Shaman Tanks

[Swerto]

NOTE: THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL DISCUSSION FOR CATACLYSM, NOT CURRENT WOW.

Before you guys go 'lol' this is mostly a hypothetical discussion, and because I've seen it show up other places I thought I'd start the discussion here.

Shamans already are a hybrid class that cover 3/4 possible spots to fill (Range, melee, healing, tanking... they fill the first three).

But the idea has been going around, with the advent of cataclsym, that shamans should get the ability to tank.

As it is, they cannot do it, they have horrible mitigation and are too glass cannon-ey.

But, the fact that they wield shields should say enough that tanking should be possible in the future. All it would take to make shamans tanks would be a few updates to their talent tree (something blizzard is doing anyways to all the trees)

Throw some mitigation talents into the enhancement tree, like a stoneskin improvement near the top of the tree that effectively turns you into a plate wearer when it's down (something that would help in PvP as well)

Hell, just make the entirity of shaman tanking revolve around either stoneskin or an entirely new totem that is deep in the enhancement tree.

I know it sounds silly at first but the more I think about it shaman tanking just makes sense.

[Raziel]

Ehhh... A shaman can tank any instance until 40 or so comfortably. 40 there's a jump in damage due to plate that mail can't *really* mitigate, but if pressed with the right support, any non-BC 5-man dungeon can be mitigated with a shaman with the know-how. The problem is that, other than rockbiter and earth shock, which have threat side-effects, they have no guaranteed taunt. Essentially, a group wouldn't need a main tank, they'd be using two off-tank hybrids that can support each other, and three offense classes (Ranged DPS/crowd-control would be best).

That's how I've seen it work in LBRS anyway. Boss fights are tricky though because of the Shaman's lowest base health. Being upfront means that there's very little time to use any real casting abilities without the proper talents to degenerate cast-time.

[Thalevia]

As Raz said shaman were capable tanks until 40, usually Scarlet Monastery is the last one they can do. However I did do a non heroic auchindon (crypts I think it was) instance with a shaman tank in BC and other than being a wee bit careful on our threat, we did fine.

[Swerto]

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq312/kleine_motte/read.gif

Note: this isn't for current WoW, this is for cataclysm.


With the removal of the 'defense' itemization, there will no longer be need to stack 'defense' gear, and instead you will only be stacking avoidance.

It wouldn't be hard for Blizzard to throw in some avoidance mail, and give stoneskin enough armor to turn a shaman into a plate wearer while within the range of their totem.

[Ryoku]

Long ago Blizzard did want Shaman to tank. If you take a look at a calculator from Vanilla, or even TBC, there were a few designated tanking talents in the enhance tree.

But they removed them, and they did it for a reason: Shaman aren't meant to tank.

It's still a funny joke though.

[Vyn]

The nonsense ended? Damn.

Alright, serious time. I've seen shamans tanking in Vanilla content. It was alright.

Vyn's conclusion: It's possible, but unlikely.

[Raziel]

I mean, in all technicality, they should.

Druids and Paladins can do it.

[Swerto]

The article that got me interested in this discussion (http://www.wow.com/2009/10/24/totem-talk-the-elusive-shaman-tank/)

[Vyn]

Honestly? I liked it more in Vanilla when it was paladins and warriors could tank. Druids Shamans and Priests could heal. (I think Pallys could too) DPS was DEEPEEFREAKINGESS. Now half the classes can heal themselves, everyone, whatever, they can tank, DPS, do backflips, triple indy-sowcows...
And rogues and warriors are shitfucking hard because all they have are bandages until Enraged regen.
Lets see some class separation. By Emerald Dream, Disc Priests will be OT-ing for Ice Mages and Warriors and Rogues will just be fuuuuuuuuuucked because they can never give them decent heals. (or armor for rogues)

(Up top, I mean well, and for endgame content.)

[Cyrass]

Honestly? I liked it more in Vanilla when it was warriors would tank. Druids Shamans, Paladins and Priests would heal.
Fix'd. If you disagree, you didn't play Vanilla.

Anyways, Shaman tanking...

Shaman Tanking was one of those things that didn't really work back in the day. Originally Enhancement was a mix between a tanking and DPS tree, but since Shaman were an armor class behind the other possible tanks, they were subpar even though they could get some pretty good threat generation. When the class was reviewed, Shaman tanking was left to the wayside and was left to shrivel and die.

Recently, there has been a resurgence of people asking for it back and I know that I wouldn't particularly mind (I kinda enjoyed Shaman tanking back in the day.) However, it wasn't really viable and it would be a lot of work for what still appears to be a niche audience.

[Akuje]

With the removal of the 'defense' itemization, there will no longer be need to stack 'defense' gear, and instead you will only be stacking avoidance.


So, you read what you want and ignore everything blizzard says?

They are removing defense rating and making required talents for the tanking class's to make them crit immune.

They have said over, and over, the shaman tank has passed, it has died, and they will not resurrect it. I don't care if you want it. Right now all you are doing is this..

http://3alleypub.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

[Cyrass]

They have said over, and over, the shaman tank has passed, it has died, and they will not resurrect it. I don't care if you want it. Right now all you are doing is this..


While I don't disagree, I would like the actual quote(s) for this.

Also, do we really need the actual dead horse? I mean, some people do come on here with their kids with them.

[Thalevia]

So, you read what you want and ignore everything blizzard says?

They are removing defense rating and making required talents for the tanking class's to make them crit immune.


Much like druids already have.

[Vyn]

I agree Cyrass, I was just... OH GOD NO THE TRAUMA! THE REJECTION! THE QQ!

Aaaaaaaaand...
'Underwater leveling? Blizz would never do that.'
'Horde Paladins? Blizz would never do that.'

[Swerto]

The thing is, I think shaman tanks would be epic, and it would only require some tweaking of the class, something that is going to happen ANYWAYS, why not add in some tank talents in the enhancement tree, sort of like the feral tree for druids.

Druids and shamans should have always been the faction specific classes pitted against each-other, not paladins and shamans.

[Cyrass]

why not add in some tank talents in the enhancement tree, sort of like the feral tree for druids.

Because that tree is already kind of a clusterfuck?

[Swerto]

They're redoing ALL THE TREES, or did you miss that at Blizzcon? It won't be the clusterfuck it is now, it'll be more 'fun' talents, and less +5% to crit talents. I'm sure they'll be room in Enhancement.

[Cyrass]

They're redoing ALL THE TREES, or did you miss that at Blizzcon? It won't be the clusterfuck it is now, it'll be more 'fun' talents, and less +5% to crit talents. I'm sure they'll be room in Enhancement.

No, I know that. However, until I see otherwise, I'm pretty sure that it's going to remain that way, because it's never been anything but one.

[Okhu]

While they are at it they can make rogue tanks too. Just give us more dodge and parry until we have 100% dodge. WOOO! Also make Evasion a 25 second cooldown with 15 seconds long evasion. YEAH!!!

[Mohan]

Go to youtube and search for shaman tank. There are some pretty interesting videos featuring this guy (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Chromaggus&n=Sharicasmi). And not old content either. Malygos, Ignis, Freya - to name a few.

But I agree with the general consensus. It's pretty unlikely that Blizzard will intentionally make shamans into tanks. Some people have gotten creative and made it work, but it's probably not something we'll see in development.

[Ansha]

Honestly? I liked it more in Vanilla when it was paladins and warriors could tank. Druids Shamans and Priests could heal. (I think Pallys could too)


I have no idea where you got the idea that paladins could tank pre-BC. Warriors were the only recognized raid-tanks for most things, though a handful of druids (including myself, when Ansha was a nelf druid) with open-minded raidleaders/guilds tanked T1/2/3 content.

As for non-raids, up through 60, a shaman could still tank UBRS/LBRS and Strat with a group that knew what they were doing.

Paladins...well, paladins healed. And tanked non-raid instances without a taunt.

[Swerto]

Cyrass, I don't think you're thinking this through. Tanking talents in the enhancement tree could fix MANY of it's current problems, and if they've got ones low enough on the tree they could help elemental and restoration as well.

[Irontoe]

Blizzard said that they never plan to make shamans tanks, and that their current talent tree discourages tanking.

GG

[Yatokth]

Blizzard said that they never plan to make shamans tanks, and that their current talent tree discourages tanking.

GG

This.

They added Death Knights for the SOLE REASON of adding another tank class.

They aren't going to add -another one- with Cata. It's unneeded.

And Enhancement really doesn't have that many problems at the moment.

[Leyujin]

Go to youtube and search for shaman tank. There are some pretty interesting videos featuring this guy (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Chromaggus&n=Sharicasmi). And not old content either. Malygos, Ignis, Freya - to name a few.

But I agree with the general consensus. It's pretty unlikely that Blizzard will intentionally make shamans into tanks. Some people have gotten creative and made it work, but it's probably not something we'll see in development.

Dude Mohan, that guy is my new hero.

[Cyrass]

Blizzard said that they never plan to make shamans tanks, and that their current talent tree discourages tanking.

GG

Again, while not contesting this, I'd like if someone could find the actual quote just to end this.

[Ryoku]

Go to youtube and search for shaman tank. There are some pretty interesting videos featuring this guy (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Chromaggus&n=Sharicasmi). And not old content either. Malygos, Ignis, Freya - to name a few.

But I agree with the general consensus. It's pretty unlikely that Blizzard will intentionally make shamans into tanks. Some people have gotten creative and made it work, but it's probably not something we'll see in development.

.... :O

You know, recall my previous comment. Watching this guy actually makes me want to try this.

Granted it's probably more difficult than it appears, and I'd probably have zero luck justifying rolling on much of the tanking stuff he has, but it'd still be a kick in the ass to try out.

[Chikt]

Just to reiterate my previous point in a far less trolly manner, as it appears to have been deleted:

World of Warcraft doesn't need any more classes that can cover Tanking duties.

The points made in the WoW.com post are very good, for sure (Prot Paladins and Feral Druids both have the ability to do some ridiculous DPS, thought I am not sure it is intended on the Prot side) but lets face it, does WoW really need ANOTHER class that can tank?

Lets examine the classes in the game right now.

Tanks:
Paladins
Warriors
Death Knights
Druids

Physical DPS:
Paladins
Warriors
Death Knights
Druids
Shaman
Rogues
Hunters

Spell DPS:
Druids
Shaman
Mages
Priests
Warlocks

Healers:
Paladins
Druids
Shaman
Priests

Only one class has the ability to fill every role, and that's Druids. The only classes that come close are Paladins and Shaman. And neither one of them needs to fill an extra role. Making them able to fill such roles would risk the possibility of the class becoming far too watered down and difficult to balance - just as balancing druid physical DPS and tanking is problematic. The main reason I see Druids haven't had one of their role-filling abilities removed is because of the uproar it would cause in the community, and because they fill a nice niche as is.

If another class gets introduced, I imagine it will be one that can fill a Tanking / Spell DPS / Healing role, most likely.

[Akuje]

Shamans have three really distinct roles. Enhancement is melee DPS. Elemental is ranged DPS. Restoration is healing. Once upon a time there was a potential tanking role for shamans as well, but we have pretty much phased that out.


GhostCrawler in the shaman QnA. I dont feel like finding it on the blizzard site but heres a link.
http://wow.curse.com/articles/wow-en-news/496854.aspx

[Voice of the Storm]

Once upon a time there was a potential tanking role for shamans as well, but we have pretty much phased that out.


And thank god they did, IMO.

[opalexian]

I still remember earth shock aggro-stealing in SM. Good times. You're all mean. :P

[Raynell]

Go to youtube and search for shaman tank. There are some pretty interesting videos featuring this guy (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Chromaggus&n=Sharicasmi). And not old content either. Malygos, Ignis, Freya - to name a few.

But I agree with the general consensus. It's pretty unlikely that Blizzard will intentionally make shamans into tanks. Some people have gotten creative and made it work, but it's probably not something we'll see in development.

Now that's a guy who likes to live DANGEROUSLY.

[Cyrass]

Shamans have three really distinct roles. Enhancement is melee DPS. Elemental is ranged DPS. Restoration is healing. Once upon a time there was a potential tanking role for shamans as well, but we have pretty much phased that out.


GhostCrawler in the shaman QnA. I dont feel like finding it on the blizzard site but heres a link.
http://wow.curse.com/articles/wow-en-news/496854.aspx
Thank you. :)


And thank god they did, IMO.
I enjoyed Shaman tanking while it was around.

[Agnarr]

Speaking as a warrior, I'd have to say NO SHAMAN TANKS.

We're flooded with tanks as it is. :(
Need more healers imo.

[Swerto]

Warrior healers incoming.


HOLY SHOUT - HEALS ENTIRE PARTY FOR 50% LIFE
LIGHT REND - HEALS PARTY MEMBER FOR 60% OF LIFE OVER 20 SECONDS

[Agnarr]

I'm just annoyed I can heal myself better in fury than I can in prot.

[opalexian]

Go to youtube and search for shaman tank. There are some pretty interesting videos featuring this guy (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Chromaggus&n=Sharicasmi). And not old content either. Malygos, Ignis, Freya - to name a few.

But I agree with the general consensus. It's pretty unlikely that Blizzard will intentionally make shamans into tanks. Some people have gotten creative and made it work, but it's probably not something we'll see in development.

This is the coolest thing ever and I HAVE A NEW GOAL IN LIFE. ALL OF YOU DIAF MUAHAHAHHAHAHA

[Faeriel]

I'm just annoyed I can heal myself better in fury than I can in prot.

I'm just annoyed I can heal myself better as Ret then I can as Prot. Wait, no that makes sense, tanks with effective, in-combat self heals would be kind of broken with the current tank / healer mechanics.

[Agnarr]

I'm just annoyed I can heal myself better as Ret then I can as Prot. Wait, no that makes sense, tanks with effective, in-combat self heals would be kind of broken with the current tank / healer mechanics.

How many instances (sub 80, I'd hope) can you solo because you can heal yourself? What about heroic 70s? As a prot warrior, I have a 0.5% chance to solo a level 70 heroic dungeon (I'm assuming. I've only tried a couple and they didn't go well at all).

I don't expect to be able to solo a lot of shit that I shouldn't be soloing at the appropriate level. When paladins/DKs/Druids can because of their self-healing abilities, it makes me sad face.

[Vyn]

Yeah, DKs can do it. But nobody likes blood DKs anyway.

[Faeriel]

Hm, you've got a point there. I don't really solo a lot of instances for fun, though I don't really use any self-healing abilities in combat when I solo ZG. Using Seal / Judgment of Light can provide fairly potent healing, though most situations I've seen as a Prot Paladin since BC, I could get through on mitigation and cooldowns (<3 Divine Shield).