Ashen Verdict Reinforcements

[Irontoe]

http://img34.yfrog.com/img34/8130/lolukiddingme.jpg

Fuck Blizzard, srsly.

[Yatokth]

Wow...

[Lysimachus]

Wait, is this a joke?

You have to be kidding me.

[Leoren]

Next they'll only unlock Arena ratings above 2000 for $10 bucks.

Really, it's cool! Half of it will go to a charitable cause!

Ignore the other half lining the coffers ...

[Serenity]

Nice try, Googe.


Think I'm gonna call bullshit on this, though. =]

[Irontoe]

Nice try, Googe.


Think I'm gonna call bullshit on this, though. =]

That was quick.

[Swerto]

I FUCKING WARNED YOU (http://I%20FUCKING%20WARNED%20YOU)

[Lysimachus]

Yes, it is a joke. Blizzard wouldn't do this. Not at this juncture, anyway.

[Swerto]

THIS IS NOT A JOKE!!!!!!1111!!!ONE!

[Broxigan]

It would help if someone knew how to spell purchasing.

[Cyrass]

I FUCKING WARNED YOU (http://I%20FUCKING%20WARNED%20YOU)

They let someone as gullible as you into Venom Post?

[Grev]

This thread sucks.

edit: Actually I retract that. Seeing Swerto's reaction makes the thread worthy.

[Gorvena]

Fish. In. A. Barrel.

lolwut?

[Yatokth]

They let someone as gullible as you into Venom Post?

Fooled me.

Probably because I'd been having discussions on Blizzard's money-grubbing policies lately with a certain esteemed Fhenrir chap.

[Grev]

Probably because I'd been having discussions on Blizzard's money-grubbing policies lately with a certain esteemed Fhenrir chap.
How dare that business make money.

[Irontoe]

How dare that business make money.

I take exception to it when they begin to find ways to make money at the expense of game design.

[Grev]

I take exception to it when they begin to find ways to make money at the expense of game design.
What expenses have we incurred thus far? Vanity pets? What a tragic blow to the integrity of the game.

[Irontoe]

What expenses have we incurred thus far? Vanity pets? What a tragic blow to the integrity of the game.

Don't be obtuse. I didn't say I had a problem with what they've done so far.

[Ryoku]

What expenses have we incurred thus far? Vanity pets? What a tragic blow to the integrity of the game.

I think it has something to do with the expenses explained in the original post, as fake as they are.

Such things would be bullshit, and going against their claimed state on monetary expenses.

[Grev]

I think it has something to do with the expenses explained in the original post, as fake as they are.

Such things would be bullshit, and going against their claimed state on monetary expenses.
So Blizzard is money-grubbing over a hypothetical situation that will more than likely never come to fruition?

[Irontoe]

So Blizzard is money-grubbing over a hypothetical situation that will more than likely never come to fruition?

No, they're definitely still money-grubbing, I just don't have a problem with it right now and will continue to pay the minimum $15/month to feed the host.

[Agnarr]

No, they're definitely still money-grubbing, I just don't have a problem with it right now and will continue to pay the minimum $15/month to feed the host.

Actually the minimum is $70something every 6 months. ;)

[Ryoku]

So Blizzard is money-grubbing over a hypothetical situation that will more than likely never come to fruition?

I think what people are meaning by "Money-Grubbing" is that they really don't put it past Blizzard to do something like that. They have proven to be inherently greedy.

I know I wouldn't put it past them. Especially the Make-A-Wish foundation part. They'll gladly take credit for the money you're spending.

[Grev]

I know I wouldn't put it past them. Especially the Make-A-Wish foundation part. They'll gladly take credit for the money you're spending.
I'm willing to bet Make-A-Wish received more money from the sales of that vanity pet than if Blizzard had just posted something on their front page along the lines of: "Hey guys, you should donate to Make-A-Wish because it's a good cause and stuff."

They gave people an incentive to spend money and half of it went to a charity. If you're mad about that you really need to redirect your anger to a more worthwhile cause.

You can't really make an argument for greed when every service Blizzard offers to their customers is optional aside from the $15/month fee, which equals out to a whopping $180 a year assuming you don't buy your time in bulk. And every optional service they offer is in no way game-breaking or significantly beneficial to the customer.

You could make a case for race transfers, since racials are apparently serious business in Arenas. But the player base has been ranting about that feature for years so it's only natural they slowly gravitated towards offering it. I think saying "fuck you sucker, reroll if you want to be an orc" would be a bigger dick move than "ok if you're really worried about it give us $20 and we'll fix it".

[Faeriel]

Heh, that was pretty funny.

[Yatokth]

So Blizzard is money-grubbing over a hypothetical situation that will more than likely never come to fruition?

Starcraft 2.

[Broxigan]

Starcraft 2.

THREE CAMPAIGNS THROUGH...

THREE EXPANSIONS.

THREE YEARS.

39.99 EACH.

OH YEAH.

[Necroxis]

THREE CAMPAIGNS THROUGH...

THREE EXPANSIONS.

THREE YEARS.

39.99 EACH.

OH YEAH.

Im still not gonna freak out over this until I see the first of the expansions (After the Terran Campaign) come out. If they have legitimately more than just another campaign, I'm fine with it. But if they just add the campaign and the units are no different than what you can play online (Because you can play all 3 races online right off the bat) then I'll be pissed.

[Swerto]

They let someone as gullible as you into Venom Post?
Obviously you missed my second post.

[Serenity]

Obviously you missed my second post.
That's one of the perks of being a troll; whenever you're wrong and make an ass of yourself, you can just fall back and pretend "oh i wuz just trolling LOL".


Abuse what you can, Swerto! Don't let anyone hold you back!

[Irontoe]

That's one of the perks of being a troll; whenever you're wrong and make an ass of yourself, you can just fall back and pretend "oh i wuz just trolling LOL".


Abuse what you can, Swerto! Don't let anyone hold you back!

He posted after I told everyone "Yeah, this is a troll," so I believe him.

[Gorvena]

http://wow-tng.org/picture.php?albumid=250&pictureid=1572

[Serenity]

He posted after I told everyone "Yeah, this is a troll," so I believe him.
He replied at the same time as you. He didn't see your post, brah.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I wouldn't be so quick to chastise them for being money-grubbing on some of the actual new initiatives they've pushed, and I wouldn't be too surprised in the uptick of paid services, or the Battlenet merger. According to their financial statements, 38% of Blizzard's revenue comes from MMORPGs, (SEC Filings, Pg. 50) they lost 233 million in operations, and after investment income, and an income tax benefit, they end with a 107 million dollar net loss. (45) Trying to increase revenues in this area may help with that shortfall.

If you were losing 107 million dollars a year, what would you do?

(The source for those interested: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/718877/000104746909002015/a2190811z10-k.htm#ds18301_item_8._consolidated_financial__ite0 2490 )

[Swerto]

Bull shit.

$15 per account, 9 million subscribers.

9 million * 15 = $135 million a month.

That's just subscriptions, you're missing the game purchases, the money they get from merchandise, and their services...

I'd bet that blizzard makes upwards of $200 million a month, that should more than cover the losses they get from hodling blizzcons, putting out ads, and keeping the game running, and still get a good amount of money back as profit.

I highly doubt Blizzard is in need of making more money at this point, but they can go ahead and try to as much as they want; it's their business.

[Lythas]

WAIT, LET ME GET MY ABACUS.

[Jeedup]

Bull shit.

$15 per account, 9 million subscribers.

9 million * 15 = $135 million a month.

That's just subscriptions, you're missing the game purchases, the money they get from merchandise, and their services...

I'd bet that blizzard makes upwards of $200 million a month, that should more than cover the losses they get from hodling blizzcons, putting out ads, and keeping the game running, and still get a good amount of money back as profit.

I highly doubt Blizzard is in need of making more money at this point, but they can go ahead and try to as much as they want; it's their business.

You're missing a big thing in this here:

Blizzard isn't making the money. Activison-Blizzard is, and by that, Vivendi. That doesn't mean a thing on how much they're alloted for funding on development. Your forgetting sever maintenance, paychecks, utility costs, these things DO add up after awhile. One game, even with alot of additional purchases of merchandise, is not enough to keep a company afloat. I wouldn't doubt that a company as large as Vivendi would cut its strings to Blizzard if it began to feel it wasn't up to snuff, or cause them to well, suck, ie-change their development stradegy.

[Vyn]

I would've been a lot less suspicious if the search bar said some worldofwarcraft.com/store/htmlbullshitstuffhere instead of wow.com.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Bull shit.

$15 per account, 9 million subscribers.

9 million * 15 = $135 million a month.

That's just subscriptions, you're missing the game purchases, the money they get from merchandise, and their services...

I'd bet that blizzard makes upwards of $200 million a month, that should more than cover the losses they get from hodling blizzcons, putting out ads, and keeping the game running, and still get a good amount of money back as profit.

I highly doubt Blizzard is in need of making more money at this point, but they can go ahead and try to as much as they want; it's their business.

I'm sorry, Swerto, but I only quoted the statements, which are accepted by the Securities and Exchange Commission, which conform to the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles of the United States of America (U.S. GAAP), which were audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers (F-1), and which were confirmed as accurate by the Board of Directors (65, 66), many of whom would be violating the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, and the Securities and Exchange Act of 1934 if they lied, or were simply incorrect.

Unless Blizzard is violating current regulatory legislation, it is the most accurate report on Blizzard's financial state for the past fiscal year, accessible to the public.

(By the way, their actual operating revenues, according to the report for last year stand at 3.7 billion.)

[Lythas]

... are you an accountant or an economics major? Not being sarcastic or anything, but I am seriously curious about this. I just need some closure.

[Chikt]

My fucking god you people make me facepalm.

Games. They're serious business. Seriously. Might as well make money off other peoples entertainment.

I sear, gamers are some of THE most jaded people about DLC or purchasable content, and while I do not agree with purchasing something that makes you better at the game, or makes it easier, I DO agree with game companies getting every cent they can for their hard work.

God forbid that people want to get paid or companies want to expand. There is no such thing as enough money. Being in the green is far preferable to being in the black.


Bull shit.

$15 per account, 9 million subscribers.

9 million * 15 = $135 million a month.

That's just subscriptions, you're missing the game purchases, the money they get from merchandise, and their services...

I'd bet that blizzard makes upwards of $200 million a month, that should more than cover the losses they get from hodling blizzcons, putting out ads, and keeping the game running, and still get a good amount of money back as profit.

I highly doubt Blizzard is in need of making more money at this point, but they can go ahead and try to as much as they want; it's their business.

I am calling bullshit. Do you have ANY IDEA how expensive Blizzcon is? Or how much it costs to sustain servers? Or pay for advertising? And pay for hundreds of employees?

All you people saying "Oh, they make enough, why do they need more?!" need to shut UP. Because if you had the choice between just making it by every week and paying the bills, or making it by every week with a few extra million in your pocket, we all know what you would choose.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I don't think I could have said it better than Dio just did, only I would expand it to almost every company in the world. If more people would take a few moments to pull up a financial statement to get an idea of what is actually going on with the company they're about to talk about, the world would be a better place


... are you an accountant or an economics major? Not being sarcastic or anything, but I am seriously curious about this. I just need some closure.

I am a major in accountancy, which requires numerous classes in economics. (Especially now when the field is changing, and when, with computers, accountants no longer need to sit for hours on end in a basement with a calculator and just crunch numbers. They're taking a much more active role in running the firm.)

[Cyrass]

I am calling bullshit. Do you have ANY IDEA how expensive Blizzcon is? Or how much it costs to sustain servers? Or pay for advertising? And pay for hundreds of employees?

While I agree with pretty much everything else you've said, I'd also say this: I'd be wiling to put money on the fact that Blizzcon turns a profit. Aside from this, I agree with pretty much everything you've said.

[Broxigan]

Bull shit.

$15 per account, 9 million subscribers.

9 million * 15 = $135 million a month.

That's just subscriptions, you're missing the game purchases, the money they get from merchandise, and their services...

I'd bet that blizzard makes upwards of $200 million a month, that should more than cover the losses they get from hodling blizzcons, putting out ads, and keeping the game running, and still get a good amount of money back as profit.

I highly doubt Blizzard is in need of making more money at this point, but they can go ahead and try to as much as they want; it's their business.

...Sorry Swerto, but blololol.

Dio said it best above. Yes, they make a shit load of money a month, but there are ALOT of things that money goes in to.

Another thing is that some people are able to pay a little bit of a cheaper price depending on the subscription rate they choose.

Also, they have 9 million accounts, right? Just how many or those are active paying accounts?

As for game purchases, those are a once done deal for most people. On AVERAGE, one expansion brings in $360 Million smackers. That is if ALL 9 million people upgrade.

But, the point has been made.

You have:

Employees
Building fees
Federal fees and taxes
Server maintenance
Electricity bills to run said servers 24/7
Advertising
Custodial Services
Man-hours to put in to develop more content
Man-hours to put in to develop OTHER games
And much much more!

Right now, Warcraft is Blizzard's only real money maker. Diablo 1 and 2 and Starcraft are on Battlenet, which is a FREE server. Most people can get Diablo 1/2 and Starcraft for under 20 bucks.

If Warcraft had never been so successful, Blizz would probably not be around considering how much they have riding on their one cash cow right now.

[Grev]

While I agree with pretty much everything else you've said, I'd also say this: I'd be wiling to put money on the fact that Blizzcon turns a profit. Aside from this, I agree with pretty much everything you've said.
Maybe recent Blizzcons, because they finally got the bright idea that people unable to attend would pay to watch them on PPV. But I'm sure they've lost a nice chunk of money from past Blizzcons.

Either way, I'm with Dio. The gaming industry deserves to make money.

[Swerto]

I love when people misread what I say. I never said anything about me not liking that they make money, because obviously I want everything in this world to be free. Instead I stated that Blizzard doesn't need to resort to turning this game into a 'pay with everything with real life money' type of game, because they're kind of already making money.

Employee costs, guessing that people make quite a bit of money for working at blizzard... maybe two or three million a month tops towards employee salaries unless there are hundreds of people making hundreds of thousands or more per week.

Server maitenence itself could cost anywhere from a few hundred dollars a server, ,to over a thousand dollars a server, the servers themselves cost over a thousand dollars each, still with the hundreds of servers you won't reach anything near $150 million. This is probably the biggest guess with me because I have no idea what kind of servers they have and how they are running them.

Blizzcon turns a profit at $45 a ticket and a few thousand people showing up.

Adds probably cost than more then a few million dollars a year.

Future development is probably the hugest sink in blizzard's profit, considering it doesn't immediately make money from them and is always a gamble, which the gaming industry is, and if they put enough into development it could account for them going at a bit of a loss. Of course most game companies look like that during periods of heavy development and hopefully turn a large profit to make up for it later on.

Of course my statement was based on the fact that all the money went to blizzard, if not then yes they are probably losing money because they would need that money to turn a profit unless they dropped all development.

[Chikt]

I love when people misread what I say. I never said anything about me not liking that they make money, because obviously I want everything in this world to be free. Instead I stated that Blizzard doesn't need to resort to turning this game into a 'pay with everything with real life money' type of game, because they're kind of already making money.

That's not what you said, at all.


Employee costs, guessing that people make quite a bit of money for working at blizzard... maybe two or three million a month tops towards employee salaries unless there are hundreds of people making hundreds of thousands or more per week.

You don't know how many employees they have or how much they're getting paid.


Server maitenence itself could cost anywhere from a few hundred dollars a server, ,to over a thousand dollars a server, the servers themselves cost over a thousand dollars each, still with the hundreds of servers you won't reach anything near $150 million. This is probably the biggest guess with me because I have no idea what kind of servers they have and how they are running them.

You do not know how the servers work, what sort of storage they use, or how many servers are required to run one WoW server.


Blizzcon turns a profit at $45 a ticket and a few thousand people showing up.

How you get a number of turning a profit from $45 a ticket I don't know. I don't doubt that Blizzard makes a profit off of Blizzcon.


Adds probably cost than more then a few million dollars a year.

Possible but we don't know the salary of the big name actors in them.


Future development is probably the hugest sink in blizzard's profit, considering it doesn't immediately make money from them and is always a gamble, which the gaming industry is, and if they put enough into development it could account for them going at a bit of a loss. Of course most game companies look like that during periods of heavy development and hopefully turn a large profit to make up for it later on.

Future development, in any game development studio, is always funded by the current project. It's not actually a sink in profit, as any good MMO is ALWAYS going to be constantly working on new content for players. That said, this comes back to wages and also includes R&D.


Of course my statement was based on the fact that all the money went to blizzard, if not then yes they are probably losing money because they would need that money to turn a profit unless they dropped all development.

The money made on WoW doesn't just get given to Blizzard. It's shared with Activision-Blizzard, and the money wouldn't just be spent on WoW, it'd be spent on other projects too.

In closing - give some sources for the numbers you're spouting or else you just look over opinionated and silly.

[Gorvena]

give some sources for the numbers you're spouting or else you just look over opinionated and silly.
Now that right there is funny.

[Chikt]

Now that right there is funny.

It was intended to be! :D

[Ryoku]

give some sources for the numbers you're spouting or else you just look over opinionated and silly.

That's kind-of interesting word choice seeing as you're an aspiring game designer making an argument to defend Blizzard, advocating for the various means they siphon money out of people's pocket. Is this not a conflict of interest?

Note, I don't entirely begrudge them for siphoning my money. Until they start turning out vast amounts of profit I'm completely complacent, nor am I trying to spite YOU by bringing this little thing up. Because we're fwiends.

But I know what you're up to, swindler.. >_>

[Akuje]

Blizzcon turns a profit at $45 a ticket and a few thousand people showing up.



Have you ever hosted a event? No. You have no knowledge of what it takes, I do.

When you host a event, your ticket costs, admission fees, however people pay to get in, are set to cover ONLY operating expenses. I.E. The building or any other facility used.

So, we've paid to have a place to party. Now we have give aways, lots of them, that's at a cost to Blizzard. We also have employees, that's at a cost Blizzard.

When we host a race event, or major 3 day car show, with attendance of 200 or so, we will loose $10,000 on the event, EVEN charging $200 to come, and making sales on the site.

Stop with your unsubstantiated rants, and try to come back slightly educated on the topic.

[Svetlaena]

Why do half the arguments on this board end up being personal attacks on Swerto? Is there any GOOD reason for this or is it just Natural Law?

[Akuje]

Why do half the arguments on this board end up being personal attacks on Swerto? Is there any GOOD reason for this or is it just Natural Law?

IF that is directed at me, I made no personal attacks but factual statements, He is making unsubstantiated claims that are uneducated.

Another reason may be he becomes so passionate and irrational in a lot of his arguments, which people work to disprove with reason, that his passion prevents him from seeing.

[Grev]

Note, I don't entirely begrudge them for siphoning my money. Until they start turning out vast amounts of profit I'm completely complacent, nor am I trying to spite YOU by bringing this little thing up. Because we're fwiends.[/I]
Why would you even care then? Is $15/month not a reasonable price for the entertainment value? I think so. WoW keeps me busy, way busier than I'd actually like it to keep me. I think the $15/month is well worth its weight.

Outside of the $15/month there is nothing else they require of you to play or stay competitive in their game. Maybe $40 an expansion every year, which is standard practice for most PC games.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I don't see why there is an argument over costs, and why we're still arguing about whether or not Blizzard made a profit, because all of that information is here: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/718877/000104746909002015/a2190811z10-k.htm#page_fe18301_1_4

F-4, or Pg 45, will show a statement of income (F-4 is a bit more comprehensive though). Here is the data from the last fiscal year. All numbers are expressed in millions of dollars. (For example: "1" is 1 million dollars.)

Net revenues

Product sales: $ 1,872
Subscription, licensing, and other revenues: 1,154

Total net revenues :3,026

Costs and expenses

Cost of sales—product costs: 1,160
Cost of sales—software royalties and amortization: 267
Cost of sales—intellectual property licenses: 219
Cost of sales—MMORPG: 193
Product development: 592
Sales and marketing: 464
Restructuring costs: 93
General and administrative: 271

Total costs and expenses: 3,259

Operating income (loss): (233)
Investment income (loss), net: 46

Income (loss) before income tax benefit: (187 )
Income tax benefit: (80 )

Net income (loss): $ (107 )

No profit, just a loss, and because GAAP requires absorption costing, many of their fixed overhead expenses (factory rent, depreciation, maintenance) aren't being expressed either. This is because absorption costing treats fixed overhead as a product cost, and not as a period cost.

[Yatokth]

Why do half the arguments on this board end up being personal attacks on Swerto? Is there any GOOD reason for this or is it just Natural Law?

He was being pretty over opinionated and silly. Calling a spade a spade.

Personally, I don't care if they offer extra paid services as long as they are not required to be the best at the hardcore echelon of the game, and SC2, I'm rather on the fence, if it's actually like, 3 full games, then okay, might be worth it, they do need to support all the quality work they put into the game (No, I'm not being sarcastic, I think Blizz are great designers) but just the idea of not getting the full game unless you pay over $100 over the course of a few years? Eh, just seems.. blah to me. Unnecessary. They could prove me wrong.

And of course, a business is entitled to make money, but there's making money, and there's gratuitous money-grubbing. Apparently, blizz needs to make more money. Away, then! I'm sure D3 will sell lots of copies too.

[Lysimachus]

I don't see why there is an argument over costs, and why we're still arguing about whether or not Blizzard made a profit, because all of that information is here: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/718877/000104746909002015/a2190811z10-k.htm#page_fe18301_1_4

F-4, or Pg 45, will show a statement of income (F-4 is a bit more comprehensive though). Here is the data from the last fiscal year. All numbers are expressed in millions of dollars. (For example: "1" is 1 million dollars.)

Net revenues

Product sales: $ 1,872
Subscription, licensing, and other revenues: 1,154

Total net revenues :3,026

Costs and expenses

Cost of sales—product costs: 1,160
Cost of sales—software royalties and amortization: 267
Cost of sales—intellectual property licenses: 219
Cost of sales—MMORPG: 193
Product development: 592
Sales and marketing: 464
Restructuring costs: 93
General and administrative: 271

Total costs and expenses: 3,259

Operating income (loss): (233)
Investment income (loss), net: 46

Income (loss) before income tax benefit: (187 )
Income tax benefit: (80 )

Net income (loss): $ (107 )

No profit, just a loss, and because GAAP requires absorption costing, many of their fixed overhead expenses (factory rent, depreciation, maintenance) aren't being expressed either. This is because absorption costing treats fixed overhead as a product cost, and not as a period cost.



Well, there's someone with some cold, hard data!

[Kredorian]

Well, there's someone with some cold, hard data!


Sounds hott... ;-)

[Lysimachus]

It's almost as hot as when I'm cutting yellow gems.

"So what would you like? Smooth? Thick? Or Rigid?"

"Oh, come on, Lysimachus. You know it's always just Quick."

[Kredorian]

It's almost as hot as when I'm cutting yellow gems.

"So what would you like? Smooth? Thick? Or Rigid?"

"Oh, come on, Lysimachus. You know it's always just Quick."


HA! Now I am aroused.

It makes me want to be a JC...

Cut some stuff for me baby... nice shoes.

[Chikt]

That's kind-of interesting word choice seeing as you're an aspiring game designer making an argument to defend Blizzard, advocating for the various means they siphon money out of people's pocket. Is this not a conflict of interest?

Read your own sentence.

I am an aspiring game designer.

I am defending Blizzard as they siphon money.

You see what I'm getting at here? I'm trying to convince you all to get swindled give Blizzard your hard earned cash because they provide a service, so I get paid more the hard working people at Activision Blizzard get paid their due.

[Ryoku]

Oh, but indirectly you're setting up the market so that you get paid more.

I see through your lies!

[Chikt]

Oh, but indirectly you're setting up the market so that you get paid more.

I see through your lies!

I never lied! I only tried to hide it. In a half-assed fashion.

[Ryoku]

I never lied! I only tried to hide it. In a half-assed fashion.

Uhh.. Down with the corporations!

[Kredorian]

Cant we argue about thickness?

[Chikt]

Uhh.. Down with the corporations!

Up with big paydays!