Varimathras' replacement? ((*mini...spoiler?))

[Necroxis]

So, someone on the WoW forums asked about a potential replacement since ((Spoiler...? I guess?)) Varimathras dies when the Horde wtfpwn him during the Battle for Undercity.

Kisiriani had THIS to say:


A bronze whelp delivers the following note, which certainly doesn't seem to be in Sylvanas' hand:

Deathhorne,

You're right. Someone has to fill the void and take care of business. I'll take that scroll from you when I get to my post.

- B

There's no further signature, but oddly, it seems to be dated "3.3"...

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=19820328307&pageNo=1&sid=1#8

Any guesses? The argument for Balnazzar seems...ridiculous...

Not only have we RECENTLY (Meaning he most likely will return but not yet) killed him, but Sylvanas was just betrayed by his brother, why would she employ another Dreadlord?

My guess would be for Nathanos Blightcaller

Or Bolvar.

Although...if Bolvar ends up going to the Forsaken...I'm going to be pissed...because he was a bamf.

I'd be content with Bolvar being a Forsaken, but then joining like the Argent Crusade or something.

Thoughts?

[Swerto]

It's probably not nathanos, because he's the Dark Lady's champion in the Plaguelands, and lorewise is considered dead because Alliance had to kill him for a quest.

If it's Bolvar I'll be laughing.

[Keraph]

I was actually gonna post this info myself, because any Forsaken-related news makes me all giddy.

I wouldn't be suprised if they pulled Nathanos from EPL to be her lead servant. Sure, he may be considered 'dead' due to quest lore, but we are the Forsaken. We are unstoppable.

I'll be giddy as SHIT if Bolvar ends up being forsaken and appropriately anti-Alliance, though short of brainwashing or something I couldn't really see that happening. We'll just have to see, though. Maybe he's in the 5 man Icecrown dungeon, and is saved from his capture, but not by the Alliance that he put his faith in, but instead by our dark queen. This could create some sort of paradigm shift for him. At this point though, I'm just taking shots in the dark at what I'd consider cool, absolutely no basis for that one.

Deeeefinately don't think it'd be Balnazaar. I think we've learned our "don't trust demons" lesson.

[Amoola]

this is a fun thread to read.

Otherwise I haven't a clue. lol

[Ryoku]

I have no idea.

Bolvar would be silly.

However, since Nathanos Blightcaller was a ranger, and since we're introducing Forsaken Hunters.. I could see it.

[Necroxis]

I have no idea.

Bolvar would be silly.

However, since Nathanos Blightcaller was a ranger, and since we're introducing Forsaken Hunters.. I could see it.

Yeah..this makes the most sense to me right now.

[Broxigan]

To copy my post from another forum:

It will more than likely be Blightcaller. Think about it.

3.1 we had a Tauren who asked you to bring a shield to TB and the random banter of Tauren "Sun Druids/Sunwalkers".

3.2 we had the Highbourne Night Elf Mage quest blah blah blah.

3.3 I think we will have Blightcaller/Undead Hunter quest to Undercity as well as a Wildhammer Dwarf quest to Ironforge.

These guys will probably be the class trainers for these classes. *shrug* Makes sense to me.

Orcs already have trolls in the city for their Mage training.
Trolls...well, they don't have the druid thing...hm. Could be something here with someone.
Gnomes live with dwarves and have priests near them.

[Swerto]

Thing is Sylvanas is a hunter (well, Dark Ranger), it makes no sense to put TWO hunters next to eachother.

Unlike with Night Elf mages and Tauren Paladin/Priests no new lore is required for Undead or human hunters, they already exist.

[Broxigan]

Same reason they have a Shaman trainer in grommash hold.

[Taknar]

I'd say it was Blightcaller if it weren't for the fact that it was among the first recommended and just a few posts later Kirisani (sp?) said that people weren't likely to guess it by taking shots in the dark like that.

Bolvar I had completely forgotten about; especially with the "Do they know?" talk of the Red Flight after Wrathgate. That's an interesting one.

Another route to take would be to follow the clue of the bronze whelp, but for now I think I'll put my money behind Bolvar.

[Swerto]

The thing is he's supposed to replace varimathras, no other trainer is at boss level.

They will probably drop someone next to Varian as well (Broll, Valeera, etc.?) to even it up.

[Taknar]

The thing is he's supposed to replace varimathras, no other trainer is at boss level.

They will probably drop someone next to Varian as well (Broll, Valeera, etc.?) to even it up.

I could have sworn that Broll and Valeera were already there somewhere. Also, you lost me with the trainer bit. Typo perhaps?

I wouldn't be too concerned with them putting too many "bosses" in the same room together. I mean, warsong hold has Garrosh and Saurfang together; 2 of the top 3 orcs in existence.

[Swerto]

That's not the problem, Sylvanas is actually easy now because there is only one boss there.

They're replacing Varimathras because of this, putting this 'B' there... so it has to be a boss.

No boss in game is a class trainer, so that's not it.

[Taknar]

Okay, re-reading the thread again I get what you are saying. I don't think it means much though that there are currently no boss level trainers. They are going back on a lot of things we never thought they would mechanically; flying in Azeroth as an example.

[Irontoe]

That's not the problem, Sylvanas is actually easy now because there is only one boss there.

She is not easy compared to other city bosses. She's surrounded by battlemasters; her teleport and ranged abilities are difficult to counter in heavy lag, which is common to any Undercity raid; and there is nowhere to pull her to LOS Horde defenders (such as the side rooms in Stormwind, the ramp in Exodar, the pillars in Darnassus, etc).

[Swerto]

They'll probably just have the hunter trainer in thatroom somewhere, just like there is a Paladin trainer there, but it won't be the new person who's going to be standing where Varimathas used to.

[Rethius]

Sylvanas needs a helper? Nominate Rethius, why?
http://i38.tinypic.com/11t7mt2.png

Yeah, he is that tough.


Okay, seriously, whats with the Sylvanas needing help anyway? And why Demons anyway?

[Rand_Shea]

Bolvar makes no sense, even if he did go Forsaken. He was a city leader and an Alliance hero who was able to solo Onyxia's elite guards by himself...

There's no one all ready in the lore that would be strong enough to break his spirit to brainwash him into being anti-alliance, dead or not. There's also no one strong enough to possess him, save perhaps Arthas or Frostmourne, and if that happened, he certainly wouldn't be welcome amongst Sylvanas.

Making some new character up to fuck with him somehow... I could see that happening, but it would suck and completely debase an awesome hero character. I certainly hope they don't.

Balnazaar is actually more likely... but I doubt he'd serve Sylvanas willingly, or that she'd risk another Dreadlord having that much power within her circle again.

Blightcaller to me is the most likely. He might have been killed in a quest, but Blizzard can easily pass it off that while he was defeated, he managed not to be killed. Remember, no one in development actually gives a shit what players do, so nothing players accomplish matters to the storylines and lore they create and use.

[Okhu]

Or..it could possibly be..........

*Gasp*

Some new character we haven't heard of!

Or a complete shot in the dark!

[Catilyn]

I can't shake off the feeling that it has something to do with the Bronze Whelp...

Who do we know, starting with a "B" that is associated with the Bronze Flight?

.... *ponders*

[Okhu]

Obviously its Baron Geddon.

[Xiphus]

Nathanos is the most likely candidate judging by his track record with Sylvanas. She is the one who recommended him to join the ranks of the High Elven Rangers after all, so there is no reason why she wouldn't draft Nathanos Blightcaller, the Forsaken she has a very high opinion of, to take the role.

But of course, seeing that he DID insult each and every Forsaken who were sent by the Banshee Queen to train under him, whether he will be obeyed is a different story. But of course, if he 'trained' those fellows the same way a drill sergeant would, they would be obliged to listen lest they get dumped in the same valley as that oversized maggot again.

[Yichimet]

Bolvar makes no sense, even if he did go Forsaken. He was a city leader and an Alliance hero who was able to solo Onyxia's elite guards by himself...

There's no one all ready in the lore that would be strong enough to break his spirit to brainwash him into being anti-alliance, dead or not. There's also no one strong enough to possess him, save perhaps Arthas or Frostmourne, and if that happened, he certainly wouldn't be welcome amongst Sylvanas.

Making some new character up to fuck with him somehow... I could see that happening, but it would suck and completely debase an awesome hero character. I certainly hope they don't.

Balnazaar is actually more likely... but I doubt he'd serve Sylvanas willingly, or that she'd risk another Dreadlord having that much power within her circle again.

Blightcaller to me is the most likely. He might have been killed in a quest, but Blizzard can easily pass it off that while he was defeated, he managed not to be killed. Remember, no one in development actually gives a shit what players do, so nothing players accomplish matters to the storylines and lore they create and use.

If Varian heads into Icecrown, finds a Forsaken Bolvar, and wants to "put his good friend out of his misery," I'd find that a pretty compelling means of getting him to switch sides.

[Xiphus]

If Varian heads into Icecrown, finds a Forsaken Bolvar, and wants to "put his good friend out of his misery," I'd find that a pretty compelling means of getting him to switch sides.

It's far more likely for Bolvar to just take it. The guy is irredeemably loyal to Varian.

[Taknar]

I dunno. Dying can change a man. I wouldn't leave it out of the realm of possibility.

[Qabian]

The dude Mal'ganis is currently possessing also has a name starting with B: Barean Westwind. But the leap from Scarlet Onslaught to Undercity seems waaay too huge. Plus, we're supposed to know who he really is and be able to defeat him. I don't think there's any way that could be pulled off with the remotest degree of logic. Unless it's the actual Admiral, ha!

Still, I looked in that direction after the mentions of Balnazzar and smirked.

[Geofforan]

"B" could stand for "Blizzard."

[Irontoe]

I can't shake off the feeling that it has something to do with the Bronze Whelp...

Who do we know, starting with a "B" that is associated with the Bronze Flight?

.... *ponders*

The bronze whelp is the avatar of the dev who posted that.

[Rand_Shea]

If Varian heads into Icecrown, finds a Forsaken Bolvar, and wants to "put his good friend out of his misery," I'd find that a pretty compelling means of getting him to switch sides.

1) Bolvar would, most likely, not have become undead because he wanted to. It would either take someone FORCING his soul to inhabit his corpse once again, or begrudgingly doing so because of some perceived threat against his people and allies that he felt could not be defeated without his continued help.

Either way, he would hate it. Absolutely hate every moment that he's still made to reside in his old husk. He would probably also feel defiled, dishonored, and probably unworthy of going to whatever afterlife he may believe in... but if it ensured the survival of his people and innocent lives he would sacrifice his own self worth for it.

2) He was Varian's most trusted friend and confidant, taking over in his stead when he went missing, raising the prince as if he were his own son, and preventing a coup and takeover by the misstress of the black dragons herself.

Yes, Varian would be pissed regardless of why Bolvar would be undead. He would rage and want to kill him to put him to rest and restore his old friend's honor. Bolvar would either allow it out of wanting to be released or only prevent it if there was some dire reason he felt he NEEDED to still be around.

I am willing to bet that even though he would potentially prevent Varian from killing him and possibly earn his hatred, he would still long to be killed again and want it to be done by someone he devoted his life to.

3) Because he would hate it so much and has such loyalty to Varian and the Alliance, he would NOT join the Horde willingly. Sylvanas would have to force him into service, and it's doubtful she would do that again even if Bolvar isn't a dreadlord. Forced loyalty is something that is guaranteed to eventually blow up in the face of the person forcing it.

The only way he would join the horde and serve her would be if, somehow, doing so benefited or protected his king, his prince, and his people. Maybe he would do so to try and achieve peace, but that would really be a stretch.

[Swerto]

Speculation on Bolvar's current character makes it even more likely.

Why do you ask?

Because hating what you are is part of being Forsaken, all Forsaken passed through the phase... even Sylvanas.

'What are we if not slaves to this torment?"

Do you forget that Sylvanas was forced to be what she is today? And at first she hated every bit of it. She used to be as noble and loyal to her homeland as Bolvar, but now she could care less. She is Forsaken, she is the leader of the Forsaken, she will have her vengeance and her place in the world will be known.

I could see Bolvar being completely disguisted with his body, hating it in every bit.

3.3 could bring him because it's when we hit icecrown. The intro video could have Sylvanas outside icecrown, and sneaking in, taking a pot shot at Arthas only for Bolvar to step in the way. The shot could free his mind or something and Bolvar and Sylvanas could fight Arthas together, and get forced back out into the Northrend wastes where she asks him to join the Forsaken and he reluctantly agrees, wanting to destroy the scourge as much as she does and knowing that the people of Stormwind could never accept him for what he is.

[Netharius]

Valid points here.I don't personally believe that Bolvar is indeed who the "B" stands for, but it is theoretically possible. He would hate becoming undead, yes, but so did Sylvanas. Suppose after finding himself within his horrific, rotting corpse a group of Argent Crusade knights discovered him. He would definately side with them, regardless of what race they were (yes, even the Horde races), in the hopes of returning to his people and aiding them, even in undeath. Varian is then easily set up to pull a Garithos and rant about how Bolvar has been raised as an abomination and obviously lost his mind, accompanying these brutes and enemies of the Alliance. Varian respects his friend, but I'm sure he respects his memory more than a Forsaken Bolvar. Varian would sooner slay him, even if Bolvar's intentions were to help his people.

It is unlikely, but Bolvar count indeed be forced into a position of helping undead humans over no one at all. I still stand by my previous post in this thread as to whom "B" stands for.

[Rethius]

Speculation on Bolvar's current character makes it even more likely.

Why do you ask?

Because hating what you are is part of being Forsaken, all Forsaken passed through the phase... even Sylvanas.

'What are we if not slaves to this torment?"

Do you forget that Sylvanas was forced to be what she is today? And at first she hated every bit of it. She used to be as noble and loyal to her homeland as Bolvar, but now she could care less. She is Forsaken, she is the leader of the Forsaken, she will have her vengeance and her place in the world will be known.

I could see Bolvar being completely disguisted with his body, hating it in every bit.


This just reminds me of how big of tools the Forsaken really are.

I'm sorry but its true.

I HATE WHAT I AM, I LOVE WHAT I WAS, SO I'M GOING TO FIGHT EVERYTHING THAT I WAS.


wut.

[Rand_Shea]

Sylvanas hates what happened to her, who did it, and what she is, but her desire for revenge supercedes all her self-loathing and disgrace. She can't die until she fucks everyone else over, or rather, she won't, because of her personal pride.

Bolvar is and never was that full of himself and while being undead is a dismissive detail to Sylvanas, it would be devastating to him.

That devastation could very well twist him, but Blizzard has put him up as a much stronger character than to succumb to that. Their choice, but it would be a very stark change if they decided to allow that to happen.

[Swerto]

Sylvanas was a very strong character too. Dying changes people.

[Necroxis]

Sylvanas was a very strong character too. Dying changes people.

^This

If you read Arthas: Rise of the Lich King and play Warcraft 3...

Bolvar and Sylvanas are INCREDIBLY similar in their loyalty to their homeland and it's cause.

However, I think an important fact that people haven't brought up is what Bolvar says right before "dying"

"We're finished...no escape...for any of us."

For such a strong and badass character, I think Bolvar basically saying "We're all screwed and we have no chance" is quite a significant shift in his thinking compared to everything else he's done.

As much as I dislike speculation, I think it could be fairly easily argued that, if Blizzard decided to send Bolvar to the Forsaken, it wouldn't be too big of a shift.

He gave everything for his homeland.
He basically led Stormwind for 3+ years.
He raised Anduin as his own.
Varian sends him to Northrend, where he witnesses all the horrors of both the Scourge.

He dies from a Putress-gank at the Wrathgate...where FINALLY, on the battlefield, the Horde and the Alliance have become allies, brethren in battle. Saurfang the Younger showing him that, unlike that idiot Garrosh, there do exist some honorable Orcs and members of the Horde.

Depending on what happens in 3.3...and Varian's response...Bolvar could easily hop over to Sylvanas' side.

I agree with the majority of what people are arguing about Varian, I could really easily see him go "Bolvar! My once-brother...now an Undead Abomination...let me put you out of your misery" while Bolvar goes "Wut...? I can still help and fight for you..."

Then again...it could go a WHOLE different few routes:

1.) Bolvar is accepted back by Varian but hidden from Stormwind's public very much like Fairbanks was with the Crusade.

2.) Bolvar actually joins the Forsaken very much like Varimathras did...to undermine Sylvanas...but not for the Legion...but for in fact Varian and stormwind.

3.) Bolvar says "Screw all this faction shit...I'ma go join the Argent Crusade or Ebon Blade" as I'm convinced either Darion or Tirion Fordring or both will die in Icecrown Citadel.

[Swerto]

I doubt Darion will die in icecrown, there needs to be a leader for the Ebon Blade, they will be the only other undead faction once the Scourge is gone. The remainder of the scourge's forces will be divided up between them and the Forsaken, much like Europe was divided between the west and russia after WWII.


With the Forsaken being the USSR



AHHHHH MOTHERLAND!

[Necroxis]

I doubt Darion will die in icecrown, there needs to be a leader for the Ebon Blade, they will be the only other undead faction once the Scourge is gone. The remainder of the scourge's forces will be divided up between them and the Forsaken, much like Europe was divided between the west and russia after WWII.


With the Forsaken being the USSR



AHHHHH MOTHERLAND!

Yes...I agree...thats why I could see Darion dying and Bolvar stepping up as a possible solution.

Darion, much moreso than most of the Ebon Blade...seems convinced that once the Lich King has been defeated/killed...his existence means little...which is why I could see him sacrificing his life if (in his mind) it was a legitamate attempt at killing Arthas.

[Rethius]

So... Where would that put Forsaken Deathknights?

[Okhu]

Everyone knows once Arthas dies all the Scourge not already forsaken are going to crumble to dust, their spirits finally released from the horrible Frostmourn.

OR they will become feral, under the control of no-one but still mindless husks.

[Swerto]

Forsaken Death Knights are either Forsaken or Ebon blade, not both.

Also not all DK players belong to the Ebon Blade, many of them belong to the Horde or Alliance, if they belong to the ebon blade then they wouldn't fight other ebon blade... ever.

[Rethius]

Everyone knows once Arthas dies all the Scourge not already forsaken are going to crumble to dust, their spirits finally released from the horrible Frostmourn.

OR they will become feral, under the control of no-one but still mindless husks.

The latter most likely.

Don't forget about the cult of the damn. And the practice of necromencery wont die out because Arthas did.

There will be more bat shit crazy goths.

[Swerto]

Of course it won'tall die out overnight, but the Forsaken and Ebon blade are going to grab what they can. Huge undead armies? Yes please.

The scourge strong enough are going to have free minds when it's all over and they'll choose sides themselves, the rest will be feral or too stupid to care and will get grabbed by either side or third party necromancers.

[Keraph]

So... Where would that put Forsaken Deathknights?

Infection x3

[Xiphus]

I like to point out several things: Sylvanas originally thought that the High Elves were a goner. That's why she started the Forsaken as the means to take revenge. When she realized that there is a sizeable force of High Elves, now Blood Elves, still lingering around and no longer Alliance, she was quick to recommend them to Thrall so they can join the Horde. Sylvanas's loyalty is still very strong.

Bolvar, however, is a different story. He will NEVER join the Horde because his loyalty lies with Stormwind. Unlike High Elves, Stormwind was not in the position of annihilation. There was no reason for him to be disillusioned or be in despair about his former loyalties, no, because Stormwind still exist and it is as strong as ever! And thus, he is far more likely to creep his way back to Stormwind and beg Varian to just kill him.

Of course, he can choose to exist because he believe his people needs him and join the Argent Crusade. The Argent guys never turn away anyone who are willing to join them and fight the undead. Remember that one of the Argent Dawn is an undead.

[Swerto]

If you think for one moment Sylvanas cares about the Blood ELves, you're wrong.

She got them into the horde for one reason: They're right there on the other side of the plaguelands ready to help her cause.

Before the blood elves joined the Horde the Forsaken were the odd man out, the eastern horde all alone with the rest of the horde hating them. When they got the elves in they had a bitch to push around, that is the only reason the elves are in the horde, they have rose up past that point but that's why they're in.

[Xiphus]

You never really watched that Lament of the Highbourne, did you? She may act cold and stuff, but she is still pretty loyal to the Blood Elves to the point that she renders assistance whenever she can even if the Blood Elves don't like having more undead (this time, Forsaken) in their turf. And she was practically begging Thrall to let the Blood Elves in. In fact, the newbie quests for Blood Elves were meant to prove that Blood Elves deserve the spot so Sylvanas has something to put on paper when putting out her recommendations to Thrall.

Even the dreadlords said that 'Her heart is still elven'.

This article here points out just how much Sylvanas cares about Blood Elven affairs more eloquently than I can manage:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Sylvanas

[Swerto]

She may care for her sister still, because that was her sister. But she doesn't really care about the race any more then she cared about the humans she fucked over. They're a means to an end, or elves would be running around undercity with forsaken colors on serving Sylvanas.

[Keraph]

They're a means to an end, or elves would be running around undercity with forsaken colors on serving Sylvanas.

That's not necessarily true. Sylvanas maintaining loyalty to the Sin'Dorei wouldn't at all affect whether or not said elves "wore forsaken colors". Her considering the Blood Elves honest allies doesn't mean that the Elves wouldn't still be serving Quel'Thalas first, so that's a bit of a jump.

Personally, I'm not sure what Sylvanas' opinion is regarding her former kin. Evidence points to her still having some sort of connection with them, but time will tell what her true feelings are.

[Swerto]

I probably should point out that my views on sylvanas are opinions based on the actions she has taken in the past, not by lore written down anywhere, so don't take it as anything more than that.

[Taknar]

Guys. I just figured it out. The Bronze Whelp was the hint all along.

It's an undead Broxigar.

[Yatokth]

I probably should point out that my views on sylvanas are opinions based on the actions she has taken in the past, not by lore written down anywhere, so don't take it as anything more than that.

Sylvanas's actions in WC3 are motivated solely and completely by hate.

So it'd be a safe bet that Swerto is right.

[Keraph]

Sylvanas's actions in WC3 are motivated solely and completely by hate.

So it'd be a safe bet that Swerto is right.

Trust me, I WANT Swerto to be right (wow, that's wierd to say x3). Her War3 actions definitely reflect this, but her later actions seem sort of conflicting. Now that she's had her time establishing the Forsaken and spreading their will, she's had time to think on her past, and possibly her people. I don't think she would have gotten all "Lament"-y, which seemed like a fairly emotional moment for her, if she truly had no care for her people, is all.

[Rethius]

Its Blizzard trying to make gray areas.

It used to be Horde = Evil, no question.


Now they are trying to make it questionable.

[Netharius]

Its Blizzard trying to make gray areas.
It used to be Horde = Evil, no question.
Now they are trying to make it questionable.
ell oh ell. I could say the same about gnomes.


Trust me, I WANT Swerto to be right (wow, that's wierd to say x3). Her War3 actions definitely reflect this, but her later actions seem sort of conflicting. Now that she's had her time establishing the Forsaken and spreading their will, she's had time to think on her past, and possibly her people. I don't think she would have gotten all "Lament"-y, which seemed like a fairly emotional moment for her, if she truly had no care for her people, is all.My viewpoint is that her actions have always been motivated by three emotions (that stand even now): hate for her enemies (Scourge at first, then later the living), self-disgust/pity (at her fate/people's fate), and burning desire for revenge, regardless the cost.

[Rethius]

ell oh ell. I could say the same about gnomes.


... No you can't.

[Raziel]

... No you can't.

What's a little nuclear fallout between friends, King Bronzebeard?

[Netharius]

... No you can't.Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic so I responded in turn. The Horde and the Alliance have always been in gray area, until Cataclysm. Seems like the Horde is moving more and more towards "evil" with the racist (even to his own peoples, did'ja here about how he's going to boot anyone not a Tauren/Orc out of the center of Orgrimmar?) leader Garrosh taking over.

[Rethius]

Sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic so I responded in turn. The Horde and the Alliance have always been in gray area, until Cataclysm. Seems like the Horde is moving more and more towards "evil" with the racist (even to his own peoples, did'ja here about how he's going to boot anyone not a Tauren/Orc out of the center of Orgrimmar?) leader Garrosh taking over.

Yeah.


What's a little nuclear fallout between friends, King Bronzebeard?

Gnomes lack common sense, that doesn't make them evil.

It makes them foolish.

[Raziel]

I don't think it's racism at all really. It's just Orcish Doctrine of Might Makes Right. Orcs and Tauren are the mightiest of the Horde, and as such, they're the ones most appropriate to defend the city. Elves don't belong there at all, and the Trolls are most likely going to build their own metropolis now that the shore has expanded so well.

The darkspear may be the last Jungle Trolls left, really.

The Tsunami at least took care of Zalazane.

...I hope anyway. Christ..

[Irontoe]

I don't think it's racism at all really. It's just Orcish Doctrine of Might Makes Right. Orcs and Tauren are the mightiest of the Horde, and as such, they're the ones most appropriate to defend the city. Elves don't belong there at all, and the Trolls are most likely going to build their own metropolis now that the shore has expanded so well.

I bet Garrosh tells em to go cohabitate with the goblins.



The darkspear may be the last Jungle Trolls left, really.

The Tsunami at least took care of Zalazane.

ZALAZANE IS DEATHWING!

[Taknar]

Man, the Trolls got their ass kicked by murlocs, and their own home overrun by a warlock under level 10. Even *I* don't want the Trolls defending Orgrimmar.

[Agnarr]

if Bolvar ends up going to the Forsaken...
...you wouldn't be able to get out of the way of my raging boner.

(and now as I've completed reading this thread...)

Thing is Sylvanas is a hunter (well, Dark Ranger), it makes no sense to put TWO hunters next to eachother.
Sure it does. Sylvanas isn't going to teach deadies how to hunt.


This just reminds me of how big of tools the Forsaken really are.

I'm sorry but its true.

I HATE WHAT I AM, I LOVE WHAT I WAS, SO I'M GOING TO FIGHT EVERYTHING THAT I WAS.


wut.
If those fucking Scarlets would just GTFO of Tirisfal, we'd (as a race) be much nicer. And probably grow flower beds.


Forsaken Death Knights are either Forsaken or Ebon blade, not both.
Wut? That's like saying that Forsaken are either Horde or Forsaken.

[Beetlegeuse]

The thought of it being Bolvar at all makes my inner child giggle. You see, I ate this morning - and it seems ridiculous even through the stomach acid. Still, there's something wonderfully insidious about the idea - after all, gee... has it never happened that a champion of the Alliance has fallen to something completely unexpected? (Cough) Arthas. (Cough)

However, the fact that ol' Lexy horfed a mighty horf on the Wraithgate would tend to make reanimation a bit sketchy at best. That would be one fun puzzle to put back together - Skeleton champion? Hah. I'd put him out front or in the back sewer to greet incoming Allies. Let's just hope that the Scourge doesn't pick up Sarulfang the Younger for Icecrown. What if his daddy was around? Let the good times commence!

Still, the good grime is on Nathanos. With all that's going to happen around the Plaguelands, as well as the fact that Sylvannas has been unveiling her Dark Ranger-teer club up in Northrend (See Vengeance Landing) she'd definitely enjoy having a new Ranger-One around. Besides, she's on such good terms with the rotter - neither of them can go home to their once-people. All you writers out there, it's begging for a good late-night necrophile fan-fiction. Hint Hint.

As for the notion of Balnazzar. I couldn't laugh harder. Ok, I can, but it'd be much harder to accomplish that hardness of laughter without replacing some parts I'm using right now. It's bad enough they trusted a Nathrezim once. But Twice? I'd be begging to /gquit my own faction. Besides, I was under the impression Balnazzar's remains were claimed by the Scourge and were instrumental in the creation of Blood Specialization for Death Knights.

[Yichimet]

I'd much rather it be Bolvar. The Horde is potentially losing some of its best leaders in the expansion--Thrall, Cairne--and the Alliance sits pretty having lost only Bolvar, who technically was never a leader anyway, just a regent while Varian was off having rage-inspired adventures (and usurping player accomplishment by killing Onyxi--...oh wait...). In a strict sense of reciprocity, I'd like to see something "shocking" happen like Bolvar's side-switcheroo so that I'm not the only one pissed about what's happening with my faction's leaders. :P

[Rethius]

I'd much rather it be Bolvar. The Horde is potentially losing some of its best leaders in the expansion--Thrall, Cairne--and the Alliance sits pretty having lost only Bolvar, who technically was never a leader anyway, just a regent while Varian was off having rage-inspired adventures (and usurping player accomplishment by killing Onyxi--...oh wait...). In a strict sense of reciprocity, I'd like to see something "shocking" happen like Bolvar's side-switcheroo so that I'm not the only one pissed about what's happening with my faction's leaders. :P

I see you want us to get dragged into that pit of despair with you. . .

No thanks, I like the high ground.

[Ryoku]

I'd much rather it be Bolvar. The Horde is potentially losing some of its best leaders in the expansion--Thrall, Cairne--and the Alliance sits pretty having lost only Bolvar, who technically was never a leader anyway, just a regent while Varian was off having rage-inspired adventures (and usurping player accomplishment by killing Onyxi--...oh wait...). In a strict sense of reciprocity, I'd like to see something "shocking" happen like Bolvar's side-switcheroo so that I'm not the only one pissed about what's happening with my faction's leaders. :P

Then we can find some new hero NPCs to take their place.

We have no idea if Cairne is truly leaving us, and if he does we have absolutely no idea what kind of character his son will have.

Really, Bolvar becoming a forsaken would be completely cheese-o-rific. The traits and ideals that made Bolvar badass are a 180 degree turn from the Forsaken, and I don't know about you but my idea of a great replacement faction leader is not some rehashed immolated Corpse with a neutered character rotting it up next to the Banshee Queen.

[Irontoe]

The traits and ideals that made Bolvar badass are a 180 degree turn from the Forsaken.

Kind of like Sylvanas?

Pretty sure the Forsaken weren't always bitter psychopaths bent on the destruction of the living.











But no, there's no way in hell it's Bolvar. Read the note. Does that sound like Bolvar? It's much more likely to be Blightcaller or that assassin guy from WC3 that ran around with Sylvanas... what's his face...

[Mohan]

Y'all are wrong. It's gonna Lt. Blurp from Wintergrasp.

I would totally follow a dude named Blurp.

[opalexian]

Bolvar makes no sense, even if he did go Forsaken. He was a city leader and an Alliance hero who was able to solo Onyxia's elite guards by himself...

King Poopiepants would never suffer an undead to be anywhere near his throne. Bolivar coming to Horde would be awesome, especially if the rumors are true and Thrall becomes the next guardian (meaning the Horde essentially 'loses' him.) If nearly half the craziness happens that has been flying around, we will need a strong force for good on the Horde.

PS-WTB troll cap city, PST.

[Ryoku]

Y'all are wrong. It's gonna Lt. Blurp from Wintergrasp.

I would totally follow a dude named Blurp.

That guy's badass.

[Fhenrir]

We have no idea if Cairne is truly leaving us, and if he does we have absolutely no idea what kind of character his son will have.

Correct me if I'm mistaken in this information, but I'd heard it was already confirmed that Cairne is going to be killed in the next expansion?

Also, regarding the Horde having to replace their heroes: The Horde as a faction has already had significantly more characters from it die, most often as cheesy uninspired boss fights in instances. Kael, Zul'jin, and Kargath all come to mind off the top of my head. Have we ever even fought an Alliance character as a boss?

Personally I'm not attached enough to the characters anymore to regret it if the Horde's confirmed bamfs all get killed off, but the track record for Alliance heroes living to Horde heroes living is ridiculous. Muradin was fucking DEVOURED BY FROSTMOURNE. Oh wait... he just bumped his head and fell unconscious for 5 years or so, it's cool.

[Necroxis]

Correct me if I'm mistaken in this information, but I'd heard it was already confirmed that Cairne is going to be killed in the next expansion?

Also, regarding the Horde having to replace their heroes: The Horde as a faction has already had significantly more characters from it die, most often as cheesy uninspired boss fights in instances. Kael, Zul'jin, and Kargath all come to mind off the top of my head. Have we ever even fought an Alliance character as a boss?

Personally I'm not attached enough to the characters anymore to regret it if the Horde's confirmed bamfs all get killed off, but the track record for Alliance heroes living to Horde heroes living is ridiculous. Muradin was fucking DEVOURED BY FROSTMOURNE. Oh wait... he just bumped his head and fell unconscious for 5 years or so, it's cool.

Muradin was devoured by Frostmourne? Perhaps you should go back and watch the cinema from War3 again...because that definitely doesn't happen.

[Swerto]

War3 just kind of left it open to interpretation, there was no retcon there. It just showed the crystal explode and muradin fall on the ground with blood around him, in WoW the same thing happened without the blood (because there is a major lack of it in WoW) followed by Muradin getting up (presumably hours or even days later) and wandering out the cave going 'WTF? WHERE AM I? WHO AM I?


Also I wouldn't consider Cairne a badass, the only mission he showed badass-ery in the entirety of the War3 campaign was the 'rpg through the fiery caves we go' mission . Other than that he's just grandpa leading a tribe of cow people.

I'm still pissed off about Zul'jin though. WTB Amani trolls back.

Kael died in a way I can live with, he went nuts and we put him down. Good for him!

[Fhenrir]

Muradin was devoured by Frostmourne? Perhaps you should go back and watch the cinema from War3 again...because that definitely doesn't happen.

Well not literally, but when I played through it I always assumed that Frostmourne had taken his soul. I admit the interpretation could've been off, but that's how I always saw it. At the very least the bugger was confirmed dead until they retconned him.


Edit: Regarding Muradin being dead, supposedly there is proof within the sound bytes from WC3 in these three clips: H09Arthas21 L07AAxeman07 L07ABaelgun46. There's also circumstantial evidence in Arthas announcing his death upon returning to the camp, Muradin's blood being removed in the newer scene, and Arthas hearing the echoes of his voice along with several other people he'd betrayed/killed in his head as he ascended to the throne.

I'd really love to hear the sound bytes listed above, but this laptop doesn't have WarCraft and my disks are packed. I shoulda made a Battlenet account!

[Swerto]

He was assumed dead, there was no retcon, just an addendum.

[Rethius]

I wish I could have seen what Swerto and Yat said after my last reply here.






Btw: Muradin was too epic to die. And SOMEONE from Arthas' past, whom he was close to had to be alive for the final showdown.

And no, Jaina isn't coming. I will slap that bitch if she tries.

Because we all know as soon as Arthas drops to 2%, she will jump out. . .

"NO! Stop!" *Teleports the entire raid out of the citadel.*




... And then a pissed off raid group kills and loots Jaina.

OH YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

[Swerto]

I'm sure there will be different versions of the Arthas fight for Horde and Alliance, considering you're fighting on airships to get to him first.


Sylvanas (and her new sidekick) for Horde.

Jaina and Muradin for Alliance.

[Rethius]

#$%& no.


We're not taking Jaina. She is an Orc shagging coward.


Why don't we bring someone who actually has the balls to beat the snot out of Arthas?


Like Varian.

[Swerto]

She has the balls to beat the shit out of him, or did you forget that he totally dumped her ass in favor of destroying his homeland? I think she's a little ticked off at him.

Hell hath no fury Rethius, hell hath no fury.

[Amoola]

She might have shagged an orc but that was a rebound affair. *nods*

I'm willing to bet that for what Arthas has done she would be more then ready to kick his ass to hell and back and then some.

[Raziel]

I suppose Onyxia is an Alliance Hero
And so is Illidan, in some sense.
Prince Galen of Stromgarde, sorta; ending that family line.

[Ryoku]

She has the balls to beat the shit out of him, or did you forget that he totally dumped her ass in favor of destroying his homeland? I think she's a little ticked off at him.

Hell hath no fury Rethius, hell hath no fury.

She actually dumped him in favor of focusing on her studies as a mage of Dalaran.

Bitch deserved everything she got.

[Necroxis]

I hit up the ptr tonight and got a friend to screenshot the guy who has replaced Varimathras. I was a bit disappointed, seeing as he was completely new.

Well...here ya go.

Varimathras' Replacement. (http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee175/Rubyflames/WoWScrnShot_100209_002227.jpg?t=1254468351)

[Irontoe]

You @#$% kidding me?

I mean, I suppose I get the reasoning (Orgrimmar, particularly Garrosh Hellscream, exerting control over Sylvanas), but the dev who posted that note is a dickhead.

[Ryoku]

.... Wow.

What a douchebag, and what a lame replacement.

They could have at least got a fucking Death Knight..

[Swerto]

-_-


Seriously, why?


I WANT BOLVAR DAMN YOU!

[Xiphus]

That goes in line with Sylvannas being the Horde's lapdog though. Having a Kor'kron Captain, of all people, being the advisor. But it would probably mean the Forsaken are getting more warlike.

What I don't like is that it will merely serve the Horde agenda now.

[Maithanet]

Oh hello there Orcs ALL OVER Undercity.

[Swerto]

Well... I'll be playing my Worgen more than I thought I would.

There is no way I am RPing some orc's bitch.

[Alphaeus]

"Hey, Sylvanas, let's uh.. give you a HAND with that whole 'keeping the Forsaken in line thing'. We don't want any REPEATS of what HAPPENED in the EPIC QUEST LINE, right, darling?"

"SEXISTS! JUST BECAUSE I HAVE TITS AND SPENT THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS OF THIS GAME BOUNCING THEM BOREDLY, YOU THINK I CAN'T BE A REAL LEADER WITHOUT A MAN BEHIND ME!"

[Necroxis]

Yeah I don't think it's so much as she wants him, but perhaps this is the shift of the Orcs beginning to actually "advise" the Forsaken (Read: Sending tons of Orcs to keep them in line).

I could see Garrosh easily deciding to take Sylvanas out of power because she's unreasonable or will not work with him. The Kor'kron are already stationed in Undercity ready to wtfpwn the Forsaken back into line.

No more Putresses...

[Keraph]

Oooh, the rage. Must...make...Horde....pay....

[Broxigan]

Oooh, the rage. Must...make...Horde....pay....

I love all the orcs in the Apothecary. :3

[Agnarr]

Looks like Putress blew his wad too soon.


I love all the orcs in the Apothecary. :3

And WTF are orcs doing in the Apothecary?!

Orc: "Ohh, what this bottle do? Zug chug! Me not feel too well. Me feel like..." *dies*

Apothecary: *sighs* "Another cleanup job."

[Xiphus]

Looks like Putress blew his wad too soon.



And WTF are orcs doing in the Apothecary?!

Orc: "Ohh, what this bottle do? Zug chug! Me not feel too well. Me feel like..." *dies*

Apothecary: *sighs* "Another cleanup job."

More like 'make sure they aren't making something suspicious'. The Orcs are not stupid, you know. They know those bottles in there contain poisons or worse!

[Broxigan]

Looks like Putress blew his wad too soon.



And WTF are orcs doing in the Apothecary?!

Orc: "Ohh, what this bottle do? Zug chug! Me not feel too well. Me feel like..." *dies*

Apothecary: *sighs* "Another cleanup job."

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/leviathonlx2/WoWScrnShot_100209_032506.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/leviathonlx2/WoWScrnShot_100209_032501.jpg

Fuck yeah Thrall! Don't trust them!

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/leviathonlx2/WoWScrnShot_100209_032158.jpg

[Lythas]

...this, uh. This actually makes me laugh. A lot.

[Ryoku]

I'm begining to like this Garrosh!

Fuckyea! Orc powah!

Now we just need our mans in Silvermoon to ensure we're keeping THOSE pink skins in line. Maybe fortify their walls into something that can actually withstand some cannonfire.

Change is still dumb though.

[Xiphus]

Nah, Blood Elves won't be getting that treatment seeing that they didn't arouse any suspicions. In fact, that little stunt the Blood Elves pulled in Quel'danas more or less cemented trust in them.

[Taknar]

Refresh my memory, what did the Blood Elves pull in Quel'Danas?

Also, I think this is altogether a great and engaging change by Thrall (not Garrosh, judging by the NPC text) but I think it's a tad delayed. Wrath Gate, fight Malygos, fight in Ulduar, fight in random tournaments and THEN we go "Hey! Who is watching the undercity? Seriously?" This should have been done immediately after the wrathgate phasing, with Vol'jin taking Varimathras' spot while the rest of the Orcs decided who would be in charge of overseeing the Forsaken.

Better late than never, but the delay screams "Orcish Bureaucracy!" which, while entertaining, doesn't sound quite right.

[Xiphus]

Refresh my memory, what did the Blood Elves pull in Quel'Danas?

Also, I think this is altogether a great and engaging change by Thrall (not Garrosh, judging by the NPC text) but I think it's a tad delayed. Wrath Gate, fight Malygos, fight in Ulduar, fight in random tournaments and THEN we go "Hey! Who is watching the undercity? Seriously?" This should have been done immediately after the wrathgate phasing, with Vol'jin taking Varimathras' spot while the rest of the Orcs decided who would be in charge of overseeing the Forsaken.

Better late than never, but the delay screams "Orcish Bureaucracy!" which, while entertaining, doesn't sound quite right.

It's all the events that accumulated resulting in Quel'danas. First, their willingness to go against Kael'thas. Next, the denouncement of Kael'thas by Silvermoon, as well as the pledge of Lady Liadrin to A'dal, and finally, their dedication to the war effort to halt Kil'jaeden's summoning. If anything, that more or less removed suspicion towards the Blood Elves.

[Maithanet]

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/TwiztedBiDzine/WoWScrnShot_100209_142359.jpg

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt258/TwiztedBiDzine/WoWScrnShot_100209_142711.jpg

This looks like Thrall, not Garrosh. Also Tak, sometimes good idea's don't come right away. Seems safe to assume if someone had thought of it sooner (I... Don't know how they didnt?) it would have happened sooner. I mean, it's only logical explanation.

[Swerto]

They took away all my fucking abominations? Expect me to be in undercity, speaking gutterspeak constantly and insulting every last stinking orc.


I will shed no tears when alliance raids come and kill our guests.

[Yatokth]

They took away all my fucking abominations? Expect me to be in undercity, speaking gutterspeak constantly and insulting every last stinking orc.


I will shed no tears when alliance raids come and kill our guests.

Neither will I, cause that means more alliance corpses to FEED THE MEAT WAGONS.

[Necroxis]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/leviathonlx2/WoWScrnShot_100209_032506.jpg

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/leviathonlx2/WoWScrnShot_100209_032501.jpg

Fuck yeah Thrall! Don't trust them!

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/leviathonlx2/WoWScrnShot_100209_032158.jpg

Is Master Apothecary Faranell still there? I'd be interesting if they added some flavor text to Sylvanas herself. I'm sure she can't be happy whatsoever about Thrall invading HER undercity (Remember she basically tossed out Balnazzar and Detheroc with little else but her wits and Varimathras). Of course she'd probably keep her mouth shut, but perhaps she'll have some interesting things to say in Icecrown regarding this.

[Tylorvias]

What blizz did had potential to be awesome but seems to be fucking lame. At least make the adviser an effing Death Knight.

The removal of the abominations is too much though.

[Necroxis]

What blizz did had potential to be awesome but seems to be fucking lame. At least make the adviser an effing Death Knight.

The removal of the abominations is too much though.

Eh I disagree, the text shows that Thrall doesn't even trust the Abominations made by the RAS...which makes sense. At least from the Alliance-side, Battle for Undercity had tons of Abominations to fight through.

[Alphaeus]

I like the change. The Forsaken have been too shifty for too long.

So, wait, does this mean Blood Elves are 'more Horde' than Undead at this point? ;D

[Tylorvias]

Eh I disagree, the text shows that Thrall doesn't even trust the Abominations made by the RAS...which makes sense. At least from the Alliance-side, Battle for Undercity had tons of Abominations to fight through.

Sure it makes sense...but that doesn't mean it isn't lame. Undercity just won't feel the same without the abominations wandering around.

[Okhu]

I like the change, lol angry undead racists make me lol.

Good thing everyone is entitled to their opinion on this matter. :3


....well....cept the Forsaken.

Cause they totally fuck'd up.

[Necroxis]

Sure it makes sense...but that doesn't mean it isn't lame. Undercity just won't feel the same without the abominations wandering around.

I have a feeling once Garrosh becomes Warchief, he won't give two shits about the Forsaken, since they aren't worthy enough to defend Orgrimmar...I could see him recalling all the Kor'kron back to Org and letting Sylvanas be her badass self.

[Okhu]

That doesn't make any sense at all.

Why would he recall them from a city full of traitorous undead that caused the death of hundreds of taurens, trolls, blood elves, and OH YEAH Orcs.

SERIOUSLY DOUBTFUL SIR.

[Necroxis]

That doesn't make any sense at all.

Why would he recall them from a city full of traitorous undead that caused the death of hundreds of taurens, trolls, blood elves, and OH YEAH Orcs.

SERIOUSLY DOUBTFUL SIR.

Because he's an idiot who would use all of them against the Alliance.

[Xiphus]

Because he's an idiot who would use all of them against the Alliance.

Even if Garrosh is an idiot, he isn't that big of an idiot. It takes a person who lives under the rock to not understand how dangerous the RAS can be after the Wrathgate incident. Even if he thinks that the Forsaken are worthless and not worth his time, he would probably still put Orcs in Undercity as an occupation force to make sure they don't cause another Wrathgate.

[Okhu]

Even if Garrosh is an idiot, he isn't that big of an idiot. It takes a person who lives under the rock to not understand how dangerous the RAS can be after the Wrathgate incident. Even if he thinks that the Forsaken are worthless and not worth his time, he would probably still put Orcs in Undercity as an occupation force to make sure they don't cause another Wrathgate.

Xiphus pretty much summed it up nicely.

[Swerto]

If anything Garrosh will add more people to Undercity, and probably to the other Horde cities as well. He seems the kind of leader who will want to keep in control, and will consider himself the only worthy leader.

[Okhu]

That's some mad dictatorship leader skills yo!

[Swerto]

Look, even the Empire put stormtroopers on Tatooine, you need to make your leadership vocal and well known. If they don't know who's boss they'll obviously revolt.

[Okhu]

Or have an insane Royal Apothecary and a bunch of his agents kill a whole lot of soldiers with a demon.

[Leyujin]

This is kind of awesome, in my opinion. The Forsaken might be pretty badass, but they're not invincible, and they screwed up. Perhaps they'll come up with another big scheme to raise some cain in the future, but for now, they fucked up and they have to pay for it. Shows that there's consequences in the game, and a very big change.

[Fhenrir]

Nobody's pointing out the obvious gameplay buffs to the Horde's guards for UC no longer being undead and three times the size of everyone elses'. Paladin fears all up ons the guards kinda sucked, really.

[Xiphus]

Look, even the Empire put stormtroopers on Tatooine, you need to make your leadership vocal and well known. If they don't know who's boss they'll obviously revolt.

If you are a history buff, I would like to point out that the British also put their own troops in their colonies back when colonization was a big hit amongst the Companies (especially the East India Company). And then there are even earlier examples. Yes, revolts will eventually happen, but it would have happened alot sooner and the damage would have been more severe if the occupiers do not place their own soldiers in the occupied territories.

You can't exercise your control over a teritory if you do not have the means to flex your muscles. Your OWN soldiers, hired by you, trained by your faction, indoctrinated in your own idealogy, are the best available occupying forces you can have available especially seeing that you can at the very least trust them to not rebel! You do not need to be Machiavelli to understand this much.

[Sörröw]

I have a feeling that the Undead race are going to get new skins in their character creation that resemble Orcs and that Orcs are going to get new skins that resemble Undead (both retaining Racials so that you can choose what you want) as the Forsaken experiment on the occupying force of Orcs :D

Atleast, it would be pretty awesome to see a half-orc/undead abomination/thing?

Just thinking out loud, y'know. :)

[Swerto]

If you are a history buff, I would like to point out that the British also put their own troops in their colonies back when colonization was a big hit amongst the Companies (especially the East India Company). And then there are even earlier examples. Yes, revolts will eventually happen, but it would have happened alot sooner and the damage would have been more severe if the occupiers do not place their own soldiers in the occupied territories.

You can't exercise your control over a teritory if you do not have the means to flex your muscles. Your OWN soldiers, hired by you, trained by your faction, indoctrinated in your own idealogy, are the best available occupying forces you can have available especially seeing that you can at the very least trust them to not rebel! You do not need to be Machiavelli to understand this much.
I am a history buff but I think pulling real life politics and history out my ass to compare them to WoW is lame.

[Xiphus]

I am a history buff but I think pulling real life politics and history out my ass to compare them to WoW is lame.

I am just pushing my point that Garrosh isn't idiot enough to not occupy Undercity, based on the examples in history as well as the reasoning behind it.