Blood PvP?

[Draekon]

Anyone know of a 'good' Blood PvP spec?

Also, gemming and gearing for this should mainly focus around ArP, correct? Like a Warrior?

Mah DK (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&cn=Adoron)

I've got some gems I'm going to change out (The Crit ones), as well as the trinkets.

Also, I've been testing the spec on the site in BGs. It basicly makes me really hard to kill, plus some good burst when I have my runes up. Though, I find my diseases don't last very long, and I'm using runes every other rotation to refresh them, a loss of 10-15k burst damage.

More testing. Got several 10-11k Deathstrike crits on clothies while Hysteria was up.

[Dahnek]

Your spec is a standard Blood control spec. I myself ran Blood PvP, but secondary into Unholy instead. Control was never much of a problem that I felt the need to spam CoI, and I knew how to use Blood Tap to my advantage. YOU SHOULD TOO.
As for your spec, yes it's very solid except one area, that being your lack of DRW. THAT makes me want to punch puppies. This is a bad thing. DRW + ERW and Hysteria is where your real pressure and burst comes from as blood.

Gear-wise you are doing fine except your hit is abysmal. Fix that. 5% or more gogo. Also no spell pen /shames you. Fix that too. 95 to 115 go.

You have Bryntrol, and the ex player in me cries. Between that and a number of other tricks Blood is THE outlast spec against a good many classes. Have fun with it. I did.

[Draekon]

Your spec is a standard Blood control spec. I myself ran Blood PvP, but secondary into Unholy instead. Control was never much of a problem that I felt the need to spam CoI, and I knew how to use Blood Tap to my advantage. YOU SHOULD TOO.
As for your spec, yes it's very solid except one area, that being your lack of DRW. THAT makes me want to punch puppies. This is a bad thing. DRW + ERW and Hysteria is where your real pressure and burst comes from as blood.

Gear-wise you are doing fine except your hit is abysmal. Fix that. 5% or more gogo. Also no spell pen /shames you. Fix that too. 95 to 115 go.

You have Bryntrol, and the ex player in me cries. Between that and a number of other tricks Blood is THE outlast spec against a good many classes. Have fun with it. I did.

Alright, I'll take all this and use it. Though, I'm looking at your spec, and I'm wondering: Why Outbreak? 30% to PS and 20% to SS? Wouldn't those three points be better spent in Necrosis? Make me understand :O

[Dahnek]

Necrosis effects white dmg. PvP is not won by white dmg. MY PS would hit like a ton of bricks. One ton of bricks over another falling on someone has an effect.

[Catilyn]

Before I begin, keep in mind that this is all my own opinion on the matter and your free to take or leave any advice I may offer...

I've always taken a somewhat alternative approach to Blood PvP, but it worked for me.
There are three options - you can take an offensive, (BG's/World PvP) defensive, (Solo) or mixed (Arena) approach.
Since you were talking about BG's and ArP earlier; I'll focus on the offensive aspect.

I personally, do not see the need to get any points in Frost as a Blood Death Knight in PvP.
Simply put, If your getting feared constantly, your not using your defensive capabilities properly, besides which, the potential benefits gained from going into the Unholy Tree (like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49589), this (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49572), this (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51465), or that (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49628)) far outweigh wasting so many points in Frost to get Lichborne (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49039), IMO.

Secondly, Endless Winter (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49657) is incredibly over rated for Blood Death Knights.
Renewing Frost Fever (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=59921) & Blood Plague (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=59879) is what Glyph of Disease (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45805) is for.

Thirdly, I never use Spell Penetration stats on my Blood Death Knight.
Melee is what the Blood Spec is centred around, so that's what we should focus on.
Don't let the side-abilities (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49895) distract you from your main purpose.
If you want hard hitting Death Coils, go Unholy. Otherwise, don't spec for it and don't glyph for it. It's a waste of potential.

This (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jciRqI0IsbRbostZ0xMhxc:GzpVM0) is what I'd recomend for BG's. You can always swap Improved Blood Presence (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50371) for On a Pale Horse (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51267) if you wanted, though keep in mind that since your not by yourself, you may well end up getting the effects of someone else's Crusader Aura (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=32223) anyway.

Take a look, tell me what you think, give me feedback and we can discuss it further in-depth. ^.^

[Dahnek]

What Catilynn forgets to mention is that so long as Mind Freeze and Chains of Ice, two of our only reliable CC as Blood can be resisted, Spell Pen is still a very important stat. DC spam or no. 95 min is the norm for Death Knights regardless of spec.

[Catilyn]

That isn't good enough reason to bother with Spell Penetration as Blood.
I've personally tried both with (95) and without (0) Spell Penetration; I didn't notice any difference...

Thus, my prognosis as far as Spell Penetration is concerned is that it's overkill, especially when I could be taking gems that provide more damage/survivability instead -- Now, having said that, it would defiantly be worth it for either an Unholy or Frost Death Knight, I understand that, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's why Spell Penetration has generally been considered as mandatory since players tend to "go with the flow" more often than not.

so long as Mind Freeze and Chains of Ice, two of our only reliable CC as Blood can be resisted, Spell Pen is still a very important stat.
Your not utilising the Heart Strike Snare (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43534) good enough if you need to constantly rely on Chains of Ice (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=45524).
CoI is not so amazing that it's mandatory to have Spell Penetration for (lets put this in perspective, it's ONE SINGLE ability), and I've never, ever, had my Mind Freeze (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=47528) resisted... ever.

As always, I'm just speaking from personal experience here, you are of course, free to do as you please; I suggest that if you have any doubts or concerns to try BOTH alternatives and see which works best for you, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[Dahnek]

Verily you are a blessed Death Knight then, for myself and countless others have indeed had their Mind Freeze resisted. Not only that but it would be rather foolish to discredit the burst dmg of a non-resisted IT or PS. However the OP can take a look at Arena Junkies, Elitist Jerks and Deathknight.Info to see what the trends are, and why.

As for Unholy and Frost, 115 spell pen was the norm as I played those specs even in Beta.

On a side note looking at the BG spec Catilyn linked earlier, I must say it is..interesting to say the least. Strikes me as more PvE then PvP though. Although I can see uses in AV white dmg boost as is emphasized.

[Catilyn]

Verily you are a blessed Death Knight then, for myself and countless others have indeed had their Mind Freeze resisted. Not only that but it would be rather foolish to discredit the burst dmg of a non-resisted IT or PS.

The whole point of having Glyph of Disease (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45805) is too keep those DoT's up indefinitely so you can still get the +healing benefits from Death Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49924) - not only that, but since Pestilence (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50842) uses a Blood rune, you can use the x1 Unholy & x1 Frost Rune you would otherwise have used on Plague Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49921) and Icy Touch (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49909), to instead be able to cast yet another Death Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49924) (saving you an extra global cooldown in the process, and another potential resist of Icy Touch (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49909)) without any interruption to the flow of the battle.

Besides, if a non-runic power spell (like Icy Touch (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49909) or Chains of Ice (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=45524)) actually does happen to end up getting resisted, the Death Knight's rune is refunded automatically anyway, you'd only be losing a global cooldown.


On a side note looking at the BG spec Catilyn linked earlier, I must say it is..interesting to say the least. Strikes me as more PvE then PvP though. Although I can see uses in AV white dmg boost as is emphasized.
That's why I classified it as an offensive-type build in my earlier post.
If for whatever reason Necrosis (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51465) & Blood-Caked Blade (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49628) don't suit your tastes, I'd recomend switching a few points around to create a more defensive based Blood PvP Build.

Like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcERqI0IsfRbostZ0gMh:GzpVM0).

[Dahnek]

The problem here is that while GoD has been a blessing in PvE (esp before the nerf that didn't allow rolling DoTs at max AP) it is actually very sub-par in PvP... between all the classes that dispel and the DoT dmg itself being minimal (if you run without Spell Pen). Even if you approach your diseases as a multiplier and nothing else, you'll need to reapply often at least one thanks to dispels and cleanses.

I love GoD in PvE (or did. All of this is moot since I retired) but not for PvP. Better to have your DRW glyphed and last longer for a larger overkill window.

[Catilyn]

Against someone who can dispell, yes, I'd agree.
Swapping the Glyph of Disease (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45805) with the Glyph of Dancing Rune Weapon (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45799) wouldn't be a bad idea at all - but I wouldn't do it without Epidemic (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49562) in the build.

Allow me reiterate the earlier posted build... here (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcERqI0IsfRbostZ0gMh:GzIVM0).

[Dahnek]

Not big on dodge myself. I'd take three of those points into Virulance. I also can't grasp the DS glyph, as it goes against the very nature of RP and it's use. I'm doing more burst and wreaking more havoc using that RP for DC's, my def CD's, DRW and Rune Strikes.

I also feel Spell Deflection assists with a huge issue that Blood DK's themselves are infamously vulnerable to; being kited and nuked. Blood Worms on the other hand heal for a miniscule amount and can be easily popped with a mild AoE.

While I'm not a big fan of it, many Blood DK's swear by Ghoul-Control builds like this one.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVMquoIobRfosZZfMGI0bbh0z:zbLVM0

Food for thought.

[Catilyn]

I chose not to get Virulance (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49568) because frankly, IMO, it sucks... I've never seen it actually make a difference to anyone who has attempted to cleanse themselves of my Diseases; and my thinking behind Anticipation (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55133) is that more dodges = more Rune Strike (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=56815)s in addition to less damage taken, melee or otherwise.

Spell Deflection (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49497) is very nice, yes, but only if you have a decent amount of Parry, which, on PvP/PvE DPS Gear, you don't.
If Draekon was planning to use Tanking Gear, I'd have included it in a heartbeat.

I chose Bloodworms (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49543) to fill in the gap for a few reasons...
#1: They practically force everyone to concentrate on the worms rather than you.
#2: If for whatever reason your enemies don't take them out, it's just free damage & healing for you.
#3: They do actually on occasion take out Shaman Totems - I've seen this!
#4: They're incredibly frickin' annoying! Seriously, they piss people off... alot... then they panic, and make mistakes.

[Dahnek]

I don't know who you faced using blood worms that they panicked. lol. I never gave them a second though when Alliance DK's had them. ;)
I'm sure some are the nervous type.

I had nearly 20% parry in my PvP set-up, and I found setting up a RS was never a problem and I could LOL my way through Chaos Bolts.

[Catilyn]

That's... a damn good amount of parry, for PvP Gear... odd, mine never got that high - although I could just be having a faulty memory.
Anyway, Lets reiterate...

If you have a good Parry% ... here (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMqIhIsfRbostZ0xMh:GzpVM0).
If you have bad Parry% ... here (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcERqI0IsfRbostZ0gMh:GzIVM0).

Or... if you just don't want to bother with the Bloodworms... here (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcERqIhIsbRbostZ0gMh:GzIVM0).

Feel free to swap GoD/GoDRW around if you feel the desire.

[Dahnek]

Secret to my RS-bombs? I might as well say now that I stopped playing.

Same secret that made me a nightmare for ever disarm class in the game. Sword Shattering rune. Lose one str proc but with my 2pc 9.5 and Virulence Sigil I never missed it, and melee classes felt the diff.

[Catilyn]

*Mumbles something about never having owned any real PvE gear*

& wait.. Virulence Sigil (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47673) doesn't, and never has affected Rune Strike... although I assume you mean the +Parry gained from the Strength buff... right?
Also, what 9.5-Tier proc is this?

EDIT: Oh, wait... this (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=67115)?

For those of you who are confused... Forceful Deflection (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49410) is a passive ability every single Death Knight has from the beginning.
This means that...

Virulence Sigil (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47673) = 2% Parry
9.5-Tier Proc (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=67115) = 1.75% Parry
Rune of Swordshattering (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=53323) = 4% Parry

Now I understand why you have ~20%. I didn't realise you meant after buffs...
An interesting little manoeuvre.

[Dahnek]

You misunderstood. What I meant is by having Swordshattering I could not use Fallen Crusader, but that I did not miss it. With HoW up and all my Str procs (T 9.5, Death's Choice and Virulence Sigil) I'd self-buff to 8k ap while retaining 45% armor pen. Losing the str/heal proc of FC for the passive reliability of Swordshattering was worth it.

PLUS the boost to parry via Forceful Deflection.

[Dahnek]

oh and retain 115 spell pen :p

[Catilyn]

Now I understand why you have ~20%. I didn't realise you meant after buffs...
^ That.

In any case, getting back on topic, I'm going to go ahead and settle on two alternative suggestions for you to try out, Draekon.

Either this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMqIhIsfRbostZ0xMh:GzpVM0).
Or this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcERqIhIsbRbostZ0gMh:GzIVM0), if you don't like the idea of including Bloodworms (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49543).

The former uses the Glyph of Disease (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45805).
While the latter uses the Glyph of Dancing Rune Weapon (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45799).

Of course, your free to take or leave my suggestions as you see fit, but I hope I've been of some assistance to you.
If you have any more queries, I'd be more than happy to provide my opinion on the matter.

~ Lyn

[Moknim]

Just dropping in to say Catilyn may be looking at PvP from a different angle than what Draekon is. Meaning, he is gearing/gemming for arenas were a resisted mind freeze (or Cyclone, from my perspective) can be game ending. This isn't the case in world pvp/WG where your mind freeze may not make any difference whatsoever to the fight. I don't know if the DK diseases are affected by spell pen as well, but if you have someone hard-dispelling them, you will need every GCD you can have (and then some) to try to keep them up for death strike. And having enough spell pen to overcome GoTW would be even more important.

Similarly, endless winter wouldn't be that useful in BGs/WG, but in an arena where you are going to be tossing out chains a bunch - I can see it being more than awesome for a DK.

[Draekon]

I have found this discussion very enlightening and will be taking it all under advisement. I will probably continue to use Endless Winter though due to the fact that in the past it has been invaluable for Arenas (IE Stripping DPS off the healer, Druids, and re-applying a disease plus a slowing affect.)

The rest will be considered. I'm looking at my gear and what I have right now vs. what I need plus what my Arena comp will be.

Again, thank you both for your time and thoughts. This info will be VERY useful.

[Dahnek]

Blood is only now gaining acceptance in arenas, and still is not as synergistic as Unholy or even Frost (in 5's esp) is. It becomes about hard burns when you can blow Hysteria and DRW together, and pacing until then. Your control build is a reliable one. Make some tweaks and you'll be fine. ^_^

And with that, I fully retire from WoW. *tips hat*

[Draekon]

[EDIT!!! Forgot to add the additional 30 strength from the static stat on the DMC: Greatness]
[EDIT - 2 Forgot to add Horn of Winter]

Additional Gear question:

Alright, this is what I'm considering right now.

I'm going to use the AP PvP trinket (the WG one with 190 AP) plus DMC: Greatness (90 Str with a 33% 300 str proc on heal/damage) and replace the Str gems in my gear with ArP (I have three. Making that a 30 strength gain with the card, plus a 60 ArP = 3.9% ArP gain plus approximately 260 AP gain.) The Card also procs for 300 str on damage or heal (I do both, ALOT) for a 33% proc and 15 seconds.

This versus the 190 AP plus 2.48% Crit increase (678 ArP [44% Armor ignored] 10% proc on Crit)

I personally favor the Greatness/AP Rune one because of more attack power/higher end damage when the 300 str procs.

This gives me a total of...

155 str (HoW) 30 str (Additional from static strength gain from DMC: Greatness) 300 (Greatness Proc) + 200 (Sigil Proc) + 8% str = 739 str

739 x 2 + 190 AP = 1668 AP increase, plus a 3% ArP gain (Approximately 25% ArP Total)
(4037 + 1668 = 5705 (Before 10% AP gain) 5705 + 10% AP = 6275 AP with all procs running)

Versus

2.49% crit with a low chance (27% crit chance on my DK, and then a 10% chance for the proc) for a 44% ArP. So... Approx 30% Crit (Buffed) 209 AP and a low chance (Less then 20% on crit) for 44% ArP

What do you guys think?

[Catilyn]

Okay, so now that I've returned to WoW...
Draekon - if you'd like, we can set up a time a place for us to do some dueling for practice purposes whilst talking over Ventrilo.

[Swerto]

I've just started playing my DK again, I might try my DPS spec for teh lolz (even though it's a pure DPS spec and not even good at DPS until I get better gear :O)

[Catilyn]

The same offer applies to you, Swerto. (and for the record, any other TNG'er)
Just hit me up with a PM.

I don't want to see any more "Dork Knights" in World PvP again...

[Swerto]

He has like zero PvP gear, other than hateful shoulders I grabbed back in 3.1

[Jikara]

The same offer applies to you, Swerto. (and for the record, any other TNG'er)
Just hit me up with a PM.

I don't want to see any more "Dork Knights" in World PvP again...

I'll be taking you up on this in a few weeks when my DK is 80.

[Dahnek]

My only regret in retiring from WoW is not giving you a 1v1 rematch Catilyn. Seems maybe you came into your own somewhat as Blood.

[Draekon]

Okay, so now that I've returned to WoW...
Draekon - if you'd like, we can set up a time a place for us to do some dueling for practice purposes whilst talking over Ventrilo.

Sure. I'd love to do it.

[Skaadvik]

heh

"do it"

[Lailinarel]

*Insert Skaadvik trade troll quote here.*

[Catilyn]

You can typically find me either in the TNG's public Vent, or The Dusk Watch Vent.
Whenever I'm online, I'm on either one of those, so just come on in and hit me up.

[Catilyn]

Putting this up so that Draekon can see what my UI looks like anytime he wants.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd266/Broomkin/DraekonDuel.jpg

[Maithanet]

Putting this up so that Draekon can see what my UI looks like anytime he wants.

I don't see where Draekon asked you to post a UI shot.

[Draekon]

I don't see where Draekon asked you to post a UI shot.

I asked in game.

[Draekon]

After re-reading this post, I'm beginning to see some things I might have misunderstood and missed.

Though, while I feel my current spec/gear do pretty well, I believe I'm going to switch up a few things and see what I get following Catilyn's advice a little more closely, rather then taking some of his and some of Dahnek's. (No offense Dahnek <3)

Just to test some things out.

[Dahnek]

To each their own. Good luck to ya

[Jeedup]

I don't see where Draekon asked you to post a UI shot.

Quiet you! Who let you out of your rabid cage?!

You're missing an important thing here.

Draek hit Catilyn for 666 damage in two hits!

[opalexian]

a. You use THAT font on your SCT? GAH! X D

b. You're giving them fodder to 'prove' I should go back to the default interface FFFFFFFFFFFF

I wanna know more of what happened with the duels (besides you obviously raping him with the power of SATAN ; b ) because Im a total chickenshit and stole his spec, and I think I'm one of those 'dork knights' you speak of (that's not the sped tho, that's me...) I find it a great time in BGs but Im very shaky with it in arenas.

Also, once again, welcome back Dahnek, no you can never leave, you can only take a break... >: D

[Draekon]

Alot of our fights were really close. I believe it came down to me having a little more burst and him having a alot more survivability/practice with the build then I have. (Also, I have never actually fought another Blood DK o.o)

He won most of them, and I beat him a few times. Again, they were pretty close all told.

[Dahnek]

Also, once again, welcome back Dahnek, no you can never leave, you can only take a break... >: D


I WILL NOT BE COMING BACK TO WOW. FFS

[opalexian]

But you will always be lured back by Villayna's amazing sexiness and the promise of cookies. And then we open up your head and start picking DK info out again... >_>

[Dahnek]

*Sits there with mouth agape*