Shamans and Stunlocks

[opalexian]

Shamans and stunlocks-WTFGODDAMMITBBQ

I'll admit I've been very lazy and not looked up much on it, but every shaman I've talked to is like 'yeah, fuck rogues.' I've spent so much time mashing a key-just about anything instacast-that I don't know how my keyboard has survived this long. Don't say 'trinket'-that's horseshit since they can just stunlock you right after. I'm sick of rogueraep. >: (

[Keraph]

Know which stuns to just eat, and which are actually worth trinketing. It's not much, and won't entirely solve your problem, but it's a step in the right direction. I can't remember rogue skills off the top of my head, but whatever stun they open with, try to just take, then I think it's the second one you wanna break. Obviously, don't burn trinket on sap. Don't be that guy.

[Catilyn]

Death Knights have exactly the same problem.
Icebound is easily counterable, if you know what your doing.
On top of that, our self-heals to go crap because of wounding poison, and we can be kited the entire fight because of crippling. And THEN there's the disarm!!

I feel your pain.

[opalexian]

Anymore I'm usually just sapped for the lulz (and not just Illisade ; b) so that's kinda irrelevant. Also you should be able to trade old trikets for better ones with minimal honor if it's a classes only fucking survival mechanic against certain other classes. Is there seriously any other class/anti-class that needs an item to be able to fight their class-killer ability? -_-

Edit-

I feel your pain.

Until the cleansing totem gets nerfed then you faceroll me and lol. I seriously think that the case of 'BOO HOO SHAMAN ARE TOO OP FOR ME' that came in the first week of the game never quite left for some people so it just won't die.

[Abric]

If you are getting stun locked a lot; then you are probably taking a stun-loss talented rogue. While all of us can do it - we still have one talent tree that is specific to doing it.

The first stun you will get is Cheap Shot (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=1833)... eat it. Next you will get a 5-combo Kidney Shot (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=8643)... that is the one you want to get out of with your trinket.

Of course, there are a lot more tricks for them to do to you after the fact. If you are fighting a Subtlety rogue, then you are a victim of cooldowns. They are going to throw a lot of cooldowns at you, and there is zero you can do about it - except catch them between cooldowns (which isn't likely! There is a lot of hiding a rogue can do).

Biggest way to stop the rogue stun is to bring a friend. Then, just have them stun the rogue - that will give you enough time to get out of your 3-6 second stun... then annihilate them. A rogue out of stealth is a stomp in the making.

[Okhu]

Save your trinket for Kidney Punch.

Rogues are suppose to eat Shamans and Warlocks. *Shrug*

If you're elemental send the Rogue flying with TS (Apparently theres a bug that lets you use it while stunned... not sure if they fixed that. )

or just be with friends. Since Rogues really suck when they have to kill more then one person without going back into stealth.

[opalexian]

Oh, I should prolly mention I'm enh so I'm close enough to lick.

DON'T JUDGE ME. T_T

[Catilyn]

Until the cleansing totem gets nerfed then you faceroll me and lol. I seriously think that the case of 'BOO HOO SHAMAN ARE TOO OP FOR ME' that came in the first week of the game never quite left for some people so it just won't die.

Don't forget the fact that it's literally impossible to stay within melee range of Ghost Wolf, because of the immunity to snares.

There's nothing I can do against a Shaman who knows their stuff... thankfully, most don't.

[Broxigan]

(Apparently theres a bug that lets you use it while stunned... not sure if they fixed that. ).

This was an actual change in one of the patches that allows TS to be used while stunned. I will find the patch notes in a bit.

[Broxigan]

Found it.

Thunderstorm can now be cast while stunned.


http://www.mmo-champion.com//index.php?page=835

[Rethius]

Oh, I should prolly mention I'm enh so I'm close enough to lick.

DON'T JUDGE ME. T_T

I respect enhancement shamans, takes balls to play one imo.

All the advice I can give you mate, is try to always have flame shock on them.

Oh and keep that aoe fire totem thing down. (cause they can just cloak of shadows out of your flame shock.)

Your wolves seem to be good at catching rogues, spirit walk and all is helpful for covering ground, eh?

[opalexian]

I respect enhancement shamans, takes balls to play one imo.

All the advice I can give you mate, is try to always have flame shock on them.

Oh and keep that aoe fire totem thing down. (cause they can just cloak of shadows out of your flame shock.)

Your wolves seem to be good at catching rogues, spirit walk and all is helpful for covering ground, eh?

Oh, I try to flame shock every chance I can-problem is getting it on them (also helps that they do it from behind, the little fuckers *grumble*) I am often stunlocked before I even have totems down, although if they time it right or sprint they can likely miss the magma totem pulses and then it's still too late.

By 'spirit walk' I think you mean 'astral shift' which is a 41-point talent in elem. Should be in enh IMO. : /

Wolves is the best key to mash, but even then it's usually too late. Which brings us back to the stupid fucking trinket... -_-

Oh, and Caitlyn? Ghost wolf against a DK? Really? Unless you've death gripped recently doggie is worthless. Fortunately a lot of DKs don't know their shit either so I can usually heal through the damage enough to kill them. AT LEAST THERE'S SOMEONE I CAN KILL. T_T

[Rethius]

My world pvp buddy is a Enhancement Shaman, and he has this thing where when he pops his wolves he can move faster.

I've seen him mow down rogues before, I'll have to ask him more about it.

I just recall him surviving a few stuns, trinketing and popping his wolves. Said rogue sprinted off and used vanish.

But his speed buff kept him right on the rogue, so the wolves locked on and tore him out of stealth.

Shit hit the fan for mr rogue.


To be fair my guild mate does have some nice resilience, enough to survive a stun lock as if he was in plate.

[opalexian]

My res and HP are ok-working on that, but that's a grind of course, and I got started REAAAAAAL late (about 3 weeks ago to be exact, and that was before I hit 80 >_<) That ability sounds like a glyph-I'll have to look it up. Found a nice one that buffed their damage by 30%, so it's possible there's one to increase speed or haste when they're out too. WTB more glyph slots.

[Raziel]

Doesn't Tremor totem break stuns/saps/sleeps/etc?
Doesn't Magma totem still break stealth?

[Illisade]

I wouldn't trinket out of kidney shot, the best thing you can do right now is build up your health and resilience so you can eat through it. When fighting rogues you always want to trinket out of the blind.

[Yatokth]

My world pvp buddy is a Enhancement Shaman, and he has this thing where when he pops his wolves he can move faster.

I've seen him mow down rogues before, I'll have to ask him more about it.

I just recall him surviving a few stuns, trinketing and popping his wolves. Said rogue sprinted off and used vanish.

But his speed buff kept him right on the rogue, so the wolves locked on and tore him out of stealth.

Shit hit the fan for mr rogue.


To be fair my guild mate does have some nice resilience, enough to survive a stun lock as if he was in plate.

It's not a glyph, learn your class. :P

Spirit Walk (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=58876#see-also-other). Learn it, love it, live it.

Do.

Not.

Trinket.

Kidney.

Any good rogue will just blind you. Half the rogue fights I do, I don't even -use- my trinket. You need to basically gear to the point where you can survive a stunlock, and then puppies > BL > FLIP THE FUCK OUT ON HIS SHIT.

Note that you should put up your cleansing totem and your fire nova totem (so you can stuns him) and then when wounding poison is off, get a GIGANTIC hasted/insta-cast heal off. You can also kite him to do this by putting down Earthbind so crippling is useless, snaring him while your wolves beat on him and give you life, and then heal soon as wound poison comes off. Alot of rogues blind here, but thankfully, YOU were a smart shaman and knew to save your trinket for this NINE SECOND UNAVOIDABLE UNCLEANSABLE CC.

You -can- use Flame Shock (like when you're kiting and shit) but they will just cloak it.

Essentially, once you get that heal off, proceed right into the fray and rip him apart. At the start, chain your bash stuns and your fire nova stun in order to get as many hits in as possible, -THEN- kite. It's tough, you have to watch your health level and what your opponent does.

If you get dismantled, kite. Etc...

You probably will not win against a gladiator-level rogue (pretty much nobody except a gladiator-level ret paladin can 1v1) but with proper tactics you should roll over your average 1600 goon. And gear.

[Yichimet]

What Yat said. Even as a resto shaman I won't trinket out of a stunlock, and I have shit for PvP gear. (It mostly winds up with me dead, but if I trinket, I'm DEFINITELY dead.) What you need is a good partner(s) who knows how to peel or CC the rogue off of you, and instant ghost wolf + earthbind is your friend. In almost every match with a DK or rogue I played with my team last night, I spent 3/4 of it in ghost wolf just kiting the shit out of them.

However, you have balls to play as enhancement. A note about Yat's points about hasted/instant heals for enhancement: if you're kiting to get away from the rogue and you're enhancement, you're not going to have instant anything and you probably won't have any maelstrom procs built up either--just hope your puppies crit a lot. ;)

And gear. (Says the resto shaman with 500 resilience...)

[Yichimet]

Doesn't Tremor totem break stuns/saps/sleeps/etc?
Doesn't Magma totem still break stealth?

Tremor totem only breaks fears.

Magma still breaks stealth, but the range on sap is bigger than the radius of magma.

[Cyrass]

Fighting a Rogue as a Shaman is an uphill battle, especially as Enhancement.

A general tip (and advice I should probably follow better myself), is to try to drop a stoneclaw totem whenever you can before swapping it out. The glyph's damage shield will remain on you even if the totem isn't active anymore.

First and foremost, you'll have to survive the Stunlock. Your best tool to survive is Shamanistic Rage. The 30% damage reduction can make or break that situation. Trinketing out of the Kidneyshot is good, but I've recently been finding that it's best to save the trinket until later on. A helpful thing I've found is to keybind Stoneclaw/a totem set containing stoneclaw and mash it while you're stunned. If you're lucky, this will get you a 4k damage shield between stuns, if not it will likely hit the ground after the stuns end. Also, there is a decent chance you'll be dismantled next, don't panic, just focus on totems and spells.

Now you're fighting against cooldowns. Try to force them to use Cloak of Shadows via kiting. Once they do, keep Flameshock on them, blow wolves and beat face. They'll probably pop evasion, use the wolf sprint (Spirit Walk) and strafe away and frost shock them once you reach the distance for the root. Should be enough time for a heal or two.

Speaking of healing: Maelstrom Weapon works on Healing Wave, and this is what you generally should be using this on against Rogues.

And finally, if all this has not gone as planned and you're up against a wall figuratively, hit Wolves. Yes, they'll likely vanish, this is what you want. If nothing else, the Wolves give you 45 seconds of safety. Use this time to heal yourself, drink up and get ready for this whole thing to roll over. Of course, you're probobly doomed at this point, but it's worth fighting it out still


If you're elemental send the Rogue flying with TS (Apparently theres a bug that lets you use it while stunned... not sure if they fixed that. )
Working as intended.

[Cyrass]

You need to basically gear to the point where you can survive a stunlock, and then puppies > BL > FLIP THE FUCK OUT ON HIS SHIT.
You NEED to make sure that they use vanish before this.

Note that you should put up your cleansing totem and your fire nova totem (so you can stuns him) and then when wounding poison is off, get a GIGANTIC hasted/insta-cast heal off.
Rogue poisons can have a fairly high dispel resistance, so be warned that the totem won't always work like you want. Also, Fire Nova stun is a talent (Albeit a very useful one that I -highly- recommend)

Otherwise this information is all pretty good. However, as I said earlier, rogues will be an uphill battle.

[Yatokth]

What Yat said. Even as a resto shaman I won't trinket out of a stunlock, and I have shit for PvP gear. (It mostly winds up with me dead, but if I trinket, I'm DEFINITELY dead.) What you need is a good partner(s) who knows how to peel or CC the rogue off of you, and instant ghost wolf + earthbind is your friend. In almost every match with a DK or rogue I played with my team last night, I spent 3/4 of it in ghost wolf just kiting the shit out of them.

However, you have balls to play as enhancement. A note about Yat's points about hasted/instant heals for enhancement: if you're kiting to get away from the rogue and you're enhancement, you're not going to have instant anything and you probably won't have any maelstrom procs built up either--just hope your puppies crit a lot. ;)

And gear. (Says the resto shaman with 500 resilience...)

Oh I know you won't have any maelstrom procs from kiting, but if you properly used bashes/nova stuns you should have at least a few when you start kiting, the kiting isn't to get an instant heal, it's to get wound poison off so the heal matters.

EDIT: And yeah I know the poison doesn't come right off, which is why I suggested kiting so if it doesn't, you can just wait the duration.

[Cyrass]

EDIT: And yeah I know the poison doesn't come right off, which is why I suggested kiting so if it doesn't, you can just wait the duration.

I know you know, and I just felt that was something that needed to be mentioned. Depending on the rogue's spec, the totem will work less than half the time, so it's best to not count on the totem and the totem alone.

[Yatokth]

I know you know, and I just felt that was something that needed to be mentioned. Depending on the rogue's spec, the totem will work less than half the time, so it's best to not count on the totem and the totem alone.

Indeed, and if he's still hitting you, each hit will re-apply it so good luck getting it off lol.

[opalexian]

nova vs magma is a bit of a conundrum I guess. Don't have the nova talent (my pvp spec is weird....we talked about that last night, Cyrass. I want to know what you think of the crazy shit I came up with >_>) and it takes time for it to go off so you'd have to time it perfectly. I am not totem-micromanaging pro at all. I have stoneclaw buffed all to hell for PVPz (arenas really) so that should help some (although didn't notice it last night : /)

I never seem to last long enough to get blinded. Argh. Working on it tho-almost to 20k health and have 540 res *hugs Yichi* I'm working on it, but 4 days at 80 means I'm kinda dumb.



also my interface may have the pet bar turned off so...I didn't know there was a pet bar. I blame Yat. *hates Yat*

[opalexian]

DAMMIT SERVERS COME BACK UP. I wanna see my pet bar. >_>

I do have to say tho that no matter how good a rogue is at stunlock, if you can pop your puppies, most of them suddenly get very distracted. I guess they get too used to facerape via stunlock and don't know what to do when you actually get a cast off.

Hmm, build up 5 maelstrom procs then kite? A girl can dream, can't she? : /

Oh, and I think you and I are kinda in the same boat, Raz....IIRC you hadn't played your shaman much at all until you transferred him to TN too. I had played the shaman on the other account but she usually just ended up being a healing bitch since she wasn't nearly as geared as the druid (and tanks were needed more anyway.) So my knowledge of what's been done to them in the last 3 years, particularly with enhancement, and ESPECIALLY after LK, kinda fits in a thimble.

[Rethius]

It's not a glyph, learn your class. :P

I'm not a shaman.

[Abric]

Blind does nothing if you are poisoned by the rogue. I suppose if they aren't using Deadly, they use that.

... but then, I'm four months behind on the "new way to do things". Which still makes me right - or at the very least it's what people tell me so I don't yell at them.

[Yatokth]

...No good rogue uses deadly. XD

Crip/Wound I believe, deadly brew applies mind numbing.

If you want DoTs, use Rupture/Garrote.

[Irontoe]

No, Yat, Deadly Brew applies Crippling. The choice is usually between double Wound and Wound/Mind, but if you're forced to fight plate wearers then an argument can be made for applying deadly (since Envenom ignores armor).

[Yatokth]

If a rogue uses deadly on me then I can safely trinket Kidney which blows up their control (the only way they win) that it's not feasible 1v1 imo.

Though thanks for clarification on how deadly brew worked.

[Irontoe]

If a rogue uses deadly on me then I can safely trinket Kidney which blows up their control (the only way they win) that it's not feasible 1v1 imo.

Though thanks for clarification on how deadly brew worked.

Correct, not feasible 1v1. But if you're in a situation where you're in a group trying to burst down a plate wearer, then Blind is pointless. Of course, being the rogue, you're probably stunlocking a healer during that time in any event. I'm just saying that Deadly Poison is useful in certain rare situations.

[Ryoku]

This isn't rogue poison discussion, people, this is shaman discussion, though I have to disagree with you Irontoe: Blind is damn useful in group vs. group PvP.

Basically, from my experience Opal, you have to gain the gear to be able to eat a rogues stunlock (or the stunlocks / spelllocks of many classes really) and depend on your teammates (lolling at you if you judge shaman PvP based on 1v1) to pressure and give you peels.

There is a lot more I would say about Shaman in PvP scenarios, but since this is a stunlock discussion, that is all I know to say.

[Diomades]

As an Elemental Shaman at least, I can't beat a rogue one-on-one. The moment I trinket out of a stun, it's usually followed by a blind. The Rogue goes back into stealth and starts again while I have no escape.

Or, they just keep going, cloak of shadows when I try to do any sort of attack, and kill me before I do any sort of damage to them.

In general, the best solution to beating Rogues as a Shaman in my experience is to not be alone. :D

[Rethius]

As an Elemental Shaman at least, I can't beat a rogue one-on-one. The moment I trinket out of a stun, it's usually followed by a blind. The Rogue goes back into stealth and starts again while I have no escape.

Or, they just keep going, cloak of shadows when I try to do any sort of attack, and kill me before I do any sort of damage to them.

In general, the best solution to beating Rogues as a Shaman in my experience is to not be alone. :D

Yeah.

I personally feel that there is no shame in admitting that you have a near impossible time in downing a certain class, if anything it is proof that blizzard is doing an alright job in balancing the game, right?

I can't beat a good mage in 1 v 1. I CAN'T... IT CAN'T BE DONE... BLARGHHH!

Maybe if he is poorly geared... But thats not the point.

[Diomades]

Yeah.

I personally feel that there is no shame in admitting that you have a near impossible time in downing a certain class, if anything it is proof that blizzard is doing an alright job in balancing the game, right?

I can't beat a good mage in 1 v 1. I CAN'T... IT CAN'T BE DONE... BLARGHHH!

Maybe if he is poorly geared... But thats not the point.

I think there is a problem with it. It's easy to just say "I can't beat that class", because it means you don't have to try fighting them.

I always try to fight rogues. I've been beaten by really bad ones and have beaten a few really bad ones. But it's all very situational with Shaman - do you have the right stuff on hand to take them out in that situation? If so, you might be in with a chance.

Are you next to a cliff? Do they have Cloak of Shadows up? Is your Thunderstorm on cooldown? You might be in with a chance if the answer to all these is "yes".

Of course there's just some rogues that I've escaped from stunlock with and gone on to absolutely owning them, but A) They were in all raiding gear and squishy as hell, so I could kill them before they used Cloak of Shadows. And B) They were just terribad.

Blizzard isn't blancing the game around "This is your anti-class, you will lose to them all the time". The balance blizzard is going for, and I quote, "when you think that every class is a tough fight".

[Yatokth]

Yeah.

I personally feel that there is no shame in admitting that you have a near impossible time in downing a certain class, if anything it is proof that blizzard is doing an alright job in balancing the game, right?

I can't beat a good mage in 1 v 1. I CAN'T... IT CAN'T BE DONE... BLARGHHH!

Maybe if he is poorly geared... But thats not the point.

Actually 1v1 hard counters are examples of poor balance in my opinion. Battles have edges, but they should be winnable by either class, with more skill and gear coming into play than class.

And I find good rogues hard counter me more than any mage actually 1v1. It's pretty sad.

[Rethius]

Actually 1v1 hard counters are examples of poor balance in my opinion. Battles have edges, but they should be winnable by either class, with more skill and gear coming into play than class.

And I find good rogues hard counter me more than any mage actually 1v1. It's pretty sad.

To be fair mate you pack hell-of-a more punch than I do, being arms and all. My main issue with good mages is that I can't mow them down fast enough. And they are certainly the kind of foe who needs to drop as fast as possible.

@ Diomades: Absolutely, I don't think one should give up at all. Exceptions exist in any match which at face value appears to be 'stacked'.

In example, I've been wtfpwned by rogues before. but I think many rogues would agree that a prot warrior vs a rogue is a pretty stacked fight in favor of the warrior, eh?

[Ryoku]

The balance blizzard is going for, and I quote, "when you think that every class is a tough fight".

Are you sure that's in general, or just in regards to Shaman specifically?

EDIT: Yup.

[Yatokth]

To be fair mate you pack hell-of-a more punch than I do, being arms and all. My main issue with good mages is that I can't mow them down fast enough. And they are certainly the kind of foe who needs to drop as fast as possible.

@ Diomades: Absolutely, I don't think one should give up at all. Exceptions exist in any match which at face value appears to be 'stacked'.

In example, I've been wtfpwned by rogues before. but I think many rogues would agree that a prot warrior vs a rogue is a pretty stacked fight in favor of the warrior, eh?

You're losing to mages as Prot? o.O

...How?

And actually it's easier for a rogue (a GOOD one) to beat a prot warrior in most cases, because they don't pack a giant Overpower into their faces like an Arms Warrior does. They have to outlast and control, but it's very doable.

[Rethius]

Are you sure that's in general, or just in regards to Shaman specifically?

Bah humbug, we all know shaman make dog meat out of priests.

Priest: POWER WORD SHIELD!

Shaman: PURGE!

Priest: INNER FIRE!

Shaman: PURGE!

Priest: ...Holy Fire!

Shaman: EARTH SHOCK!

Priest: ... guardian spirit? :(

SHAMAN: JUST PURGE IT!

You're losing to mages as Prot? o.O

...How?

And actually it's easier for a rogue (a GOOD one) to beat a prot warrior in most cases, because they don't pack a giant Overpower into their faces like an Arms Warrior does. They have to outlast and control, but it's very doable.

I get frozen in place, they stay close enough that I can't charge out of it with Warbringer, so I toss my heroic throw to silence them.

Resume wailing on the mage... They blink out of my stuns, frost me again... Burn trinket, charge...

They blink again.

They frost me... I use my spell reflect, they wise up and wait for it to burn out.

they frost bolt me down.

Edit: In short, a clever devil, is a clever devil.

As for rogues...

MAH DAMAGE SHIELD BRINGS ALL THE ROGUES TO THE GRAVEYARD.


2edit: Maybe I am just doing it wrong.

[Diomades]

Bah humbug, we all know shaman make dog meat out of priests.

Priest: POWER WORD SHIELD!

Shaman: PURGE!

Priest: INNER FIRE!

Shaman: PURGE!

Priest: ...Holy Fire!

Shaman: EARTH SHOCK!

Priest: ... guardian spirit? :(

SHAMAN: JUST PURGE IT!

If only it were that easy. In a one on one fight it's certainly doable, but any good Priest that isn't shadow can just turtle up so much better than a Shaman can. Purge spam will get all their buffs off, sure. But it's not going to kill them, and typically they can do more damage to you than you can to them while you're ripping off all their buffs.

[Yatokth]

Bah humbug, we all know shaman make dog meat out of priests.

Priest: POWER WORD SHIELD!

Shaman: PURGE!

Priest: INNER FIRE!

Shaman: PURGE!

Priest: ...Holy Fire!

Shaman: EARTH SHOCK!

Priest: ... guardian spirit? :(

SHAMAN: JUST PURGE IT!



I get frozen in place, they stay close enough that I can't charge out of it with Warbringer, so I toss my heroic throw to silence them.

Resume wailing on the mage... They blink out of my stuns, frost me again... Burn trinket, charge...

They blink again.

They frost me... I use my spell reflect, they wise up and wait for it to burn out.

they frost bolt me down.

Edit: In short, a clever devil, is a clever devil.

As for rogues...

MAH DAMAGE SHIELD BRINGS ALL THE ROGUES TO THE GRAVEYARD.


2edit: Maybe I am just doing it wrong.

lol I forgot about damage shield.

Trick with mages is, make them blow their escapes. Use Heroic Throw offensively if you can (does shield bash blanket silence with that talent? Use it as you charge) and you can also intercept, so save that for blink.

Save Trinket for Deep Freeze, it gets rid of stun AND the freeze. Charge/Intercept out of any other roots. Blink has a 20 second CD, and so does Charge, but you have intercept for the inbetween.

If they Ice Block, do NOT shatter it. It's a waste of time, puts you in the wrong stance, and good ones just cancel. It's better to let them stay in the block so your charges can come off CD - you have two charges, he has one blink. GG.

I guess it'd be harder w/o Second Wind every time you get rooted, but with good spell reflect timing you can usually stuff almost every shatter (where their burst comes from) and if they're reduced to spamming ice lance at you than you can pretty easily outdamage that with SHIELDS TO FACE.

As Arms I spend most of my time fighting mages with my shield on, lol.

Obviously you'll still lose to really good ones, but your average mage shouldn't be -too- snarky.

EDIT: Oh purge spam would be so effective if it didn't take a GCD that you need for DAMAGE. Enhancement does rip priests, but ele doesn't really.

[Rethius]

lol I forgot about damage shield.

Trick with mages is, make them blow their escapes. Use Heroic Throw offensively if you can (does shield bash blanket silence with that talent? Use it as you charge) and you can also intercept, so save that for blink.

Save Trinket for Deep Freeze, it gets rid of stun AND the freeze. Charge/Intercept out of any other roots. Blink has a 20 second CD, and so does Charge, but you have intercept for the inbetween.

If they Ice Block, do NOT shatter it. It's a waste of time, puts you in the wrong stance, and good ones just cancel. It's better to let them stay in the block so your charges can come off CD - you have two charges, he has one blink. GG.

I guess it'd be harder w/o Second Wind every time you get rooted, but with good spell reflect timing you can usually stuff almost every shatter (where their burst comes from) and if they're reduced to spamming ice lance at you than you can pretty easily outdamage that with SHIELDS TO FACE.

As Arms I spend most of my time fighting mages with my shield on, lol.

Obviously you'll still lose to really good ones, but your average mage shouldn't be -too- snarky.

EDIT: Oh purge spam would be so effective if it didn't take a GCD that you need for DAMAGE. Enhancement does rip priests, but ele doesn't really.

Good points, I'll have to think about these... But switching to berserker stance for the intercept takes out a ton of my rage. And burns my Blood Rage to pull off the intercept.

Also, one of my best abilities, revenge is taken out of the picture with mages, since they don't melee attack. (to Block)

And I would imagine I am not going to dodge a frostbolt because any self respecting mage is going to be hit capped, right?

If only it were that easy. In a one on one fight it's certainly doable, but any good Priest that isn't shadow can just turtle up so much better than a Shaman can. Purge spam will get all their buffs off, sure. But it's not going to kill them, and typically they can do more damage to you than you can to them while you're ripping off all their buffs.

A valid point.

But a priest will burn a ton of their mana if they try restoring their buffs.

[Yatokth]

Good points, I'll have to think about these... But switching to berserker stance for the intercept takes out a ton of my rage. And burns my Blood Frenzy to pull off the intercept.

Also, one of my best abilities, revenge is taken out of the picture with mages, since they don't melee attack. (to Block)

And I would imagine I am not going to dodge a frostbolt because any self respecting mage is going to be hit capped, right?



A valid point.

But a priest will burn a ton of their mana if they try restoring their buffs.

Revenge is useless, but Warbringer makes it so you can Intercept/Charge/Intervene in any stance - just make sure you have intercept on your bar for D stance.

And Bloodrage should be used when needed, don't worry about 'burning' it, Charge gets you plenty of rage later on.

[Rethius]

Revenge is useless, but Warbringer makes it so you can Intercept/Charge/Intervene in any stance - just make sure you have intercept on your bar for D stance.

And Bloodrage should be used when needed, don't worry about 'burning' it, Charge gets you plenty of rage later on.

Whoa... I forgot that I could use intercept in defensive stance.


I... er... *Seppuku*

[Diomades]

A valid point.

But a priest will burn a ton of their mana if they try restoring their buffs.

But a priest also has mana burns and - in most cases - a lot more longevity than a Shaman, too. Elemental is a tough fight with a good Priest, any sort of priest. I've lost more fights against priests than I've won, I've just not got nearly as many defensive cooldowns.

[Ryoku]

Bah humbug, we all know shaman make dog meat out of priests.

Priest: POWER WORD SHIELD!

Shaman: PURGE!

Priest: INNER FIRE!

Shaman: PURGE!

Priest: ...Holy Fire!

Shaman: Wind Shear! fix'd

Priest: ... guardian spirit? :(

SHAMAN: JUST PURGE IT!

Lol? I'm resto buddy, a fight against any disc priest is a long and hard one, and in an arena situation probably 90% of the time I ever try and purge off pain supp or PW:S I purge something less signifigant off.

Usually if in 3 purges the pain supp still doesn't come off I say fuck it because 19 times out of 20 I or one of my teammates requires healing / I'm being mana burned to oblivion and can't afford to continue wasting GCDs.

EDIT: Though thinking about it I suppose I could try purging ahead of time so that when the Pain Supp DOES pop up I can bop it off real quick.

[Rethius]

I'm going to be honest with you when I say I've never heard of Wind Shear.

But then again I am pretty ignorant of classes I haven't played. Which I know is terrible, cause its always good to know thy enemy.

[Ryoku]

I'm going to be honest with you when I say I've never heard of Wind Shear.

But then again I am pretty ignorant of classes I haven't played. Which I know is terrible, cause its always good to know thy enemy.

Wind shear is new to the patch.

Basically they got rid of the interrupt from Earth Shock and gave it some crappy melee haste reduction effect, and changed Wind Shock to Wind Shear and took it off the Shock CD so that you can use your various shocks (which are staple abilities of all of the shaman trees) and still have that interrupt ready.

[Irontoe]

I have to disagree with you Irontoe: Blind is damn useful in group vs. group PvP.

Reading comprehension FTW.

[Ryoku]

Reading comprehension FTW.

From what I read, you're either fighting a group of people with your group of people (like arena), or you're in a group of people trying to fight a single plate wearer.

In which case you shouldn't even need the blind to kill a single person with your group, making the statement redundant.

Logical thought process ftw.

[Irontoe]

What you read:

group vs. group PvP.

What I wrote:

group trying to burst down a plate wearer

It is pointless to use Blind on a plate wearer that is being bursted, for obvious reasons. It might be more effective in that instance for a rogue to be using Deadly Poison and Envenom to contribute to damage.

[Yatokth]

What you read:



What I wrote:



It is pointless to use Blind on a plate wearer that is being bursted, for obvious reasons. It might be more effective in that instance for a rogue to be using Deadly Poison and Envenom to contribute to damage.

A logical conclusion, the thing is, most rogues run their standard build that does NOT include deadly in order to be able to blind their target (say they're on a healer and then switch to a low HP plate wearer) so switching poisons and attacks is rarely feasible - so you don't SEE it alot, because you can't really feasibly switch poisons that quickly.

[Raziel]

Tremor totem only breaks fears.

Since when? That sucks. Tremor totem was the greatest utility Shaman had; along with Grounding Totem.

Against Rogues, it was always Tremor/Magma/Poison Clensing/Wrath.

[Irontoe]

Since when?

Since before the time I knew tremor totems existed.

[Ryoku]

Since when? That sucks. Tremor totem was the greatest utility Shaman had; along with Grounding Totem.

Against Rogues, it was always Tremor/Magma/Poison Clensing/Wrath.

I think it was still doing it in BC. Not sure.

It was way overpowered, bro. Way overpowered.

[Cyrass]

Since when?
Since forever.

[Raziel]

Nuh-uh. Not when I was playing 3 years ago.

[opalexian]

Nuh-uh. Not when I was playing 3 years ago.

Yes huh. Tremor totems may have done sleep too, but so few mobs ever did it then (or now) that that's irrelevant and they either took it off the tooltip and/or the code. Stoneclaw is where it's at now-they've changed it a lot and with the right talents and glyph it's crazy. Oh, cleansing totem does both now, and resto has a talent that lets you get rid of a poison, disease, and curse (liek whoa.) You have a lot to catch up on :D

[Ryoku]

Resto also has this CRAZY new ability that lets you heal multiple targets in one cast on a mechanic like chain lightning!

[Diomades]

As long as I've played a shaman - which was pre-BC - tremor totem only removed fears and the like. Never stuns.

[Okhu]

A logical conclusion, the thing is, most rogues run their standard build that does NOT include deadly in order to be able to blind their target (say they're on a healer and then switch to a low HP plate wearer) so switching poisons and attacks is rarely feasible - so you don't SEE it alot, because you can't really feasibly switch poisons that quickly.

The trick is to have like 6 different daggers with different poisons on them and macro them so you can switch ON THA FLY!

[Cyrass]

Nuh-uh. Not when I was playing 3 years ago.

Yes, when you were playing 3 years ago. It has always broken Fear, Sleep and Seduce. It has -never- broken stun ever.

[opalexian]

If only it were that easy. In a one on one fight it's certainly doable, but any good Priest that isn't shadow can just turtle up so much better than a Shaman can. Purge spam will get all their buffs off, sure. But it's not going to kill them, and typically they can do more damage to you than you can to them while you're ripping off all their buffs.

...but doing it to a paladin gives me a boner the size of Texas >_>

Holy priests seem able to heal through whatever DPS I can do, purging or no, plus put on the pain, while I can get nailed easily by them : /

I have found after finding my pet bar that rogues really aren't that much of a problem after all. Pounce, everyone's hasted, run circles around the rogue, raepz. Good times! (Except when they're watching and know doggies are down -_-)

[Diomades]

...but doing it to a paladin gives me a boner the size of Texas >_>

Paladins are fun fights if A) The paladin is super bad and B) you get enough burst out on them. Especially as a Tauren. Get them down to low health, warstomp and insta-Lava Burst to finish them off.

Mind you, it takes a pretty bad Paladin to let me do that to them.

[Ryoku]

Paladins are fun fights if A) The paladin is super bad and B) you get enough burst out on them. Especially as a Tauren. Get them down to low health, warstomp and insta-Lava Burst to finish them off.

Mind you, it takes a pretty bad Paladin to let me do that to them.

Lawl. It's even more fun and satisfying 1v1ing a terribad Retadin as Resto. 10 minute fight right there.

[Taknar]

If only it were that easy. In a one on one fight it's certainly doable, but any good Priest that isn't shadow can just turtle up so much better than a Shaman can. Purge spam will get all their buffs off, sure. But it's not going to kill them, and typically they can do more damage to you than you can to them while you're ripping off all their buffs.

a) Inner Fire can no longer be purged, just melee'd off.

b) Can someone teach me to turtle up when I can't cast healing spells and my sole CC is trinketed out of (or in the case or Warriors/DKs never did anything in the first place)?

[Kaliera]

b) Can someone teach me to turtle up when I can't cast healing spells and my sole CC is trinketed out of (or in the case or Warriors/DKs never did anything in the first place)?

Learn to fake cast, if you haven't already. Warriors will destroy you if you cannot juke pummel/unrelenting assault. If you're silenced though, you're best off praying to whatever deity you happen to believe in.

[Tsu]

really not sure why you resto shaman having a tough time with rogue

earthbind kite with searing totem down, alternate frost and flame shock depending on if you need more breathing room and/or earthbind isnt snaring him at the time for some reason. run around in circles with cleansing totem and ghost wolf, and eventually you win unless they outgear you and are relatively non retarded.

you can trinket KS if you have a searing totem up that's like 10 yards from rogue, if you're rolling flame shock on him it'll keep him not able to bandage, and if he cloaks hes getting a reopen on you anyways so its pointless to save trinket for blind really tbh

worst case scenario they blind you, cloak and bandage during it

if you trinket blind you get vanish cs ks with no trinket so either way it makes no difference

[Diomades]

I'd like to know if there's any way - whatsoever - I can ever beat a rogue as Elemental.

Did some duels with a Blood Elf rogue. Trinket Kidney Shot, he uses his silence AOE. I use my defensive totems to wait it out. Blinded, he vanishes, saps me, opens up again. I can't do anything about it.

Tried again. Trinket Gidney shot, he uses his silence AOE, I pop down defensive totems. he doesn't even use vanish this time - pops Cloak of Shadows as I get off a Lava Burst and totally mitigates it. Fight over.

[Okhu]

We have a silence AoE? since when?

[Diomades]

We have a silence AoE? since when?

Did some duels with a Blood Elf rogue.

Blood Elf

Arcane Torrent (http://www.wowwiki.com/Arcane_Torrent).

Learn to read.

[Okhu]

Ooooh I thought you meant a ROGUE AoE silence... completely slipped my mind about Blood Elves AoE Silence. DERP.

[Diomades]

Ooooh I thought you meant a ROGUE AoE silence... completely slipped my mind about Blood Elves AoE Silence. DERP.

Not that it would have made much difference WITHOUT the silence. XD

[Okhu]

Its better to overkill, then justbarely-enough kill.