PvP Racial Discussion

[Gorymoru]

So. I'm sure those that have been on vent with me have occassionally heard me vent about how I find (generally) that Alliance racials>Horde from a PvP standpoint.

Humans - free trinket. Stealth detection increase.

Night elves - free vanish, stealth level increase

dwarves - immunity to bleeds, poisons...[insert rest here dwarf players]

Draenei - self healz lulz?

gnomes - Not necessarily a racial...but they is itty bitteh. Cannot freakin' target. ((in a sea of people, I mean. I can click target the bastards...))



Orcs - decreased stun duration

trolls - increased health regen (Since when has this turned the tide of battle?) and whatever da voodoo shuffle does.

Forsaken - release from charm, fear, and sleep ONLY (/= human racial)

Blood Elf - silence and mana/rage/energy/RP. ((This is the only damn good one that even pars up to the alliance racials))

Tauren - stun that has cast time. Fail. increased stam or some shit.

Discuss.

[Broxigan]

Dwarf

* Stoneform : Activate to remove poison, disease, and bleed effects; +10% Armor; Lasts 8 seconds. 2 minute cooldown. [From what I can recall, this removes the poison/disease/bleed instantly, but doesn't make you immune anymore.]

* Gun Specialization : increases chance to critically hit with Guns by 1%.

* Mace Specialization : Increases expertise with maces and two-handed maces by 5.

* Frost Resistance : Reduces the chance you will be hit by Frost spells by 2%.

Gnome

* Escape Artist : Escape the effects of any immobilization or movement speed reduction effect. Instant cast. 1 min, 45 sec cooldown as of Patch 2.3 (was 1 min).

* Expansive Mind : Increase Intellect by 5%.

* Arcane Resistance : Reduces the chance you will be hit by Arcane spells by 2%.


Human

* Every Man for Himself : Removes all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character. This effect shares a cooldown with other similar effects, 2 minute cooldown.

* Perception : Increases your Stealth detection, passive.

* The Human Spirit : Increase spirit by 3%.

* Mace Specialization : Increases expertise with maces and two-handed maces by 3.

* Sword Specialization : Increases expertise with swords and two-handed swords by 3.

Night elf

* Shadowmeld : Activate to slip into the shadows, reducing the chance for enemies to detect your presence. Lasts until cancelled or upon moving. Any threat is restored versus enemies still in combat upon cancellation of this effect, 2 minute cooldown.

* Quickness : Reduces the chance that melee and ranged attackers will hit you by 2%.

* Elusivesness: Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while Shadowmelded or Stealthed.

* Nature Resistance : Reduces the chance you will be hit by Nature spells by 2%.

Draenei

* Gift of the Naaru : Heals the target of X damage over 15sec. The amount healed is increased based on the caster's Spell Power or Attack Power, whichever is higher. 3 minute cooldown. [This can be seriously OP depending on your SP or AP. I have seen reports of 1k ticks, which coupled with a warrior with herbalism heal and the warrior skill that converts rage to health...]

* Heroic Presence : Increases chance to hit with all spells and attacks by 1% for you and all party members within 30 yards.

* Shadow Resistance : Reduces the chance you will be hit by Shadow spells by 2%.






Orc

* Blood Fury : Activate to increase attack power and spell damage/healing by an amount based on level/class for 15 seconds. 2 minute cooldown.

* Hardiness : Reduces duration of stun effects by 15%. [Very nice!]

* Command : Damage done by Death Knight, Hunter, Shaman and Warlock pets increased by 5%.

* Axe Specialization : Expertise with Fist Weapons, One- and Two-handed Axes increased by 5.

Tauren

* War Stomp : Activate to stun opponents - Stuns up to 5 enemies within 8 yards for 2 seconds. 2 minute cooldown. [AOE stun. Woo!]

* Endurance : Base hitpoints increased by 5%.

* Nature Resistance : Reduces the chance you will be hit by Nature spells by 2%.

Troll

* Berserking : Activate to increase attack and casting speed by 20% for 10 seconds. Changed in 3.2 from: (Speed is raised by 10% at full health, increasing as health is lost to a maximum bonus of 30%.) 3 minute cooldown.

* Regeneration : Increase health regeneration bonus by 10%. Also allows 10% of normal health regen during combat.

* Bow Specialization : Increase Bow critical strike chance by 1%.

* Da Voodoo Shuffle : Reduces the duration of all movement impairing effects by 15%. Trolls be flippin' out mon!

Forsaken

* Will of the Forsaken : Removes any Charm, Fear and Sleep effect. 2 minute cooldown.

* Cannibalize : When activated, regenerates 7% of total health every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Only works on Humanoid or Undead corpses within 5 yards. Any movement, action, or damage taken while Cannibalizing will cancel the effect.

* Underwater Breathing : Underwater breath lasts 233% longer than normal.

* Shadow Resistance : Reduces the chance you will be hit by Shadow spells by 2%.

Blood elf

* Arcane Torrent : Activate to silence all enemies within 8 yards for 2 seconds. In addition, you gain 15 Energy, 15 Runic Power or 6% Mana. 2 min. cooldown.

* Arcane Affinity : 10 point skill bonus to Enchanting (note, this also raises the cap by 10 at each level of enchanting).

* Magic Resistance : Reduces the chance you will be hit by spells by 2%.


A bit more of an expansive 'PVP' set of Racials including resistances and decreses in things like stun.

Could someone fill me in on "hit" and "expertise" in PVP? Does it make a HUGE difference?

[Fhenrir]

A couple important things to note about the racials.

Firstly, WotF is not aptly comparable to the human racial as is. The racial is being nerfed next patch, but as is it allows breakage of those things outside of the regular trinket cooldown (at least to my current understanding of its functionality). My understanding of the incoming nerf is that it will share cooldown with trinket, thus severely crippling its effectiveness.

Orcs have a poppable +AP/spellpower racial that is akin to having an extra usable DPS trinket, as well as axe specialization for melee. Both are pretty snazzy.

Blood elves have a 2% chance to be missed by magic. Very noteworthy along with AT.

Gnomes have Escape Artist, which allows them to dispel a root or snare. Used to be a lot more useful due to arena functionality and class mechanics. Still has situational usefulness for melee classes.

Da Voodoo Shuffle reduces movement impairing effect duration by 15%. Not bad, but trolls still pretty much suck for PvP anyway. They've also got a free haste trinket in the form of Berserking.


Edit: Suppose Brox got me covered. And yes, hit and expertise are both valuable stats in PvP.

[Yichimet]

It's funny that it worked out that way because for so long Alliance players thought Horde racials were the SHIT (and they generally were, comparatively). I'm excited to see Cataclysm's racial re-shuffling to match up with the awesome that are the goblin racials.

[Irontoe]

dwarves - immunity to bleeds, poisons...[insert rest here dwarf players]

It's not an immunity, it's an instant dispel with no duration. DKs and rogues will immediately reapply poisons and diseases naturally.


Draenei - self healz lulz?

It's a very weak heal with a cast time.


gnomes - Not necessarily a racial...but they is itty bitteh. Cannot freakin' target.

I've heard Escape Artist is helpful too.


Orcs - decreased stun duration

Very useful, though obviously not on par with WotF or EMfH.


Forsaken - release from charm, fear, and sleep ONLY (/= human racial)

This is situationally better than the human racial because it doesn't share any cooldown with the trinket. Humans can still only break CC once every two minutes, Forsaken can break CC twice in a row against certain classes.

The blood elf racial is fucking OP, agreed.


Tauren - stun that has cast time. Fail. increased stam or some shit.

Increased health an an AoE stun with a short cast time are both extremely useful in PvP. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Fhenrir]

Increased health an an AoE stun with a short cast time are both extremely useful in PvP. You don't know what you're talking about.

I agree with everything else in your post outright except this part. The stamina was nerfed hard in Wrath (a level 80 tauren warrior receives about 500 extra HP now, which does not change, versus the very powerful scaling it did in BC and previous). Warstomp, while still bringing some situational usefulness, is rarely gamebreaking due to the required cast time + reset of swing timer associated with using it. It's not bad, but nowhere near the top tier PvP racials.

[Gorymoru]

@ irontoe. I wasn't saying increased health and a stun was bad...but the cast time means you can't use it on the run, and it reduces it's effectiveness against mobile or kiting classes. Not saying either is bad...but in COMPARISON, it falls a bit short. And I thought they changed the draenei racial to instant cast?

Edit: Must remember to not take so long to post. Thank you Fhen.

[Chikt]

The Tauren stamina thing sucks, because in PvP I get nothing out of it anymore. It scales with the amount of stamina you have, so the more stam you have = less benefit from the racial.

Warstomp, however, is such a powerful utility, people just underestimate it. As a class with so very few defensive abilities, following up a Fire Nova stun with a War Stomp has saved my ass on many occasions.

[Yatokth]

Remember that Orcs have a free AP trinket, it no longer causes self MS. It's VERY powerful, and there's a reason almost every top tier Warrior on this server (and the vast majority of top tier Warriors that are Horde everywhere, excluding Skymind) is an Orc.

I personally don't like min/max-ing racials, and if I were to abandon Yat as an RP character (something I'm unlikely to do) I'd probably roll Tauren because I think Warstomp is severely underrated.

[Gorymoru]

I think we might be getting away from my point. I'm more focused on Alliance racials vs. Horde. Not the value of each specific racial standing alone in certain scenarios.

FTR, I am pissed that they are changing WotF.

[Yatokth]

I think we might be getting away from my point. I'm more focused on Alliance racials vs. Horde. Not the value of each specific racial standing alone in certain scenarios.

FTR, I am pissed that they are changing WotF.

The two most powerful racials in the game are Every Man for Himself and Arcane Torrent.

WotF was situationally powerful, and had the potential to break certain arena matches and outstrip every other racial in effectiveness, which is why it was nerfed.

It's the same reason they nerfed Stoneform, and it was necessary.

HOW they nerfed it doesn't make sense to me though. Just take fear off it and put on Incapacitate or something.

[Gorymoru]

Well yeah. I can see and have used it's OPness before. The issue I have is giving it the same CD as a trinket/human racial without changing it's design to effect all movement impairing affects.

[Yatokth]

Well yeah. I can see and have used it's OPness before. The issue I have is giving it the same CD as a trinket/human racial without changing it's design to effect all movement impairing affects.

It's actually just a shared 45 sec (not 2 min) CD. It doesn't replace the trinket, they nerfed it to try and stop stringing the two together to break two important CCs in a row.

But now the ability's nearly useless.

[Gorymoru]

Truth. Forsaken Warriors always were a pain in the ass....>.> for a warlock at least.

That's fine, as I planned on re-rolling goblin.

[Jeedup]

Remember that Orcs have a free AP trinket, it no longer causes self MS. It's VERY powerful, and there's a reason almost every top tier Warrior on this server (and the vast majority of top tier Warriors that are Horde everywhere, excluding Skymind) is an Orc.


Not always so, especially since Race Changes. Several Tauren have head this 'title', even a few scant trolls.

But, your most likely talking PvP again, so, bluey-hoo-hahs to that.

[Fhenrir]

It would make sense for "top tier warriors" to be in reference to PvP warriors when in a topic about PvP Racials.

Just saying.

[Gorymoru]

Pwnt.

[Jeedup]

It would make sense for "top tier warriors" to be in reference to PvP warriors when in a topic about PvP Racials.

Just saying.

Shut up, your a poop, and guess what, your Warrior used to be very high in the PvP world on TN, AND HE'S A TAUREN.

Poo on you good sir.

[Chikt]

Shut up, your a poop, and guess what, your Warrior used to be very high in the PvP world on TN, AND HE'S A TAUREN*.

*Before the Tauren racial nerf when you could get amazing amounts of HP from it, and when healers were OP and surviving was more important than damaging in some cases.

Just sayin'.

I think any race/class combo can reach the top, racials don't make or break the climb.

[Yatokth]

*Before the Tauren racial nerf when you could get amazing amounts of HP from it, and when healers were OP and surviving was more important than damaging in some cases.

Just sayin'.

I think any race/class combo can reach the top, racials don't make or break the climb.

This is the truth.

Undead aren't very good Warriors.

But there are Warriors like Skymind and Alloraan who make it work.

Racials mean fuck-all in the long run, but in some situations, they are OP.

[Jeedup]

I dunno, I've had Beserking help me before and after its change a few times. Ya know, back when I had decent pvp gear to help along with it.

And someone to heal me.

Alot.

I pooped alittle.

[Härken]

Im going tauren paladin just for stomp.

[Skaadvik]

Im going tauren paladin just for stomp.

I have been toying with this idea since they made the announcement.

[Härken]

Every man for himself is pretty cool but if i want to get the max out my class im better off with the utility silence from be's or war stomp for mass lolz interrupt

hands down - -2% spell hit chance > minor stalth detection.

+ I have always wanted to be a hulking cow swinging a holy mace the armor model is sick for them

[Chikt]

hands down - -2% spell hit chance > minor stalth detection.

That's VERY arguable.

Chance versus ability? I would take stealth detection over a chance for spells to miss any day.


I have been toying with this idea since they made the announcement.

You and every other person that's already reserved some variation of "Holy Cow" as a name.

[Saulle]

You and every other person that's already reserved some variation of "Holy Cow" as a name.

So I guess "Divine Steak" is out of the question too?

On topic, I have to admit, I've always loved the Orc Berserker ability but loathed the whole "increases damage done, however, increases damage taken" which kind of killed it for me. Since they removed the negative trait about that, I am back to loving that ability. I like cutting things down faster.

Plus, how exactly (game mechanics aside) does something as large as a Tauren avoid being hit by spells?

[Chikt]

Plus, how exactly (game mechanics aside) does something as large as a Tauren avoid being hit by spells?

He was talking about Blood Elf racials, not Tauren racials.

[Saulle]

Right, missed that. Thanks. Lousy anorexic elves.

[Härken]

That's VERY arguable.

Chance versus ability? I would take stealth detection over a chance for spells to miss any day.



You and every other person that's already reserved some variation of "Holy Cow" as a name.

I play a human and the stealth detection is not amazing trust me.

[Chikt]

I play a human and the stealth detection is not amazing trust me.

And I play against human and hear so many rogues Horde side bitch about Humans. :P

[Saulle]

I'd have to agree with Harken on that the stealth detection isn't what it was like circa 3.0. There are abilities in Rogue trees that can effectively negate most of the perception. It's just a matter of taste, I think. Plus, you don't wanna walk TOO close to a human player without those points, otherwise we'd see you even when sapped, target you and then trinket and it becomes a toe to toe fight.

[Härken]

And I play against human and hear so many rogues Horde side bitch about Humans. :P

Arena is balanced bro.

[Irontoe]

There are abilities in Rogue trees that can effectively negate most of the perception.

It can't possibly negate perception. A human will still see a rogue from farther away than any other race at the same level.

[Swerto]

Truth. Forsaken Warriors always were a pain in the ass....>.> for a warlock at least.

Fixed.

I rarely ever use WoTF on my warrior, Berzerkers rage is the only fear break I really need, considering it gives me an immunity for ten seconds on top of the break.

Though, I do like to save Berz for repentence/sap


ALSO, me and yat discussed this heavily.

I would like all racials to be on par with the Blood Elf and Human Racials, in my mind those are the perfect racials that all racials should strive to be. Yat pointed out that the Worgen and Goblin racials seem to be on par with those, and therefore we may be seeing all racials being balanced towards those.

[Skaadvik]

You and every other person that's already reserved some variation of "Holy Cow" as a name.

IM COVERED IN BEES BRO


But seriously... not so much. I have enough characters with silly names (Undead Warrior named Shamble. Consider the cake taken) and I like to RP. If I make a holy cow it will not be named lolholycow or holybonercow as funny as holybonercow would be.


Interesting fact: The name Bonerkickass is not taken and is allowable at least at character creation on this server.

Well, it was not taken until now.

By me.

Surprise cockfags

[Saulle]

It can't possibly negate perception. A human will still see a rogue from farther away than any other race at the same level.

Now you know why I used the keyword "most." :P It still greatly reduces stealth detection though, and that should be the point that counts in what I stated.

[Lailinarel]

To be honest the human racial is actually a little bit over rated. Yes, it's great to free up a trinket slot, but as say... a warrior, the gnome snare break could come in considerably more handy. Especially now with the +stat that's not resil / trinket effect trinkets from WG. Sure you lose a proc or use effect trinket, but you gain an additional snare/root break.

And for the record, any rogue who gets seen by a human and is specced into camo is bad. Straight up. I played a rogue for four years. Trust me on this one.

Lolols I can't walk straight at the guy when he's looking STRAIGHT AT ME wtf op. Sorry that you might have to work to get your openers out... cause it's not like you can't provide any control, an MS/Snare on your auto attacks or reset the fight without an opener...

And if I'm not mistaken the highest represented pallies in arenas last time I checked were belfs.

Something about having an extra interupt / silence to end a match is incredibly powerful, not to mention the fact that it generates more mechanic (mana etc) which helps win the mana war if you're a healer, or provides additional burst as a rogue etc...

WotF as a warrior? Yeah, it's mediocre I suppose. But I can't possibly agree to that statement for most other classes, two back to back CC breaks is difficult to compete with for several reasons, not the least of which being that as soon as you're under the effect of a CC ability, the DR for the next application of it is calculated. If folks can't appreciate how powerful this can be, then they clearly aren't looking at it from any perspective other than that of MOAR BUFFS PLX.

I could go on, but I'm tired and dirty cause I just got out of work.

[Grayslin]

I think the complaint about WotF isn't that it sucks now, but that Blizz putting it on the same cooldown with the PvP trinket is going to make it useless for pvp since the trinket effect is considerably better.

[Swerto]

To be honest the human racial is actually a little bit over rated. Yes, it's great to free up a trinket slot, but as say... a warrior, the gnome snare break could come in considerably more handy. Especially now with the +stat that's not resil / trinket effect trinkets from WG. Sure you lose a proc or use effect trinket, but you gain an additional snare/root break.



Human racial removes snare too. Your point is invalid.

Human and Elf racials are the -BEST- racials in game, I want neither one nerfed... I just want every other race to have racials on par with them.

That free trinket slot is AMAZING, and it's also a trinket when you're in your PvE gear/spec, so it's useful in PvE as well.

That's what both the Elf and Human racials are, useful equally for PvE and PvP.

The elf racial is an AoE silence and 15 rage/energy/RP or 6% mana, in PvE it still at least interrupts everything in that range. This is very useful for melee classes because it gives some classes a second interrupt, and others their only interrupt. It is amazing, a perfect racial that is in no way OP.

The human racial is on par with it, they are balanced perfectly. The human racial shares the same cooldown with the trinket, thus saving it from being OP, but then at the same time it makes it so anyone who equips a PvP break trinket as a human is a moron, the slot should be used for a PvE trinket you would have otherwise sacrificed for the break.


The troll, orc, and tauren racials are pretty close to the level of awesome as those two at this point. They just need tweaking.

The Forsaken racial needs to be dropped and completely revamped.

[Grayslin]

Human racial removes snare too. Your point is invalid.
How so? The gnome racial isn't on the trinket cooldown and makes for a second snare break in addition to the trinket.

[Swerto]

Because as a warrior, you have your snare break: Bladestorm.

Warriors don't get snare kited like rogues, warriors can charge, intercept, hamstring to slow people down to their level, etc. etc.

[Lailinarel]

Bladestorm is a snare break, yes, and a very powerful one at that. With a cooldown. If you've ever fought a good druid you'll know that just a trinket and bladestorm is sometimes not enough. Or a good priest rogue team. It can be extremely tough to stick on a priest if a rogue sits on you. We can toss situational strengths and weaknesses back and forth all day long, but you're saying, If you've got a good pve trinket, you can equip it! And I'm saying, yeah, you can, but you could have an additional root break instead.

All the dps in the world won't save your ass if you're rooted just outside of melee, or sitting in a cyclone with your trinket on CD. So believe it or not, (I DO play a human mind you and the argument that I'm bad not withstanding) there are times where I massively wish that I had other racial abilities.

[Swerto]

I have fought a druid, and if you're letting a druid get away from you, you're bad at snaring.

They shapeshift? Hamstring, they do it again? Hamstring again.

If you're wearing PvP armor (which you really should be) chances are you're at least wearing the gloves, which decrease your already extremely low hamstring cost.

And if you have at least two points in improved hamstring (which you really should) there is a chance to completely stop your opponent, and shape shifting DOESN'T fix that.

A good druid won't keep running from you, because while running they can't do shit.

In my experience when druids run, they're stupid. I have one bit of advice for you: Let. Them. Run.

As long as you don't let them get too far away from you to do anything (outside of charge/intercept range) then you should be close enough to shut them down from being a major force in healing or DPS.

Rogue snare? Hamstring them, now you're even until they sprint, which really doesn't matter. If you're fighting a good rogue you're most likely dead by this point anyways, if you're fighting a bad rogue and they're running from you, you've probably won by this point. Oh and you can always BLAAAAAAAAAAAADESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORMMMMMMMMM.

Mage? Don't ever waste a trinket on a mage slow, back up and hope they're stupid enough to jump into charge/intercept range, you should have macros to switch between both on a moment's notice. Oh, and you can always BLAAAAAAAAAAAADESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORMMMMMMMMM.

Warlock? If they're using their snare they're probably pretty desperate or stupid. Oh, and then you can always BLAAAAAAAAAAAADESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORMMMMMMMMM.

Druid? Hamstring, hamstring, hamstring... really not hard. Oh, and then you can always BLAAAAAAAAAAAADESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORMMMMMMMMM.

Hunter? Charges and intercepts win the day, but keeping your hamstring and rend up are just as important. If you can throw in a disarm macro click before they burn their disengage it helps. Also, don't burn your bladestorm before they disengage. Oh, and then you can always BLAAAAAAAAAAAADESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORMMMMMMMMM.

Another warrior? Unless your prot a warrior won't kite you, instead they'll be using the hamstring to either slow you down so you can't run from their BLADESTORM, or so they can get into charge/intercept range. Be prepared to charge/intercept them, and to pop retaliation or shield wall on their BLADESTORM. Oh, and then you can always BLAAAAAAAAAAAADESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORMMMMMMMMM.

Death Knight? Follow this simple tutorial. Mortal Strike > Hamstring > Disarm > Bladestorm /dance. Oh, and then you can always BLAAAAAAAAAAAADESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORMMMMMMMMM.

If a shaman is kiting you, you're doing it wrong. Charge/Intercept, keep hamstring up as often as you can, even if their totem is breaking it. Oh, and then you can always BLAAAAAAAAAAAADESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORMMMMMMMMM.

Paladin's don't have snares. Oh, and then you can always BLAAAAAAAAAAAADESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORMMMMMMMMM.

Priests don't have snares. Oh, and then you can always BLAAAAAAAAAAAADESTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORMMMMMMMMM.






ALSO, you need to take into account diminishing returns. The only class that can really kite a warrior to death is a mage, the rest of the classes snares really don't bother us because we're too damn good at countering them because you can't snare kite a warrior, you can only immobilize kite them.

[Fhenrir]

Speaking from the perspective of a warrior with extensive 2v2 experience, I'd have to say being a Gnome was considerably more powerful in BC than it is now. Warriors as a class are more capable of breaking snares and avoiding being kited than they were in BC, so while the Gnome racial is still useful, it's scaled down quite a lot. Now it's handy, where as I had plenty of mirror matches in BC decided entirely by the fact that the opposing team's warrior was a gnome.


Regarding humans, I've noticed that a lot of Alliance players seem to underestimate how valuable it is in PvP. While it is technically not a free trinket, anyone who PvPs seriously will be using a trinket of some form or another for the ability to break CC. Because of this, humans are able to opt in something else with an entirely different effect, and this becomes ludicrous when you have human players who have access to high end PvE trinkets. Instead of being able to opt in one of them like most players, they can opt to use that along with a Battlemaster trinket, or even a second PvE trinket.

[Yatokth]

MY EYES, THE BLADESTORM DOES NOTHING.

You can shapeshift out of roots, which improved hamstring is. Good Druids can 1v1 kite a Warr all day, but with support from your team (3v3) they're easy to stick indeed. One on one however, no good RESTO druid should lose to you. Feral will most likely also rape you. If they're doomchicken, be sure to take the time to laugh IRL.

Crippling is 75%, Hamstring is 50%, good rogues will use this to 5-8 you. The key to beating good rogues is getting as much damage in as you can, putting up debuffs during dismantle, turtling if you need to, saving trinket for blind, and getting at least 2 bladestorm ticks in before you jump out and intercept so you can get a massive MS during that stun. If you get enough crits, a few 2H Overpowers should finish it. Rogues still hard counter me 1v1.

Mages, I actually trinket Deep Freeze, because if I get poly'd and trink, I'll just get poly'd again, Deep Freeze blows a CD and stops their pressure, and if I can, I interrupt the follow up poly, or reflect it. (super lulz)

I just turtle through enh shammies OHMYGODYOUCANTKILLMEIHAVEWOLVESMOVESUPERFAST thing.

Then rape them.

[Swerto]

I usually fear them for that, then kill them before the fear ticks off the wolves.

[Yatokth]

I usually fear them for that, then kill them before the fear ticks off the wolves.


This also works.

[Ryoku]

I usually stare at druids angrilly while they stare at me angrilly casting moonfire while I cast flame shock both of us waiting for someone else to come by because we'll never kill each other.

Arokai contributes to thread.

[Swerto]

Also, yat, the reason feral druids eat warriors isn't because of the fact they can get out of snares and kite, it's because the way they can push out damage, then turtle on a moment's notice.... while still putting out damage turtled.

[Yatokth]

Also, yat, the reason feral druids eat warriors isn't because of the fact they can get out of snares and kite, it's because the way they can push out damage, then turtle on a moment's notice.... while still putting out damage turtled.


Good ones will bleed kite, any Feral who tries to indefinitely Bear Tank me will lose.

Not that Bear Tanking isn't good in certain situations, but 1v1 you'll lose out on damage because of my ArP if you cat open > bear tank for the whole match. Have to bleed kite with your cat shit, or you'll lose.

[Lailinarel]

Wall of text discussion warrior pvp strategies that really doesn't belong in this thread.



Fixt.

I didn't ask you how to play a warrior. My point was that, despite what you may believe, it is quite possible to kite a warrior. Not easily anymore, but quite doable. And I'm gonna side with Fhen on this one as far as gnomes in BC, but if you refer to my previous post, you'll see that I did state that there are times where the human racial is good, but there are plenty where it's the epitomy of mediocrity and not at all, all it's cracked up to be.

[Kaliera]

Re: Feral Spirit enhancement cooldown spam:

Use shield block when they put this up and spam revenge to victory. They get shit for healing with all the blocked attacks, and Revenge is pretty much permanently lit up. Slap MS up to keep it from getting healed too much by partners.

I never get tired of drool-mouth beastcleave teams trying to zerg me down and instead getting their shaman gibbed.

[Yatokth]

Fixt.

I didn't ask you how to play a warrior. My point was that, despite what you may believe, it is quite possible to kite a warrior. Not easily anymore, but quite doable. And I'm gonna side with Fhen on this one, but if you refer to my previous post, you'll see that I did state that there are times where the human racial is good, but there are plenty where it's the epitomy of mediocrity and not at all, all it's cracked up to be.

Please point out such times.

The human racial is, at the very least, ALWAYS good, if not spectacular.


Re: Feral Spirit enhancement cooldown spam:

Use shield block when they put this up and spam revenge to victory. They get shit for healing with all the blocked attacks, and Revenge is pretty much permanently lit up. Slap MS up to keep it from getting healed too much by partners.

I never get tired of drool-mouth beastcleave teams trying to zerg me down and instead getting their shaman gibbed.

That's what I meant by turtling. Really funny, actually.

Haven't run into beast cleave on this BG in like... weeks though. Not since BM nerf.

[Swerto]

Didn't say it was impossible to kite a warrior, just impossible to SNARE kite a warrior.

[Fhenrir]

Please point out such times.

I can think of two potential responses.

One, when you are undergeared or a PvP-only player that cannot get access to two trinkets they would prefer to run over the trinkets other races run anyway (see: WG DPS trinket on a human for the DPS boost).

I can also counter that argument by pointing out that this is not the fault of the racial, but the player not utilizing its potential properly. The fact that it scales with gear does not make it a bad racial, only one that some players will not get the full benefit of.

Two, it's not that useful in PvE. And since this is the PvP forum, I won't bother going into any further detail or opinion.


Both of these reasons, to me, do little to dissuade my opinion that the Human racial is one of the best available. If there are any reasons I missed, please feel free to point them out.

[Yatokth]

I can think of two potential responses.

One, when you are undergeared or a PvP-only player that cannot get access to two trinkets they would prefer to run over the trinkets other races run anyway (see: WG DPS trinket on a human for the DPS boost).

I can also counter that argument by pointing out that this is not the fault of the racial, but the player not utilizing its potential properly. The fact that it scales with gear does not make it a bad racial, only one that some players will not get the full benefit of.

Two, it's not that useful in PvE. And since this is the PvP forum, I won't bother going into any further detail or opinion.


Both of these reasons, to me, do little to dissuade my opinion that the Human racial is one of the best available. If there are any reasons I missed, please feel free to point them out.

You put them up and then put down both my counter-arguments for it.

In the brackets where it matters, people have access to the gear necessary to utilize it.

PvE is not relevant.

[Jeedup]

PvE is not relevant.

Poop-head.

[Lailinarel]

Do I really have 3 other experienced (not to downplay your experience, as I know Yat and Fhen have probably more arena experience than myself) warriors telling me that they can't think of a time in pvp where having an additional root/snare break without popping their trinket wouldn't be handy? Do you really wanna blow bladestorm just to get out of a totem root? Really? Seeing as how a shammy with 1/4 of a brain will instantly ghostwolf and put some distance on you, you just popped your bladestorm only to have to charge/intercept to close the gap again anyway. Wouldn't you rather just hit the gnome racial and whack the totem so your BS is still available? Now say he's got a rogue team mate who blinds you. If you used your trinket you're SoL, if you popped the gnome racial, you can break it at your discretion.

It's a circumstantial thing. To say it's always gonna be the best thing you can have is just silly, but to say it's always gonna suck is just as much so.

Oh and it's great for pve. Anyone who says otherwise is silly.

[Yatokth]

Do I really have 3 other experienced (not to downplay your experience, as I know Yat and Fhen have probably more arena experience than myself) warriors telling me that they can't think of a time in pvp where having an additional root/snare break without popping their trinket wouldn't be handy? Do you really wanna blow bladestorm just to get out of a totem root? Really? Seeing as how a shammy with 1/4 of a brain will instantly ghostwolf and put some distance on you, you just popped your bladestorm only to have to charge/intercept to close the gap again anyway. Wouldn't you rather just hit the gnome racial and whack the totem so your BS is still available? Now say he's got a rogue team mate who blinds you. If you used your trinket you're SoL, if you popped the gnome racial, you can break it at your discretion.

It's a circumstantial thing. To say it's always gonna be the best thing you can have is just silly, but to say it's always gonna suck is just as much so.

Oh and it's great for pve. Anyone who says otherwise is silly.

All roots are dispellable, so depending on your comp, you might be right, but I play Dispel Cleave (Ret/Warr/Priest) so that's -rarely- an issue. Most Warrior teams in 3v3 have at least ONE dispeller.

Additionally, the small circumstance where said dispeller (or in my case, both dispellers) is CC'd and you are rooted and you need burst ABSOLUTELY RIGHT NOW, then you Bladestorm.

Why?

Because ABSOLUTELY RIGHT NOW burst is when you use Bladestorm all the time.

If you don't? Sit in the root. It's effing short, only a fool would trinket a root against a team with any sort of secondary/tertiary CC (which almost every team has, even if it's one ability on a long CD)

Roots additionally have a damage cap.

FEAR on the other hand, would be an issue, problem is, we have a fear break already. So WotF isn't that useful.

Nobody's racial breaks stuns (excluding humans, but I just sort of count that as their PvP trinket) so that's moot.

Perhaps in BC, indefinite or maximum uptime on a target was an issue, but especially against most shaman teams, well timed CC and burst is much more problematic in LK, making a single root break rather paltry when compared to the Bladestorm that you would have most likely -done anyway-. Now compare that to the human racial where your second trinket procs during or before your storm (yes, also another situational thing, but often with the speed at which storms go off and general proc rates, they DO line up. Additionally, procs before and after ALSO increase your pressure.)

Perhaps in one odd situation where you get rooted and you break it and then avoid a shadowfury it'd be better, but I'll take the damage and/or survivability (Battlemaster's) over that any day, that will make so many more situations doable than a single root break.

To sum up, the situational ability to break a root/snare, or clear bleeds, or break fear/charm/sleep, is stark outright inferior to the amount of damage and/or survivability that you can gain from the trinket, that will help you in MORE situations, and in those specific situations you mentioned, help you as well, just not as much. Imagine you're stunned and focused, and you pop your battlemasters out of shadowfury, saving your ass against a wiz cleave whereas any other person with a normal PvP trink/ArP trink setup would have died.

Or imagine equipping death's choice and just fucking bitches up with the proc up.

It's just more versatile in the overall sense, which makes it better in MORE situations, which makes it outright better.

Note that I do not min/max racials, otherwise I wouldn't be Undead, but I have knowledge of them.

EDIT: Let me also add that roots were much more of a big deal about getting distance when our only recourse of re-engagement was Intercept - we have Intercept and Charge now, making it much less of an issue with a healer behind us.

[Fhenrir]

Do I really have 3 other experienced (not to downplay your experience, as I know Yat and Fhen have probably more arena experience than myself) warriors telling me that they can't think of a time in pvp where having an additional root/snare break without popping their trinket wouldn't be handy?

The gnome racial isn't bad at all. However, it's significantly less useful in WotLK arenas than it was in BC arenas, due to the drastic change in style of both arenas in general and the warrior class (see Yat's post above).

My last two posts were entirely directed towards people who underestimate the human racial. I'm still curious to understand why you downplay the human racial the way you do, as well. Many reasons have been presented why the human racial is incredibly powerful, and you haven't shown an example to prove otherwise beyond comparing it to other racials like Escape Artist. Do you have a reason outside of EA that makes you think we're talking it up unjustly?

[Swerto]

And both are less useful than the human racial and the elf racial.


WTB all racials at the level as those two, like I stated before.



Also, my 3's comp has a dispeller for roots, but all dispells go to the healer or the other DPS (War DK Pally), because I am in no way scared of being kept away from my target by a snare effect.

[Lailinarel]

Perhaps the issue is myself / the people I play with, or maybe I'm stuck in the twos bracket era, or it's the fact that I have crap for trinkets and can't fully appreciate the talent. Or maybe a combination of all of the above, but I just have a hard time hearing that an ape stun doesn't compete with a free dps trinket slot. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know one thing is certain, I'm far to lazy to type anymore on my phone.

[Swerto]

Twos don't matter.

[Yatokth]

Perhaps the issue is myself / the people I play with, or maybe I'm stuck in the twos bracket era, or it's the fact that I have crap for trinkets and can't fully appreciate the talent. Or maybe a combination of all of the above, but I just have a hard time hearing that an ape stun doesn't compete with a free dps trinket slot. Maybe I'm wrong, but I know one thing is certain, I'm far to lazy to type anymore on my phone.

ape...stun...?

2s is the most imbalanced PoS bracket ever, only good for getting friends their T1 weapon by cruising to 1800, maybe get some 2K experience (or the 2200 achievement if you want arena master) to put into the other, more balanced, more useful brackets.

Some arena goers enjoy it, why I have no idea. They're usually rogues.

[Ryoku]

Druids too, Yat.

Can't forget the Druids.

[Skaadvik]

I enjoy my 2s. Well, sometimes. It's the team that's getting me all my gear so yeah. That's also because I haven't really had 3s or 5s all season though.

[Lailinarel]

Sorry, the phone assumed aoe was a typo and auto changed it to ape without me noticing. And consider that two's can get you any of the gear minus the shoulders and t2 weapons, so saying that they don't matter is a little silly. Personally I enjoy the two's bracket, but that's just me.

That said and getting back on topic. I had a funny thought, if other racials came in trinket form, do you think that people would make use of them? I kinda think the idea of a gnome tossing out a tauren stomp would be hilarious, but that's one again, just me.

[Sejarki]

If you want to really settle issues with racial imbalance there's a simple solution. Go look at the top rated arena teams and look for a trend in what races are showing up most often.

I glanced at it now right now and the most prominent race is easily Undead, with quite a few all Undead teams (mainly RMP teams, including the top 5 teams in 3s (http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/team/3/all/all/all/all/) being all Undead teams).

Huh, wonder if this is part of Blizzard's reasoning for the WotF nerf. :rolleyes:

[Swerto]

It's OP against teams that rely on fear.


The racial itself is not OP, it's a team comprised of nothing but undead that makes it OP


Blizzard's 'NERF' breaks the ability and makes it pointless to even have.

[Yatokth]

Sorry, the phone assumed aoe was a typo and auto changed it to ape without me noticing. And consider that two's can get you any of the gear minus the shoulders and t2 weapons, so saying that they don't matter is a little silly. Personally I enjoy the two's bracket, but that's just me.

That said and getting back on topic. I had a funny thought, if other racials came in trinket form, do you think that people would make use of them? I kinda think the idea of a gnome tossing out a tauren stomp would be hilarious, but that's one again, just me.

They don't get you glad or the endgame weapon, which means they don't matter in the high end.

Anyone competing for glad, which is now 2500+ at least, depending on BG and bracket, will have all the gear available, but since you can't GET Glad in 2s, it's a pointless bracket.

It's also imbalanced as FUCK.

And certainly I think War Stomp is powerful, up there with Arcane Torrent, but it resets the swing timer and has a cast time, though short, which makes it just not quite as good as Torrent or Every Man for Himself, it's one of the closest imo however.

EDIT: As for WotF, it was up there with AT and EMfH because of its incredible chaining ability that SERIOUSLY countered the metagame, because fear is a much more powerful CC than roots or anything else another racial breaks.

It was good in all situations, and OP in quite a few, which was just unacceptable, so they nerfed it.

The WAY they nerfed it is weird and clunky, but it did need a nerf.

[Sejarki]

If after the WotF nerf happens you see Humans flood to the top of the rankings, then there's an issue.

The problem is all racials tend to be situational, and it's near impossible to really quantify how useful one racial is vs. another. It's easy to bash on the Human racial because it's one of the few of which you can quantify it's value by saying it's an extra trinket slot, which equates to a flat boost in resilience/damage/whatever. But is that really better than an extra CC or CC break when CC is the primary component of arenas?

Right now it's hard to judge where Humans are sitting in the charts simply because there's so many Undead. But I imagine Blizzard has more accurate/easily accessible numbers than we do.

I expect to see Blood Elves take the top spot before Humans though since they're already more prominent. But then Horde are more prominent overall.

[Härken]

Arcane torrent was a game breaker for me hands down in arenas I do miss it because it was a healer killer aswell as a valuable source of interrupt. And again if any facials should be removed or change it's the nelf and belf Reduce hit chance % Rng broseph isn't that what blizz is trying to avoid right? either way this doesn't seem right to me.

[Swerto]

Neither me or Yat will disagree that WoTF needed a nerf.

But both of us also agree that the ability should just be dropped and Forsaken should get their entire racial revamped.

For instance

20% reduced fear duration, passive trait for instance. Much like the reduced stun duration for orcs.

A cannibalize that either works like a pennance (no cancel, just pushback) or a 'percent of damage done = heals' ability.

Give us sword spec too brah.

[Saulle]

Arcane torrent was a game breaker for me hands down in arenas I do miss it because it was a healer killer aswell as a valuable source of interrupt.

^ I do find myself at times wishing for AT over EMfH and then remember the good times I had in PvP with my old Belf. *stares off into the sunset dreamily* I think ultimately, the agreed idea is that given the advantage for these racials in many situations, others should be brought up to that level of potential. Don't get me wrong, back when Dwarfy racials had that little boost with not being able to bleed (for those few seconds)irritated the crap outta rogues, but a lot of racials beyond Belf and Human are finding themselves in situations where they just aren't up to par. Everything is becoming too reliant on certain situations and when too much of another situation presents itself, people start crying out.

Oh, and notice that when nerfs for certain races/classes occur, that PvP seems to take the hit because someone decides one group is doing too well in one thing? It's like Bush not talking when Cheney is drinking--check that shit out! (I don't care if I'm too late on that analogy, been waiting to crack out that gem)

[Lysimachus]

To be fair, arcane torrent isn't quite as good for casters as it is for melee. Still good, don't get me wrong, but it isn't often a good idea to put oneself in that situation (as a caster close by anyone else).

And for hunters, I would offer that it's terribad. But I might perhaps be incorrect in this (but really, what hunter is going to want run up to someone like that on many occasions? <_<) A lot of people seem to think mostly in the manner of a hand-to-hand fighter. Every single person's main above me on this page, save for Ryo, is melee xD.

The human racial is good regardless of class.

[Saulle]

To be fair, arcane torrent isn't quite as good for casters as it is for melee.

You're absolutely right. For the most part, we've been too focused on the melee aspect, considering a good chunk of us that have been using melee toons to talk about this.

I would say that AT for casters or ranged itself would be good on the hole for the extra mana, but that falls into the "if that's your last shot then you're dead anyway."

I always enjoyed the idea of a melee aspect to the hunter (really, the Ranger, I love Rangers) but noticed that was just terrible for the class. The beserking from Orcs would definitely be a boon, in that the extra damage and haste (?) would boost the output of damage. Hell, even on casters too, which would be very deadly.

Back to AT though, I have seen on occasion (BGs, mind you) where the stray mage would run into a group, AT and then blink out and kill us, but that varies from situation to situation. No idea how many racials would boost casters and ranged classes..thoughts?

[Swerto]

No, you're absolutely wrong.

Silence affects EVERY RACE/CLASS.


Warrior gets in your face and you can't blink in time before you die? Arcane torrent THEN blink. etc. etc.

Just know when to use it.

[Lysimachus]

Warriors and rogues cast spells?

[Swerto]

No, but it locks out all abilities. When silenced you can only melee swing, you can't use any specials. It's a two second silence, so that's two seconds I could slam+mortal strike you in.

[Lysimachus]

Well, despite that fact, and even though casters and hunters may of course "ought to know when to use it," melée fighters have many, many more openings to use it much more opportunistically (due to their very nature) than ranged (who are going to be doing everything in their power to not be standing right next to hand-to-handers if they can help it).

[Swerto]

That's the point, you're supposed to kill shit as much as you can before they come to you, at that point it's a fight for keeping them away.

Arcane Torrent helps this fight because it stops them from being able to do shit to you for two of those seconds.

It's useful, just know when to use it.

[Lysimachus]

Why do you highlight all your text in red?

[Swerto]

Because I do.

[Yatokth]

That's the point, you're supposed to kill shit as much as you can before they come to you, at that point it's a fight for keeping them away.

Arcane Torrent helps this fight because it stops them from being able to do shit to you for two of those seconds.

It's useful, just know when to use it.


AT (and due to itemization to a degree, EMfH as well) IS more useful for melee.

Not that it doesn't make it powerful.

[Swerto]

Of course it's MORE useful, but it's pretty damn useful for casters.

[Saulle]

Be that as it may, I know that popping AT on a Paladin is more or less a useless gesture. our attacks, combined with our seal, delivers the bulk of the damage, not to mention that (from what I recall) our Judgments are now considered melee attacks and not "spells" per se.

The only thing I can imagine for Warriors would be shouts and yells, unless that has changed. I can't say, because I haven't played a warrior since BC, let alone in any PvP encounter.

[Swerto]

It's not a useless gesture, while silenced the paladin can't stun or anything else to slow the person down.

Warriors and rogues can still melee swing too, but you're only going to get ONE swing in, since it's only a two second stun, which isn't as long as you think.

[Saulle]

Oh wait, I stand corrected. We have CRUSADER STRIKE (Ret), so we still have a rather serious ability out of 3. Even if we can't slow them down, we sure can keep up. Besides, if they pop AT, odds are the CC's have already been committed.

[Swerto]

Arcane torrent shuts down crusader strike, it's an ability.

Silences remove the ability to do ANYTHING other than melee swing. Otherwise they wouldn't affect warriors, rogues, or druids in their melee forms.

[Lysimachus]

Popping AT on a healer near the end of his cast as you are hacking at him is far more effective than the healer popping AT on you while you are hacking at him, 95 percent of the time!

[Urivial]

In response to Swerto: I dont have any solid proof (its the internet so I figure thats not a problem) but as I paladin Ive always been able to use crusader strike and divine storm while ATed

[Swerto]

I suggest you fight a blood elf again, or even a DK and have them drop strangulate on you, considering its the same kind of effect.

[Saulle]

Tried those abilities (Crusader Strike, Divine Storm) more than once everytime I've been Silenced. I have to say that unless otherwise stated, those are "melee" attacks, and are able to bypass (for some reason if you count it as a magical attack) the silence. Furthermore, this is bolstered by being unusable when you've been disarmed, yet able to use other magical attacks, ala Judgment.

It's highly speculative, but still, I can see problems with casters and ranged Blood Elves using AT. Ultimately, referring to an earlier post I made, I would surmise that other racials would be a boon, such as Berserk.

[Swerto]

I have been arcane torrented many times on my warrior while dueling DK's and Paladins, they often use it and it locks me out of being able to hamstring, rend, or mortal strike them for the two seconds.

Or at least it did as of five months ago, which is the last time I remember dueling a DK or Paladin who used it.

[Yatokth]

I have been arcane torrented many times on my warrior while dueling DK's and Paladins, they often use it and it locks me out of being able to hamstring, rend, or mortal strike them for the two seconds.

There is so much fail in that sentence I can hardly begin.

[Swerto]

YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED


That is what my screen looks like when it happens.

It's two seconds so it really doesn't matter because most people are too stupid to use it intelligently.

[Yatokth]

YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED
YOU CANNOT DO THAT WHILE SILENCED


That is what my screen looks like when it happens.

It's two seconds so it really doesn't matter because most people are too stupid to use it intelligently.

You're doing it so very wrong.

Silence only locks you out of spells, these are the ONLY abilities YOU should be locked out of when silenced:

Demoralizing Shout
Intimidating Shout
Battle Shout
Commanding Shout
Piercing Howl
Thunder Clap

That is ALL.

Every other ability you have is PHYSICAL and CAN BE USED WHILE SILENCED.

Divine Storm and Crusader Strike are ALSO physical, whereas Judgement is a magical attack (technically, but it also cannot be dodged or parried, OR resisted, lolwut? Note that it can be absorbed by AMS/AMZ.) thus Judgement cannot be used while Silenced, but CAN be used while Disarmed, and vice versa for Crus Strike/Dstorm.

That's how the game works. Your anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

[Swerto]

Okay then, I withdraw my argument over the past page.


Still useful for ranged, rogues can't blind or anything then.

[Yatokth]

Okay then, I withdraw my argument over the past page.


Still useful for ranged, rogues can't blind or anything then.

It certainly isn't useless to a good mage, hunter, or warlock, it's just not quite as GREAT as it is for melee.

Locks get trained the most of those 3 and I've seen them use it very well.

[Lysimachus]

...That's what I thought, Yatokth.

effing swerto had me using it on warriors in a couple arena battles tonight -_-

[Yatokth]

...That's what I thought, Yatokth.

effing swerto had me using it on warriors in a couple arena battles tonight -_-

Trusting Swerto over game mechanics?

FOR SHAME.

[Lysimachus]

Forgive me, O Lord, for I have erred!

[Swerto]

I can't even do arenas right now, my DK quit the game :(

[Marroc]

Okay then, I withdraw my argument over the past page.


Still useful for ranged, rogues can't blind or anything then.

... Blind is a physical ability. http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=2094

In other words, it can be missed/dodged but not resisted, and as such silence has no effect on it. In fact, silence has no effect on ANY rogue ability.

[Boudika]

so wai wai wait...AT DOES or DOES NOT affect warrior and rogues. I was always under the impression that it DOES NOT. Only reason I ever used it was as a..."well im fucked anyway" might as well start slapping keys kind of thing...or by accident.

[Ryoku]

It doesn't. That's why they call it a "silence" effect, because it silences you, making you unable to incant your spell, which makes sense as to why it would effect Warrior shouts.

However, Lysimachus, AT isn't entirely useless for a mage. It gives you what? 8% of your mana back? Plus the silence can be used situationally when you are close to another caster.

However, I'm curious as to whether or not DK abilities are considered spells or physicals that cannot be silenced. I'd assume the various strikes are physical, but I'm more curious about stuff like Death Coil, various diseases, and HOWRING BLIAOST which are obviously of the magical nature.

EDIT: Obligational "necroooooooooooooo" goes here, even though so far I'm the only dumbass to ignore posting dates and reply to old post.

[Boudika]

Alright then, I suppose im not as big a nub as I thought I was.

I do use the AT like you had mentioned...situationally, and if Im desperate for mana. I am also curious about the effect it does have on the DK abilities.

[Faeriel]

Silence effects against DKs end up working pretty much the same way they do against Paladins. "Strike" type abilities, such as Plauge Strike, Frost Strike, etc. etc. are unaffected and can be used while silenced. Spell abilities such as Icy Touch, Howling Blast, Deathcoil, etc. cannot be used.

[Lysimachus]

Oh, I'm well aware that AT is still a useful ability for casters, I never said it wasn't -- I was only suggesting that it is considerably nicer for rogues, death knights, paladins, and (oh god, oh dread) eventually warriors.

[Okhu]

Oh, I'm well aware that AT is still a useful ability for casters, I never said it wasn't -- I was only suggesting that it is considerably nicer for rogues, death knights, paladins, and (oh god, oh dread) eventually warriors.

That really depends, since I'm pretty sure they're redoing all the racials for Cataclysm.

[Lysimachus]

That really depends, since I'm pretty sure they're redoing all the racials for Cataclysm.

I hope so =\ Maybe they'll give the elves a totally new racial. "Twinklefingers: Sprinkles Glitterdust on your enemy, reducing their chance to hit by GAY percent."

[Marroc]

... However, I'm curious as to whether or not DK abilities are considered spells or physicals that cannot be silenced. I'd assume the various strikes are physical, but I'm more curious about stuff like Death Coil, various diseases, and HOWRING BLIAOST which are obviously of the magical nature.

It IS useful against DKs. I garrote DKs regularly because most of their abilities that does not require a weapon are a spell (the only one I can think of that's not a spell and does not require a weapon is icebound fortitude). This is important mainly because things like death pact and rune tap are affected.

Opening stun sequence -> dismantle -> vanish -> garrote will prevent a dk from healing for 3 seconds, which is usually enough time to finish one off before they can slam that death pact or rune tap :P

Granted it doesn't work on high-res DKs or anything like that, but the whole dismantle -> vanish -> garrote chain has won me many a fight against DKs in the past.

[Ryoku]

I hope so =\ Maybe they'll give the elves a totally new racial. "Twinklefingers: Sprinkles Glitterdust on your enemy, reducing their chance to hit by GAY percent."

I think they should just change to player-specific racials.

New racial added for all characters with the name Thalarios:
The Sun Was in My Eyes (Passive): Causes all deaths in to not reward HKs to the killer, and, gives a chance for defeats in rated arena battles to not reward the opposing team rating, and not penalize your team's rating. In addition, increases fire damage by 1%.

[Kained]

I hope so =\ Maybe they'll give the elves a totally new racial. "Twinklefingers: Sprinkles Glitterdust on your enemy, reducing their chance to hit by GAY percent."

Win.

That is all

[Gorymoru]

I think they should just change to player-specific racials.

New racial added for all characters with the name Thalarios:
The Sun Was in My Eyes (Passive): Causes all deaths in to not reward HKs to the killer, and, gives a chance for defeats in rated arena battles to not reward the opposing team rating, and not penalize your team's rating. In addition, increases fire damage by 1%.

Moar win.

[Jeedup]

I think the only thing that works on Warriors for Silence is Thunderclap. I -think- thats one of our few actual 'spells'.

[Irontoe]

Consecration: Consecrates the land beneath the Paladin, doing [8 * (113 + 0.04 * SPH + 0.04 * AP)] Holy damage over 8 sec to enemies who enter the area. Useful when guarding extremely narrow entrances to guild meetings against enemy Rogues.

[Yatokth]

I think the only thing that works on Warriors for Silence is Thunderclap. I -think- thats one of our few actual 'spells'.

Can't use any shouts either actually, but that's it.

[Jeedup]

Can't use any shouts either actually, but that's it.

huh...never noticed that. But hell, if your silenced, and you have to use a shout thats not Intimidating, you're a few steps behind and need to prioritize.

[Yatokth]

huh...never noticed that. But hell, if your silenced, and you have to use a shout thats not Intimidating, you're a few steps behind and need to prioritize.

I've only ever noticed it when fighting a rogue who opens with garrote so I can't Piercing Howl them (They always dodge hamstring) but otherwise you are correct.

[Skaadvik]

Fortunately, they added a great one for Googe, too. Now you'll actually be useful in PvP encounters!

Agressive Retreat: Allows the player to instantly kill his target by sprinting away and vanishing.

[Irontoe]

On a completely unrelated note, Skaadvik, I thought of a new racial for humans, dwarves, draenei, and blood elves.

Paladin: Go immune to all but two enemy abilities for 12 seconds. Become indignant and post to forums when an opponent attempts to escape melee range for the duration.

[Skaadvik]

On a completely unrelated note, Skaadvik, I thought of a new racial for humans, dwarves, draenei, and blood elves.

Paladin: Go immune to all but two enemy abilities for 12 seconds. Become indignant and post to forums when an opponent attempts to escape melee range for the duration.

Sadly, that would probably still prevent the new Googe racial from functioning. Nerf bubble imo.

[Fhenrir]

I don't mind the new direction of playing around with the idea of racials they could include (even joke ones), but if you guys keep using it as a thinly veiled means of attacking the opposite faction I'm gonna have to crack down.

Edit: I've also updated the thread title to properly reflect the direction this thread has taken.

[-Teleara-]

Consecration: Consecrates the land beneath the Paladin, doing [8 * (113 + 0.04 * SPH + 0.04 * AP)] Holy damage over 8 sec to enemies who enter the area. Useful when guarding extremely narrow entrances to guild meetings against enemy Rogues.

Rocket Boots.

It has to work . . . it just has to . .

[Irontoe]

Rocket Boots.

It has to work . . . it just has to . .

I know exactly what you're talking about. An unlucky pulse will nail you, though.

[Kredorian]

I don't think they really should have nerfed WoTF, but I do think some classes got a big screw job, but... then again I guess if used properly they can be huge advantages, troll priest for ex. But meh... I think they should ALL be OP, some are, some arent, lame. Give Tauren bigger stam buff imo.

[Ackley]

Well, the human racial is the best imo, frikin bullshit though in lowbie pvp when you go to fear a bunch of humans who just run straight back at you

[-Teleara-]

I know exactly what you're talking about. An unlucky pulse will nail you, though.

Screw that damn Unlucky Pulse.

In regards to Racials, Humans by far have the best Racial (Every Man for Themself) but, in regards to PVE. That is next to useless.

I have nothing else to add that hasn't been mentioned already. D: