Horde of light...

[Cedes]

THe Paladin. The keeper of the light, defender of freedom, and the rightous warrior!
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/72/screenshot115zj9.png

but not anymore...


now they have gone to the evil side and have begome this...
http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/8075/screenshot114lc6.png

sure their gunna be blood elves, but u get the picture(plus a zombie version of our hero above looks way cooler :P)


my discussion here is why is this figure of knightlyhood on the evil side now?

I can understand priests cause we have shadowpriest...but what about holy or redeption BE pallys? I decided to take a trip down memory lane to a classic game, called Final fantasy IV. Their the main character was a Dark knight and became a paladin. Thats when it hti me....a dark knight!. Evil horde get the priest and it fits them right to when u think of the shadow spec....so wouldnt it seem right to have a new spec for paladins....a Dark knight spec????


think of Arthas...a holy knight turned Death knight...ring a bell?

think about it and discuss.

[Noury]

Thing is, who ever said the Horde were "evil"? Certainly not themselves. To the Horde, I would imagine the Alliance and their xenophobic, self-righteous attitudes smack of "evil".

As was hacked to death in a whole bunch of other threads, "Evil" is a matter of perspective.

I would probably guess that the "Holy Light" or the Titans or whatever higher powers give out the stuff for Paladins, Priests, etc.. probably have broader vision than we lowly mortal creatures with our child-like minds.

Thats my lore-based opinion. In practical sense, the devs probably listened to the masses who were clamouring to play a Blood Elf "Dark Knight". :twisted:

[Malerage]

Yeah, in the WoW world the Horde are not evil, with the exception of the Forsaken, whom the rest of the Horde neither like nor trust to begin with. If I recall correctly, after the demons that ruled the orcs were defeated, the Orcs came together under Thrall, who taught honor. Even though the Orcs (and other Horde races) had fought side by side with the Alliance races, they were cast aside by the Alliance and mistreated.

The Taurens are certainly a noble and good race, not evil in the least, which is why the prevalence of people roleplaying Tauren as evil brutes on the RP servers is somewhat humorous. I think some people roll Horde on RP servers because they jump to the conclusion that Horde are evil and think its cool to RP the side of evil. In point of fact, the Horde aren't any more evil than the Alliance with the possible exception, as I said above, of the Forsaken, who come as close to the definition as any race in Azeroth.

[Noury]

The Taurens are certainly a noble and good race, not evil in the least, which is why the prevalence of people roleplaying Tauren as evil brutes on the RP servers is somewhat humorous.

Not to derail the thread too much, but I have to mention someting here ( I apologize in advance Cedes)

The above statement highlights a particular issue that constantly irritates me. It did when I was Horde and played a Tauren druid, and still haunts me as Upae and VCo's Raelene, both NE druids.

As you might have already guessed, it has to do with druids ganking each other. Now, I have no problem with the ganking per se; its all part of a PvP server. But as a role player, I cannot fathom why a Tauren druid for example would go out of their way to attack a fellow NE druid, a member of their own order! (or visa versa).

Self defence I can understand, or in support of some group action.

But to independently go out and stalk/slay another druid rattles my RP chains. Now I fully appreciate that not all players on an RP server actually RP. Still, it irks me.

[Zasein]

According to the tarun: The night elves are arrogant and have lost their true connection to nature.

According to the night elves: The tarun are primitive and do not have elunes blessing (or something to that extent)

So, nither factions druids tend to consider each other as part of the same order, they may and may not, but really its a matter of the type of character you play.

[Noury]

I suppose. From what I can gather, Malfurion Stormrage is/was all for the Tauren and supported their inclusion into the Cenarion Circle. Followers like Dentrite Starblaze in Moonglade still support and promote that position.

But in Malfurion's absence Fandral Staghelm has taken the mantle of High Druid. He's the one disagrees with the Tauren being included in the Circle.

Ever talk to that guy in Darnassus? He's an arrogant SOB.. :roll:

I'm not sure where the Tauren attitude comes from, unless its lore-wise in response to Fandral's racism.

I guess I just have to RP it that most Tauren assume I'm a follower of Fandral.

[Abric]

Very cool pictures, Cedes.

[Kaliera]

That guy is going DOWN.

Trust me on this.

It's already been done, Zust. He was a wuss, to say the least.

[Kaliera]

Cocky much? :/ Novus did it back before the guild drama showed up. Fandrall has been killed, the ship has been sailed, etc. etc.

[Mohan]

The Taurens are certainly a noble and good race, not evil in the least, which is why the prevalence of people roleplaying Tauren as evil brutes on the RP servers is somewhat humorous.

But do you really think every tauren is good and noble? Is every human in the real world good? Bad? Same goes for in game races too. There's just as much room for personality/behavior differences in tauren and dwarves (the two races who, lore-wise, are presented as the most one-sided) as there is for orcs and humans.

Sure, the majority of the Horde are not evil. And ditto for the Alliance. If you think "realistically," cities are populated by way more people than the shopkeepers, etc. You just don't see them. The player characters, whether good or evil, are actually just a small part of the general populace. So all those evil tauren you see are really a minority in the big picture.

[Daala]

The lore issue is that much of the racial identity precedents were set in Warcraft III, which didn't have alot of the issues that WoW does. The Tauren and Trolls were both components of the Orcish race, as the Gnomes and Blood Elves and Dwarves belonged to the humans. So, they get alot less development than, say, the Night Elves and the Undead. This is fine, because all these races were present in previous Warcraft games, and alot of the lore was established then. But not Taurens, who were flat out shortchanged. The sum of the two Undead campaigns leans towards 3/4 Scourge, 1/4 Forsaken. But the Scourge have been, and I feel will continue to be, marginalized, until the Northrend expansion comes out. I'd have guessed it being next if Arthas hadn't fused with Ner'zhul. As it is, I'm guessing that the next expansion will be something else, like the Emerald Dream, and perhaps the one after that will be Northrend. But I digress.

There's so much gray area that we're provided considerable maneuverability. I have no issues with evil Tauren, especially considering the existance of the Grimtotem. Unless Metzen fills in the blanks (which I doubt, as there really isn't any need to), I think that freedom of roleplay takes supremacy.

[Malerage]

Mohan:

If I thought 'every' Tauren was good, I'd have said 'every,' which I did not.

Say what you will about the relative numbers, but the Tauren controlled by the players are the only ones that matter in terms of the RP discussion, since no one RPs the others. Many people play them as evil brutes precisely because they think that because Tauren are Horde they must be evil brutes (apparently not paying much attention to the lore or what the NPCs say in the Tauren start areas. It's a cliche, and a poor one.

The other cliche I've come across is the Drizz't do Urden syndrome applied to Forsaken. I've seen a number of Forsaken RPed as misunderstood beings who cast aside the evil of their race and try to be good and noble.

A handful of either of the above is fine, but when it gets to be more than that (as it certainly has in the case of Tauren) it's just silly.

[Fhenrir]

my discussion here is why is this figure of knightlyhood on the evil side now?

You get another booooo from me, dwarf. Neither side is "good" or "evil". Both sides have good and bad, and I myself have always seen the Alliance as more evil than the Horde.

Nuff said.

[Cedes]

my discussion here is why is this figure of knightlyhood on the evil side now?

You get another booooo from me, dwarf. Neither side is "good" or "evil". Both sides have good and bad, and I myself have always seen the Alliance as more evil than the Horde.

Nuff said.

:cry:


alliance vs horde

how cant their be a good side and an evil side

the evil side will never consider themselves "evil" silly. Nor will they see their ways as "wrong." I mean damn, think about it lol....did hitlar see himself as evil? did Gangus Kahn think he was doing wrong or was evil? did Queen Mary think she was wrong in slaughtering Protestants? PLus the scourg are horde and their evil so guess what....HORDE BAD...ALLIANCE GOOOOOOOODDDDD!!!!!!!!! :wink:














nuff said

[Kaliera]

PLus the scourg are horde and their evil so guess what...


Scourge are the scourge, Forsaken are the Forsaken, two different trains of thought. Saying the scourge are horde is like saying the Scarlet Crusade is a part of the alliance, only worse.

As far as the "evil" horde, the orcs have done more to work out a peace than any other race in Azeroth. The trolls follow Thrall's wishes, even if only through not wishing to be exhiled. The Forsaken are a shakey race, one not fully trusted by the other three factions to begin with. The Night Elves are led by a racist and genocidal maniac. The dwarves invade lands that the Tauren hold sacred with no regards to their wishes. The humans, aside from Jaina, are unwilling to set aside differences for the better of Azeroth, and continue to press expansions into Orc territories.

The whole lore behind Alterac Valley is another good example...

The Frostwolves led their peaceful lives in seclusion in the valley for years before Stormpike forces barged in and began slaying it's residents.

Ah yes, the Horde...the epitomy of evil... Damn the bastards for trying to settle things peacefully!

[Fhenrir]

Ah yes, the Horde...the epitomy of evil... Damn the bastards for trying to settle things peacefully!

It's because our skin isn't pink.

Pink skin in almost all fantasy settings indicates the good guys. Green, blue, rotting, and hooved usually indicates evil. It's people who have come from other fantasy settings that can't distinguish that this is an entirely different game setting.

[Mohan]

Mohan:

If I thought 'every' Tauren was good, I'd have said 'every,' which I did not.

Say what you will about the relative numbers, but the Tauren controlled by the players are the only ones that matter in terms of the RP discussion, since no one RPs the others. Many people play them as evil brutes precisely because they think that because Tauren are Horde they must be evil brutes (apparently not paying much attention to the lore or what the NPCs say in the Tauren start areas. It's a cliche, and a poor one.

The other cliche I've come across is the Drizz't do Urden syndrome applied to Forsaken. I've seen a number of Forsaken RPed as misunderstood beings who cast aside the evil of their race and try to be good and noble.

A handful of either of the above is fine, but when it gets to be more than that (as it certainly has in the case of Tauren) it's just silly.

I certainly didn't mean to put words in your mouth or imply anything.

I do, however, think the general populace of a race should be taken into account when considering how a character is played. I think that if you were to ask a lot of tauren players why their character is "evil" (in most cases - "I wanna kill the Alliance"), you'd get more than just the "I'm Horde so I'm evil" response. The general populace don't have a reason to want to kill the Alliance races. The adventurers (player characters) are the ones who would have a reason.

My character, Mohan, for example. He's not evil, by any means, just misguided/prejudiced. A group of night elves, led by an elf who actually saved his life, slaughtered his entire clan, leaving only him alive. So in turn, night elves and any of their allies get no mercy from him.

I think a lot of derivation from the general lore of a race comes from the players' desire to not be a stereotypical member of that race. In this case, to not be the noble, proud and peaceful tauren. Everyone wants to try to stand out in the crowd. Unfortunately, many many people's ideas of what is different often coincide. Thus, you get the frequency of similar characters.

[Vilmah]

Not all Horde are evil...

Vilmah isn't evil...

[Abric]

Heh, fun discussions from some photos!

I can understand how the Horde can be seen as evil. They are outcasts... the minority of the world who are dragging themselves up to a better fortune than what was, years ago.

All factions of the Horde, both playable and not, have been knocked down by THE MAN. They are shaving a piece of the world for themselves; be it new (Orcs and Forsaken) or old (Tauren and Troll.) Every faction has had their existence threatened, and what happens when you back an animal in the corner? Booyah!

While it can be considered 'evil,' it is only in the moral sense. You know, all the stuff about love thy neighbor and don't kick puppies when crossing the street. Though, none of that stuff holds water when your entire civilization is on the verge of being destroyed. People may act on similiar whims, but their reasoning may be far different.

While Abric wants all humans dead, he will not hold his hand against their allies - since they have been blended as one and the same. His reasons are selfish, and so... evil. It isn't about survival to him - it is about greed.

Mohan seems to have a desire for vengenance. His drive for it against the elves is strong, and he allies himself with the people who will see his thrist sated. While vengenance could be considered evil, Mohan's reasons really aren't. One can expect such a strong reaction from somebody when they have their family killed.

Also, as Mohan kind of hinted at - we are adventurers. Each PC is unique and special, in the same way as the Heroes of Warcraft are (from the games.)

...

Where was I going with this? Oh yeah, work. I have to go work. Here I come terrorists! Today is your day to meet with those 72 Virginians!

[Maegannon]

I didn't read much of this.. but what I did read anoyed me ;p

EVERYONE knows (or they should) that While alliance hold the "good guy" image, they are actualy the bad guys. While "The Horde" is made up of several "misunderstood" races. I'll give examples!

The Taruen only have one clan that are technicaly evil, they're very peace lovnig on the whole.

The Orc are actualy very much like the Tauren, but they were correputed and used. They aren't evil, they WERE evil.

The Trolls are one solitary clan, one that has given up every evil bit of themselves in an attempt to better themselves in the eyes of Thrall, who they hold in as high esteme as their own leader. Sure, other trolls are wickedly bad.. but not the darkspear.

The only actual evil group in the horde (right now) are the Forsaken, and thats because they are actively seeking a way to distroy all humanity. Sure, they might not be as evil as the scourge, but trust me, on the whole, they're pretty nasty.

The alliance on the other hand, work a bit more like this.

The humans hate and dispise anyone who isnt pretty or might have done them any wrong in the past.. aka orcs, forsaken, trolls. They hate tauren by horde associaton.

The dwarves have a ongoing feude with the the tauren, because they are digging their lands up in a selfish quest to find out more about their origins. They also are feuding with trolls, though not the darkspear.

The gnomes are not any better then goblens. They are selfish and selfsentered, and the only reason they're helping the alliance at all is because they made their home unlivable and are being housed by the dwarves.

The Night Elves hate Trolls for the melenia of fighting between the two races. They hate the orcs for chopping a few tress and killing Cenarius
(Even the Tauren don't hate them for that!). They hate the forsaken because they look like the scourge, and they hate the tauren (with the exception of the Cenarion Circle) because they're allied with the orcs.

Thus: While the Horde are missunderstood misfits trying to carve a nich in the world for themselves, the alliance races are.. well.. racist and hateful and cruel for the sake of being cruel.

Thats why I've always liked horde better. Everyone thinks their the bad guys.. but they really arent.

[Vilmah]

Thus: While the Horde are missunderstood misfits trying to carve a nich in the world for themselves, the alliance races are.. well.. racist and hateful and cruel for the sake of being cruel.



DAMNED HUMANS!

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Media/Homepage/franken2.jpg

[Zasein]

Humm, I really don't think that either side is evil. They just don't have any reason to trust each other. RL example: Cold war

Now, would you really call NATO the "good guys" and the reds the "bad guys." Way more people in veitnam were killed by US forces than the veitcong, because US forces were fighting the general population. When a town was "liberated" they would blow it to bits with artillery, then do a napalm strike, and by the time ground forces moved in it would be a smoking crater. Not to say that Communisim was good or anything, and stalin did kill more people than Hitler ever did, but NATO had its flaws. The real fight was a nuclar facedown "We have more nuks thn U ROFLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!1111!!1one" "NOT ANYMORE LOLOL WE GOT AN H BOMB U n00bs." But, yeah, nither side was really good or bad. The world isn't black and white. Niether is world of warcraft. And thats part of what makes it stand out. Orcs aren't generic badguys, and humans are jugemental fruitcakes who can't see far enough to tell that the orcs have changed.

In warcraft 3 the undead were about as close to LOTR's orcs as you can get, but that all changed with the forsaken. Sure, they have a corrupt leader, but you cannot judge them all by their leader. Does every forsaken want to eradicate humanity? No way. In the same way does every human want to destroy the horde. Again, no way. Veiwing the factions in world of warcraft by the race is damn raicist. They are different spiecies, but they are all on the same intilectual level. Each, dispite their appearance, has pretty much the same mind as people in our world do. I hate two demensional characters. Any good character has to have some bad, and any bad character has to have some good. No one is pure evil or pure good, even Hitler did some good. He brought germany out of its depression. (and blamed the jews for the whole thing, but, thats not the point) Just my 300 cents.

[Hifazat]

Humans are evil and all that jazz. I am sorry but you are ignoring WC1, WC2 and WC2:BTDP if you say that.

In WC1 - Humans are living in peace with each other. Orcs attack. The basically go around murderering, pillaging and doing all the bad things that happen a war. They killed men women and children in a violent rampage that was not of their own choosing. But they are still responsible for it. In WC1 they have destoryed Azeroth and are heading to Lordaeron, with Stromgarde in the way.

In addition in WC1 Orcs have necromancers and raise the dead to fight right next to them - practicing the black arts.

WC2 - Orcs continue with their rampage destorying and killing everything in sight. They fight and destory various kingdoms killing humans, elves and dwarves without remorse. Remember the bloodlust.

To point out Trolls were not under the influence of the bloodlust in WC2 and WC3. There is no mention of them ever being under the influence of demons in any of the lore. So while Orcs can claim their actions were not their own, the Trolls however aimed to destory humans, elves and dwarves because they wanted to. They killed by choice. How is that good? The Alliance in WC1 and WC2 were defending themselves from an invading force. Remember the alliance was sitting in peace until the Orcs came. The trolls joined up with them to exact revenge and gain territory. Again not "good".

WC2 Expansion - If you play the expansion, you learn in the very first campaign that the orcs want to reopen the portal even though the humans drove them out and destoryed the portal. Once again this can be attributed to the bloodlust but I bet somewhere in lore it does state that in the expansion of WC2 they were fighting on their own and not under any influence.

So they begin a second invasion into Azeroth. So a second time the "evil" alliance are attacked and forced to defend themselves. After the second invasion you have warcraft 3.

WC3 - In warcraft 3 roughly 10 years have passed since the second war, rather second invasion. Everybody knows the story of WC3 but we can recap it again. A lone crazy prince gets corrupted, the scourge is the work of the demons and the Horde after fleeing from their prisons run to Kalimdor.

In Kalimdor they take over the lands that belong to the Night Elves. Land that belonged to someone else that they claim for their own. Though the Tauren welcomed them the Night Elves did not. Put it this way you can't come into a home as a homeless man or women, take a room and tell everybody else it is yours now. That does not work.

I will add more later on when I am not hungry.

[Fhenrir]

WC2 Expansion - If you play the expansion, you learn in the very first campaign that the orcs want to reopen the portal even though the humans drove them out and destoryed the portal. Once again this can be attributed to the bloodlust but I bet somewhere in lore it does state that in the expansion of WC2 they were fighting on their own and not under any influence.

So they begin a second invasion into Azeroth. So a second time the "evil" alliance are attacked and forced to defend themselves. After the second invasion you have warcraft 3.

WC3 - In warcraft 3 roughly 10 years have passed since the second war, rather second invasion. Everybody knows the story of WC3 but we can recap it again. A lone crazy prince gets corrupted, the scourge is the work of the demons and the Horde after fleeing from their prisons run to Kalimdor.

In Kalimdor they take over the lands that belong to the Night Elves. Land that belonged to someone else that they claim for their own. Though the Tauren welcomed them the Night Elves did not. Put it this way you can't come into a home as a homeless man or women, take a room and tell everybody else it is yours now. That does not work.

I will add more later on when I am not hungry.

Firstly, In WC2's expansion, they were still under the influence of the bloodlust. It just wasn't as focused because the Burning Legion wasn't helping them.

In WC3 they were still coping with the bloodlust, although many of them had started to escape it. Thrall worked diligently to free his brethren from the Internment camps (hmm, internment camps? Yes, the humans rounding up all orcs and throwing them into prisons, using them for slave labor... nothing wrong with that of course).

Following the advice of the Oracle (Medivh) he sailed to Kalimdor, and took the land of Durotar from harpies, Centaur, and allied with the failing tauren.

Grom and the Warsong clan, which we much more bloodthirsty by nature started killing elves, and even got seduced into Mannoroth's bloodlust again.

Later, after Thrall got him back, the two had a showdown with Mannoroth, and Grom killed Mannoroth. Freeing the orcs from the demonic control eventually.

Although clearly judging from the warlocks in their society and the racial abilities orcs will be feeling the effects for a long time to come.

[Hifazat]

Firstly, In WC2's expansion, they were still under the influence of the bloodlust. It just wasn't as focused because the Burning Legion wasn't helping them.

In WC3 they were still coping with the bloodlust, although many of them had started to escape it. Thrall worked diligently to free his brethren from the Internment camps (hmm, internment camps? Yes, the humans rounding up all orcs and throwing them into prisons, using them for slave labor... nothing wrong with that of course).

Following the advice of the Oracle (Medivh) he sailed to Kalimdor, and took the land of Durotar from harpies, Centaur, and allied with the failing tauren.

Grom and the Warsong clan, which we much more bloodthirsty by nature started killing elves, and even got seduced into Mannoroth's bloodlust again.

Later, after Thrall got him back, the two had a showdown with Mannoroth, and Grom killed Mannoroth. Freeing the orcs from the demonic control eventually.

Although clearly judging from the warlocks in their society and the racial abilities orcs will be feeling the effects for a long time to come.

Here is the question I have about the bloodlust - in WC1 according to lore the BL was controlling them. In WC2 you state that the power was not focused.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/chapter4.html#23

This is from the lore website itself. From what I can read and see, the Orcs were in complete control of themselves even though in the bloodlust. They knew their actions. They planned them. The 2 different betrayals that cost the orcs the war and the forced them to retreat was all by their own actions and not under the control of some demonic force.

[Vilmah]

I'm not going to go and say that there weren't some evil orcs in the past, or that there aren't evil orcs now, but the fact, is, the Horde aren't the "bad guys" because of what happened in the past. If that was true, then White people are the bad guys in the US, because their ancestors massacred and esnlaved other races.

Never mind that just about every race in the world has done the same at one point or another.

Never mind that there were some good White people who tried to stop the others from doing what they knew was wrong.

Nope. They're all the bad guys now.

That's the same mentality you get if you say the Horde is the "evil" side. It doesn't work.

[Mohan]

Yes, the orcs were aware of their actions. But those actions were still the result of demonic influence. Until the Burning Legion came to Draenor, the orcs were quite peaceful. It was the demons that gave them the desire to kill. Once that was in place, the orcs took the reigns. But had the Burning Legion never came to Draenor, there wouldn't even be orcs on Azeroth.

It all comes down to demons. Always with the demons...

[Cedes]

Yes, the orcs were aware of their actions. But those actions were still the result of demonic influence. Until the Burning Legion came to Draenor, the orcs were quite peaceful. It was the demons that gave them the desire to kill. Once that was in place, the orcs took the reigns. But had the Burning Legion never came to Draenor, there wouldn't even be orcs on Azeroth.

It all comes down to demons. Always with the demons...

demons cause evil


whats the old phrase yoda says about teh dark side??





besides, no one has any word on my topic of why a figure of light, truth and all that is good on the side with demons, evil dark magic and the walking dead?





horde be evil

[Fallacy]

besides, no one has any word on my topic of why a figure of light, truth and all that is good on the side with demons, evil dark magic and the walking dead?

Uh, Alliance has them, too, except for the zombie part. Then, again, that shows another xenophobic aspect of the Alliance. The Forsaken wouldn't want to kill the humans if they weren't under attack in the first place. Heck, the Tauren want to cure them. That's sure a lot more than whatever the Alliance has done to help their former members.

Besides, if it wasn't for a certain human, possessed by a demon, the orcs would have never come to Azeroth.

[Leyujin]

You're right Cedes. Why the hell DID Paladins side with the Alliance?

...

2 out of 3 ain't bad. <coughGNOMEANDHUMANWARLOCKScough>

[Malerage]

The Horde allied with the Forsaken in part because the Forsaken convinced them that they were only out to seek a cure for their condition, and that the powers of the earth and the shamanic traditions of ORcs and Taurens could help them. The Orc leadership viewed it almost as a duty to help the Forsaken, since they too were once controlled by demonic compulsions. The rest of the Horde do not trust the Forsaken, however.

I think if you look at the source material for the World of Warcraft, everything from Blizzard's web site to the RPG source book, it is clear that the Horde isn't any more evil than the Alliance, though many of the Forsaken clearly are evil.

[Noury]

I guess in the end the question Cedes poses is " Why would the Light, the source of Paladin power, offer its might to Blood Elves.. who have allied themselves with Horde? " Is that accurate?

I agonized over much the same problem with Nouri and his choice to become a shadow priest. "Why would a priest of the Light be able to channel so much shadow power?"

The answer I came up with suits the paladin situation I think. Light and Shadow are just celestial tools. Both necessary for the Universe to exist. According to WC lore, the Light uses Virtues to create substance in the Universe out of the Void. But at the same time Shadow power is needed to destroy that part of the Universe that is no longer relevant and provide the residual energies and "building material" if you will that the Light needs to Create.

Is the wolf evil for killing the deer to feed its young? No. Its just doing its part in the process of creation. But uses destruction to achieve that creation.

So, Light and Shadow are just universal energy tools for construction and demolition. Tools are neither evil nor good. They just are.

Its the motives behind the use of the tools and the actual purposes to which the tools are put that define "good" or "evil".

So, in effect you can have evil Paladins, should they use their tools of Light power in such a way that other entities perceive the actions as "evil" , the Light itself doesn't care one way or another. Same as one could be a good shadow priest, using their powers of destruction to fight that "evil" paladin. etc..

Just my point of view on this..

[Karkarov]

Look at the scarlet crusade. They are obviously mostly evil fanatics as evidenced by thier "with us or against us no matter what" policy and the fact that they basically kill just about anyone not a scarlet crusade member on site. Yet.... they have bookoo paladins as members. A paladin is a person who derives thier abilities from a belief in "the light", nothing ever said the "light" cared about how they used that power.

[Noury]

Look at the scarlet crusade. They are obviously mostly evil fanatics as evidenced by thier "with us or against us no matter what" policy and the fact that they basically kill just about anyone not a scarlet crusade member on site. Yet.... they have bookoo paladins as members. A paladin is a person who derives thier abilities from a belief in "the light", nothing ever said the "light" cared about how they used that power.

Excellent example Kark of what I was trying to illustrate.. Thanks.

[Vilmah]

Look at the scarlet crusade. They are obviously mostly evil fanatics as evidenced by thier "with us or against us no matter what" policy and the fact that they basically kill just about anyone not a scarlet crusade member on site. Yet.... they have bookoo paladins as members. A paladin is a person who derives thier abilities from a belief in "the light", nothing ever said the "light" cared about how they used that power.

Exactly.

Besides, as someone else said, HELLO, Alliance has WARLOCKS. And SHADOW PRIESTS. And the Horde has always had Holy priests. My alt is an Undead Holy priest, so this whole argument is moot. We've been able to channel the Light to begin with, now we just have Light users in armor. The fact that they had to STEAL the light is the dumb part. I'm still trying to figure out that mentality...

[Chingaso]

bookoo
Beaucoup.

You're welcome. :twisted:

[Leyujin]

Uh, Alliance has them, too, except for the zombie part. Then, again, that shows another xenophobic aspect of the Alliance. The Forsaken wouldn't want to kill the humans if they weren't under attack in the first place. Heck, the Tauren want to cure them. That's sure a lot more than whatever the Alliance has done to help their former members.

Besides, if it wasn't for a certain human, possessed by a demon, the orcs would have never come to Azeroth.

o.O Fallacy, we posted in like the exact same minute nearly the same thing. You beat me to it though! <shakes fist>

[Hifazat]

Ok then you are saying Arthas is infact not evil? Because people seem to be using the defense that the demons caused it and thus are not evil. By the same logic Arthas was under the influence of a demon and thus he is not evil.

According to Blizzard's own lore website the horde in WC2 were not under the influence or rather they got no directions from the burning legion so they took actions on their own. Of their own accord by choice.

The Alliance set up interim camps. I don't deny that as it is part of the lore. But if one action can make a group evil, how can the collective actions of 3 of the races of the horde which have in the past tired to eradicate the alliance of the planet not be considered evil? Its logically inconsistant.

[Vilmah]

But if one action can make a group evil, how can the collective actions of 3 of the races of the horde which have in the past tired to eradicate the alliance of the planet not be considered evil? Its logically inconsistant.

Well, I'm not saying EITHER side is evil. Why should we have to bow down to the black and white ideas that there is a good side and a bad side? Just because we have space demons doesn't make this Star Wars.

[Abric]

Oh, Arthas is evil. Same as the demon possessed orcs. The demons merely nudged them in the right direction - and they went off on their own.

Arthas is *still* evil. He is the Lich King, and he wants power. He had the choice to say no... but he didn't. Even though under the influence, he made the choices he made, because *he* made them.

The orcs? Well, they made the choice to break free and be what they once were. Their motives are no longer evil in nature - they just want to live and live as well as they can under the circumstances that have brought them where they are now.

You have to be careful when you try to pick certain situations as "THAT'S EBIL!" If you are going to get crazy lawyering on 'good vs evil' make sure you are doing it right!

Moral's and actions. Moral's and actions.

[Mohan]

According to Blizzard's own lore website the horde in WC2 were not under the influence or rather they got no directions from the burning legion so they took actions on their own. Of their own accord by choice.

I think in this discussion, the word influence is being equated with the word control, when they aren't really the same.

The Horde in WC2 were not under the direct influence (ie control) of the Burning Legion. As in, there wasn't some demon in their heads making them do nasty deeds. They were, however, still under the effects of the bloodlust brought on by drinking Mannoroth's blood. And that made them want to do nasty deeds. Evil, yes. But there was a definitely cause of it.

And as has already been said, there really is no black and white here. It's all one gigantic gray area. Every race has done something in the past or present that's morally reprehensible. Even the tauren did something ages ago to fall out of the grace of the Earthmother (though it's never specifically stated what it was they did) for a time. It's just one of the things I like about the world Blizzard has created. There really is no 'good side' and 'bad side' with the exception of the Scourge and Burning Legion, and they're really bad.

[Karkarov]

Well to sum up...

Burning legion: Evil. They want to destroy all life.... uh yeah. Nothing black and white there.

Scourge: Evil. They want to kill everyone and make them all undead slaves..... something about that doesnt seem good to me.

Arthas: As abric said definately evil. He is like a jedi gone bad. He was given temptation and the chance to take power but at the cost of his humanity and he took that power of his own free choice. Sure he was given some nudges in the right direction, but at no point was anyone "forcing" him.

Alliance and Horde: Basically neither are good or evil. both have part of thier factions wanting war, and both have part wanting peace. Not all tauren are good guys, not all "forsaken" are evil, blah blah blah.

So yeah there is plenty of clear cut evil and even good (argent dawn anyone?) but the player factions are neither. Thus we have room to roleplay any which way we want.

[Vilmah]

but the player factions are neither. Thus we have room to roleplay any which way we want.

Damned straight.