Race Origins (Pulled from Lore Creation)

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Reading this over, this addition to the lore does seem possible. There isn't really anything there saying that this can't be done, but I do spot one possible contradiction concerning the origin of the Night Elves.

The set of lore you have written contends that Night Elves were inhabitants, under this Dark God, and that the Titans transplanted them to Azeroth, where they became what they are today. However, ancient troll texts contradict this belief, stating that a small tribe of Amani trolls settled near the Well of Eternity, and through its power, became the Night Elves.

http://www.wowwiki.com/The_Twin_Empires

This to me represents Blizzard dangling this little fact in front of us, saying this could be true, but we're not going to say if it is or not. So, to say that this addition to lore that you have created is true, then you also would have to say that the ancient troll texts are false. However, we are then taking a gamble on what Blizzard is thinking. If for instance, they come out one day and confirm that Night Elves were descended from trolls, this lore would be contradictory. Therefore, I think that, at least that portion of the lore would have to exist too as, a theory, until Blizzard makes up their minds and tells us who our ancestors are.

[Swerto]

Night Elves were trolls who strayed too close to the well of eternity. Then Elune but-fucked them into looking more like her and Cenarius.

[Bruuin]

Night Elves were trolls who strayed too close to the well of eternity. Then Elune but-fucked them into looking more like her and Cenarius.

That has always been the rumors but there has been no actual proof, yet.

[Okhu]

Night Elves were trolls who strayed too close to the well of eternity. Then Elune but-fucked them into looking more like her and Cenarius.

You have such a way with words.

[Irontoe]

Night Elves were trolls who strayed too close to the well of eternity. Then Elune but-fucked them into looking more like her and Cenarius.

Swerto, the use of "butt-fucked" is a fragile artform, requiring the utmost care and attention to connotation. First of all, spell it correctly. I'm fairly sure any 5-year -old knows how to spell "butt" because it's the first thing they look up in the dictionary. Secondly, use the phrase correctly. Though "butt-fucked," which implies that something bad was done to the owner of the butt, has a wide variety of appropriate uses, it's too broad to fit the bestowing of a gift upon the worshippers of a benevolent deity.

[Raziel]

That has always been the rumors but there has been no actual proof, yet.

Except, y'know, an assload of quest text from both elves and trolls in their dealings with each other where both races confirm this relationship as a truth.

[Bruuin]

Except, y'know, an assload of quest text from both elves and trolls in their dealings with each other where both races confirm this relationship as a truth.


Little is known about the night elves' precise origins, for their race was formed so long ago that no hard evidence has surfaced to prove or invalidate this theory. All that is known for certain is that a tribe of nocturnal humanoids came to live on the shores of the first Well of Eternity, and the Well's cosmic energies changed them into the night elves we know today.

Certainly many trolls do believe that the humanoids who developed into the night elf race were trolls. The theory does have some credibility, for there is at least a superficial physical resemblance between trolls and night elves. Furthermore, the troll race dominated much of ancient Kalimdor--the only continent on Azeroth before the Great Sundering--long before the night elves came into power.

Nevertheless, many night elves find this theory preposterous and abhorrent. They are quick to point out that the first night elves began their rise to power by defeating a number of nearby troll tribes. As a consequence, the trolls came to fear and respect the might of their new rivals. The troll theory of night elf ancestry may have been a direct result of this early conflict. The trolls hated the night elves--a sentiment that persists to this day--and may have wished to marginalize the night elf race and its accomplishments. Also, attributing the night elf race with a troll heritage likely helped the trolls come to terms with their own shocking defeat.

Without additional data, there is little point in debating the merits of this controversial theory. No doubt it will remain a matter of contention for years to come.

Link (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/troll/trollsandnightelves.html)

Yes, things point to a high possibility of being Trolls to Elves. But as it stands, it is neither one until something is said later.

Besides, in Ulduar, you have a building that was constructed by the Titan's when they were here. In it, you have both depictions of Elves and Trolls. Really, it only adds more to the speculation of Trolls > Elves or Elves > Trolls or had they just always both existed and the nomadic, primal elves stumbled upon the Well and grew?

You also have contradicting views in various other books:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Race_origins#Troll_and_elf_lineage_speculation

Majority points to Troll > Elf. But the true origins are still unknown.

Edit: Correction on the point of depiction of trolls in Ulduar. Yes, it is in Ulduar, but in the Halls of Stone wing.

Troll (http://static.wowhead.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/92024.jpg)

Tauren (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/february/ulduarsandbox/ulduar_3.jpg)

Human/Vyrkul (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/february/ulduarsandbox/ulduar_4.jpg)

Elf (http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2009/february/ulduarsandbox/ulduar_20.jpg)

Edit 2:

There are four races shown in the Ulduar halls: Tauren, Vyrkul/Human, Elf and Troll. Gnomes were originally mechanical creatures touched by the Curse of Flesh. Same idea goes for Dwarf, hence why they are not shown.

Personally, I think those four races were the original races on Azeroth. Original sentient races. Orcs, draenei, Forsaken, gnomes, dwarves were all created after the Titans left.

[Swerto]

My belief is that Elves = Devolved trolls

Trolls created an empire while elves stayed nomadic to the forest praising fealty to the moon Goddess.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

My belief is that Elves = Devolved trolls

Trolls created an empire while elves stayed nomadic to the forest praising fealty to the moon Goddess.

That sounds like revisionist history to me, the historical record says different.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Empires%27_Fall


Aside from their shadowy origins, it is clear that the Night Elves came to power soon after their discovery of the Well of Eternity. Despite the trolls' attempts to keep them from expanding their territories, the Night Elves built up a mighty empire that expanded rapidly across primordial Kalimdor. Wielding fierce magics never before imagined by the superstitious trolls, the night elves had little trouble doing what the evil Aqir could never do: topple the two greatest empires in the world.

The night elves systematically dismantled the troll's defenses and supply chains. The trolls, unable to counter the elves' destructive magics, buckled under the onslaught. The night elves proved to every bit as cunning and bloodthirsty as the savage trolls - incurring the latter race's eternal hatred and disdain. The Gurubashi and Amani Empires fragmented within only a few short years.

[Okhu]

"Personally, I think those four races were the original races on Azeroth. Original sentient races. Orcs, draenei, Forsaken, gnomes, dwarves were all created after the Titans left."

Orcs aren't even from this planet, neither are Draenei.

So thats kind of moot.

[Swerto]

Orcs evolved on Draenor alongside Ogres (Or possibly from ogres, who knows)

Draenei are from whatever homeworld they were on, they were mutated by demon powers, but along the way the Naaru intervened and stopped them from turning into full fledged Eredar.

[Bruuin]

"Personally, I think those four races were the original races on Azeroth. Original sentient races. Orcs, draenei, Forsaken, gnomes, dwarves were all created after the Titans left."

Orcs aren't even from this planet, neither are Draenei.

So thats kind of moot.

Sort of misworded that [Boss came in and I hit post before reading it over. XD]

The original four, in my opinion, were Tauren, Elf, Vyrkul and Troll. I named the others as being of different origins, and of course, Orcs being from draenor.

[Anthek]

Sort of misworded that [Boss came in and I hit post before reading it over. XD]

The original four, in my opinion, were Tauren, Elf, Vyrkul and Troll. I named the others as being of different origins, and of course, Orcs being from draenor.

The Vrykul were definitely created by the Titans, as well.

[Bruuin]

The Vrykul were definitely created by the Titans, as well.

As I am sure trolls, elves and tauren were.

And anything else on the planet, really.

But it is iffy. The Titans brought about order, what was the planet like before they got here and did their deeds? Was there a planet before or did they create it?

It is all speculation from lack of information on the matter. Just what happened and what the Titans did is only iffy at best right now.

Of course, I could be way off base and Blizzard did not look into their own lore deep enough and stuck four random races into the Ulduar halls. Humans being one of them, for some strange reason. At least, the constellation/statue looks like a human more than a Vyrkul.

[Lisbet]

I pulled this from the other topic, because its a good lore discussion and felt it needed to be explored farther with out derailing the other thread too much.

Now *cracks knuckles*

Titan Creations ---
Dwarves - Stone Dwarves, curse of the flesh
Gnomes - Mechangnomes, curse of the flesh
Vyrkul - Stone Vyrkul, curse of the flesh, who slowly became humans - there's a whole quest chain in the Fjord about it.

No known original Origins -
Tauren/Tanunka - perhaps flesh creations of Freya/Eonar as protectors of nature? (The great mother?)
Trolls - Origins unknown beyond their own ego filled word of mouth and statue carving stories. Possibly always on azeroth, slaves or creations of the old gods? Could explain their need to control EVERYTHING.
Night Elves - possibly before trolls, possibly FROM trolls. Ulduar depicts them and not trolls, perhaps those "nocturnal humanoids" that lived near the well of eternity booted out their malformed brethren.

Other Worlds -
Orcs (there's no written or known origins outside of "came through portal")
Draenei (There's no written or known origins outside of "came on spaceship")


Humans are the malformed children of Vyrkul. Thus they're technically titan creations.

Night elves and trolls will always be debated, especially now. For all WE know, trolls and night elves came from the same family. All it would take is two family unites, even brothers and sisters, getting into an argument and splitting off. One family, or tribe, goes away from the well, losing their abilities to use such magics, finding alternative sources, suffering form withdrawal and becoming slightly deformed, savage, hostile.

As for Elves and their depiction in Ulduar - I really do think that those are pictures of Elune - the great huntress and first leader of the Night Elves - they weren't immortal then, only long lived, and she quite literally could have been such a wonderful leader, huntress, and overall person that in her death they elevated her to godlike status.
Course then there's that whole, in love with a stag thing.. which is creepy and I don't want to discuss it.

So night elves, at least on some level, remember all this. It wasn't as long ago for them as it was for trolls, and while the stories are watered down, they still exist. Elune is a goddess instead of a great leader - but she still exists and was, at least once, a real person who had real loves and real families - even if it is creepy.

Trolls on the other hand, are not nearly as long lived, and their first great leader - probably male since they're somewhat male dominated, and probably Elune's brother - has faded into non existence. There's no stories, since all their stories are now centered around the Loa - forest spirits that helped them survive being separated from the well and their origins. They have little memory of this great split because the stories long died with their original families, and being very self centered creatures, focused upon themselves and their power and the Loa. They rose to power, being careful to avoid their cousin's territories at all cost (notice how all their settlements are north, south, or east of night elf settlements?) and the two lived untouching, unknowing, until the night elves attacked.


So there you go, my personal theory - the two races were once one and split - those that stayed by the well became Kaldorei, and those that left became the Zandalari.

[Bruuin]

The more and more I think about it, the more and more I think Blizzard didn't really think through what is represented in Ulduar.

I had forgotten that the Vyrkul were stone, same as dwarves. Thanks for popping that back into my head, Lis.

This is one thing I hate about the lore and what is represented and seen in-game. It does not always match up correctly. Or, if it does, we just do not know it.

Anywho, pulling from Lisbet:

Ulduar does depict trolls, but they are in another, 5-man, wing. It isn't the Ulduar RAID but it is a part of the entire Ulduar complex. Link above.

Now, as for you idea on the elf depicted as Elune, I am going to lean more on that right now because of the deer that is depicted could very well be Malorne. Albeit, young. But once again, that doesn't make sense seeing as it is said that Malorne was actually older than Elune herself, not to mention her lover and the two of them bore Cenarius.

It is just weird. If that is indeed supposed to be a depiction of Elune, what are the two others?

We have a tauren and a more human than vyrkul statue.

The tauren one looks more like a male model of a tauren, otherwise I would venture to assume it could have been the Earthmother.

As for the human...it really makes no sense to me, right now. Why would their be a human depiction in a Titan created vault before the humans were even technically around? This is one of the things that makes me wonder about Blizzard paying all that much attention. : /

Draenei of course came from Argus but other than that, not much is really known, as Lisbet said.

Orcs even more so. Through the portal, the end.

Loopholes are loopy.

[Okhu]

The titans used a G.E.C.K machine to start all life on the planet.

To stop the giant radioactive scorpions (See:Old Gods), and the super mutants from running the place. (See: Burning Legion.)

Also there is a lone wanderer in there somewhere... probably from a vault of some kind. (See: Trolls.)

[Bruuin]

So much win, Okhu! XD

[Okhu]

I got Fallout 3 on the brain and I can't play it. Baawwww D:

[Swerto]

Who do we owe everything to?

A. The Overseer
B. The Overseer
C. The Overseer
D. The Overseer



__________________________________________________ _________





As far as race origins go?



Humans are curse of flesh Vrykul who got sent off by the mommies who didn't want to kill their children like Ymiron demanded. They evolved in areas like Arathi to what we know now as humans.

Gnomes? Curse of flesh Mecha-gnomes (Surprise huh?)

Dwarves? Curse of flesh Earthen (another big surprise eh?)

Draenei? Ancient homeworld, probably evolved there to their ORIGINAL race. Then after demon influence they were stopped by the Naaru and made into what we see now as the Draenei before they turned into full Eredar.

Night Elves/High Elves? Well let's see, there are MANY theories but the most LOGICAL ones do circulate around Trolls.

Let me explain.

The trolls have ALWAYS been here, and they always WILL be here. They are on both continents and they had an Empire long before any other race (even the Qiraji). There is no definate start point for the Trolls, there is no 'what they evolved from' (Proto-Trolls?) Elves, there is a definate start. They were not NIGHT ELVES as we know them until they found the well of eternity. Most likely they had already broken off from the Troll species and started their own species and called themselves 'Night Elves', or they didn't (Different sources say when they started calling themselves night elves). But when they found the well of eternity they were changed drastically. They were made into Elune's image (which they remain to this day). This is why Elves look like Cenarius, the keepers of the grove, and dryads. They were also granted immortality and a way to bend magic (thus we move towards when the elves broke off from themselves and created the High Elves).


Tauren? We don't know when they start, they have stories about the Earthmother creating them, and there is no evidence of them being made by the Titans (I believe, unless something was said in the Ulduar raid and I missed it). They're probably as old as the Night Elves, if not older, considering the Night Elves ran into the Tauren during the war of the shifting sands.

Orcs? Evolved on Draenor, that was their first world. There is no evidence that they came through a portal there. Some people speculate that Orcs evolved from Ogres (another race that evolved on Draenor) which would explain their simmilar appearance and ability to breed.

Forsaken? They're humans who were killed and brought back as scourge, shortly afterwards they told Arthas to fuck himself and joined Sylvanas because they had enough willpower after the Lich King started losing control thanks to Illidan.

[Agnarr]

The more and more I think about it, the more and more I think Blizzard didn't really think through what is represented in their lore.
Fixed.

I appreciate the desire to know the "truth", but Blizzard doesn't even know.

[Rohan Orcslayer]

...

What? No love for this guy?

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll109/GeordieThePale/Nelfyeti.jpg

There there... It'll be alright, Proto-Elf.

[Tiraline]

Draenei are from whatever homeworld they were on, they were mutated by demon powers, but along the way the Naaru intervened and stopped them from turning into full fledged Eredar.

*ahem*

Draenei are originally from Argus. They called themselves Eredar. However, the race of demons that came therefrom (man'ari eredar) were mutated by fel powers given by Sargeras. Those who refused fled for their lives, and remained uncorrupted. It is up for debate whether these refugees were themselves altered by the Light, although I don't see evidence for that.

"Draenei" means "exiled ones", and has more cultural connotations than actual racial, IMO--although they are the last who remain unaltered of the original Eredar race.

This information is available here (http://www.wowwiki.com/Eredar).

[Tiraline]

...

What? No love for this guy?

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll109/GeordieThePale/Nelfyeti.jpg

There there... It'll be alright, Proto-Elf.

New druid form?

[Swerto]

*ahem*

Draenei are originally from Argus. They called themselves Eredar. However, the race of demons that came therefrom (man'ari eredar) were mutated by fel powers given by Sargeras. Those who refused fled for their lives, and remained uncorrupted. It is up for debate whether these refugees were themselves altered by the Light, although I don't see evidence for that.

"Draenei" means "exiled ones", and has more cultural connotations than actual racial, IMO--although they are the last who remain unaltered of the original Eredar race.

This information is available here (http://www.wowwiki.com/Eredar).
Oh sorry that I gave the short version.

-pishposh-

I know the story.

[Tiraline]

Oh sorry that I gave the short version.

-pishposh-

I know the story.

Your "short version" had the draenei mutated. Just an observation.

[Swerto]

They are mutated.

They were saved by the Naaru

Demon energies mutate whether you willingly accept them or not.

Broken and The Lost Ones are further mutated Draenei, not Eredar.

[Netharius]

Demon energies mutate whether you willingly accept them or not.
Actually, according to in-game lore, the Draenei are a group of Eredar that refused to accept the Legion, and fled before they could be altered. So no, they have not been mutated by the Legion. It is up for discussion whether or not the current Draenei race has been mutated by the light, but due to their similar appearence to the Fel Eredar, I would think not.

As for the Broken and Lost Ones, they are Draenei that fell to the demonic taint of the Legion whilst on Draenor, and not from some kind of curse that was laid down on Argus.

[EnheilRas]

Who do we owe everything to?

A. The Overseer
B. The Overseer
C. The Overseer
D. The Overseer

No, my friend, it's the Claw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9t5ZqeHcYk). It chooses who will go and who will stay.

[Pyrisath]

Actually, according to in-game lore, the Draenei are a group of Eredar that refused to accept the Legion, and fled before they could be altered.

Backwards. The Eredar are a group of Draenei who followed Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde, two of their three rulers, into obtaining power from the Legion. The Draenei are the chosen of the Naaru for having not run, and the Naaru ushered Velen and the un-corrupted ones aboard their space ships, where they fled the Legion for a few thousand years until Draenor.

[Swerto]

They are ALL Eredar, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde are Ma'nari (Sp?) Eredar

[Agnarr]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/townhall/draenei.html

Nearly twenty-five thousand years ago, the eredar race arose on the world of Argus. They were extremely intelligent and had a natural affinity for magic in all its myriad forms. Using their gifts, they developed a vast and wondrous society.

[Szordrin]

Has anyone stopped to consider that this is Blizzard's way of creating the Creationist vs Evolutionist in their world? That.. maybe they -wont- ever explain it to be a Law but to forever be a Theory. Kinda like World Religions against Science in our world. I dont know why people get angry that Blizzard "done fucked up with lore" in this respect because, I think this was the intention all along.

*shrug*

[CytianaMoonarrow]

Going back to the Troll versus Night Elf discussion, (is it a dead horse yet?) might it be an evolution type thing? Over the years the two split off from a single body almost like Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon type? One went one way and formed its' own race and civilization, and the other went another way?

Taking a glance at the Race Relations primer..


Night Elves: I say again, the rivalry between the trolls and the elves is absolutely ancient, literally going back to before the world was split apart as it is now. The trolls blame the elves for splitting the continents apart, bringing the burning legion to Azeroth, and while it was the forest trolls, not the jungle trolls who fought the high elves in the Troll Wars, you have to think the stories got told and heard by the jungle trolls too. In short, there’s an ancient hatred between these two races that few races on Azeroth can match. Trolls will target night elves above other targets, they will take pleasure in killing them, and in short, they’ll be really freaking terrifying when facing them. [On Troll relations with Night Elves]

It seems that the point I made above, could be reinforced by a little bit of this- I'm not quite sure. The two races were one, until that one evolutionary point, where one went one way, and then the other broke off and did its own thing. From there, similar to human history (should I really be involving this in a lore-discussion?), the two felt the need to try and wipe out the other in a domination type match?

Again, I state that I am honestly unsure of the point I just made. I can't reference Ulduar (I know nothing about it, other than it's a raid).

[Netharius]

Backwards. The Eredar are a group of Draenei who followed Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde, two of their three rulers, into obtaining power from the Legion. The Draenei are the chosen of the Naaru for having not run, and the Naaru ushered Velen and the un-corrupted ones aboard their space ships, where they fled the Legion for a few thousand years until Draenor.

You, good sir, make little sense. What we call now Draenei were once Eredar, and what we now call Eredar are actually the fel-corrupted versions of their race.

Everything else in the quote was correct, and merely reiterated, by you.

[Marravus]

On the question of why a human is depicted in Ulduar when humans were not created, I present the following thought...

Perhaps the Titans were humans. Now, I haven't been through Ulduar or seen many pictures depicting a Titan, but if the Titans were Humans, that would explain why the statue was there.

This is of course really affected by my incessant watching of Stargate and how you find out the Ancients are Humans, but thats beside the point. But I believe that the Titans themselves were also effected by the curse of the flesh, which is also why their creations were afflicted by it.

Just my two cents, but I'm also working on scratch here.

[Anthek]

As for the astral depictions of various races in Ulduar, I really wouldn't consider it a source of too much information on the origins of the races. It is foremost a prison to hold Yogg-Saron, and secondly an observation station for Algalon to monitor the corruption of the Old Gods throughout Azeroth. The giants themselves are master craftsmen, and were responsible for maintaining Ulduar over millenia, so those depictions may be more recent.