Playing on a pvp server..yet hating pvp?

[Derathenus]

Have you guys seen this?

Comments like:

1. This new LFG tool will eliminate ganking for me!

2. Ignore that guy(or people) attacking X place, they will go away..

3. Other faction is attacking one of our cities? Who cares?

4. Someone in Local Defense asks: Can someone help me? I'm being attacked by a high level player (Response from another player in Local defense: QQ more?)

Why do people forget those are things that can and will happen on a pvp realm? Why don't they go to a normal realm?

[Yatokth]

You're new, aren't you.

[Cessily]

Well, there is a thin line between accepting pvp and being a complete douchebag.

It's entirely up to you if you are going to gank lowbies and people for hours to no end, never letting them enjoy the game, or if you are going to kill quest npcs or whatever. While you are within your right to do so in a pvp realm, I think all things could be done in moderation.

I am no angel myself. I kill lowbies when I can, I corpse camp classes that have a hard time running away from me (in the Old World) and I try to be quite douchey when I see a death knight, shaman or poor-geared pally. But I do think that all things have limits, and sometimes 'Normal server is that way' is not the best answer for things.

That being sad, if you don't want to get killed while leveling an alt, don't roll on a pvp server, and I agree with you u_u

[Grev]

Everyone has different motives for rolling on PvP realms. Some people were introduced to the game through friends who were already established on PvP realms, some people just flock to whichever realm has a flourishing RP or PvE community, regardless of realm type.

Then there are those who just like to participate in world PvP sporadically, rather than base their entire play around it.

I'm not sure why you or anyone else would care about how people decide to play this game. It seems like you're aggravated that the new LFG is going to eliminate easy targets for you to pick off. But I'm sure you'd be less aggravated than if all of those people you're telling to leave really took their ball and went home, because you might find yourself playing on a ghost realm.

[Derathenus]

I actually started seeing it, when I was on the isle..and it got worse probably when Wrath came out, or sometime after...

No im not new...far from it..

I rarely, if ever camp, but I don't see the same world pvp as I remember..

Now let me tell you of my play history...

I started in a pvp-rp realm, Emerald Dream. I was allaince. PVP happened all the time in old world and Outland. I didn't like getting ganked, but I knew that was part of the expierience.

When I leveled, nowhere was safe, rogues ganked, it was the nature of the realm. People said something was up in Local Defense, and help came.

This continued in BC,

When I decided to go horde around summer of 08' TN was the server for me, because alot of the people on ED I played with, had horde alts here at the time. But since then and now, I've seen world pvp decrease in old world to the point of non-existance..

My new mage, hasn't been camped once since i created him. Now hes in Hillsbrad, which was one of the those infamaos pvp zones since pvp realms opened up. Only one DK bothered to go threw the area.

Honestly, I think both sides need to ramp up to pvp on this realm.. :)

[Yatokth]

Plenty of PvP happens, you'll see people whining about it wherever you go, and people who don't care wherever you go.

Go attack something. Best way to get something done is start it yourself.

[Derathenus]

Plenty of PvP happens, you'll see people whining about it wherever you go, and people who don't care wherever you go.

Go attack something. Best way to get something done is start it yourself.

Wise words..:)

[Härken]

You're new, aren't you.

^ that made me rofl

[Derathenus]

You have expierience rofl..

[Rethius]

Have you guys seen this?

Comments like:

1. This new LFG tool will eliminate ganking for me!

2. Ignore that guy(or people) attacking X place, they will go away..

3. Other faction is attacking one of our cities? Who cares?

4. Someone in Local Defense asks: Can someone help me? I'm being attacked by a high level player (Response from another player in Local defense: QQ more?)

Why do people forget those are things that can and will happen on a pvp realm? Why don't they go to a normal realm?



"QQ Hordie gank me."

NEVER "QQ Allie gank me."


I assume you're a bloodelf, and thus you have no right to complain about people who complain about getting ganked. Because it never happens.


THIS IS WHY I FIGHT, THIS IS WHY I KILL. Arr...

[Yatokth]

I've seen plenty of Horde not give a shit about people who get ganked.

There are, however, more Horde who ALSO DO give a shit.

[Derathenus]

"QQ Hordie gank me."

NEVER "QQ Allie gank me."


I assume you're a bloodelf, and thus you have no right to complain about people who complain about getting ganked. Because it never happens.


THIS IS WHY I FIGHT, THIS IS WHY I KILL. Arr...

When i first appeared on the realm, it did happen actually.

Is TN more horde centric now? I have been told it is.

I have no problem about people complaining about being ganked, as long as they ask for help. I have a problem with however, the people who tell those people to shut up. I just don't understand why asking for help is a sin on a pvp realm.

[Lysimachus]

The main issue is that there really ARE too many horde on this server.

Honestly, it all comes down to that, as far as I can tell.

If the factions were equal, and therefore the factions within factions which actually cared for world PvP were fairly equivalent, then life would be good.

Wait for Cataclysm. I'll roll a Worgen, just for you, and challenge the Horde.

Also, I'm lying about the Worgen and Horde part.

[Derathenus]

Strange thing is, most RP realms from what I've been told, are the opposite, allaince outnumbers horde..

[Lysimachus]

RP realms, or RP PVP realms? I recall looking at the numbers, and I'd thought that the RP PvE realms had more alliance, but the RP PvP realms had more horde. Was I crazy, or am I mistaken?

[Härken]

RP realms, or RP PVP realms? I recall looking at the numbers, and I'd thought that the RP PvE realms had more alliance, but the RP PvP realms had more horde. Was I crazy, or am I mistaken?

Just crazy champ.

but what you say is true

[Derathenus]

Emerald Dream is the exception to that rule if thats the case, or was when I left it, Allaince dominated that realm.

[Vyn]

Psh. There are plenty of Alliance RPers. They don't frequent the TNG, and are generally a bunch of ERPers or "(The Old) God's Gift to Azeroth"

I saw like over 9000 guilds pop up in guild recruitment that claimed to be RP guilds my first day in.*

*All of these claims are wildly exaggerated and probably innacurate.

[Derathenus]

You mean the "We are a light/moderate rp guild that also raids.." oO

[Catilyn]

Emerald Dream is the exception to that rule if thats the case, or was when I left it, Allaince dominated that realm.

Hey, Emerald Dream used to be the server I used for my Horde characters - your absolutely right when you say there's tons of Alliance...

<Kingship of the East> on ED resembles the alliance version of TN's <Raven Cross>, in my opinion.

Do you remember <Nyx>? My brother is the Guild Master.

[Yatokth]

<Kingship of the East> on ED resembles the alliance version of TN's <Raven Cross>, in my opinion.

WARNING: SHAMELESS E-PEENING

I see no 2300 3v3s.

[Catilyn]

True, though I meant in terms of RP-PvP activity, guild size and status rather than game mechanics and scores.

Good Arena Rating does not always equate to a good PvP'er.

[Yatokth]

True, though I meant in terms of RP-PvP activity, guild size and status rather than game mechanics and scores.

Good Arena Rating does not always equate to a good PvP'er.

Actually they're quite a bit larger than we are.

And by an OVERWHELMING margin, more often than not, good arena rating in one of the balanced brackets (3s, 5s) means at the very least, a decent player. Higher you go, the less likely it is that the player in question got carried/sucks.

Also note that the inability to function in said arena situations is a disadvantage against someone who can.

[Derathenus]

Nyx eh? I don't know the name..I left in summer of 08, after my Night Elf friend left to go to Iraq. His name was Ettajay, he was a cool guy.

My allaince mage, Zilfarimon, was horrible rofl, but a fun character..

[opalexian]

Strange thing is, most RP realms from what I've been told, are the opposite, allaince outnumbers horde..

Last time I looked at census data was maybe a year ago but it held true for the previous 4 so I doubt it's changed much. PVE tend to be alli dominated because they are pretty. PVP realms tend to be horde dominated because lolracials. There ya go. ED is just weird-I hear there's ERP aplenty. o_O

[Necroxis]

Last time I looked at census data was maybe a year ago but it held true for the previous 4 so I doubt it's changed much. PVE tend to be alli dominated because they are pretty. PVP realms tend to be horde dominated because lolracials. There ya go. ED is just weird-I hear there's ERP aplenty. o_O

We...We still try tho! We may get smashed in our faces but at least sometimes we put up a good fight? :P

[Irontoe]

ED is just weird-I hear there's ERP aplenty. o_O

brb, transferring servers


Actually they're quite a bit larger than we are.

And by an OVERWHELMING margin, more often than not, good arena rating in one of the balanced brackets (3s, 5s) means at the very least, a decent player. Higher you go, the less likely it is that the player in question got carried/sucks.

Also note that the inability to function in said arena situations is a disadvantage against someone who can.

I think part of Catilyn's point is that having three good players in the guild doesn't make the guild a force to be reckoned with in World PvP. You need the numbers to defend and attack competently at all times, not just when your A Team is online, and you need a large base of experienced PvPers and leaders to draw from.

[Lysimachus]

All very lovely, this and that.

[Fhenrir]

No im not new...far from it..

This was likely in reference to this (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=17615) and this (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=17689) topic. Lots of people 'round these parts have a lot to say on the OP, as it turns out.

As far as I stand personally, while I can relate and understand people who feel differently than I do about world PvP (see: I am a bloodthirsty old coot who craves vanilla-style world encounters), I tend to have no sympathy for those who complain about world PvP or find joy in mechanics that reduce it.

[Yatokth]

I think part of Catilyn's point is that having three good players in the guild doesn't make the guild a force to be reckoned with in World PvP. You need the numbers to defend and attack competently at all times, not just when your A Team is online, and you need a large base of experienced PvPers and leaders to draw from.

Well that's not the point I got, but it's a solid one. More than just three good players are definitely needed.

[Derathenus]

Well it is kind of sad that one of the main things that made pvp realms what they were..is sort of lackluster now.

The flying mount thing is a good example in some ways, I think moreso it makes the game about the destination, not the journey, and that is something thats seen in many fascets of WOW now. In BC they intended it to be a fun way to see the world in a new way. Flying mounts were not so easy to get, now in Wrath...everything is an island, most players are in NR, because thats where everything is. It wouldn't be as much of a problem with the flyers if maybe on pvp realms, you could use your spells and abilities in midair, and being mounted wouldn't matter.

Two of the main complaints I see on this board and on wow's official forums is:

-1: Santauries in PVP realms

-2: PVP becoming boring.

[Derathenus]

Here is probably the best thread ive seen in the suggestion forums regarding world pvp:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=21035173441&sid=1&pageNo=1

[Rethius]

You mean the "We are a light/moderate rp guild that also raids.." oO

You rang?

[Grev]

<Kingship of the East> on ED resembles the alliance version of TN's <Raven Cross>, in my opinion.
KotE is The Raven Cross on ecstasy and a never-ending supply of Darknest re-enactments.

[Rand_Shea]

In response to the OP...

Realm classifications are never going to make people enjoy or participate in a game mechanic they don't like. This includes pvp.

As was said, a lot of people come here because they followed friends, or liked the realm name...

Personally, I came to this realm following friends, and wasn't at all into the pvp aspect of the game. I almost did go back to the PvE server I initially played on and probably would have eventually gotten bored of playing by myself and quit, but fortunately (at the time) had a good amount of support to help with leveling my hunter, learning how to actually play the game for both PvP and PvE, and stuck around long enough to meet some cool people.

Now I enjoy pvp, because while it started out for me as nothing but a reason for higher level players to be dickheads and ruin the game for others, it became fun later. Sometimes it takes a good amount of support, backup, and encouragement to get people into the pvp aspect of pvp servers.

Which is why I have no sympathy for pvpers who think that getting everyone else to pvp consists of 1) telling other people how much they suck, 2) screaming at them to "PVP OR GTFO", or 3) Bragging about their own pvp accomplishments and creating an environment that pretty much says nothing but "Hey, I'm awesome, I bet you wish you were like me, too bad you never will be".

Seriously, if you do that... Screw you and do us all a favor and go to a "hardcore realm". Big fish in small ponds do nothing but make hostile environments for everyone. PvP only needs to be hostile on an IC level, NOT an OOC one.

[Ryoku]

Seriously, if you do that... Screw you and do us all a favor and go to a "hardcore realm". Big fish in small ponds do nothing but make hostile environments for everyone. PvP only needs to be hostile on an IC level, NOT an OOC one.

The problem is Blizzard doesn't make a "Hardcore" realm. PvP servers used to be the "Hardcore" realm that were reccomended to not be played by people who did not want the hardcore "be ready to get your shit pushed in at a moments notice" feel of a PvP server.

Now, I don't have a problem with those who are not-so-hardcore on my server. I mean hell, I didn't base my original decision of PvP server because it was PvP. I went there for friends, and just so happened to fall in love with the server.

My problem here, Rand, is that the people who don't like PvP don't seem to realize that they are indeed on the PvPers turf, and somehow it is okay for the non-PvPer's playstyle to > the PvPer's despite being on the PvPers realm.

Here is an example that puts things in a different perspective.

Imagine a person getting ready to play football, and he can choose between touch and tackle football. They don't really like tackle, but they have friends who are playing tackle so they decide to go there for their friends. They get tackled a lot and they don't like it. Then a rule is changed allowing a space in the middle of the field to be a "Sanctuary" zone, meaning you can't tackle people in that zone. Touch guy is happy because he can stay there, but he still has to run out of the zone if he wants to accomplish anything. Then a rule has been changed where now players can use a jetpack from "Sanctuary zone" to fly over the field, but have to stop 3 yards short of a touchdown, meaning while the person can jetpack, other people can still get ready for him when he lands. Then imagine the rules were changed so that you can now jetpack directly to the touchdown line. The original tackle players bring it up and say "Wow, that's gay. He just jetpacked over us." and then the person says "I don't like getting tackled, and I shouldn't have to get tackled if I don't want to." Would the proper answer not be "Well, the touch football field is that way. We like to play where we can tackle eachother, and we don't really like the rules that are making it so we can't tackle eachother, and you don't really have to play here if you don't want to.. Touch field is that way." and then the touch player says "Well I have friends here and don't want to leave, and the rules say that I can do this so stop yelling at me because I don't like getting tackled on the tackle field!"

Are we clear now?

[Yatokth]

Imagine a person getting ready to play football, and he can choose between touch and tackle football. They don't really like tackle, but they have friends who are playing tackle so they decide to go there for their friends. They get tackled a lot and they don't like it. Then a rule is changed allowing a space in the middle of the field to be a "Sanctuary" zone, meaning you can't tackle people in that zone. Touch guy is happy because he can stay there, but he still has to run out of the zone if he wants to accomplish anything. Then a rule has been changed where now players can use a jetpack from "Sanctuary zone" to fly over the field, but have to stop 3 yards short of a touchdown, meaning while the person can jetpack, other people can still get ready for him when he lands. Then imagine the rules were changed so that you can now jetpack directly to the touchdown line. The original tackle players bring it up and say "Wow, that's gay. He just jetpacked over us." and then the person says "I don't like getting tackled, and I shouldn't have to get tackled if I don't want to." Would the proper answer not be "Well, the touch football field is that way. We like to play where we can tackle eachother, and we don't really like the rules that are making it so we can't tackle eachother, and you don't really have to play here if you don't want to.. Touch field is that way." and then the touch player says "Well I have friends here and don't want to leave, and the rules say that I can do this so stop yelling at me because I don't like getting tackled on the tackle field!"

Greatest analogy ever.

And very true.

I have no sympathy for people who come onto these servers, originally designed for DANGER ALL THE TIME PvP where you have to hold your own wherever you go and then say, "OH WELL I LIKE PVP AND ALL BUT IT'S JUST ANNOYING WHEN IM TRYING TO GO DO AN INSTANCE OR DAILY, IF I WANT PVP I'LL GO TO A BATTLEGROUND OR SOMETHING"

There isn't any other 'hardcore' server place we can go to and leave you to your preferred game type. I don't care if you came here for friends, PvE, or the ERP, the damn server type says PvP, so you signed up for it. Don't like it? Tough fucking shit.

Us diehards like our unpredictable, inconvenient World PvP, and it's slowly getting pushed to the wayside.

And then when people stop giving a shit about what World PvP there IS, we get fed up with their crap and tell them to get the fuck off our servers, because they were designed for us.

So.

PvP.

Or get the FUCK out.

[Vyn]

Imagine a person getting ready to play football, and he can choose between touch and tackle football. They don't really like tackle, but they have friends who are playing tackle so they decide to go there for their friends. They get tackled a lot and they don't like it. Then a rule is changed allowing a space in the middle of the field to be a "Sanctuary" zone, meaning you can't tackle people in that zone. Touch guy is happy because he can stay there, but he still has to run out of the zone if he wants to accomplish anything. Then a rule has been changed where now players can use a jetpack from "Sanctuary zone" to fly over the field, but have to stop 3 yards short of a touchdown, meaning while the person can jetpack, other people can still get ready for him when he lands. Then imagine the rules were changed so that you can now jetpack directly to the touchdown line. The original tackle players bring it up and say "Wow, that's gay. He just jetpacked over us." and then the person says "I don't like getting tackled, and I shouldn't have to get tackled if I don't want to." Would the proper answer not be "Well, the touch football field is that way. We like to play where we can tackle eachother, and we don't really like the rules that are making it so we can't tackle eachother, and you don't really have to play here if you don't want to.. Touch field is that way." and then the touch player says "Well I have friends here and don't want to leave, and the rules say that I can do this so stop yelling at me because I don't like getting tackled on the tackle field!"

Are we clear now?

Truly, this is the greatest analogy ever. We need to preserve this quote for future generations of "lolumad PvP suckzorz" discussions.

[Derathenus]

I just think maybe a massive war campaign of epicness is due on both sides to bring the war back. I'd like to see at least a week if possible, of nothing but the pvpers in horde and allaince plan strategic places to fight, that will be noticable, and get everyone's attention..

Hell..I'll even get the ball rolling..

PST me in game when I'm on, then we can go from there(horde players).

Allaince players, I want a good show, lets bring back those 40 man raids on crossroads, Hillsbrad etc. Lets make the entire world a battleground, and remind everyone what kind of server this is..

Who wants in?

[Trigin]

I just think maybe a massive war campaign of epicness is due on both sides to bring the war back. I'd like to see at least a week if possible, of nothing but the pvpers in horde and allaince plan strategic places to fight, that will be noticable, and get everyone's attention..

Hell..I'll even get the ball rolling..

PST me in game when I'm on, then we can go from there(horde players).

Allaince players, I want a good show, lets bring back those 40 man raids on crossroads, Hillsbrad etc. Lets make the entire world a battleground, and remind everyone what kind of server this is..

Who wants in?

Are you sure your not new?

[Yatokth]

Are you sure your not new?

Gonna have to second this, world PvP happens... ALOT.

Keep World Defense open. It comes to you. Or attack something.

40 on 40? Not so much, except in capital cities, but 4 on 4 or even 10 or 15 on said odds is common.

Note that I'm generalizing, the numbers are rarely fair, as always in World PvP.

[Derathenus]

No, the point was...really to go to places, anyone of them, all at the same time(Hillsbrad, Crossroads, Hellfire, city raids etc) So people would so a level of pvp they never thought possible going on.

Basiclly, not confine it to the guilds here, but bring it to those outside the loop, to the front door of dalaran(dismounting druids like Tenj), everywhere..

[Yatokth]

I see Saintz, Wrath of Astranaar, and plenty of non-RP guilds engaging in world PvP. If you want constant assaults EVERYWHERE, you're gonna have to convince alot of people to lose alot of sleep. Which would be COOL, but it won't happen overnight.

Server's pretty healthy as far as world PvP goes, last TN War (Cristok's) was a great success for the most part, I can only imagine it will get better.

I know Selash routinely hosts staged PvP events, which aren't always my cup of tea, but I know many enjoy them.

[Rand_Shea]

While your analogy is good, Ryoku, it's not really fully relevant to the issue. In tackle football, there aren't "safe zones" on the field or optional "no tackling" zones on the field... If you step on the field, expect to get your ass kicked.

There is no game mechanic to make pvp mandatory in ALL areas. There's sanctuary, faction controlled, and then contested zones. The first one, no pvp allowed. At all. The second one, pvp is optional depending on if it's your faction. In the third, pvp IS mandatory and anyone who ventures into those on pvp servers can and probably will get their ass kicked.

I knew coming in, at the very least, that was the case. That is why I chose to roll on this server instead of gradually getting fed up with the game due to all the drama on Shu'Halo. Even still, I was not accustomed to pvp even though I expected it, and my first experiences with it were with assholes who were max level and just camping my questing zones because the only way they seemingly could have any fun was to make it so that I wasn't having any.

Again, were it not for a positive support structure, I would have left. When a game isn't fun, I don't play it. If someone goes out of their way to make a game I paid for a horrible experience when I was offered otherwise, then I'm going to eat the initial costs and go somewhere else. Fuck everyone else, it's my game, my time, and my money... I demand to be able to have fun for what I invest into it.

The problem I'm addressing is that being a douchebag about pvp isn't going to inspire people to put effort into enjoying pvp. It's going to inspire them to be resentful and complain to the developers, who WILL bend over backwards to make pvp servers into all-but normal ones.

So, now because of all the douchebaggery, people have more effective means of ruining YOUR game experience. Irony, or Karma? You decide.

[Vyn]

While your analogy is good, Ryoku, it's not really fully relevant to the issue. In tackle football, there aren't "safe zones" on the field or optional "no tackling" zones on the field... If you step on the field, expect to get your ass kicked.

So, now because of all the douchebaggery, people have more effective means of ruining YOUR game experience. Irony, or Karma? You decide.

His example was completely relevant. To everything, ever. I have just framed that and put it on my wall.

And, that wasn't karma or irony. It was Blizzard catering to the whiny masses.

[Ryoku]

While your analogy is good, Ryoku, it's not really fully relevant to the issue. In tackle football, there aren't "safe zones" on the field or optional "no tackling" zones on the field... If you step on the field, expect to get your ass kicked.

There is no game mechanic to make pvp mandatory in ALL areas. There's sanctuary, faction controlled, and then contested zones. The first one, no pvp allowed. At all. The second one, pvp is optional depending on if it's your faction. In the third, pvp IS mandatory and anyone who ventures into those on pvp servers can and probably will get their ass kicked.

I knew coming in, at the very least, that was the case. That is why I chose to roll on this server instead of gradually getting fed up with the game due to all the drama on Shu'Halo. Even still, I was not accustomed to pvp even though I expected it, and my first experiences with it were with assholes who were max level and just camping my questing zones because the only way they seemingly could have any fun was to make it so that I wasn't having any.

Again, were it not for a positive support structure, I would have left. When a game isn't fun, I don't play it. If someone goes out of their way to make a game I paid for a horrible experience when I was offered otherwise, then I'm going to eat the initial costs and go somewhere else. Fuck everyone else, it's my game, my time, and my money... I demand to be able to have fun for what I invest into it.

The problem I'm addressing is that being a douchebag about pvp isn't going to inspire people to put effort into enjoying pvp. It's going to inspire them to be resentful and complain to the developers, who WILL bend over backwards to make pvp servers into all-but normal ones.

So, now because of all the douchebaggery, people have more effective means of ruining YOUR game experience. Irony, or Karma? You decide.

My analogy is relevant because when WoW started PvP servers were free game.

Pretty much as soon as you stepped outside of Horde/Alliance territory you were flagged. Even in places that were supposed to be deemed neutral ground, you could still kill anyone on the other faction if you were willing to take the guards (they hurt back then, by the way.) The fact remained: everywhere you went in the game you went by land in hostile territory where you could come across any other player and engage them in combat.

Blizzard, over time, changed the way the game works. That was the entire point of my analogy. Do you honestly believe I am dense enough to believe there are safe zones and jetpacks in football?

It should also be noted that the reason PvP has been gimped is not because Blizzard gives three shits about people complaining about PvP on a PvP server. If you'll notice, the things that hurt world PvP are battlegrounds (minor), flying mounts, instance teleports, and sanctuary cities.

None of these were implemented with the idea of nerfing world PvP or stopping "douchebaggery" because it has been made apparent that no matter what, douchebaggery will occur. You don't even have to PvP someone to be a douchebag. Raids work plenty fine for being a douchebag. Verbal douchebaggery is also common.

But you know, fuck me for wanting to play the game in it's originality. I'm just a douchebag asshole who's out to ruin everyone's day. In fact all those years I played that dangerous resto druid I'm just getting what I deserved. Killing all of those people so ruthlessly and quickly with my vanilla resto druid abilities. Thorns. Entangling roots. Wrath. I slaughtered them all. I should have seen it coming.

[Yatokth]

While your analogy is good, Ryoku, it's not really fully relevant to the issue. In tackle football, there aren't "safe zones" on the field or optional "no tackling" zones on the field... If you step on the field, expect to get your ass kicked.

There is no game mechanic to make pvp mandatory in ALL areas. There's sanctuary, faction controlled, and then contested zones. The first one, no pvp allowed. At all. The second one, pvp is optional depending on if it's your faction. In the third, pvp IS mandatory and anyone who ventures into those on pvp servers can and probably will get their ass kicked.

I knew coming in, at the very least, that was the case. That is why I chose to roll on this server instead of gradually getting fed up with the game due to all the drama on Shu'Halo. Even still, I was not accustomed to pvp even though I expected it, and my first experiences with it were with assholes who were max level and just camping my questing zones because the only way they seemingly could have any fun was to make it so that I wasn't having any.

Again, were it not for a positive support structure, I would have left. When a game isn't fun, I don't play it. If someone goes out of their way to make a game I paid for a horrible experience when I was offered otherwise, then I'm going to eat the initial costs and go somewhere else. Fuck everyone else, it's my game, my time, and my money... I demand to be able to have fun for what I invest into it.

The problem I'm addressing is that being a douchebag about pvp isn't going to inspire people to put effort into enjoying pvp. It's going to inspire them to be resentful and complain to the developers, who WILL bend over backwards to make pvp servers into all-but normal ones.

So, now because of all the douchebaggery, people have more effective means of ruining YOUR game experience. Irony, or Karma? You decide.

THEN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

There are griefing rules in the ToS for people who go over the line. Otherwise, suck it the fuck up, you rolled on this server type.

Also, what Ryo said. The game is moving away from that not because people whined about PvP, but because of convenience, which is just a terrible reason in my opinion.

Look at the official PvP forums (not the realm forums), and you don't see people going "OH MAN THIS GUY KILLED ME OVER AND OVER WHAT A DICK." because it's reportable if they are griefing, or you can call friends if you just suck/got counter classed/outnumbered.

What do you see?

"BLIZZ, BRING BACK WORLD PVP"

I don't think they INTENDED to keep hitting World PvP with a nerf bat, but they did, and it's become annoying, and there's still the same people who rejoice over avoiding PvP on a PvP server, which is just INCREDIBLY vexing to hear someone laud convenience changes, and when it's brought up that it's another small blow to PvP, they go "OH WELL I DIDNT REALLY LIKE IT THAT WAY ANYWAYS."

We do.

That's why the server type is here.

[Cessily]

THEN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

There are griefing rules in the ToS for people who go over the line. Otherwise, suck it the fuck up, you rolled on this server type.




While I agree with you in most part, I don't see a reason why to be so incisive >_>


PvP is no man's land, and sometimes it's entirely up to someone to decide wether or not stop ganking another person. If Rogues had Shadow Crusader Self-Aura I would gank DKs and Night Elves until they logged off. But I'm a bit of a douche like that.

[Yatokth]

While I agree with you in most part, I don't see a reason why to be so incisive >_>

Cause I'm a dick.

No, I just see no point for the people who want to avoid PvP to roll on a PvP server.

[Cessily]

Well, just as most people don't RP 100% of the time, some people don't want to PvP 100% of the time. I think that could be a reason, but I understand and agree with you. Specially because, nowdays, there is no Class in this game that is unable to run away from campers or gankers.

[Yatokth]

Well, just as most people don't RP 100% of the time, some people don't want to PvP 100% of the time. I think that could be a reason, but I understand and agree with you. Specially because, nowdays, there is no Class in this game that is unable to run away from campers or gankers.

Then roll on a normal RP server if you don't want to PvP 100% of the time. RP is completely player-controlled and mostly game mechanics free, at least not in the same way PvP is connected to them, and while I would wish for more enforcing of RP rules on RP and RP PvP servers, that's pretty much a pipe dream.

I have just as much disgust for RP griefers or people who complain about RP.

[Rand_Shea]

Cause I'm a dick.

No, I just see no point for the people who want to avoid PvP to roll on a PvP server.

There is no point for them to, but they do anyway, and that's not going to stop happening.

My point is telling people to "QQ more" when they ask for help or otherwise being an asshole in regards to pvp has so far done nothing but get those people to complain enough to where developers are accommodating them and disregarding what makes the game fun for you.

Rethius for one has done a good job of getting people who normally didn't like pvp to actually try and have fun doing it. That is infinitely more helpful to promoting and inciting world pvp than being an asshole towards people that normally just want to avoid it.

So, once again, is it irony or is it karma that world pvp SUPPOSEDLY is becoming more and more scarce?

EDIT: I'd like to add that the realm forums is never a good place to get accurate information about anything unless it's a blue post which occasionally address questions about upcoming content and changes to mechanics. No one complains on the realm forums because the realm forums are all inhabited by the people that would be complained about. There are other ways to contact Blizzard and complain, one of which is the in-game tickets system, the other is via the e-mail links posted on Blizzard's own websites. People use those to complain for both anonymity and confidentiality reasons whether because of their own cowardice or the fact that any post they make on the realm forums will get buried within an hour if not less time.

[Rethius]

If PVP servers were made to be set up so that you were always in danger they wouldn't allow level capped players to unflag.

http://shadowwar.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/stop-whining.jpeg


[Though it should]

[Trigin]

So, once again, is it irony or is it karma that world pvp SUPPOSEDLY is becoming more and more scarce?

As someone who stays perma flaged and able to balance my RP and my PvP together I will never let that happen. I swear I will raid Horde citys by myself if I have to!

[Rethius]

As someone who stays perma flaged and able to balance my RP and my PvP together I will never let that happen. I swear I will raid Horde citys by myself if I have to!

*The Dark Iron turns and spits on the ground.*

"Pff, what damned savage hit you so hard to make you forget that I'd follow ya to hell and back, hm?"

[Yatokth]

There is no point for them to, but they do anyway, and that's not going to stop happening.

My point is telling people to "QQ more" when they ask for help or otherwise being an asshole in regards to pvp has so far done nothing but get those people to complain enough to where developers are accommodating them and disregarding what makes the game fun for you.

Rethius for one has done a good job of getting people who normally didn't like pvp to actually try and have fun doing it. That is infinitely more helpful to promoting and inciting world pvp than being an asshole towards people that normally just want to avoid it.

So, once again, is it irony or is it karma that world pvp SUPPOSEDLY is becoming more and more scarce?

Ask for help?

If anyone asks for HELP in PvP I am all over that.

The only thing I have no sympathy for is people who QQ about PvP on a PvP server, or support avoiding PvP on a PvP server because it's just not what they like.

Having people participate unwillingly is part of the whole shabang of old school World PvP. It's a pain in the ass, yeah, but it keeps the environment authentic. There's much more competition. Major cities would be WAY more dangerous.

The whole "you have to take your own ground" dynamic, remember Quel'Danas? Epic. No flying mounts, bunch of dailies, lots of pissed off people, GREAT WORLD PVP.

I like two willing parties going at it, don't get me wrong, but the factor of everyone in the game being FORCED to PvP is what's so alluring to us danger-aholics, and what PvP servers used to be, and are moving away from due to convenience, not whining.

[Trigin]

*The Dark Iron turns and spits on the ground.*

"Pff, what damned savage hit you so hard to make you forget that I'd follow ya to hell and back, hm?"

"I would never go into the blackest pits of hell without my dwarf friend!"

[Yatokth]

EDIT: I'd like to add that the realm forums is never a good place to get accurate information about anything unless it's a blue post which occasionally address questions about upcoming content and changes to mechanics. No one complains on the realm forums because the realm forums are all inhabited by the people that would be complained about. There are other ways to contact Blizzard and complain, one of which is the in-game tickets system, the other is via the e-mail links posted on Blizzard's own websites. People use those to complain for both anonymity and confidentiality reasons whether because of their own cowardice or the fact that any post they make on the realm forums will get buried within an hour if not less time.

That would be why I said NOT the realm forums.

[Rethius]

"I would never go into the blackest pits of hell without my dwarf friend!"

"Hell.... Hmph.... So we ride for Silvermoon?"

*He sighs.*

"Least let me say goodbye to Viirchi... I hear the Sin'dori have a bad case of the dragoncrotch.... Whatever that is."

*He brings his index finger to his forehead before drawing it to his shoulders and sternum, forming a cross.*

[Rand_Shea]

As someone who stays perma flaged and able to balance my RP and my PvP together I will never let that happen. I swear I will raid Horde citys by myself if I have to!

My characters were always flagged as well and will always be flagged, especially at max level. I don't bother flagging while leveling a character because 90% of the time they're in contested zones anyway if I'm on them, so I don't need to.

But, again, I wouldn't have come to like pvp if I was a new player and got shit on the way that I see some of the "hardcore pvpers" on this forum shit on people. Some of those same people are the ones who are usually the first to blast someone else for taking the game too seriously, as well... and I find their responses here in regards to their beloved world pvp to be extremely ironic.

[Fhenrir]

Cause I'm a dick.

Dick or no, try to keep it cool bro. A couple of the posts in here have been pretty close to deletion range, and you're in front of the pack of offenders.

QQ more, basically. Or less, depending on how you feel about being modded.

[Yatokth]

But, again, I wouldn't have come to like pvp if I was a new player and got shit on the way that I see some of the "hardcore pvpers" on this forum shit on people. Some of those same people are the ones who are usually the first to blast someone else for taking the game too seriously, as well... and I find their responses here in regards to their beloved world pvp to be extremely ironic.

WoW's serious bro.

In all honesty, I do take this game pretty seriously, because it's a serious hobby of mine, and I get annoyed with people who don't get it. Additionally, these arguments are very circular and I've heard it all before, so I get easily pissed. My bad bro.

EDIT: Fhenrir's a fantastic mod.

[Fhenrir]

But, again, I wouldn't have come to like pvp if I was a new player and got shit on the way that I see some of the "hardcore pvpers" on this forum shit on people. Some of those same people are the ones who are usually the first to blast someone else for taking the game too seriously, as well... and I find their responses here in regards to their beloved world pvp to be extremely ironic.

If "this forum" refers to the TNG and its PvP section, then I disagree with you. This thread (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=17638) is a great example of someone new to not only the community, but the game coming into the forum and being treated respectfully.

If you disagree, send me a PM with some examples of the way people are being "shit on" in this forum. If I haven't encouraged it strongly enough from anyone and everyone here, I want this to be as well-maintained a forum as possible and do put effort into it. The offer extends to anybody else.

[Rand_Shea]

WoW's serious bro.

In all honesty, I do take this game pretty seriously, because it's a serious hobby of mine, and I get annoyed with people who don't get it. Additionally, these arguments are very circular and I've heard it all before, so I get easily pissed. My bad bro.

EDIT: Fhenrir's a terrible mod.

WoW's totally serious.

I'm guilty of taking the game too seriously a few times, particularly when it comes to pvp and getting my ass kicked. You've helped me out a few times which has always been cool, though.

Just want to make it clear that I don't condone people whining about pvp on pvp servers... I think it's stupid to do so, like it would be stupid to go out onto a football field and expect to not get tackled if you catch the ball.

I do, however, prefer to see both sides of the coin. It's not fun to get treated like crap, and pvpers being douchebags to non-pvpers doesn't help the cause one bit.

[Yatokth]

WoW's totally serious.

I'm guilty of taking the game too seriously a few times, particularly when it comes to pvp and getting my ass kicked. You've helped me out a few times which has always been cool, though.

Just want to make it clear that I don't condone people whining about pvp on pvp servers... I think it's stupid to do so, like it would be stupid to go out onto a football field and expect to not get tackled if you catch the ball.

I do, however, prefer to see both sides of the coin. It's not fun to get treated like crap, and pvpers being douchebags to non-pvpers doesn't help the cause one bit.

If you're not going to PvP? Fine. I won't appreciate it per se, but fine, enjoy the game the way you want to.

If you're going to bitch about it or rejoice at being able to avoid it more often? I'm not impressed.

That's my stance.

[Rand_Shea]

As well it should be.

[Derathenus]

I never heard of anyone quiting the game over being ganked...maybe hating the other faction and calling for help more, but quiting?

Honestly I don't see camping much anymore really. Is it a new sense of honor? If they aren't 80, they arent a fair fight, so I won't attack them?

Or is it because all the end game toons are segregated in NR now?

Just had a thought actually..

If flying is aloud in azeroth for end game toons...it will not be fun for the lowbies on pvp realms rofl....since we will once again be sharing the world with them, maybe players will likely be looking overhead for danger..

[Lysimachus]

If flying is aloud in azeroth for end game toons...it will not be fun for the lowbies on pvp realms rofl....since we will once again be sharing the world with them, maybe players will likely be looking overhead for danger..

Oh, have no doubt that some zones will be slaughterhouses. I myself will likely be hunting Worgen in Hillsbrad or Wetlands.

Heck, by then I may be able to hunt Goblins in Ashenvale, too!
waitwat?

[Cessily]

I never heard of anyone quiting the game over being ganked...maybe hating the other faction and calling for help more, but quiting?

Honestly I don't see camping much anymore really. Is it a new sense of honor? If they aren't 80, they arent a fair fight, so I won't attack them?



Sense of honor? lulz~

People don't camp because flying mounts make it all too easy to escape corpse camping. I, for one, will camp some people if they don't own flying mounts. That's how I was raised, and that's how I do my part in this vicious cycle of hate.

[Derathenus]

Well my lvl 30 mage hasnt been camped...once.

Ive been killed afew times by a passing allaince, I then ressed in front of him, he knew I was there, and he rode off on his ram..

This happened yesterday in Thousand Needles.

[Härken]

I pay 15$ a month to kill and piss off other people paying 15$ a month.

[Derathenus]

I've always been neutral..

If someone attacks me, ill attack them, i don't mount and run, flying off.

Unless a friend is being attacked..then i will attack. Like around the Dun Niffelum area..lots of fun battles there. And when im in that mood I usually do shoot first..weird.

Only time I've ever attacked first was when I was farming oozes in EPLs...needless to say, the person called in help, and me and my friend called in ours, and a battle erupted, but apparently they didnt want to pvp after it was an even fight, so they went behind the argent dawn guards, knowing if they were attacked we would die first...waiting for us to go away so they could farm..meh.

[Rethius]

I kill people that camp lowbies.

I am the lawman of TN... and this....

http://i36.tinypic.com/10ns5d1.jpg

This is my night stick.

[Härken]

Gotta love rethius lol

[Watcher Tolwe]

Well hey dewe Wet'ius. You seein' da wawchief anywhewe?

[Jeedup]

*cough* WoW wasn't intended to be a PvP game, so Blizzard is still fixing their mistakes of implimenting it without too much thought *cough*

[Yatokth]

*cough* WoW wasn't intended to be a PvP game, so Blizzard is still fixing their mistakes of implimenting it without too much thought *cough*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Necroxis]

*cough* WoW wasn't intended to be a PvP game, so Blizzard is still fixing their mistakes of implimenting it without too much thought *cough*

Pretty much this. The only thing released with classic WoW was world pvp.

Oh and ridiculous thread is ridiculous.

[Yatokth]

Pretty much this. The only thing released with classic WoW was world pvp.

Oh and ridiculous thread is ridiculous.

Which is what this whole thread has been about.

[Necroxis]

Which is what this whole thread has been about.

Doesn't mean its not ridiculous.

[Rand_Shea]

I never heard of anyone quiting the game over being ganked...maybe hating the other faction and calling for help more, but quiting?

I have. No one from this server, though.

I had a friend who had someone, for whatever reason, decide that they hated her and were pretty much stalking her in game by dualboxing 2 accounts to track where she was and then go there and camp her. Pretty much every day she logged on the guy was online and immediately went to where she was to the point where she couldn't quest, couldn't level, and couldn't do anything except hide as best she could inside buildings until she got fed up and logged off.

She finally reported the guy and got him temp banned on his horde account (she played Alliance on another pvp server), but then he used his tracking one to send her threats and harrassment PMs. Everytime she ignored one of his characters he rerolled another until she finally got that account temp banned too.

Pretty sure that guy had a "PVP FUCK OFF AND GET OVER IT" mentality, too, but pvp to him was picking on someone who's highest level char at the time was 40.

She did end up transferring off the pvp server to go to a normal one.

So, yeah, pvp on a pvp server and all that jazz, but pvp being used as a convenient excuse to be a douchebag and make someone else miserable is sad and pathetic. Yes, that guy was an extreme case, but it does happen.

[Yatokth]

I have. No one from this server, though.

I had a friend who had someone, for whatever reason, decide that they hated her and were pretty much stalking her in game by dualboxing 2 accounts to track where she was and then go there and camp her. Pretty much every day she logged on the guy was online and immediately went to where she was to the point where she couldn't quest, couldn't level, and couldn't do anything except hide as best she could inside buildings until she got fed up and logged off.

She finally reported the guy and got him temp banned on his horde account (she played Alliance on another pvp server), but then he used his tracking one to send her threats and harrassment PMs. Everytime she ignored one of his characters he rerolled another until she finally got that account temp banned too.

Pretty sure that guy had a "PVP FUCK OFF AND GET OVER IT" mentality, too, but pvp to him was picking on someone who's highest level char at the time was 40.

She did end up transferring off the pvp server to go to a normal one.

So, yeah, pvp on a pvp server and all that jazz, but pvp being used as a convenient excuse to be a douchebag and make someone else miserable is sad and pathetic. Yes, that guy was an extreme case, but it does happen.

That's stalking, not PvP.

[Trigin]

That's stalking, not PvP.

I have to agree that is taking it alittle to far =/

[Irontoe]

I camped a level 35 nelf hunter for 45 minutes yesterday after she /spit on me. At the 20 minute mark, she logged to a level 1 alt to tell me I had no life, and I told her that I was deeply offended by her emote, and that she can't go through life being rude to random strangers.

It took most of my time in the game.

[Yatokth]

I camped a level 35 nelf hunter for 45 minutes yesterday after she /spit on me. At the 20 minute mark, she logged to a level 1 alt to tell me I had no life, and I told her that I was deeply offended by her emote, and that she can't go through life being rude to random strangers.

It took most of my time in the game.

She should call a friend(s) or report you if she has an issue.

[Irontoe]

She should call a friend(s) or report you if she has an issue.

True that, but I'm surprised you didn't comment on the hypocrisy of my stated reason for killing her.

[Derathenus]

Irontoe so you did go horde?!

Server isn't just aint the same without your old guild...You should have installed a puppet leader of Fordragon Imports, got them to "lead it" while you actually called the real shots(no pun intented)

Joking of coarse...:)

[Yatokth]

True that, but I'm surprised you didn't comment on the hypocrisy of my stated reason for killing her.

I already assumed you were being a facetious asshole, cause everything you do tends to prove that.

(DON'T DEET ME IT'S THE TRUTH)

[Irontoe]

IT'S THE TRUTH

When has that ever stayed a mod's hand?

[Yatokth]

When has that ever stayed a mod's hand?

Point.

[Derathenus]

oO

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about now..rofl...

[Keldorin]

2 cents.

PvP on a pvp server should indeed be expected, you should never run around thinking that it is wrong for someone to gank you or camp you or do any such PvP related action towards you if you are on their server. That is just how it works.

In saying this, I will also say that there is a fine line between engaging in the PvP portion of the game on a PvP server or otherwise and blatantly disrespecting another person. I.E. what Rand Shea mentioned is a decent example. In that case, getting ganked or camped isn't its usual hill or bump but rather a brick wall with no way around it.

PvP is good, someone not being able to play their game because of it, that is bad.

I will agree though that if a player is unprepared to deal with PvP and the situations it brings to the table should not be on a PvP server.

[Fhenrir]

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about now..rofl...

It's best not to read too deeply into anything either of them says.

[Skaadvik]

I camped a level 35 nelf hunter for 45 minutes yesterday after she /spit on me. At the 20 minute mark, she logged to a level 1 alt to tell me I had no life, and I told her that I was deeply offended by her emote, and that she can't go through life being rude to random strangers.

It took most of my time in the game.

She did it wrong. /spit, make you chase me until I'm OOM, then get up and go make dinner.

[Jeedup]

Yes, all WoW got for PvP when it was released, and until battlegrounds were implimented, was World PvP.

And honestly, there isn't a thing you can do to ruin OR heighten World PvP.

Whats World PvP? Oh, your going along, riding your pretty new kodo, smiling at a beautiful day in Highlands when...BAM! SQUASH! GROIN KICK!

A rogue just smothered you with his crotch leavings after rather embarrassingly creaming your hide in front of a low-level toon who stood there flabergasted as to what just happened.

Thats pretty much World PvP. Except substitute whatever class and whatever circumstance you want. And I still say there really isn't a single change they can do for or against World PvP. New queing system? Okay, that means raiders and people trying to instance won't be as easily visable in certain areas. Does this matter? Most likely raiders (like myself) are rather retarded at PvP (like myself, but oh do I try!), and why would that be much of a fight anyways? Are we forgettting people farming mats for the AH, or just randomly running around doing whatever? Seriously doubt thats going to change much at all.

Arenas and Battlegrounds don't do anything for or against PvP either, if anything, they can be rather hindering. If one group has amazing leet ratings, and another just goes about doing whatever, starting PvP where they can, the one with the rating will only (generally speaking) have one advantage: Gear. So, a highly unbalanced fight can be well, boring. I like to actually have to fight to win in PvP than just automatically knowing I'm going to win, or lose. How else can you get gear? Well, PvE content, and that again, doesn't really have much bearing on World PvP, EXCEPT...HAVING MORE AREAS TO GANK! YIPPIE FOR YOU!

I think I'm done ranting now.

[Yatokth]

Yes, all WoW got for PvP when it was released, and until battlegrounds were implimented, was World PvP.

And honestly, there isn't a thing you can do to ruin OR heighten World PvP.

Whats World PvP? Oh, your going along, riding your pretty new kodo, smiling at a beautiful day in Highlands when...BAM! SQUASH! GROIN KICK!

A rogue just smothered you with his crotch leavings after rather embarrassingly creaming your hide in front of a low-level toon who stood there flabergasted as to what just happened.

Thats pretty much World PvP. Except substitute whatever class and whatever circumstance you want. And I still say there really isn't a single change they can do for or against World PvP. New queing system? Okay, that means raiders and people trying to instance won't be as easily visable in certain areas. Does this matter? Most likely raiders (like myself) are rather retarded at PvP (like myself, but oh do I try!), and why would that be much of a fight anyways? Are we forgettting people farming mats for the AH, or just randomly running around doing whatever? Seriously doubt thats going to change much at all.

Arenas and Battlegrounds don't do anything for or against PvP either, if anything, they can be rather hindering. If one group has amazing leet ratings, and another just goes about doing whatever, starting PvP where they can, the one with the rating will only (generally speaking) have one advantage: Gear. So, a highly unbalanced fight can be well, boring. I like to actually have to fight to win in PvP than just automatically knowing I'm going to win, or lose. How else can you get gear? Well, PvE content, and that again, doesn't really have much bearing on World PvP, EXCEPT...HAVING MORE AREAS TO GANK! YIPPIE FOR YOU!

I think I'm done ranting now.

Ah yes, the old "World PvP is JUST GANKING AND THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO IT" argument that is simply bullshit because it's, well, bullshit.

World PvP happens anywhere in the world, with any amount of people, whether the opponent is willing or unwilling, whether they're kicking the bucket in Dragonblight, Stormwind, or Undercity.

Facilitating good World PvP means having the authentic environment of the opponent being in danger whenever they are in a contested zone, which is being moved away from with portals straight to instances, sanctuaries like Dalaran, and flying mounts to make travel safer.

Your only other argument is that "oh well fighting people who don't know how to do it isn't much of a fight" and that might be true, but the fact that they HAVE to fight means they either deal with getting stomped, or get better. Authentic environment.

And don't give me the crap that PvE gear isn't good fpr PvP. PvE geared anyone with any amount of CC can shred me pretty quick if they have a reaction time. I can also shred them, and such is the tradeoff, but PvE gear doesn't auto-lose you in PvP.

If you're a rogue, it's a god damned advantage too.

Also note that if you're near a 25 man raid zone, the gankers will likely not outnumber the raiders, and more often than not, it goes the other way.

World PvP is inherently unfair, that's part of the beauty of it.

[Skaadvik]

The unfairness of world PvP has never once upset me. Some days I lead a raid into Undercity and we get horrifically outnumbered/outclassed and camped all across Tirisfal and Silverpine. Other days Dan and I go into Uncercity alone and shit on people for hours.

As far as nothing they can do to change world PvP, that's simply not true. The permaflag for 80s everyone has been mentioning would be a godsend to people who rolled on this server because they DID want to PvP. It would also do good for anyone who was not good at PvP or did not like it. Just like I stopped playing on non-PvP non-RP servers for the glory that is RP/PvP, people will either adapt and become better at PvP (a good thing) or realize that they're not on the right server.

I understand that people might have vested interests in this server that are not at all to do with PvP, and may even hate it, but I'll be honest, that doesn't concern me in the least.

Hell, to be honest, if they made a NEW server that had hardcore PvP rules I would go join it, too.

[Vyn]

The unfairness of world PvP has never once upset me because I play a paladin.

That's what I read, I swear.

[Yatokth]

The unfairness of world PvP has never once upset me. Some days I lead a raid into Undercity and we get horrifically outnumbered/outclassed and camped all across Tirisfal and Silverpine. Other days Dan and I go into Uncercity alone and shit on people for hours.

As far as nothing they can do to change world PvP, that's simply not true. The permaflag for 80s everyone has been mentioning would be a godsend to people who rolled on this server because they DID want to PvP. It would also do good for anyone who was not good at PvP or did not like it. Just like I stopped playing on non-PvP non-RP servers for the glory that is RP/PvP, people will either adapt and become better at PvP (a good thing) or realize that they're not on the right server.

I understand that people might have vested interests in this server that are not at all to do with PvP, and may even hate it, but I'll be honest, that doesn't concern me in the least.

Hell, to be honest, if they made a NEW server that had hardcore PvP rules I would go join it, too.

I'd reroll.

Hell, I'd make all of Raven Cross reroll.

[Jeedup]

Sorry but, in its simplist forms, World PvP is just ganking. So saying that the statement is 'bullshit', only shows you don't have much to say in regards.

Either you gank in large numbers, or in attempts to retake a town, thats all that it is.

Now, did I say this was bad? Hell, on any given night of boredom, I'll camp a random town that has no one in it with the hopes of attracting some fun. Or I just wander idly by constantly destroying the same NPC over and over. I frequent Hinterlands for this purpose mostly (lol Hill Dwarf Faction Leader wut?)

Oh, and I didn't mention that PvE gear wasn't good for PvP. I've been able to take one or two down in a lopsided fight (sometimes against me) in others in marginally well off PvP gear. Raiders hit like Mack Trucks loaded with dynamite, but fold like a house of cards.

[Yatokth]

Sorry but, in its simplist forms, World PvP is just ganking. So saying that the statement is 'bullshit', only shows you don't have much to say in regards.

Either you gank in large numbers, or in attempts to retake a town, thats all that it is.

Now, did I say this was bad? Hell, on any given night of boredom, I'll camp a random town that has no one in it with the hopes of attracting some fun. Or I just wander idly by constantly destroying the same NPC over and over. I frequent Hinterlands for this purpose mostly (lol Hill Dwarf Faction Leader wut?)

Oh, and I didn't mention that PvE gear wasn't good for PvP. I've been able to take one or two down in a lopsided fight (sometimes against me) in others in marginally well off PvP gear. Raiders hit like Mack Trucks loaded with dynamite, but fold like a house of cards.

Now you're just arguing semantics, ganking is a term originally reserved for attacking a player while they're in combat with mobs, now it's been basically turned into any unfair fight, which yeah, under that definition, all World PvP is 'ganking', but attack and defense is really what happens, especially on town-based World PvP.

You also completely ignored the part where I refuted your argument with how the game affects World PvP and its environment.

[Fhenrir]

Sorry but, in its simplist forms, World PvP is just ganking. So saying that the statement is 'bullshit', only shows you don't have much to say in regards.

I think the definition of world PvP isn't what you two are debating with this, but the definition of ganking. In my experiences, there is a lot more to world PvP than "ganking", as my definition of ganking is to run up and beat their face in with little to no provocation. World PvP can take a lot of forms outside of this, like world boss competition, loot/quest/node spawns, and town or city attack and defense. In the strictest of terms, ganking doesn't fall into any of those categories except for maybe the briefest of beginnings.

Perhaps ganking will lead to world PvP, but the PvP I most relish is when that dude who got killed goes "/g Hey, this asshole just killed me up on the Elemental Plateau. Anyone wanna come wreck this chump?" Follow that up with an hour of clashes back and forth and you have some fantastic world PvP. The argument could be made that all world PvP spawns as a result of ganking, but I'd be hesitant to even agree with that.


Edit: Yat posted it faster and in a much less verbose way. In any case, lemme mod hat here real quick and remind both of you gents that, when discussing opinion, there is no correct or incorrect. Try to remember when phrasing your side of it that what both of you have presented is opinion-based.

[Jeedup]

Ah yes, the old "World PvP is JUST GANKING AND THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO IT" argument that is simply bullshit because it's, well, bullshit.

World PvP happens anywhere in the world, with any amount of people, whether the opponent is willing or unwilling, whether they're kicking the bucket in Dragonblight, Stormwind, or Undercity.

Facilitating good World PvP means having the authentic environment of the opponent being in danger whenever they are in a contested zone, which is being moved away from with portals straight to instances, sanctuaries like Dalaran, and flying mounts to make travel safer.

The term 'ganking' aside as any form of definition, I don't see you really countering what I said here. Okay, portals, sanctuary cities and flying mounts may, what it seems in your view, be something that seems to be hindering or 'moving away from' good world PvP, I don't really think this is even legit. Flying mounts? What, wouldn't those actually help world pvp? Lowbies getting ganked that don't have one, and people come swooping in on mounts to help, sounds like a bonus to pvp to me. As well as being rather ingenious about it, and yes, I mean Tenj. Though, I can see, in some small way, its a hinderance. Someone can get away from a good smack down and has the time to disenage and get that quick summons off, they're long gone by the time you can too. But, well, thats actually more a fair tactic if anything. If one side says "Screw this, I'm out of here", retreat is a fair option. Hell, I wish I actually COULD get the chance to do that time and again. Usually when my attempts at gankage fail horribly.

Sanctuary Cities though? Don't really see a for or against arguement here, thats more a designing implimentation. Gotta have somewhere to go really, but, I've often seen craftful attacks placed at the outskirts of Shattrath and now Dalaran. Oh crap, theres a reference to Tenj again. I might dislike getting ganked by that guy, even though lately I've been able to survive them, but he's a stonehard example of how no implimentation with the possiblity to destroy world pvp just provides people with the chance to put on their thinking caps and get creative.


Your only other argument is that "oh well fighting people who don't know how to do it isn't much of a fight" and that might be true, but the fact that they HAVE to fight means they either deal with getting stomped, or get better. Authentic environment.

I agree with you here, as I often really hate being on both sides, like I mentioned. Though, I've noticed that showing an overwhelming pressence can destroy the potential of good fights (ie-people saying fuck it and run), or being on the other side and being forced to, well, say fuck it and run. This leads to thinking you've got a good battle running, then wondering where the hell everyone ran off to.


If you're a rogue, it's a god damned advantage too.

/gagtorogues


Also note that if you're near a 25 man raid zone, the gankers will likely not outnumber the raiders, and more often than not, it goes the other way.

World PvP is inherently unfair, that's part of the beauty of it.

Instance portal fights are some of my favorite, or one of major annoyance to me. Especially in 25 man raids, you'll more likely to see raiding guild vs. raiding guild than one group of PvPers deciding to take snap shots. I've had to deal with people putting a raid on hold for 30 mins to fight against First Legion or other raiding guilds who may have actually started the fight my just accidentally auto-attacking a healer, which lead to a full on, no end in sight, back alley style brawl. THATS PvP.

World PvP just happens in the world. I still stand by that there isnt anything Blizzard can do for, or against it. Wintergrasp? Thats not world PvP, thats just a battleground you don't have to que up for. Theres so many sections of that rather well designed area that no one bothers to fight for. And the few that do can often lead to lopsided fights or just digging your wheels in the mud. People just go through the motions. Now...if they added some zest into taking over a town, like say, re-vamping Halaa, now THAT was world PvP. Kill some guards, people show up, kill the people, lost the town, re-take the town, kill off people trying to retake it, over and over again, but with more features to get people more involded. That was probably the only thing I liked about Warhammer, it's whole basis was PvP, but in ways to make World PvP not so dwindling.

Those are mah views anyways.

[Yatokth]

The term 'ganking' aside as any form of definition, I don't see you really countering what I said here. Okay, portals, sanctuary cities and flying mounts may, what it seems in your view, be something that seems to be hindering or 'moving away from' good world PvP, I don't really think this is even legit. Flying mounts? What, wouldn't those actually help world pvp? Lowbies getting ganked that don't have one, and people come swooping in on mounts to help, sounds like a bonus to pvp to me. As well as being rather ingenious about it, and yes, I mean Tenj. Though, I can see, in some small way, its a hinderance. Someone can get away from a good smack down and has the time to disenage and get that quick summons off, they're long gone by the time you can too. But, well, thats actually more a fair tactic if anything. If one side says "Screw this, I'm out of here", retreat is a fair option. Hell, I wish I actually COULD get the chance to do that time and again. Usually when my attempts at gankage fail horribly.

Sanctuary Cities though? Don't really see a for or against arguement here, thats more a designing implimentation. Gotta have somewhere to go really, but, I've often seen craftful attacks placed at the outskirts of Shattrath and now Dalaran. Oh crap, theres a reference to Tenj again. I might dislike getting ganked by that guy, even though lately I've been able to survive them, but he's a stonehard example of how no implimentation with the possiblity to destroy world pvp just provides people with the chance to put on their thinking caps and get creative.



I agree with you here, as I often really hate being on both sides, like I mentioned. Though, I've noticed that showing an overwhelming pressence can destroy the potential of good fights (ie-people saying fuck it and run), or being on the other side and being forced to, well, say fuck it and run. This leads to thinking you've got a good battle running, then wondering where the hell everyone ran off to.



/gagtorogues



Instance portal fights are some of my favorite, or one of major annoyance to me. Especially in 25 man raids, you'll more likely to see raiding guild vs. raiding guild than one group of PvPers deciding to take snap shots. I've had to deal with people putting a raid on hold for 30 mins to fight against First Legion or other raiding guilds who may have actually started the fight my just accidentally auto-attacking a healer, which lead to a full on, no end in sight, back alley style brawl. THATS PvP.

World PvP just happens in the world. I still stand by that there isnt anything Blizzard can do for, or against it. Wintergrasp? Thats not world PvP, thats just a battleground you don't have to que up for. Theres so many sections of that rather well designed area that no one bothers to fight for. And the few that do can often lead to lopsided fights or just digging your wheels in the mud. People just go through the motions. Now...if they added some zest into taking over a town, like say, re-vamping Halaa, now THAT was world PvP. Kill some guards, people show up, kill the people, lost the town, re-take the town, kill off people trying to retake it, over and over again, but with more features to get people more involded. That was probably the only thing I liked about Warhammer, it's whole basis was PvP, but in ways to make World PvP not so dwindling.

Those are mah views anyways.

Wait so you don't classify instance PvP as World PvP? That falls under the category imo.

And flying mounts allow people to travel safely, and yeah, Tenj is creative (and actually I think he's hilarious, even when he gets me) but still, the fact that whenever you are traveling you are nearly invulnerable (they're changing the mount knockback as well, another step away) means alot, because alot of old style World PvP could happen while moving somewhere, to a raid, or just a quest.

And after you kill someone, they can just rez and flying mount and just chill, nothing you can do. With normal mounts, you had to give chase, they had to lose you, etc..

Sanctuary cities aren't too big a deal, but the thing is, it gives people a place to do all their normal activities that is impenetrable, whereas in vanilla WoW, if someone was in your city, well shit, you defend it, OR go to another one.

Nowhere was truly "safe" from EVERYTHING, whereas Sanctuaries ARE safe from EVERYTHING, while you're inside them.

[Swerto]

I wouldn't mind sanctuary cities if they just made it so guards in those areas would one shot anyone (like lights hope chapel) if they tried to start combat.

[Rand_Shea]

That's stalking, not PvP.

Very true, but that wasn't my point.

My point was that there are cases where people have had the game made not fun by people using pvp as an excuse to be royal dickheads, and thus chasing people away who otherwise would have had fun and wanted to participate. Not everyone who complains about pvp on pvp servers is a 'crybaby' or otherwise a 'pussy' that can't handle it... In some cases, like my friend's, someone took it WAY too far.

Also, I'll point out, that cases like that are not uncommon. On Darkspear in particular, cases like that are very commonplace.

[Yatokth]

Very true, but that wasn't my point.

My point was that there are cases where people have had the game made not fun by people using pvp as an excuse to be royal dickheads, and thus chasing people away who otherwise would have had fun and wanted to participate. Not everyone who complains about pvp on pvp servers is a 'crybaby' or otherwise a 'pussy' that can't handle it... In some cases, like my friend's, someone took it WAY too far.

Also, I'll point out, that cases like that are not uncommon. On Darkspear in particular, cases like that are very commonplace.

Well I agree, stupid people are stupid, but that doesn't mean PvP on a PvP server is anything to cry about when it's legitimate.

[Ryoku]

Very true, but that wasn't my point.

My point was that there are cases where people have had the game made not fun by people using pvp as an excuse to be royal dickheads, and thus chasing people away who otherwise would have had fun and wanted to participate. Not everyone who complains about pvp on pvp servers is a 'crybaby' or otherwise a 'pussy' that can't handle it... In some cases, like my friend's, someone took it WAY too far.

Also, I'll point out, that cases like that are not uncommon. On Darkspear in particular, cases like that are very commonplace.

I don't think it's very commonplace at all. Rarely do I hear about people "stalking" another to kill them in harassment. Most "PvP happens" instances I've seen have been with complete strangers.

In fact, only once has someone completely gone out of their way to camp and harass me due to personal vendetta (and actually, the first person overall).

But he was just mad cuz bad.

However, my point is, it's poor taste to allow the actions of a few outstanding dickheads bring consequence on a whole community, yet it is sad how often it really happens, even disregarding WoW.

[Skaadvik]

Very true, but that wasn't my point.

My point was that there are cases where people have had the game made not fun by people using pvp as an excuse to be royal dickheads, and thus chasing people away who otherwise would have had fun and wanted to participate. Not everyone who complains about pvp on pvp servers is a 'crybaby' or otherwise a 'pussy' that can't handle it... In some cases, like my friend's, someone took it WAY too far.

Also, I'll point out, that cases like that are not uncommon. On Darkspear in particular, cases like that are very commonplace.

That person is obviously an asshole. This is also anecdotal, and hardly represents the vast majority of PvPers.

[Vyn]

Heehee. I run around flagged on my little level 15 warrior out in Westfall. Horde run past me, turn around and take a double take, then proceed to kill me.

But really, if I weren't flagged, it may save me a death or two, but the experience isn't authentic. I smile when I die in old world content, especially to same level PvP.

And then I beat the other person's ass when they return to their questing and camp them for the next three rezzes. Gotta start that hatred young, IMO.

[Kredorian]

I say, when someone takes it too far... you call in some help and turn it around. Some 80's ( me) love to come help people who say " OMG this doucher has been camping me for like 20 mins. Then I come, and even if I lose ( rarely if the person is camping a lowbie) I at least take the attention off the lowbie and if it annoys me I call in douchers like Skaadvik and we camp him until our booze runs dry or it erupts into an orgy of awesome.

*Edit - In fact, some of my most fun has come after someone got LOLMAD at being ganked and I went to help and then they brought friends and I brought friends ( Usually Skaad because I ama douche and NOBODY LIKEZ MEH)

[Szordrin]

You know, the best area Blizzard designed for World PVP was Hillsbrad Foothills. First area where both Alliance and Horde are together in a short, straight shot distance. You could argue that you have that in Stonetalon but its very easy to hide in the terrain as someone passes. Hillsbrad always has a place in my heart because I remeber years ago when I was on Bleeding Hollow as a dwarf priest. I was like, level 28 or so and there would be 40 man raids amassing at each town before going to head to head combat in the middle. That, to me, is good world pvp. Of course, there can be skirmishes or battles and the like.

But, I dont really see the corrolation between Ganking and World PVP at all. I gank lowbies when I run past them sometimes. An instant kill with Holy Shock is simply not World PVP to me at all. It's just me being a douche.

[Kredorian]

But sometimes... doesnt being a douche just feel... amazing?

I used to, at level 25ish go into Hillsbrad and act like I was protecting the townsfolk by killing the Horde doing their Hillsbrad Fields quests... using the NPC's to help of course, back when NPC's were actually tougher... and it was glorious... until a high level came and had their way with me, which in the end, was oh so satisfying.

[Vyn]

Oh yes, "back in the day." A certain Phoe and I did this for three hours last night.

I remember epic world PvP battles that crashed the servers, usually in Duskwood when that EPIC DRAGON OF DOOM spawned and EVERY SINGLE GUILD was there to fight it. That was some good world PvP.

Or the completely unbalanced PvP gankfest that was STV. Or ANY leveling PvP.

(STV PvP is still completely unbalanced, actually, but back then it was fun)

[Szordrin]

STV, in my opinion was the best suited place to introduce world PVP to lower levels. Granted, alot of that were level 60's bored and wanting to dick around with lower levelers but nonetheless, it's good to prepare beginners for the onslaught they were heading toward.

[Jeedup]

STV, in my opinion was the best suited place to introduce world PVP to lower levels. Granted, alot of that were level 60's bored and wanting to dick around with lower levelers but nonetheless, it's good to prepare beginners for the onslaught they were heading toward.

This.

[Baisez]

I camp people when they kill my priest more than once. THE END.

[Skaadvik]

But sometimes... doesnt being a douche just feel... amazing?

I used to, at level 25ish go into Hillsbrad and act like I was protecting the townsfolk by killing the Horde doing their Hillsbrad Fields quests... using the NPC's to help of course, back when NPC's were actually tougher... and it was glorious... until a high level came and had their way with me, which in the end, was oh so satisfying.

lol I still do this sometimes

[Lysimachus]

I camp people when they kill my priest more than once. THE END.

Babbiest, I camp YOU.

[Szordrin]

Hot..

[Talarian]

I say, when someone takes it too far... you call in some help and turn it around. Some 80's ( me) love to come help people who say "OMG this doucher has been camping me for like 20 mins."

Probably unbeknownst to him, Cavanaugh has saved my lowbie-ass at least 6 times on 3 different characters. Sadly enough, my greatest PvP thrills have been watching super-crappy PvPer's (who only are skilled enough to camp on lowbies) run from him like devoutly Christian mothers from a porn convention. One of these days I swear - I SWEAR - I will get beyond level 50 and be worth something. Maybe.

[Rand_Shea]

Probably unbeknownst to him, Cavanaugh has saved my lowbie-ass at least 6 times on 3 different characters. Sadly enough, my greatest PvP thrills have been watching super-crappy PvPer's (who only are skilled enough to camp on lowbies) run from him like devoutly Christian mothers from a porn convention. One of these days I swear - I SWEAR - I will get beyond level 50 and be worth something. Maybe.

Your greatest thrill in pvp will be finding one of those asshats that did that to you leveling and then using your weapon of choice to have carnal relations with their behinds.

Did that on my paladin to a putzy gnome warlock that thought it was funny to be twinked out and camp my shaman while I was leveling... He was camping yet more lower level horde trying to quest and I mace raped his face off after having said carnal relations with his rear end with that same mace.

[Gorvena]

run from him like devoutly Christian mothers from a porn convention.
Ok, I lol'd