizzly Hills what they wanted... or what the players needed. They have the possibility of doing that with the old lands of Lordaeron.

I mean, why give it to a specific faction? You could have them fight over it, much like Wintergrasp ... where there is a tangible benefit OF fighting for it - which gives people that incentive to spend their time going there over other places. Mix in a few quests (be it daily, weekly, or one-time only) and you have yourself a zone!

Since we're all talking maybes/could bes/should bes ... personally I think mixing it up a bit with the success of their other zones could prove something really beneficial here. You could let the player base, by server, really decide on who is holding Lordaeron (the land itself, not so much the old city of Lordaeron). Make it permanent or make it temporary, the Horde and Alliance both have a valued stake in these lands. Throw in the mix the neutral aspect of the Argent Crusade, with NPC bad guys in the form of the remnants of the Scourge and Scarlet Onslaught ... and you have good times that can hardly ever end!

Who do I think deserves it? We do ... to fight for it ... and give us the feeling of a more changeable world in our MMO experience.

[Dahnek]

Real World PvP doesn't need shitty incentive. Fuck WG and fuck "pvp dailies".

I say set up a new quest hubs in the eastern and western plaguelands. Make them offer TONS of gold and make it a no fly zone. Between the greedy, ambitious and murderous, you have the REAL melting pot. The closest thing to Blackrock Mountain in vanilla. The next-best thing to IQD in BC. Real, organic world PvP.

[Swerto]

I'm okay with fighting for it, because I already do that on a daily basis (you know those pings in chillwind? Yeah that's me)



no fly zone
Won't happen.

We'll be lucky for it to happen anywhere outside of cap cities.

Which is fine as long as they add in a way to dismount cowards who like to fly away... or up the mount time on flying mounts to 5 seconds. (only in Azeroth)

[Dahnek]

Which is fine as long as they add in a way to dismount cowards who like to fly away... or up the mount time on flying mounts to 5 seconds. (only in Azeroth)


They won't. Hence why I dream, and why I don't play anymore.

[Kained]

Northrend is kained loot.

[Dahnek]

No
Edit: stupid 5 letter requirement

[Arialene]

^ this.

RAZHIJACK:

Incorrect.

Go to the Apothecarium and read Kraggosh's discussion with Faranel.

The Kor'Kron are indeed staying there and watching everything the Forsaken do for any sort of slip-up. They will shut entire quarters down and destroy everything, sending everyone there to a "Horde Prison."

They are not there to trifle.

[Abric]

Real World PvP doesn't need shitty incentive. Fuck WG and fuck "pvp dailies".

The masses seem to disagree with you.

Personally, I'd rather fight for something that gives me something in return (i.e. a buff, a vendor, additional honor, an instance, or just keeping something away from the Alliance) than ... nothing. While satisfying to kill somebody in the same quest area as I am or getting somebody back for killing others is great - eventually you run out of quests ... people run out of cries for help ... so what am I going to do now?

Oh, that's right. I can go fight in the Eastern Plaguelands, because I know the Alliance will be there trying to take something that I own. Hooray, I get the satisfaction of ruining somebody else's day at the benefit of my own! Take that, other faction player!

[ázul]

I'm okay with fighting for it, because I already do that on a daily basis (you know those pings in chillwind? Yeah that's me)



Won't happen.

We'll be lucky for it to happen anywhere outside of cap cities.

Which is fine as long as they add in a way to dismount cowards who like to fly away... or up the mount time on flying mounts to 5 seconds. (only in Azeroth)

Tehy will probly add gryphon/bat rider swarming the cities.
Thats what I think.

[Swerto]

RAZHIJACK:

Incorrect.

Go to the Apothecarium and read Kraggosh's discussion with Faranel.

The Kor'Kron are indeed staying there and watching everything the Forsaken do for any sort of slip-up. They will shut entire quarters down and destroy everything, sending everyone there to a "Horde Prison."

They are not there to trifle.
I am confused as to what point you are trying to convey.

Are you saying that the Korkron are there just to protect the Forsaken (which would make my post incorrect, which was simply pointing out lys was right that pre wrathgate completion players will see korkron say they are there to protect, not make sure the Forsaken don't betray the Horde again.) or were you saying that the Forsaken could in no way defend themselves from the Horde (silly idea is silly)

[Netharius]

I was thinking about new settlements in Northern Lordaeron, and I would love to see an Argent Crusade or Ashen Verdict camp built around Uther's tomb. Maybe a new tomb next to it for Bolvar (since ICly he's supposed to be dead)?

What about Darrowshire? I loved that questline. With the Scourge gone, will it be removed? Will we get something, even a monument, to make up for its removal?

[Wobblebonk]

...or were you saying that the Forsaken could in no way defend themselves from the Horde (silly idea is silly)

I think we're implying that they would have difficulty defending with an orc battalion already entrenched in their own capital, open zeppelin and portal routes to major Orgrimmar and Silvermoon garrisons, and their strongest asset, the Apothecarium, decimated by a costly and demoralizing war which divided the Forsaken themselves.

Herp derp.

[Dahnek]

or were you saying that the Forsaken could in no way defend themselves from the Horde (silly idea is silly)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Danek1354/implied-facepalm.jpg

[Raziel]

What I am saying is that Kraggosh is just waiting for any opportunity to shutdown every quarter of Lordaeron and completey destroy any initiative the Forsaken have. The Deathguard and Deathstalker legions have both been completely destroyed and broken up. He wants to remove them completely; and the Forsaken are second-class citizens in their own city.

[Swerto]

Deathguards and Deathstalkers weren't even hurt by the rebellion, the Apothecarium were (big woop, dead traitors). But I'm well aware that orc hates us, and is just waiting for Garrosh to get into power (even though he currently answers to Thrall, you can tell by his attitude that he's a Garrosh supporter.)

[Raziel]

The Deathstalkers were sort of Varimathras' personal army. As such they were kind of destroyed. The Deathguard was broken up and completely replaced by the Vanguard.

[Swerto]

There are still deathguards, go to Undercity and go to the royal quarter, they're all over.

[Wobblebonk]

There are still deathguards...

...ten of them.

[Swerto]

Because there were ever any more in undercity, abominations got replaced (so from the apothecarium) not deathguards.