Wielding the Light

[Rohan Orcslayer]

ZING


Blood Elf Paladins that are evil/demonic/dark sith lords.

...Isn't that the point? I mean, they weren't TRAINED as Paladins, they were trained as ruthless Champions of the Blood Elf race who twisted the Light of others (Naaru-whats-his-name) as if it were simply arcane magic.

-Mod's note: I moved this discussion from the "RP Cliche" thread over here to the Lore forums. Seemed a better fit.

[Gorymoru]

Yeah um...being vile and horrifyingly evil, and twisting Light cause you were told to, charged with, are two different things.

[Skaadvik]

Vilmah is pretty unattractive to everyone, especially other orcs.
<--would


Also, despite how they came to the power, Lady Liadrin (or however it's spelled) was embraced by the naaru along with the other Blood Knights. So... if you're evil, you would technically not even have your powers anymore. because the Light would go "NO."

[Naheal]

<--would


Also, despite how they came to the power, Lady Liadrin (or however it's spelled) was embraced by the naaru along with the other Blood Knights. So... if you're evil, you would technically not even have your powers anymore. because the Light would go "NO."

Arthas retained his powers up until he actually rerolled DK.

[Taknar]

Arthas retained his powers up until he actually rerolled DK.

Do you have any idea how many forms need to be filled out before a Naaru can take away the power of the Light from someone? Crazy beaurocracy.

[Raziel]

Do you have any idea how many forms need to be filled out before a Naaru can take away the power of the Light from someone? Crazy beaurocracy.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/hitchhikers-history-11.jpg

This isn't a "Naaru Permission to Restrict Powers of the Light" form.

[Naheal]

Do you have any idea how many forms need to be filled out before a Naaru can take away the power of the Light from someone? Crazy beaurocracy.

That and I think they find it funny to see someone spreading terror and destruction with the light.

"SEE!? WE'RE NOT JUST PEACE LOVING PANSIES! WE LIKE KILLING STUFF, TOO, YOU KNOW!"

[Sinthe]

I kind of have to throw this in, about the whole light thing, especially with Arthas retaining his powers.

Good vs. Bad is entirely relative based on personal belief. Look at, say, the purging of Stratholme. Yes, he killed a large number of innocent citizens. But in his eyes, he was doing right, sparing them from servitude in undeath and keeping the scourge numbers down.

Kind of a post-modern way of looking at it, but in that sense, one could commit acts typically frowned upon with the light, so long as they had a genuine conviction that it was the good, right thing to do.

[Leyujin]

Well, who said the "light" was good in the first place? Scarlet Crusaders can wield the light, and they are pretty much the most uncivilized bunch of torturers and murderers you can get besides flat out evil organizations like the Burning Legion or the Scourge. That's one of the reasons the whole "end justifies the means" is seen in the same vein as the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Maybe you only need to believe in the light, or shadow, to be able to use it? Or the Naaru are quixotic bastards who give it out randomly. This should probably be moved into it's own thread, I don't have anything to say about the actual topic, sorry.

[Malebrignon]

I've never viewed Light or Shadow as forces of Good or Evil. If that were the case, undead priests wouldn't have a Holy tree. While some choose to worship the Light as a godly entity, I don't recall reading anything where the Light answered someone's prayer, unless you consider your spells to be prayers like a D&D cleric's. I've always viewed both Light and Shadow as para-elemental properties. They have their own elementals and probably their own elemental lords. While the Light is something that's generally going to be associated with good, and conversely Shadow with evil, both are tools to be wielded by those with the know-how.

[Athin]

The blood elves have been able to draw power from M'uru to be able to use the Light.
However, it was later revealed that M'uru actually consented to this, that the power was freely given to the blood elves.

I'd say those that can use the Light might be following some greater, but unknown purpose that serves the Light.

So, while the Scarlet Crusade, might be doing evil (to our perspective) things, they are granted the powers of the Light because it serves some greater purpose.

[Malethia]

First off, you need to separate Holy as an energy from the Light, which is a philosophy/religion.

The way I see it, holy energy is wielded as a force of personal strength of personality. Some people gain it through religious faith, some through strength of will - the common thread being the belief of righteousness by the individual that their actions are for the greater good.

So how do the Scarlets manage to keep their powers despite their actions? And how did Arthas? It's because they BELIEVE they're doing the right thing. It's that essential difference that makes it possible. Holy power doesn't make the morality. The individual does.

[The_Golden_Wolf]

I was reading that there are a small minority of Sin'dorei who are still true Paladins of the Light. So apparently not all are Blood Knights? How is this possible?

[Athin]

I was reading that there are a small minority of Sin'dorei who are still true Paladins of the Light. So apparently not all are Blood Knights? How is this possible?

Being a blood elf doesn't mean you're evil. Look at the Scryers.

I'd suggest hanging around A'dal in Shattrath for a half hour or so. Eventually an event comes when one of the grand poobah Dranei comes, and he talks about how the Light grows within us all. We do good, selfless deeds, and the Light grows. We do selfish, evil deeds, and the Light recedes and is eventually squashed.

While the sin'dorei tends to be more, uh, self-centered and pre-disposed to morally ambigous deeds...there will always be the exception to the stereotype.

Also, consider this: I feel the Blood Knights are more akin to the Scarlet Crusade -- fanatic enough about the defense of their beloved Silvermoon, that they would do anything to protect it, even harness the light of a N'aaru.

[The_Golden_Wolf]

Got it. That helps allot actually.

[Rohan Orcslayer]

Alright, I'm tired of all this.

The Light and the Shadow are both, basically, the Force.

[Tiraline]

Okay, in regards to Undead priests having a holy tree: Blizz is a bunch of limp-wrists. I'm sorry, but it's true. Rather than hold to principle (here, lore), they screwed their own lore by trying to create "balance." According to lore (and the WoW RPG), I (when paladin) should be able to turn and exorcise the entire Forsaken population of Tirisfal Glades--right until a Lightslayer comes along and messes me over.

If you look it up, you'll find that the original intention with priests in the MMO was that each race would have a different, specific priest class with specialized abilities and differently named spells. But oops, "balance" for the bums who only play this game to kill stuff and each other--we must homogenize everything! Undead priests, IIRC, weren't supposed to be able to use Holy spells, but had something similar--and a great deal more talent with Shadow.

The game mechanics don't make a lot of sense as they are. Warlocks should slowly go insane. So should people who drink Winterfall Firewater (check where that crud comes from). But "OMG BALANCE!"

And finally, as I conclude my rant about sacrificing principle to placate whiners, that nonsense about "you're good if you can convince yourself you are" is just that: nonsense. I hate to raise the specter of Hitler here, but I'm pretty sure he figured he was totally justified--as do most evil dictators in history. But we all know how evil they really were/are!

Of course, Blizz isn't going to want to propose actual moral guidelines. That could get them in trouble with someone--somewhere--who might sue them or say mean things about them being uncool and stuffy. I hate it when people dabble with concepts of good and evil, yet refuse to draw lines. It's hypocritical, cowardly, and self-contradictory.

If there's no real good and evil, what the Nether are our characters fighting for?!

[Swerto]

It is not a question of morality, it is a question of righteousness. Right and wrong are points of view.

I'm sure the orcs saw the Knights of the Silver hand as the most evil beings in the alliance, an entire order of knights formed to eradicate them.

The Scarlet Crusade is an example of this. They are an order full of paladins and priests who still wield the light, why? Because they believe they are righteous and they are the salvation of Lorderaan.

The light answers all who call upon it.

[Cyrass]

If my memory serves, the Light and Shadow are essentially powered by your own spiritual strength. The stronger your will or faith, the stronger you'd become with these forces. I always felt that part of what defined what you used was determined by intent and self-perspective. If you think yourself holy, and believe your actions are the same, your strength in The Light would grow. This would explain things like the Scarlet Crusade, they truly do believe that they're doing the right thing, and can still channel the Light. Same with Arthas. Until the very end, Arthas believed that he was doing what was right, and thus his powers did not weaken during his campaign in Northrend.

[Tiraline]

It is not a question of morality, it is a question of righteousness. Right and wrong are points of view.

I'm sure the orcs saw the Knights of the Silver hand as the most evil beings in the alliance, an entire order of knights formed to eradicate them.

The Scarlet Crusade is an example of this. They are an order full of paladins and priests who still wield the light, why? Because they believe they are righteous and they are the salvation of Lorderaan.

The light answers all who call upon it.

I understand that Blizz can't reason their way out of a one-slot bag when it comes to questions of good/evil, morality, righteousness, etc. That's what I'm complaining about: rank dabblers who don't think through the implications of what they propose.

[Rohan Orcslayer]

The Scarlet Crusade is an example of this. They are an order full of paladins and priests who still wield the light, why? Because they believe they are righteous and they are the salvation of Lorderaan.


Misspelled Lordaeron there, buddy.

[Cyrass]

Misspelled Lordaeron there, buddy.

Sure enough I did. I can never remember how it's spelled.

[Tiraline]

Sure enough I did. I can never remember how it's spelled.

I was so tempted to say something IC about the Horde not speaking a civilized language, so how could we blame you for messing up so SIMPLE a word...but I just can't get it to come out without looking like a mortal insult.

I must be too cranky to be funny right now. More coffee!

[Swerto]

I always misspell it, for some reason "Lorderaan" is how I think it's spelled.

Not Lordaeron. >_<

[Tiraline]

I always misspell it, for some reason "Lorderaan" is how I think it's spelled.

Not Lordaeron. >_<

*klaxon*

Sensors indicate that we have a Star-Wars fan present, captain. Shall we deploy proton torpedoes and make the jump to hyperspace?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alderaan

[Swerto]

yes.... you caught me. I rped with star wars for many years before I came to the warcraft universe.

Sometimes I still miss SWG, but then I remember about how shitty of a game it was and that the only thing keeping me there as long as it did (the RP) died before I left.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

If I may...

First, I don't necessarily see why the Forsaken should be denied a holy tree. A'dal has willingly accepted them, and without them, the Argent Dawn would be nothing. (During the plague event, Aleria would have been turned if not for an undead Argent Healer in Shattrath)

As for the light and the shadow, much of my belief, and Aleria's belief comes from what the Grand Anchorite has said. The light begins as a feeling, an overwhelming desire to do selflessly do good for the sake of good. The other side of that, the shadow, takes control when one submits to selfishness, to their own vices, and to cruelty.

I assert that those with strong enough wills, and a belief in either the light and the shadow, are capable, though they don't exactly know how, of manipulating magical flows into what we regard as holy or shadow magic.

As for the Blood Elves and the Scarlet Crusade, well... the two have to be seen seperately.

Aleria likes to believe that most of the Blood Elves and the Undead who wield the light are genuinely trying to make things better for their respective peoples.

With the Scarlet Crusade, Aleria believes that they are recieving masked power from a very powerful being. This belief is supported by a book that members of the Scarlet Onslaught carry near New Hearthglen, which is essentailly a copy of General Abbendis's diary. The big thing that she is looking at is the claims that the light was speaking to Abbendis and others. Aleria does not see the light as a single entity, but again, that feeling. It is not something that demands worship as a God might.

A "God" (at least in Aleria's mind) is nothing more than a powerful being that grants power to its followers in exchange for reverance and worship. Whether or not the God claims to be benign or angry, Aleria sees this kind of worship as false. Remember that the Light, and goodness springs out of selflessness and compassion, but how can an infinitely good being promote these things, while being so selfish as to demand such devotion? Devotion is to be earned, not demanded. Furthermore, the diety is more often than not, encouraging a selfish reward for this unwavering, often blind allegiance. Or, the diety is threatening its worshippers, that if they do not continue to worship, then they will endure eternal suffering. How can this be seen as good? (In my own experience, many evangelical Christians lament at the fact that most follow God not out of love but fear, but how can such a relationship be of love when all that is promoted is fear of going to Hell?)

Anyway... without the long, drawn out explanation. Most "evil" people who find themselves wielding the light have had this power bestowed upon them by another entity. (Evil Blood Elves from the Naaru, desperate to give them a chance, the Scarlet Crusade from something else.)

[Swerto]

The light abbendis was talking to hasn't always been there, it wasn't there when the crusade was formed, nor when it turned to madness. The light started talking just a while before wrath.

[Tiraline]

Aleria, you know I like you, but...you're making the same mistake as anyone else, in trying to inject your own beliefs and feelings about the Supernatural into Blizzard's universe.

Unfortunately, this is blunt, but what you think doesn't make a whole lot of difference about what they have or haven't established--just like what you think about the shape of the real Earth doesn't affect its shape. And whether or not you "can't see why Forsaken should be denied a holy tree", that doesn't mean they should have one, according to lore.

/shrug

It's not our universe--in either case. It is what it is, and it doesn't rely on our opinions to be so.

...And incidentally, why on Azeroth is everyone treating A'dal like some kind of God of the Light? Did I miss something?

[Rohan Orcslayer]

The light abbendis was talking to hasn't always been there, it wasn't there when the crusade was formed, nor when it turned to madness. The light started talking just a while before wrath.

If you remember correctly, Arthas, the Old Gods and Dreadlords can all speak into people's minds.

High Abbot Landgren and his Inquisitors (Who would later become the Raven Priests) were greedy and out of control, as seen in such propaganda as Give to the Church and the Light Will Provide (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39358) and Priestly Preening: Be Like Your Betters (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39357), in which they encourage the peasants to live in discomfort whilst the clergy wash their hands in mare's milk. And who do you think condemned all those people to torture? They would take anyone who didn't believe in their way of the Light and get rid of them, or torture them intill they saw it their way. They managed to keep the Crusade in a state of insanity.

Abbendis was desperate. The war with the Scourge and the Forsaken had taken it's toll. Landgren's ideals had twisted her idea of the Light so much, that when she first heard the whispers, she believed them.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Aleria, you know I like you, but...you're making the same mistake as anyone else, in trying to inject your own beliefs and feelings about the Supernatural into Blizzard's universe.

Unfortunately, this is blunt, but what you think doesn't make a whole lot of difference about what they have or haven't established--just like what you think about the shape of the real Earth doesn't affect its shape. And whether or not you "can't see why Forsaken should be denied a holy tree", that doesn't mean they should have one, according to lore.

/shrug

It's not our universe--in either case. It is what it is, and it doesn't rely on our opinions to be so.

Well, in some cases I can see that, but when I was talking about the Forsaken's holy tree, I did mean that in the perspective of lore. There is no way, at least for me, to sit here and say that all Forsaken believe that the light has abandoned them, or that the light would abandon them. Stemming from the premise that the light starts as a feeling to do good things, why can't a member of the Forsaken harbor this feeling?

(One reason why I think the Forsaken should have at least a few paladins... but then, that is a bit of a stretch.)


...And incidentally, why on Azeroth is everyone treating A'dal like some kind of God of the Light? Did I miss something?

I see him more as a powerful being of the light, and revere him in a similar way as paladins revered Uther.

[Tiraline]

There is no way, at least for me, to sit here and say that all Forsaken believe that the light has abandoned them, or that the light would abandon them...

(One reason why I think the Forsaken should have at least a few paladins...)

I see him more as a powerful being of the light, and revere him in a similar way as paladins revered Uther.

Again, these are your opinions. You're entitled to them, but they really don't count for a lot in a discussion of how Blizzard has ordered their universe. Blizz seems to have a notion of the Light within all, and yet also being a separate thing/person/whatever. It confuses me, because it's all very inconsistent.

But we have to work with what we've got.


...This post was brought to you by "Stay on Target": the organization dedicated to keeping discussions to the facts. Not to be confused with the Seeing Things Our Way Enforcement Team (STOW-ET), our mortal enemies. :p

[Ignas]

Alright, I'm tired of all this.

The Light and the Shadow are both, basically, the Force.

I'll try and get Nox over here to post his thesis on this. ;)

Basically, yeah. That's an analogy that many people here can understand.


First off, you need to separate Holy as an energy from the Light, which is a philosophy/religion.

The way I see it, holy energy is wielded as a force of personal strength of personality. Some people gain it through religious faith, some through strength of will - the common thread being the belief of righteousness by the individual that their actions are for the greater good.

So how do the Scarlets manage to keep their powers despite their actions? And how did Arthas? It's because they BELIEVE they're doing the right thing. It's that essential difference that makes it possible. Holy power doesn't make the morality. The individual does.

It don't get much clearer than that.


Regarding Forsaken Priests: Undead, Demons, and severely tainted individuals/peoples are unable to harness Holy energy. They use Fel/Shadow/Unholy/whatever is applicable as Holy energy hurts them. It is purely game mechanics/balance that allows Forsaken to use Holy energy.

If someone really wants to explain game mechanics, then it could be possible that, through harnessing the power of Holy energy from the Naaru (being the giant Holy Light batteries/bug zappers/wind chimes that they are) who have made it possible, then a Forsaken could potentially wield Holy energy.

[Tiraline]

If someone really wants to explain game mechanics, then it could be possible that, through harnessing the power of Holy energy from the Naaru (being the giant Holy Light batteries/bug zappers/wind chimes that they are) who have made it possible, then a Forsaken could potentially wield Holy energy.

And now we get to an interesting discussion!

Do we as players in this game try to reconcile mechanics to lore, or do we politely look the other way and pretend it isn't like that?

[Geofforan]

Undead can use the Light without hurting themselves, just look at Sir Zeliek (http://www.wowwiki.com/Sir_Zeliek).

[Swerto]

If you remember correctly, Arthas, the Old Gods and Dreadlords can all speak into people's minds.

High Abbot Landgren and his Inquisitors (Who would later become the Raven Priests) were greedy and out of control, as seen in such propaganda as Give to the Church and the Light Will Provide (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39358) and Priestly Preening: Be Like Your Betters (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39357), in which they encourage the peasants to live in discomfort whilst the clergy wash their hands in mare's milk. And who do you think condemned all those people to torture? They would take anyone who didn't believe in their way of the Light and get rid of them, or torture them intill they saw it their way. They managed to keep the Crusade in a state of insanity.

Abbendis was desperate. The war with the Scourge and the Forsaken had taken it's toll. Landgren's ideals had twisted her idea of the Light so much, that when she first heard the whispers, she believed them.
I didn't say anything about who the voice was, I know the voice was someone manipulating them.

I'm saying simply that the light isn't some god giving them energy like a giant battery cell, the Crusade use the light because they are self righteous and they call upon it. As long as you believe you are doing good you can still call upon it.

The light and shadow are both FAITH based, if you have faith in what you are calling, and you believe you should be able to and can, then you will.

The most powerful priests/paladins are also the most devout.




Also light doesn't burn Forsaken for some stupid retcon reason. "oh no we're no longer scourge so it no longer burns hur hur hur"

I'm sticking by the "It doesn't kill me, but it sure as hell doesn't feel nice"

[Aquizit]

A sticky lore question, delicious.

No, not really, this one is kinda hard.


Ok, what do we know?

1. Paladins were immune to the Plague. Whether priests of the Light were immune or not, this is unknown.
2. Based on early Forsaken quests, most of the Forsaken priests in Tirisfal are Shadow Priests. They seem to twist the energy in faith itself to serve Forsaken whims, not to do the good of the Light.


I find the Force analogy to be fair when it comes to Priestly powers. I call the Shadow damage that Aquizit and other warlocks use as Void (shadowbolts) or corruption of a living force.

Priests I see as working with a soul's energy. Holy being the pure and 'good,' and Shadow being the less 'desirable' qualities. Since it stems from one's soul and each soul has capacity for both holy and shadow, all priests have access to the other side's abilities.


Now, what one must remember..
THE LIGHT IS A RELIGION.

What we must question:
IS ALL HOLY MAGIC "THE LIGHT?"

This is the crux in the entire argument. The lore as we have it says MAYBE, but I say NO!!


A prime example would be:
Warcraft 3 -- The priests for the Human Alliance were high elves. I'm unsure if the High Elves ever believed in the Light, but I don't put it past them to simply work arcane energies to their obsession with the Sun (then, maybe now too) to soften the energy to mend wounds and strengthen comrades.

So then, where do Forsaken get their holy powers? From a soul.. from INTENT. It is sheer strength of will, not faith in the human religion of the Light.

This is one of those cases where mechanics don't match lore 100&#37;, but the mechanics need to be there. If Forsaken weren't allowed to be priests, then there would be only troll priests.

And don't even get me started on troll priests! Their religion is super different, yet they still wield holy magic!



Oh, and fuck Sir Zeliek and his "I don't want to hurt you but.. BAM TAKE THIS HOLY WRATH TO THE FACE YOU MELEE!!"

... Fuck him.

[Qabian]

And don't even get me started on troll priests! Their religion is super different, yet they still wield holy magic!

Point. Goes for Troll mages, too. Just because the "effects" are the same doesn't necessarily mean the "cause" is the same, especially in terms of the philosophy or even the methodology enacted by the user. You can pull the same "effects" by having faith in/belief in/sheer willpower over a variety of different "causes".

The shifts in game mechanics are definitely valid in terms of being ludicrously questionable, but they don't necessarily have to be ignored. I remember back in beta when Forsaken actually were type undead and actually didn't breathe underwater period. Now they've become all homogenized with the rest of us. Perhaps it's some external influence changing them. A lot of crazy crap has happened since WC3.

Of course, none of that stops my character from assuming that anyone acting the holy fruitcake is "special" and should just smite themselves to death, but he's a jerk.

[Saphiara]

2. Based on early Forsaken quests, most of the Forsaken priests in Tirisfal are Shadow Priests. They seem to twist the energy in faith itself to serve Forsaken whims, not to do the good of the Light.

Without looking at the quest texts you're thinking of, I can't say if that's true or not. What I CAN say is that most Forsaken are adherents of the Forgotten Shadow (http://www.wowwiki.com/Forgotten_Shadow). That faith would probably tend more towards shadow specialization, but I don't see it being required.


Now, what one must remember..
THE LIGHT IS A RELIGION.

The Light in and of itself is a philosophy; I would however say that certain races are more religious about its practice (humans) than others (dwarves/elves). The original buildings were more like libraries than churches, but I would assume the modern versions have become more religious because of the desperate times.

[Swerto]

Without looking at the quest texts you're thinking of, I can't say if that's true or not. What I CAN say is that most Forsaken are adherents of the Forgotten Shadow (http://www.wowwiki.com/Forgotten_Shadow). That faith would probably tend more towards shadow specialization, but I don't see it being required.



Not all Forsaken embrace the Forgotten Shadow, many Forsaken also just refuse to have faith in anything.

Forgotten Shadow is the worship of the shadow, because most Forsaken feel the light has forsaken them (-intended pun-).

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Again, these are your opinions. You're entitled to them, but they really don't count for a lot in a discussion of how Blizzard has ordered their universe. Blizz seems to have a notion of the Light within all, and yet also being a separate thing/person/whatever. It confuses me, because it's all very inconsistent.

But we have to work with what we've got.


...This post was brought to you by "Stay on Target": the organization dedicated to keeping discussions to the facts. Not to be confused with the Seeing Things Our Way Enforcement Team (STOW-ET), our mortal enemies. :p

Well yes, they are, I am not going to be so presumptuous to regard them as facts, which is why I pointed them out as opinions. The reason I do this is because we are examining someone else's lore. Therefore, I cannot know until I AM the person who created the lore. My analysis is an interpretation, as is yours and everyone elses, except the lorecrafter. That is why I am always careful to slide in "I think", and not "I know".

That's one thing I dislike about discussions of theory, an insufficient amount of concrete facts, but then, that's also what makes them interesting. (especially when we're talking about something so vague as the light)

[Swerto]

Again, these are your opinions.
Also take note:
99.9&#37; of things posted on a forum are such.

This is a discussion forum , where you put up opinions. Until Blizzard released the "Holy Book of the Light" And the "Necronomicon... of Shadow" we'll be stuck with opinions and very vague explanations given by quests and quotes.


Speculation is speculation.

[Jeedup]

Honestly, I still dont believe that all 'holy/light' powers come from the Naaru. I think thats a bullshit lore move honestly, especially since a large majority of veteran holy users (like Wc1-2) and the followers of the 'Light' (I cant keep straight which ones the religion at this point) would probably view it as sacralige or hell, FUCKING STUPID THAT IT COMES FROM HUMMING WINDCHIMES MADE OF ROCKS.

but, thats my two copper.

[Saphiara]

Not all Forsaken embrace the Forgotten Shadow, many Forsaken also just refuse to have faith in anything.

Forgotten Shadow is the worship of the shadow, because most Forsaken feel the light has forsaken them (-intended pun-).

If you're not going to even bother reading a post or the links it contains, then don't respond to it.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

Honestly, I still dont believe that all 'holy/light' powers come from the Naaru. I think thats a bullshit lore move honestly, especially since a large majority of veteran holy users (like Wc1-2) and the followers of the 'Light' (I cant keep straight which ones the religion at this point) would probably view it as sacralige or hell, FUCKING STUPID THAT IT COMES FROM HUMMING WINDCHIMES MADE OF ROCKS.

but, thats my two copper.

Well, I don't think they are necessarily considered as Gods, just powerful beings of the light. The Grand Anchorite's beliefs (spoken right in front of A'dal on a daily basis) that the light was essentially a feeling and a desire to do good were put into the game at about the same time as the Naaru.

[Jeedup]

Well, I don't think they are necessarily considered as Gods, just powerful beings of the light. The Grand Anchorite's beliefs (spoken right in front of A'dal on a daily basis) that the light was essentially a feeling and a desire to do good were put into the game at about the same time as the Naaru.

I never refered to the Naaru as gods, or thinking veteran light followers would think they would, I mostly ment they'd probably go: "Uh....what?". Also, The Grand Anchorite is a Draenei, and they REALLY follow the Naaru as 'gifters as the light'. Humans and the other species that use those sort of ablities, probably don't give twiddly fuck.

[Aleria Fadeleaf]

I never refered to the Naaru as gods, or thinking veteran light followers would think they would, I mostly ment they'd probably go: "Uh....what?". Also, The Grand Anchorite is a Draenei, and they REALLY follow the Naaru as 'gifters as the light'. Humans and the other species that use those sort of ablities, probably don't give twiddly fuck.

Ah, ok, I see what you're saying, sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Tiraline]

Well, I don't think they are necessarily considered as Gods, just powerful beings of the light. The Grand Anchorite's beliefs (spoken right in front of A'dal on a daily basis) that the light was essentially a feeling and a desire to do good were put into the game at about the same time as the Naaru.

Not quite (http://www.wowwiki.com/Grand_Anchorite_Almonen).

"It has been made known to me that inside each of us, the Light resides...
...that it is a gift, given freely to all naturally born beings.
It manifests itself as a feeling, small at first and easily ignored, that confirms truths and subtly prods one to do good."

I reside in my house, but I do exist outside the context of my house. Also, manifestation is not the sum of being; it's merely the humanly-perceptible side of whatever is manifesting.

Think of it like this: you perceive that I'm happy when I smile. That's my happiness manifesting itself to you. But my happiness is NOT my smile. It has a separate existence from YOUR perception. (I'd have used a more theological example, but I really don't feel like having people mock what I believe today.)

Now, in direct contradiction of what he JUST said about the Light residing in all of us, though:

"Sadly, there are those who wander through mortality in defiance of the Light.
From these the Light withdraws, until only darkness remains."

So it's in everyone, but it's not, because it leaves mean people--but it still works for the mean Scarlets, who ignore the promptings to do nice things and instead do evil horrible things. When it leaves those mean people, it doesn't cease to exist, but it's not there, and--ARGH!

It's a gift, which implies a giver, and human paladins don't get it from the naaru (obviously), but the naaru aren't going to tell us that all-important bit of information of who is the GIVER?! ARGH!

That's me manifesting frustration. You can see why these contradictory little things annoy me.

This is a cheap attempt at creating a "good-guy" philosophy without imposing solid moral restrictions or naming Names, as it were--so everyone can be a good guy without actually having to live up to standards. (The average person's dream, I daresay; everyone WANTS to think they're basically good...)

You wind up with a hideous mess of conflicting ideas that ultimately end you up with no real guidance except "do nice things that make people smile--but only if you think you should, because if you think it's right to kill babies and rape women, then you can do that too and it's all good."

It's the one thing that irritates me endlessly about this game universe: it's irrational in the extreme, and it's born of Blizz's desperate need to justify their thoughtless errors and inconsistencies--not to mention their wicked urge to break lore because "that would just be so cool!". (Paladins getting the plague during the Scourge Invasion event, for instance...)

Very simply put: "I feel in my real personal life that [insert spiritual belief here]" is probably going to be a lot more carefully thought out than Blizzard's theology, as it were. Therefore, it doesn't help much.

...Part of what's wrong with this stuff is that it touches on matters that are at the core of who we are as individuals. It touches on our beliefs regarding eternal realities, and so we bring our own prejudices to it. That's what makes this discussion so downright difficult, and so very hard to keep to the straight-up facts rather than digressing into "I feel" and "I believe IRL". I've caught myself doing it, too.

That's the content of my head before coffee. I think I'm about done with this discussion now, because I'm starting to "raise my voice" in print. Believe it or not, I don't actually go looking for things that make me frustrated...:p

[Swerto]

I can call the air and wind a gift from god but that doesn't make it so.

It's another magical energy like Arcane, Arcane isn't coming from some god.

[Sanrin]

I know Sir Zeliek was mentioned in this thread earlier and promptly ignored. But he's a pretty good example of someone who uses the light even in corruption, due to significant amount of faith.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Sir_Zeliek

The light isn't really all that picky. It just wants to be your friend.

[Ignas]

It seems as though the lines between philosophy and power have been somewhat blurred. Perhaps it is simply an explanation made by the practitioners for what they see as a blessing of power. "We have this power, something that few have. We have been blessed by <insert obscure deity here>." It's just a way of saying how they have the power they have even if the power is not that hard to control and command.

We KNOW the Draenei were imbued with knowledge of the Light. i.e. They were taught how to control the Light by the Naaru. That does not necessarily mean that the Naaru are a source of the Light. HOWEVER, the Blood Knights somehow siphoned it out of a Naaru, so.... *headdesk* Though, now we know that this was a sacrifice made by the Naaru to 'redeem' the Blood Elves i.e. A sneaky way of giving them control over the Light for goodness and niceness. How well has that worked out?

At this point, I'm just gonna say that the Light and Shadow are part of the same fundamental power. It seems like a form of animatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animatism) to me. And now we have our little "Force" analogy here again.

Well, whatever. Just trying to make sense of the senseless it seems. It's a game to me, so I never take anything in it seriously.

Oh, also, a holy Troll (http://www.wowwiki.com/Zabra_Hexx) for ya Aquizit.

[Kirick]

As if we don't have enough religious debates in the real world, regarding manifestations of divine power, we have to have one here, too?

The Light is a power. Sometimes people use it. It's also a philosophy. Sometimes people follow it. It's also a religion. Sometimes people practice it.

Sometimes people use the power differently, and in contradictory ways, just like power in the real world. Sometimes people follow the philosophy differently, and in contradictory ways, just like philosophies in the real world. Sometimes people practice the religion differently, and in contradictory ways, just like religion in the real world.

It's different for different people. There is not and will never be a right or wrong answer, because it is a game, the mechanics of which are not and will never be consistent, and which do not and will never mesh perfectly with the lore.

[Cyrass]

I know Sir Zeliek was mentioned in this thread earlier and promptly ignored. But he's a pretty good example of someone who uses the light even in corruption, due to significant amount of faith.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Sir_Zeliek

The light isn't really all that picky. It just wants to be your friend.

Well, Zeliek is a prime example of what I believe is the source of The Light actually is. He's got a very strong spirit. Obviously not enough to be free of Arthas' grip, but enough for him to be able to warn people, urge them to turn back, and feel guilt over what he's being forced to do. He is still able to channel the light due to his strong spirit and faith, even though his will has been subverted.

[Fhenrir]

Of course, Blizz isn't going to want to propose actual moral guidelines. That could get them in trouble with someone--somewhere--who might sue them or say mean things about them being uncool and stuffy. I hate it when people dabble with concepts of good and evil, yet refuse to draw lines. It's hypocritical, cowardly, and self-contradictory.


I understand that Blizz can't reason their way out of a one-slot bag when it comes to questions of good/evil, morality, righteousness, etc. That's what I'm complaining about: rank dabblers who don't think through the implications of what they propose.

These points don't make much sense to me. What lines do you think should be drawn to make things more interesting, or less "cowardly" as you phrased it? How has Blizzard as a collective story-teller failed to provide answers regarding morality and righteousness?


If there's no real good and evil, what the Nether are our characters fighting for?!

This is actually the intent. There are quests leveling up in which you employ dirty tactics, are forced to pick between two good-intentioned factions (Sholazzar Basin factions), and torture people to death on multiple occasions.

It's an interesting and much more realistic direction of story-telling that's been taken, and is usually presented very clearly in the rivalry that's existed between the Horde and Alliance since the Horde quit being fulltime villains back in WC3. Good and evil are rarely clear-cut. You're supposed to question your motivations and find the lack of an easy answer frustrating.

[Tiraline]

...Why are you asking me questions? I said I was done with this thread.

I'm not going to get into the discussion of expedient morality with people--as in, morality only has value when it's convenient. In fact, I said I was done. Period.

I'm not impressed with Blizzard. That's it.

Now, enjoy your further discussion of mechanics vs. lore.

[Kained]

I"M A DARK SITH LORD

[Swerto]

Kained you're a vampire

QQ about cliches somewhere else.

(just kidding <3)