DK Talent Choices: Analysis & Discussion

[Catilyn]

This thread was created after seeing the interest of it's sister counterpart about Death Knight Glyphs. (as seenhere (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=14354))
Again, please feel free to post/discuss your own or anyone else's choices of Talents and reasons behind them. I implore you.


So...
Currently, I have 61/0/10 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305021533033313231251013510000000000 000000000000000000230002300000000000000000000000&glyph=010911040601) as my plan for level 80; should I decide not to take Hysteria at that point in time I plan to replace it with Corpse Explosion.

The aforementioned build plan was designed with mass self-healing in mind and was inspired by the Vampire Build I noticed on WoWwiki (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVGqccIsfRtzAoZfM0h).
Honestly, I didn't alter it very much, but it suits my needs better than it did before IMO, as I was going for a slightly more PvP point of view.


Vampire (61/0/10) (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVGqccIsfRtzAoZfM0h) This build is designed for the 2Hers out there that love all of that health coming right back to them! The build was designed specifically to allow the Death Knight to generate large amounts of health regeneration for itself and even allow it's party members to gain health! It was originally inspired by a Retribution Paladin build. Recount values have shown this build to heal 15-20% more than other blood builds, and has shown to do amost 100 DPS more than other 2H builds. The Vampire build is designed more for a PvP build, because of its large amounts of DPS and survivability. Vampire makes any Death Knight...well...much like a Vampire! You have to use a 2H weapon for this build to be at it's most effective state. Summoning a ghoul during larger fights inceases the DPS even more! All in all, this build is great for those that love to Solo fast, with almost NO downtime at all, and for those that love to PvP! You will NOT find a better Blood build out there, guaranteed! Main stats of focus (from most important to least) Strength, Agility, Stamina. Other focuses are on Attack Power, Hit rating, crit rating. tested


Additionally, allow me to explain that I am not here to say that my opinions are exactly what you should be doing and are defiantly better than so and so's; far from it, the job of this thread is to understand and weigh the pros and cons of different user-submitted suggestions in order to determine a Talent Spec that feels right for you. Having said that, any sort of feedback is encouraged.

[opalexian]

I've been playing with blood recently, and I don't know whats up but my DPS seems to be suffering (probably has to do with my attack rots too, off to theorycrafting I go >_<) Anyway, I've found a number of talents in blood that just don't seem to be worth it that are on that build-bloodworms, dancing rune weapon, and hysteria. I've not tried hysteria yet but it just doesn't seem like something that would be of much use unless you were really on top of casting buffs. Since DKs don't normally, this would just be...odd. As for bloodworms and dancing rune weapon, they just seem like a waste of points. I didn't feel like the worms were healing me enough to warrant spending 3 points, and rune weapon barely lasted long enough to do much extra damage-with a full bar you're still only going to get 10 seconds out of it, but it didn't seem like that much. I'm working on going 50/0/21, but not sure how that will pan out-I don't think I want a gargoyle, they aren't all that useful either IMO. I'll let you know more what I come up with when I have it.

[Swerto]

Well... I'd say Unholy is probably the most fun tree, I've really enjoyed playing my dad's DK.
Blood seemed to suffer with damage output by comparison, really haven't tried Frost. I'll see this weekend when I finally grab wrath and install it.


Oh yeah that's right people, I'm back


DEWM!

[Moknim]

I've been playing with blood recently, and I don't know whats up but my DPS seems to be suffering (probably has to do with my attack rots too, off to theorycrafting I go >_<) Anyway, I've found a number of talents in blood that just don't seem to be worth it that are on that build-bloodworms, dancing rune weapon, and hysteria. I've not tried hysteria yet but it just doesn't seem like something that would be of much use unless you were really on top of casting buffs. Since DKs don't normally, this would just be...odd. As for bloodworms and dancing rune weapon, they just seem like a waste of points. I didn't feel like the worms were healing me enough to warrant spending 3 points, and rune weapon barely lasted long enough to do much extra damage-with a full bar you're still only going to get 10 seconds out of it, but it didn't seem like that much. I'm working on going 50/0/21, but not sure how that will pan out-I don't think I want a gargoyle, they aren't all that useful either IMO. I'll let you know more what I come up with when I have it.

This seems to be what I am hearing - Blood has the lowest sustained DPS, but there are some neat things you can do on a boss (like pop DRW and the Raise Dead - apparently the Rune Weapon will summon a corpse as well).

Blood aura is terrible (I think), and the DPS is sub-par. To make blood a viable raid spec, it will need some serious buffing, though. I have not respecced to frost yet, but of blood/unholy I much prefer the blood playstyle.

[Tillna]

Blood is all about Regen. Frost is all about HARD hits. You wanan stack so much crit..

gonna try this build and see how it works...

[Naheal]

Just gonna toss this out there. It seems to me that Hysteria is close to what AW is for ret pallies. The damage you take is minimal and healable through your own abilities, so there's nothing wrong with that part.

[Averilyna]

Don't count out DRW just yet, it works like Gargoyle does, that is, after the initial cost and 10 seconds, it drains some runic power every second to stay up. If your RP gen is good enough, you can get a very nice duration out of it (or so I am told). That said, I haven't actually tried it, but I do know that Gargoyle is really really nice for single target dps.

[Moknim]

I just looked at the spec - epidemic has been better than unholy command in my leveling, and I can't see unholy command being very useful in a raid situation where a few seconds of a mob hitting you = death.

[Catilyn]

Like I said, I had that build planned with more of a focus on PvP (hence Unholy Command) and besides, I've never had a problem with the application of my Diseases (no matter how many enemies were attacking me).
The Diseases applied from Pestilence lasts long enough for me to Pestilence a different mob, thereby renewing the Diseases on all the other targets again. Rise and repeat as necessary.



Don't count out DRW just yet, it works like Gargoyle does, that is, after the initial cost and 10 seconds, it drains some runic power every second to stay up. If your RP gen is good enough, you can get a very nice duration out of it (or so I am told). That said, I haven't actually tried it, but I do know that Gargoyle is really really nice for single target dps.
Dancing Rune Weapon (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49028) does NOT function like Gargoyle (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49206).
Dancing Rune Weapon (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49028) siphons all currently available Runic Power and does not inflict you with the RP-Drain over time buff that Gargoyle (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49206) gives you.

[Advurb]

PvP Unholy, best PvP build there is. 21/0/50

[Alana]

PvP Unholy, best PvP build there is. 21/0/50

Most informative post evar. Not.

[opalexian]

Most informative post evar. Not.


Yus, moar info plz

[Kaliera]

This seems to be what I am hearing - Blood has the lowest sustained DPS, but there are some neat things you can do on a boss (like pop DRW and the Raise Dead - apparently the Rune Weapon will summon a corpse as well).

Blood aura is terrible (I think), and the DPS is sub-par. To make blood a viable raid spec, it will need some serious buffing, though. I have not respecced to frost yet, but of blood/unholy I much prefer the blood playstyle.


I'm not sure what people have been telling you that blood is suboptimal DPS, but it's currently the best single-target option that DKs have available to them. With the proper spec (51/13/7) and rotation, a DK in blues at 80 can push out numbers between 2.5-2.8k dps. The scaling that the spec offers is absolutely incredible.


Most informative post evar. Not.

His post actually had some semblance of usefulness, mocking him really doesn't. Regardless, this is roughly the spec he's talking about:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jctMqc00oZZfMhhLbkxcqMcoux

It's flexible with most of the points spent, but the key points are picking up (Imp) Rune Tap, Mark of Blood, Scourge Strike, and Bone Shield. This build allows for a disgustingly large amount of on-demand survivability while being able to put out decent damage as well. It's kind of hard to justify being anything else for serious PvP when you consider the tools the spec has to work with.

[Lascivious]

His post actually had some semblance of usefulness, mocking him really doesn't.

true but since he bitches so much about everything all the time, it was hard to resist. especially since i appreciate the actually informative threads from everyone in this one and the glyph one. the day i was getting into beta my internet was cut off and i have to rely on all you beautiful people for information.

in addition to the base tanking spells all DKs get, Unholy seems to have more talents that are more tank-friendly than the other trees pretty much the same reason you pointed out it's great for PVP, as well as some other neat ones. I've been trying to decide between that and Frost for tanking. I'm leaning Frost because I like the buffs it brings to the raid it I'm stuck DPSing and I kinda like the 'you can't hit me' approach to damage mitigation the talents have. other than the anti magic bubble i don't remember without looking if Unholy had any other abilities the raid could take advantage of. Anyway, tanking is my priority for my DK, I'm just not sure which way to go. so far everyone seems to concentrating solely on DPS and not tanking techniques, abilities.

[Advurb]

There was a link... I guess I forgot to put it in. But the one Kaliera posted is it.

[Moknim]

I'm not sure what people have been telling you that blood is suboptimal DPS, but it's currently the best single-target option that DKs have available to them. With the proper spec (51/13/7) and rotation, a DK in blues at 80 can push out numbers between 2.5-2.8k dps. The scaling that the spec offers is absolutely incredible.

Interesting. I was just going with what I had been reading on EJ (as I have no DK to test with, yet). Good to know that Unholy isn't going to be the end-all be-all (as I much prefer the blood playstyle).

[Catilyn]

in addition to the base tanking spells all DKs get, Unholy seems to have more talents that are more tank-friendly than the other trees pretty much the same reason you pointed out it's great for PVP, as well as some other neat ones. I've been trying to decide between that and Frost for tanking. I'm leaning Frost because I like the buffs it brings to the raid it I'm stuck DPSing and I kinda like the 'you can't hit me' approach to damage mitigation the talents have. other than the anti magic bubble i don't remember without looking if Unholy had any other abilities the raid could take advantage of. Anyway, tanking is my priority for my DK, I'm just not sure which way to go. so far everyone seems to concentrating solely on DPS and not tanking techniques, abilities.

I've compiled a list of such abilities, just for you.
Note that links to the max rank are included.

List of Tank Friendly Talents for Death Knights

Unholy:
Morbidity (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49565): Halves the cooldown of Death and Decay (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49938) and increases the healing of any Deathcoils (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49895) you might cast on yourself while Lichborne (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49039) is active.
Anticipation (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55133): Does exactly what it says on the tooltip, 'nuff said.
Unholy Command (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49589): More of a PvP talent considering the cooldown on Dark Command (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=56222).
On a Pale Horse (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51267): Pretty "meh" IMO since you have abilities to prevent getting CC'ed in the first place.
Magic Suppression (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49614): This is where it gets interesting, a very useful but situational talent.
Desecration (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55670): The only use for this that a Tank has is to slow down any runners. Party/Raid members are not effected by the +5&#37; Damage buff gained.
Anti-Magic Zone (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51052) The followup talent of Magic Suppression; again, situational but very useful.
Unholy Aura (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50392): Situational, but still useful. Think Void Reaver or Prince Malkazar type fights.
Bone Shield (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49222): While at least 1 bone remains, <he/she> takes 40% less damage from all sources. Each damaging attack that lands consumes 1 bone.

Blood:
Rune Tap (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48982): That's 10% of your Total Health, not current Health or Base Health.
Improved Rune Tap (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49489): Increases the talents effectiveness to 20% Total HP.
Mark of Blood (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49005): Self-explanatory once you read the effect.
Bloodworms (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49543): Effectively provides a constant stream of incoming Health; not to be underestimated.
Vampiric Blood (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55233): This includes ANY healing weather it be Potions, Bandages, Bloodworms or other players. HoTs and direct.

Frost:
Toughness (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49789): More armour means more survivability.
Lichborne (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49039): Increases dodge by 25% and makes you Immune to various CC. (Like say, Maiden of Virtue Repentance)
Frigid Dreadplate (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51109): Reduces the chance melee attacks will hit you by 3%. Stacks with things like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=48468).
Frost Aura (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50385): For level 80, this would mean +80 Spell Resistance to all party/raid members within 45yds.
Unbreakable Armor (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51271): Increases Armour, Parry and Strength (more parry)
Acclimation (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50152): 50 spell resistance to you and the whole raid, stacking 3 times for a total of 150 spell resistance. Can be used to resist Holy Damage
Guile of Gorefiend (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50191): Increases the duration of your Icebound Fortitude by 6 secs
Tundra Stalker (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=50130): Increases your expertise by 5 along with a DPS boost
Hungering Cold (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49203): An AoE CC spell for 60 Runic Power.


*Pants heavily* Okay, did you get all that? o.O
It took me a surprisingly big chunk of time to put this together, so i hope it's of use to you all. Thankyou!

[Taknar]

Keep in mind all the things in blood that are useful for tanking that seem indirect. Things like Spell Deflection, Veteran of the Third War, Will of the Necropolis, and (I can't believe this was left out as I would smack any tank that doesn't have this) Blade Barrier.

I feel the urge to weigh in more on this topic, but I'll have to save it for later. RP beckons!

[Naheal]

Myth 1: Unholy/frost/blood is the only viable DPS/Tanking tree.

You can viably (even quite successfully) tank in all three of these trees. Your tanking style and what you excel at is simply different as these three specs.

[Catilyn]

Keep in mind all the things in blood that are useful for tanking that seem indirect. Things like Spell Deflection, Veteran of the Third War, Will of the Necropolis, and (I can't believe this was left out as I would smack any tank that doesn't have this) Blade Barrier.

I feel the urge to weigh in more on this topic, but I'll have to save it for later. RP beckons!

Of course!
Sorry, I was half-asleep at the time of writing ^^;;
I'll update the list in a while.

[Lascivious]

Are any of you dual wielding? Most of the spells/talents are based on weapong damage and great for burst DPS. i'm usually healing or tanking role with my druid - DPS isn't normally a role I fill. would dual wielding be better for DPSing so you're not laying down any crazy burst damage that might steal the target from the target from the tank?

[Taknar]

Tank threat generation is through the roof. You really have to have a lucky string of crits to pull aggro off them. As a DPS frost spec, I have opened fights with three crits in a row before and still only just gotten to 100&#37; threat, still shy of the 110% threat needed to pull aggro.

As for the DW vs. 2H situation, there are just far more specs that allow 2H than there are for DW. The fact that nearly all abilities scale with weapon damage hinders DW alot.

[Kaliera]

Are any of you dual wielding? Most of the spells/talents are based on weapong damage and great for burst DPS. i'm usually healing or tanking role with my druid - DPS isn't normally a role I fill. would dual wielding be better for DPSing so you're not laying down any crazy burst damage that might steal the target from the target from the tank?



So long as the tank isn't passed out at the keyboard, there really isn't such a thing as pulling aggro from them anymore. Threat is at a pretty disgusting height at the moment.

As for dual wielding, there's been discussion of a frost/unholy hybrid dual wield spec that could "keep up" with 2h Blood or Unholy specs, but I haven't delved too deep into it. I plan to eventually, as dual wield DK tends to be a very fast and fun playstyle. My only worry is it's effectiveness, since it was pretty damn awful in beta in comparison to two-handers.

[Lascivious]

So, just another way they made the game "easier"? You damn casuals!

[Taknar]

I believe the goal was to take some of the raid focus off the MT and make encounter more about positioning and healing.

[Kaliera]

I believe the goal was to take some of the raid focus off the MT and make encounter more about positioning and healing.

That, and to make pugging less of a nightmare in five mans. Nothing was more infuriating than the lone BE huntard opening up with multi-shot and immediately feigning his aggro onto the healer.

[Taknar]

That, and to make pugging less of a nightmare in five mans. Nothing was more infuriating than the lone BE huntard opening up with multi-shot and immediately feigning his aggro onto the healer.

Yeah, this is true to an extent. But I really don't think it's the developer's place to make up for skill defict of players. It's a social thing. There are two ways to handle it: tell them how to fix it and hope they don't have an ego, or never group with them again.

I have enough friends from RL and guild and TS and etc. that I don't need to pug, and I don't suffer the masses.

/endOffTopic

[Kaliera]

...never group with them again.

Mhm.

They did however state that dealing with threat wasn't "a fun mechanic, as it's based around an invisible number" (paraphrased). Unless you were a prot paladin, tanking AoE packs was a chore for most even without considering the random huntard hell bend on attacking something not skulled.

I follow your same school of thought though, Taknar. If I'm tanking for friends, I can not only count on them not playing like shit, but I can count on the instance being completed quickly to boot. Win-win.

[Catilyn]

So... I've been tinkering around with all the trees lately and each one seems to have something I want; thus, I decided to make my own "fun spec" which is comprised of as many talents that I found either usefull or just awesome to have, the point of the whole thing is to provide the most utility in the most enjoyable way possible.

MMO-Champion Link > 21/11/39 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2304021503000010000000000003052000100 000000000000000000230222300123113053131000100000&glyph=010911030604)
WoWhead Link > 21/11/39 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfmMqc00oZhg0zZfMrhzfkheso0o)

As soon as Duel-Specs become available (http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/12/08/ghostcrawler-on-dual-spec-and-loot-tied-to-achievements/) I may very well go ahead with this plan I've made, but first I would appreciate any feedback you can give me.

[Taknar]

So... I've been tinkering around with all the trees lately and each one seems to have something I want; thus, I decided to make my own "fun spec" which is comprised of as many talents that I found either usefull or just awesome to have, the point of the whole thing is to provide the most utility in the most enjoyable way possible.

MMO-Champion Link > 21/11/39 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2304021503000010000000000003052000100 000000000000000000230222300123113053131000100000&glyph=010911030604)
WoWhead Link > 21/11/39 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfmMqc00oZhg0zZfMrhzfkheso0o)

As soon as Duel-Specs become available (http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/12/08/ghostcrawler-on-dual-spec-and-loot-tied-to-achievements/) I may very well go ahead with this plan I've made, but first I would appreciate any feedback you can give me.

ZOMG so many buttons! I hope you enjoy keybinds, cause you'll need them. Other than that, it looks like it would be a fun build to play around with while soloing, doing BGs, or 5 man instances. Lacking the expertise and the damage boosting talents that are found deep in the trees will hurt you though.

For example, you have little to do with your FUs. Obliterate will wipe your diseases and you don't have Scourge Strike to replace it with. You will end up either using DS until your diseases are just about to wear off, then close with Oblit, or use blood strikes if you can (which since the blood strikes option makes the death runes redundant, you could reposition those talent points).

Just initial thoughts.

[Catilyn]

Hmmm, I havn't test this out myself yet, but lets say your right.
What if I swapped 3 points from Dark Conviction into Death Rune Mastery?
& perhaps all 3 from Desecration to max out Annihilation.

It'd plan looks like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfmMRI00oZhg0zhZfMrhzfkheoo0o). Thoughts, anyone?


ZOMG so many buttons! I hope you enjoy keybinds, cause you'll need them.
I have everything keybound. Literally.

[Chingaso]

5/52/14 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xZG0xthxdRhRVostf0MIz) is where I think I am headed. DPS from frost is just sooo seductive...

[Jobolg]

5/52/14 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xZG0xthxdRhRVostf0MIz) is where I think I am headed. DPS from frost is just sooo seductive...

While I'm also a fan of frost, it really doesn't seem like Ravenous Dead would be worth much without a permanent pet. It would only affect you 1 out of every 5 minutes on a pet you can't control, and 3% strength isn't all that impressive. I'd say they might go better in Virulence. 3% better chance to hit with spells is pretty good for frost, which makes good use of spells. The dispel resist on your diseases is just a bonus.

I think I might try something like this http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jci0acZGTxzG0d0GRIsst for PvP. It offers a lot of survivability through Frost talents and Imp. Rune Tap, plus it gives Obliterate an extra 31% chance to crit just from talents.

Alternatively, I'm considering going down Unholy for this: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZGTxzG0d0GRIsstbgG0zbo build. Not quite as much survivability (Rune Tap is awesome), but it's got some other fun tools like Corpse Explosion I might use on occasion. I come back to life as a ghoul, and importantly, On a Pale Horse. As an orc (15% stun reduction), with On a Pale Horse (20% stun reduction) and eventually the stun duration reducing metagem (15% stun reduction), stuns will, I assume, only last half as long on me. Very handy when I don't have my trinket available.

[Chingaso]

Good point Jobolg. Thanks.

This thread delivers!

[Zya]

I think I might try something like this http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jci0acZGTxzG0d0GRIsst for PvP. It offers a lot of survivability through Frost talents and Imp. Rune Tap, plus it gives Obliterate an extra 31% chance to crit just from talents.

You took Imp. Rune tap over Vendetta. Finally someone who realizes that one better heal is better than two crappy ones (one you can cast when you like, and the other only occurs when you kill something).

I am glad I am not crazy.

[Swerto]

Looking at this for a final build (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZ0xxzZf0MItfkxeqocout)

Thoughts/input?

[Yatokth]

Looking at this for a final build (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZ0xxzZf0MItfkxeqocout)

Thoughts/input?

It sucks.

[Swerto]

Elaborate in a non-flamey way.

[Yatokth]

Elaborate in a non-flamey way.

It doesn't suck, I'm messin with ya.

The thing is, for Unholy, why do you want Lichborne? I mean, it's pretty good, but with Bone Armor, AMZ, and you're beefed AMS, you should go for more offensive power, Unholy has tons of control and defensive abilities. Thus, go down blood for more crit and AP.

If you still want unholy blight, you can, just don't go down to mark of blood.

If you're set on unholy/frost, then it looks okay, though I might consider 3/3 Imp Icy Touch for the extra damage and slowing effect instead of full black ice.

[Swerto]

I'll take that into consideration, thanks. I really like lichborne, so far it has been VERY useful, both in PvP and while tanking/solo leveling.

[Taknar]

If you are deep unholy then having Lichborne isn't always going to be "more of", if you get my meaning. Unholy has the most powerful death coils, which means that any healing you gain off of the Lichborne is going to be best as unholy. Toss on the glyph that lets you cast death coil for 20 RP if you are healing, and that goes a long way.

[Swerto]

Are you able to cast death coil on yourself with lichborne up? I haven't tested that. I'll have to try it. I might have found my alternative to rune tap.

[Taknar]

Yes you can, and it is marvelous! You can use save up RP if you know you are going to use it and then launch off a whole bunch.

With a full bar of 100, you can cast one and go to 80, cast two and go 60, cast three and go to 40, cast four and go to 20, and then two RP generating abilties will get you a fifth heal. Very nice boost to 15&#37; mitigation.

[Advurb]

Looking at this for a final build (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZ0xxzZf0MItfkxeqocout)

Thoughts/input?

I'm assuming you want to pvp with this spec. In that case, Necrosis is a terrible choice, and so is Unholy Blight. These points would be better spent in Night of the Dead and Dirge. Also, Unholy/Blood builds are better for PvP than Unholy/Frost because of the insane survivability boost. For a good PvP build, armory Ronzak. I'd get the link but Armory is down.

[Swerto]

Played with it a bit (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZ0xxzZf0MIkfogeqofkut)

I dropped gargoyle because of how much of a rune power whore it is, dropped most of necrosis but kept one point for a little extra auto attack damage.

Moved a point into wandering plague to add more AOE damage for solo PvE.

[Advurb]

Well I have no idea what you're speccing for, if it's solo PvE I agree but for PvP you'll want gargoyle. He hits like a truck. Wandering Plague is bad for PvP because it breaks CC.

[Catilyn]

Actually, it doesn't. Wandering Plague (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49655)
"Ignores any target under the effect of a spell that is cancelled by taking damage."

[Advurb]

Actually, it doesn't. Wandering Plague (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49655)
"Ignores any target under the effect of a spell that is cancelled by taking damage."

Ah, it got changed since beta then. Still though, the points would be better used somewhere else.

[Swerto]

Maybe I'll take it out of wandering plague and put it in gargoyle... I just don't like that he's such a rune power whore.

So here we go (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZ0xxzZfzMIzfkgeqofout)

[Catilyn]

Take a look at Catilyn's Unholy Talent Plan for 80 here (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbZhg0zZfMMhtfkxcq0fsut)

You'd be surprised the amount of damage Wandering Plague can dish out, it's like an extra passive AoE. This plan allows me to keep particular talents that are just plain awesome like Gargoyle. Also, I've never had problems with Runic Power generation.

I should note that you can Death Pact your Gargoyle without sacrificing your Ghoul, amazingly handy.

[Advurb]

But what is this build for?

[Catilyn]

An all-rounder

[Advurb]

Oh.. I generally spec for specific things so I guess I have no advice.

[Alibar]

Doing a bunch of boring number crunching in my spare time, I have found a Death Knight DPS "cookie cutter" build and as of right now, the build proven to have the highest damage per minute on a single target, time and time again. While of course, not ignoring certain key talents that happen to not be single target offense.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=230502050000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000002302303301201150501512031031 51

A few things I've found..

-An Unholy Specced Death Knight, with the right talents and diseases up, using Scourge Strike will always hit harder than a Frost Death Knight, with the right talents, using Obliterate. By themselves, Obliterate does more damage, however, the talents you get in the Unholy Tree that buff Scourge Strike just flat out destroy those that buff Obliterate.

-As of right now, dual-wielding Death Knights generally do far more damage than 2H Death Knights. Not to mention that the dual-wield spec. talent in Frost is just plain better than the 2H spec. talent in Blood. However, Unholy/Blood is still king for single target DPS, keeping in mind the AP. increase and +Crit.

-This is, quite simply, the best single target DPS build I've tested. And I've tested six different builds. If anyone has something else, I'd love to see it, but the combination of the AP and Crit in Blood, as well as the High Damage DoTs, Full Time Ghoul, Gargoyle and the pure win that Scourge Strike is, beat out all other builds I tested by a wide margin. Blood/Frost, Frost/Unholy, Blood/Unholy, etc.

-You can use Death Coil on yourself while Lichborne. A Blood/Frost/3 Unholy build can destroy in solo PvP, due to the insane amount of healing that you can do to yourself, but it will never be an ideal raiding spec, nor arena spec, I would think. I can see Anti-Magic Zone being an absolute must for Arena DKs. (Edit. Looks like someone already posted the Lichborne thing.)

-Night of the Dead, in Unholy, doesn't seem to work. It would seem like it would grant an ability, but it doesn't. It doesn't seem to Proc. either. If anyone knows how it is used, please let me know. It seems ideal for BGs, seeing as you have to resummon your ghoul whenever you die.

If anyone wants more exact details of the testing (what weapons I used, exact specs, DPM numbers, rotations, etc.), please do let me know. But it's almost 5AM here and I need to get some sleep. Haha.

EDIT: I just pulled this out of my rear in about 30 seconds or so, so I could have missed something. But this, just off the top of my head would look like a great DPS/Self Heal build with the Sudden Doom Talent and Regen Talents in Blood, Lichborne Talent/Melee Crit in Frost and Morbidity in Unholy.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=230402153300031323125101351305200 01300000000000000000000300000000000000000000000000 00

[Tillna]

The nigh tof the dead works so that when your Abilites are on CD< ten strieks after, their CD is reduced, IE, adding ten minutes off the counter for Army and 2.5 minutes off Raise Dead.

[Advurb]

Night of the Dead works fine for me. just watch your cooldown wheel whenever you ps or ss. From a PvP standpoint, Lichborne is just bad. Sure, you can heal yourself a bit by wasting all of your runic, but Blood Tap is going to help a lot more because it heals your entire party. Mark of Blood is also excellent for stopping a switch or just a dps team in its tracks. Lichborne is just too situational: paladins and priests will dominate you.

[Swerto]

Lichborne also decreases how often you are hit by anyone other than paladins.


And against paladins (if their good) you're usually going to die anyways as unholy.

[Advurb]

If you have well supporting teammates and a good understanding of how to stand behind a pillar, you shouldn't be getting hit in the first place. Most teams won't be focusing DKs first because of their ridiculous survivability. Thus, Rune Tap/Mark of Blood is better than Lichborne because it lends more to the DKs role in arena: support.

[Kaliera]

There's an...awful lot of misconception in here.



http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=230502050000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000002302303301201150501512031031 51

A few things I've found..

-An Unholy Specced Death Knight, with the right talents and diseases up, using Scourge Strike will always hit harder than a Frost Death Knight, with the right talents, using Obliterate. By themselves, Obliterate does more damage, however, the talents you get in the Unholy Tree that buff Scourge Strike just flat out destroy those that buff Obliterate.

No. Both Blood and Frost Obliterates tend to do more damage than Scourge Strike, but those abilities are not the only ones used by their respective specs, so they end up doing less damage throughout an entire fight with just obliterate than an Unholy DK spamming Scourge Strike. The overall numbers are about the same.


-As of right now, dual-wielding Death Knights generally do far more damage than 2H Death Knights. Not to mention that the dual-wield spec. talent in Frost is just plain better than the 2H spec. talent in Blood. However, Unholy/Blood is still king for single target DPS, keeping in mind the AP. increase and +Crit.

I've got no clue where you came up with the numbers on this one, but DW requires a VERY specific tri-spec to work, and it requires an entirely different set of gear (crit/hit focused) to make it even on par with two-handed specs of any sort. DW does not even come close to doing "far more" damage than two-handed wielding.


-This is, quite simply, the best single target DPS build I've tested. And I've tested six different builds. If anyone has something else, I'd love to see it, but the combination of the AP and Crit in Blood, as well as the High Damage DoTs, Full Time Ghoul, Gargoyle and the pure win that Scourge Strike is, beat out all other builds I tested by a wide margin. Blood/Frost, Frost/Unholy, Blood/Unholy, etc.

You've picked up a ton of very non-DPS oriented abilities at the expense of very good DPS oriented abilities. Drop Magic Suppression and AMZ. Both of those are at best PvP abilities or for use by specific unholy tank specs. On a Pale Horse and Corpse Explosion are also both horrible PvE talents, though CE may be worth it with the love it gets next patch. Outbreak, while a DPS boost, is one of the lowest boosts you can get out of the Unholy tree, so drop that one too. With those 12 (!) points, pick up Necrosis, Reaping, Dirge, and 2 points into Blood-Caked Blade. Now, personally, I detest Desecration in a PvE environment, as it won't stay up long enough to cover a full rotation, and drops off even sooner if said rotation is extended by a Glyph of Scourge Strike proc. I personally dropped it out entirely in favor of another point in B-CB, three points in Wandering Plague, and one point into Night of the Dead. I'll explain the logic behind that point further down.



-Night of the Dead, in Unholy, doesn't seem to work. It would seem like it would grant an ability, but it doesn't. It doesn't seem to Proc. either. If anyone knows how it is used, please let me know. It seems ideal for BGs, seeing as you have to resummon your ghoul whenever you die.

When you place talent points into the ability, it can be thought of as a passive buff that's on you at all times. If you summon a ghoul, the cooldown on Raise Dead begins at five minutes. From then on out, every time you hit with Plague or Scourge Strike, that cooldown is reduced by 15/30 seconds. This over the course of a fight will allow you to summon your ghoul multiple times in the case of it's very likely death. This will be even more valuable in the next patch where DKs get two forms of Raise Dead to work with.


Edit: For what it's worth, this is what I'm currently using for a PvE dps spec: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMVZZfMhhxckgcoMssut

[Yehvon]

from my DK experience, I have had the most fun pvping in the frost tree. There are 2 buffs I can use in combat, a instant cast silence, and a talent that will allowing all my ice casts to cause you to suffer the effects of chains of ice :).

Unholy is just too easy right now; lay down the diseases, send pet in, DD, and death strike spam. It isnt that compeditive like Frost is imo. Plus with all the casting and healing in Arena's next week I would rather have a frost DK in 3v3/5v5 than an unholy to help CC the healers.


My promblem with blood is that in order to do any dps you need more than 2 blood runes and more runic power. Its like once you do plague strike and blood strike you have to wait a second before you can do any other strikes where as frost the rotations keep going all the way up to where you can even do x2 frost strikes in a row.

My favorite build right now are:
-20/51/0 for frost pvp http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355020500000000000000000003202505133 502100321030101350000000000000000000000000000000&glyph=000000000000
-17/0/54 for unholy pvp http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305020500000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000230220335002115203150003103151&glyph=000000000000
-17/31/23 for hybrid fun action http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0325020500000000000000000003202500131 502100321000000000235231300020110000000000000000&glyph=000000000000

for all 3 specs you need lots for AP and crit. Crit is very valuable in frost and AP is very valuable in unholy. Blood requires a bit of both imo.


I am also having a hard time understanding why they put DW buffs in the DK class trees. (frost obviously) Now when I tried DW i did see a increase in my icy touch dmg because, as an orc, I was doing more crit white hits at a time and my frost talent allowed my crits to give my next frost spel a chance to instantly crit. But that is it as far as DW dk's go as to being of any use.

I wish they had a talent that works like a warriors WW where they did damage but it also did double if you were DW. Or maybe even a "strike" type deal where you could attack with both weapons at the same time.

[Advurb]

@Kaliera's post

That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't so sure about the numbers. I'm liking 50/13/7 for PvE atm, but it only seems to be good on longer boss fights. In dungeons/trash I just can't get the rotation going well enough to do any kind of good dps. Doesn't help that I'm in greens.

[Kaliera]

@Kaliera's post

That's what I was thinking, but I wasn't so sure about the numbers. I'm liking 50/13/7 for PvE atm, but it only seems to be good on longer boss fights. In dungeons/trash I just can't get the rotation going well enough to do any kind of good dps. Doesn't help that I'm in greens.

I imagine you mean 51/13/7? :P

There's a lot of debate between which is better for straight dps between your build and my own, though my current gearset compliments Unholy far better, mostly due to my sigil. Once my gear ascends towards higher tier 25 man stuff, I'll likely swap back to deep Blood for the better scaling.

[Advurb]

I'm not really a PvEr, but I felt like seeing big crits. I read that it was being debated and I just decided to go with Blood because I hadn't tried it. I did enjoy 10k Rune Striking though.

[Aest]

Kaliera,

I'm going to dig up a few of my tests and try and be a bit more specific. I still believe what I had said. As for talents such as AMZ.. Like I said, I said that I didn't want to not pick up some very good utility abilities at the cost of some DPS abilities that are just a bit useful. I also think that Outbreak is a bit more useful than you might think, especially the +30&#37; Plague Strike damage.

EDIT: Posted this on wrong character.

[Kaliera]

Kaliera,

I'm going to dig up a few of my tests and try and be a bit more specific. I still believe what I had said. As for talents such as AMZ.. Like I said, I said that I didn't want to not pick up some very good utility abilities at the cost of some DPS abilities that are just a bit useful. I also think that Outbreak is a bit more useful than you might think, especially the +30% Plague Strike damage.

EDIT: Posted this on wrong character.

30% might seem like a bug number, but 30% added onto shit is still shit. ;) Plague Strike is a pretty awful ability for DPS, considering the DoT effects (unscaled by Outbreak) and Scourge Strike are the bulk of Unholy's dps.

Now, as far as AMZ, it's certainly a good ability, but you stated that you figured it was the best potential single-target DPS spec. Due to the fact that it has added utility at the cost of DPS talents, that's obviously not true. The spec has it's purposes of course, but the best STDPS wouldn't be it. :)

[Alibar]

Well, as I said.


Doing a bunch of boring number crunching in my spare time, I have found a Death Knight DPS "cookie cutter" build and as of right now, the build proven to have the highest damage per minute on a single target, time and time again. While of course, not ignoring certain key talents that happen to not be single target offense.

As a person who does weekly arenas, I certainly consider things like AMZ and the ability to turn yourself into a ghoul very key. Now, perhaps I was wrong in it being a completely single target raid spec, as I'm sure I could take purely DPS talents and neglect other things, but IMO, it's just far more beneficial to take at least *some* talents other than DPS.

As far as Plaugue Strike and Outbreak go.. Well, first off, Outbreak is mostly a filler. Even so, Plague Strike isn't too horrible for damage. I crit in the mid-high 1000s with it very regularly, and I'm 78. Now of course, it isn't Scourge Strike. But it isn't bad by any means, and you need to use it fairly often anyway to refresh diseases/keep desecrated ground up.

Also, my newest spec took some points out of Impurity and put it into Dirge/Blood Caked Blade instead.

[Zephrythos]

To be perfectly honest, if you're going to do weekly arena and still do PvE DPS, you should respec. Why do mediocre in both when you can do excellent in both with a bit of coin? It's not like respec money is hard to make.

[Taknar]

As far as Plaugue Strike and Outbreak go.. Well, first off, Outbreak is mostly a filler. Even so, Plague Strike isn't too horrible for damage. I crit in the mid-high 1000s with it very regularly, and I'm 78.

At the same level as you, I crit as Frost spec with my opening hit of Icy Touch for 2100 minimum guaranteed. And that is a 200% modifier instead of your builds 230% modifier on Plaque Strike. And every time you don't crit with it (and I'll be generous and say that's only 60% of the time) you are only hitting for 826 (assuming you crit around 1900) compared to Frost's Icy Touch hitting for about 900ish.

No matter what way you dice it plague strike isn't that great a DPS ability, even in the spec that would seem to make the most work for it.

[Kaliera]

To be perfectly honest, if you're going to do weekly arena and still do PvE DPS, you should respec. Why do mediocre in both when you can do excellent in both with a bit of coin? It's not like respec money is hard to make.

This is probably the best advice in this entire thread. Gold is easier than ever to get in Wrath, and the option for dual specs is going to make respecs that much more trivial. I've never really understood the concept of "hybrid-role" builds, as a lack of focus tends to turn "hybrid" into "terrible at everything".

I too do weekly arenas, weekly raids, and heroics damn near every day. I wouldn't be caught dead with a non-optimal spec for each role I was in said groups for.

[Aest]

But 1800-1900 isn't much of a difference between 2200. Both of those numbers are not bad. Now, I'm not arguing that Plague Strike is an awesome DPS attack. It isn't. But the DPS is not absolutely dreadful, like it seems people are making it out to be. Now say.. Blood Boil? I will wholeheartedly agree with you that it sucks. But what I'm saying, is that I think a talent that increases Plague Strike DPS by 30% can contribute a decent amount to your DPS. Especially when you have to use it often for disease refreshes/desecration refreshes.

As far as respecing, I agree. To an extent. Some classes/specs far moreso than others. However, I think certain Death Knight builds can do both very well. Single target DPS works for raiding, as well as arenas. So do certain utility abilities. Now, are there builds that are almost purely good for PvP or purely good for arenas? Yes. But not all of them.

I'll put it this way, and yes, I know DKs are not Paladins or healers. But Pre-WoTLK, a 41/20/0 build could heal both raids, and arenas perfectly. And was the desired spec to heal both. As I said, I know DKs are not Paladins or healers, but I could find a spec like that I bet for most, if not all classes in this game. My point is, I bet DKs have one like that too.

[Kaliera]

I suppose we're just looking at different angles. I tend to be a min-maxer myself. If I'm in a position to DPS, I do my damnedest to DPS as hard as I can, and that involves tweaking my talents until I can't push my numbers any higher than they are. As it stands though, the difference between a hybrid build and a "pure" dps build isn't just about 200 DPS, it's closer to 800-1000.

For a brief period, I tried to run with an "off-tank" build. It was abysmal. I tanked half-assed, and when called to DPS, I put out damage numbers barely ahead of the tanks. I personally can't have fun doing that. Instead, I snagged a full time tank to take my spot, and I went full-out dps. The difference between a half-spec and a full-spec was the difference between 2200 DPS and 3500+. It's really rather massive.

[Aest]

See, I'm the same way.. The problem here, is that I just don't see the build below as a Hybrid Build..

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=230502050000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000002302303301201150501512031031 51

There are only three DPS based abilities in that build that I don't have..

-Necrosis (+10&#37; Auto Attack Damage.. So if I auto attack for 1000 Damage, I now hit for 1100? I just don't see that justifying 5 points in any way, shape or form.)

-Impurity (Spells receiving 25% more from your attack power. Unless I am mistaken, there are three abilities I should have that counts as a spell. Unholy Blight, Corpse Explosion and Icy Touch. Icy Touch is the only one of those I see being useful in a PvP OR Raiding Environment. I can't justify spending 5 points on this anymore than Necrosis.)

-Wandering Plague (Someone said it does some alright-ish AOE Damage. But it's either spend three points on that that, and two on NoTD, or spend 5 Points on Desecration, or you won't have room for the crit in the Blood Tree. Just in my opinion, Desecration wins hands down.)

Reaping, I'll give you that one. Blood Runes can come in handy, but you're only really gaining them from Blood Strike.

###############

Now of course, if I spend anymore in Unholy, I won't be able to get the crit/AP in Blood. Not that I would want to spend anymore, really, unless it's on Reaping or NoTD.

So, I just do not see how this isn't a DPS build. Yes, it has some VERY useful utility abilities at the cost of, IMO, other completely worthless abilities. But it definitely shouldn't make anywhere close to even an partially-slight difference in DPS.

I also want to reiterate that Outbreak is a filler, more than anything. It's either that, or spend 2-3 points in Necrosis. I chose Outbreak.

[Kaliera]

You need to keep in mind that the design decision blizzard has when it comes to most talents is that a talent is balanced when it's activation can increase your DPS by at least one percent per point.

Taking this goal into consideration, take a look at Necrosis. 10% additional damage from auto-attacks is more than a 1% increase point per point. Is it a phenomenal talent? No, it is not, but when going for a pure DPS build, skipping a lackluster talent in favor of a more lackluster talent due to the points being filler isn't optimal.

Looking at your justifications (which are logical given the circumstances, don't get me wrong), I have to assume you are not running Glyph of Scourge Strike.


Use: Your Scourge Strike has a 25% chance to cause Blood Plague and Frost Fever.

The rotations this glyph allows makes for incredibly DPS efficiency, as Scourge Strike is by far the best scaling ability in an Unholy Death Knight's arsenal. The idea in mind by utilizing this glyph is to bring IT + PS applications to a bare minimum, which makes points placed in talents that scale the two initial strikes at an even lower value, which is where my distaste for Outbreak in Unholy DPS builds stems from.

The points in Reaping allow for a very easy to work with rotation that generates massive amounts of Runic Power without expending runes on low DPS abilities. The rotation tends to be as follows :

IT: Icy Touch
PS: Plague Strike
BS: Blood Strike
SS: Scourge Strike

IT -> PS -> SS -> BS -> BS

*dump Runic Power here*

SS -> SS -> SS

Now, keep in mind that in this rotation, four scourge strikes have been used. Taking into account a 25% proc chance, the odds are quite high that the duration of Frost Fever and Blood Plague will be refreshed at least once in this rotation, leaving you open to continue without applying the two diseases.

SS -> SS -> BS -> BS

*RP dump*

SS -> SS -> SS

The only time you should have to refresh the two initial diseases is if they have less than five seconds remaining, where it then becomes a safe bet to just reapply the diseases instead of leaving it up to chance.

A side effect of this rotation is that the lack of Plague Strikes cause a complete lack (or at best rare occurrences) of Desecration. Now, while a 5% damage buff seems like a good investment (remember, 1% boost per talent point is par for the course), the buff it provides is limited to time spent inside the desecrated ground. These days, mobility is king. I see that you picked up Unholy Aura in your spec, so I'm sure you're quite well aware of this fact! Sadly, it brings about the side effect of not being able to rely on being within desecrated ground 100% of the time; which in itself isn't even 100% possible considering Epidemic increases the time between Plague Strike applications to be longer than Desecration lasts. It is for this reason that I opted against putting any points into Desecration for a PvE raid build in favor of talents that are useful to me 100% of the time, no matter how little or large their effect.

If you'd like, I can go into detail about the justification of my other talent choices as well. I find that hardly any of them are true filler talents, as each play their specific role in increasing overall damage dealt, either through me or through the allies with me. If nothing else, I'd strongly suggest at least giving it a shot. The difference is truly staggering.


Edit: I should probably clarify my definition of a "hybrid" build, since you seem to have called out the phrase. I personally believe a hybrid build is one that puts points into moves that do not directly improve a designated role. You say yourself that you're shooting for a DPS role, though looking through the spec I count eight talents (2/2 On a Pale Horse, 5/5 Magic Suppression, 1/1 Anti-Magic Zone) that have no impact on personal nor raid DPS increase. On the other hand, there are fourteen ( [3] Wandering Plague, [3] Reaping, [2] Dirge, [3] Blood-Caked Blade, [5] Necrosis ) talents available that have a direct effect on personal DPS.

While the talents you picked do have utility (especially AMZ), they do not benefit your chosen role of DPS from a literal standpoint. The talents work to assist the healers (who should really not be leaning on a DPS class for assistance anyways, but that's my opinion and another can of worms to deal with), which turns the spec into a DPS/Assist "hybrid". S'not a crack at the spec by any means, as it obviously serves a purpose, but I'd be hard pressed to call it a pure DPS spec.

[Villayna]

thanks for posting Kaliera :)

I hadn't really considered dropping desecration. I had already planned on swapping my points in outbreak to necrosis based on some number crunching someone on EJ did. I'm gonna keep my On a Pale Horse unless I start getting into progressive raiding though. I <3 moving fast. Otherwise my build's pretty identical to yours.

[Aest]

Well, first things first.. I do run Glyph of Scourge Strike. My rotation, is this..


IT, PS, SS, BS, BS

*Runic Power Dump*

SS, SS, BS, BS

Now, quite simply, two Blood Strikes generally do more damage than a Single Scourge Strike, leaving the Blood Runes turned into Death Runes completely pointless. Blood Strike does 50&#37; Weapon Damage, plus 158, doing damage damage per disease. Scourge Strike does 60%, plus 158. Doing 113 and slightly less damage per disease. The only difference, between the two, being talents (I need to state the point that one of the talents my build has in Blood, increases BS damage.) and 10% more weapon damage on SS. Subversion in Blood, makes Blood Strike crit more than Vicious Strikes makes Scourge Strike crit, although Vicious Strikes increases crit damage by 30% also. While I agree that for pure damage, (ignoring the threat decrease in Subversion), Vicious Strikes helps Scourge Strike more than Subversion helps Blood Strike, the sheer superiority of two Blood Strikes compared to one Scourge Strike makes the damage of these two even, if not, making the Blood Strikes better.

As for Desecration, I agree with you, but only to a point. It entirely depends on the encounter. Some bosses and most trash, you will not be mobile. Other bosses and some trash, you will not be. Regardless, It should be very useful in raids, and it's not like you cannot refresh it if you move.



While the talents you picked do have utility (especially AMZ), they do not benefit your chosen role of DPS from a literal standpoint. The talents work to assist the healers (who should really not be leaning on a DPS class for assistance anyways, but that's my opinion and another can of worms to deal with), which turns the spec into a DPS/Assist "hybrid". S'not a crack at the spec by any means, as it obviously serves a purpose, but I'd be hard pressed to call it a pure DPS spec.

I can certainly agree with this. However, regardless I can see all of those talents (AMZ, which requires Magic Supression to get), with the exception of On A Pale Horse/Unholy Aura, perhaps, having some sort of a use in raiding, regardless if it's actually DPS or not. Perhaps it is not a Pure DPS spec, but I still see it as a raiding/PvP spec, the only thing that doesn't improve raiding being things like Unholy Aura and On A Pale Horse, which is 4 points, on a Pale Horse being a filler more than anything, my other option being Necrosis. Unholy Aura, I suppose I could pick NoTD/Wandering Plague over it.

Maybe I pick certain utility talents over certain DPS talents, but the DPS talents I skip over, I really do think are minimally useful at best, and I chose some (IMO) very good utility talents in their place.

[Kaliera]

Well, first things first.. I do run Glyph of Scourge Strike. My rotation, is this..


IT, PS, SS, BS, BS

*Runic Power Dump*

SS, SS, BS, BS

Now, quite simply, two Blood Strikes generally do more damage than a Single Scourge Strike, leaving the Blood Runes turned into Death Runes completely pointless. Blood Strike does 50% Weapon Damage, plus 158, doing damage damage per disease. Scourge Strike does 60%, plus 158. Doing 113 and slightly less damage per disease. The only difference, between the two, being talents (I need to state the point that one of the talents my build has in Blood, increases BS damage.) and 10% more weapon damage on SS. Regardless, two BSes beat one SS hands down.

Would you mind linking your armory? I mean no offense by this, but I'm quite certain that your gear is to blame for the discrepancy between Blood Strike x2 and Scourge Strike damage comparisons. My blood strikes crit for about 2k tops, while my Scourge Strike regularly crits for 7k+ with a chance to refresh my diseases. To me, the decision is a no-brainer.


As for Desecration, I agree with you, but only to a point. It entirely depends on the encounter. Some bosses and most trash, you will not be mobile. Other bosses and some trash, you will not be. Regardless, It should be very useful in raids, and it's not like you cannot refresh it if you move.

Trash should never be a factor in deciding what spec to use while raiding unless the group you run with regularly wipes to trash and considers it progression. I can't imagine that being the case with anyone considering that most groups just AoE trash down with a single tank holding it all, or two at most.

For bosses though, you state that it is refreshable. You are correct in that it's refreshable, but you do so at the cost of an Unholy Rune, which is obviously required for Scourge Strikes. Sacrificing what could be between 4-7k damage and resetting an unfinished rotation simply is not worth it in favor of putting down another immobile 5% damage buff that only you benefit from.



I can certainly agree with this. However, regardless I can see all of those talents (AMZ, which requires Magic Supression to get), with the exception of On A Pale Horse/Unholy Aura, perhaps, having some sort of a use in raiding, regardless if it's actually DPS or not. Perhaps it is not a Pure DPS spec, but I still see it as a raiding/PvP spec, the only thing that doesn't improve raiding being things like Unholy Aura and On A Pale Horse, which is 4 points, on a Pale Horse being a filler more than anything, my other option being Necrosis. Unholy Aura, I suppose I could pick NoTD/Wandering Plague over it.

Again, while AMZ is useful, I would never bring an Unholy Death Knight to my raid for the sole purpose of bringing AMZ if he were DPS spec. When I look at DPS classes, I want them DPSing. If a tank picked up AMZ, I'd bring him along, as it's clearly there to assist with mitigation, the tank's priority. To each their own, but again, I strongly disagree with sacrificing DPS talents in favor of mitigation in DPS builds.

On Unholy Aura, those are actually the best two points you can possibly put into your build assuming you are the only Unholy DK in the raid. This is a very interesting read:


Originally Posted by Zurm:

Let's do some napkin math, shall we? In a 25-man, let's assume we have 7 melee DPS. Now lets assume we are on a fight like KT, with approximately 10% running time with no run speed enchant, and let's also assume a personal sunstained DPS of all melee to be 4k. These are all fair numbers from what we have seen on beta, shifted slightly to make the math easier to follow. Now, without any runspeed enchant, we could expect each individual member to do:

4000 * (1-.1) = 3600 DPS, and combined: 3600 * 7 = 25200

Now, if we increase running speed by 15%, we increase the (1-.1) = .9 multiplier to 1-.087 = .913. Re-doing this:

4000 * .913 = 3652 DPS, and combined: 3652 * 7 = 25564

Or a net raid DPS increase on this fight of 364. This is also just purely the DPS benefit from a running fight. This doesn't factor in the ability to hit your WHOLE raid with a 15% boost on fights like Heigan to make it easier (while it's not needed to have this speed boost on heigen, it certainly helps, especially with the achievement where no one can die t his bursts). Also, you will most likely be near to the tanks at all times, and allowing the tanks to grab targets more easily is extremely helpful.



For two talent points, you essentially grant the entire raid ~300 DPS due to less time spent out of combat. That's immense.


Maybe I pick certain utility talents over certain DPS talents, but the DPS talents I skip over, I really do think are minimally useful at best, and I chose some (IMO) very good utility talents in their place.

I certainly agree with the usefulness of said utility talents. AMZ is a phenomenal skill, but I whole-heartedly believe it is relegated to a tank's role. You won't see feral DPSers speccing down to Nature's Swiftness due to it's ability to throw a clutch utility heal on a hurting tank, and likewise I wouldn't expect other DPSers to pick up mitigation/healing talents outside of pure filler.

[Kaliera]

thanks for posting Kaliera :)

I hadn't really considered dropping desecration. I had already planned on swapping my points in outbreak to necrosis based on some number crunching someone on EJ did. I'm gonna keep my On a Pale Horse unless I start getting into progressive raiding though. I <3 moving fast. Otherwise my build's pretty identical to yours.

Happy to help! =]

Considering the Death Knight is a new class, I'd really prefer not to have it become the new Hunter. I'd be happy to work with most anyone if they're having trouble with the class, or have any questions pertaining to it that they haven't found answers to elsewhere. I've got too much time on my hands as is, might as well occupy myself with something constructive. :s

[Taknar]

Kaliera, make me a frost raid build STAT! =D

[Kaliera]

Kaliera, make me a frost raid build STAT! =D

Deeps, or tankin'?

[Aest]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=Alivar

Regardless of the Armory, though.. I think a math check would be more useful here..

I'm going to use this weapon, for my example, (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=39417), a drop of Kel'Thuazad in Naxx. The example below is going to be based off off of pure damage from the weapon, as right now, me using just hypothetical examples, the gear does not matter anyway. I'm just going to use the base damage. Of course, the actual numbers will be higher based on your other gear, but the base damage is all that really matters for this example.

The weapon hits from 531-831, base. I'm going to say that the weapon hits for 750 on both a Scourge Strike, as well as a Blood Strike. I am also going to assume that Ebon Plague, Frost Fever and Blood Fever are all on the target.


The Scourge Strike hits for 926.5, base.

(750 x .60) + 190.5 + (95.25 x 3)


The Blood Strikes would hit for 852 base, EACH.

(750 x .50) + 191 + (95.5 x 3)

Multiplying that twice, that's 1704, for the cost of one Scourge Strike.

###################

Unless I am completely missing something, the base damage for one Scourge Strike, compared to the base for two Blood Strikes, assuming the weapon and gear is the same, the weapon hits for the same amount, and all three diseases are on the target, completely blows a single Scourge Strike out of the water, according to the math.


Originally Posted by Zurm:

Let's do some napkin math, shall we? In a 25-man, let's assume we have 7 melee DPS. Now lets assume we are on a fight like KT, with approximately 10% running time with no run speed enchant, and let's also assume a personal sunstained DPS of all melee to be 4k. These are all fair numbers from what we have seen on beta, shifted slightly to make the math easier to follow. Now, without any runspeed enchant, we could expect each individual member to do:

4000 * (1-.1) = 3600 DPS, and combined: 3600 * 7 = 25200

Now, if we increase running speed by 15%, we increase the (1-.1) = .9 multiplier to 1-.087 = .913. Re-doing this:

4000 * .913 = 3652 DPS, and combined: 3652 * 7 = 25564

Or a net raid DPS increase on this fight of 364. This is also just purely the DPS benefit from a running fight. This doesn't factor in the ability to hit your WHOLE raid with a 15% boost on fights like Heigan to make it easier (while it's not needed to have this speed boost on heigen, it certainly helps, especially with the achievement where no one can die t his bursts). Also, you will most likely be near to the tanks at all times, and allowing the tanks to grab targets more easily is extremely helpful.

That was a very interesting read, and certainly Unholy Aura is more useful than I thought. However, keep in mind that this is only for one fight. Some boss fights (I'll disregard trash, since you are right on that.), you are completely still the vast majority, if not all of the fight. Some fights, you move around a lot.

That still remains my point for both Desecration, as well as Unholy Aura. The usefulness completely depends on the boss that you are fighting. Desecration is useful on fights where there is little movement, which there is plenty of in this game and regardless, it will get much use in raiding, although moreso on some bosses, than others.

[Kaliera]

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&n=Alivar

Regardless of the Armory, though.. I think a math check would be more useful here..

I'm going to use this weapon, for my example, (http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=39417), a drop of Kel'Thuazad in Naxx. The example below is going to be based off off of pure damage from the weapon, as right now, me using just hypothetical examples, the gear does not matter anyway. I'm just going to use the base damage. Of course, the actual numbers will be higher based on your other gear, but the base damage is all that really matters for this example.

The weapon hits from 531-831, base. I'm going to say that the weapon hits for 750 on both a Scourge Strike, as well as a Blood Strike. I am also going to assume that Ebon Plague, Frost Fever and Blood Fever are all on the target.


The bolded section of this is what throws your math off entirely. I know this is stating the obvious, but you don't raid while naked with just a weapon, so basing a comparison using math based on characters just using a weapon is faulty at best, and useless at worst. The fact that Scourge Strike has more scaling based on weapon damage means that it will hit harder as your gear gets better. That's the basis of my argument about your gear being an issue.

Keep in mind that using Scourge Strike over Blood Strike x2 also comes with other benefits.

1) It's shadow damage, and thus is unmitigated by armor

2) It has a chance to refresh your diseases, letting you waste less unholy and frost runes on disease application

3) It is effected by Sigil of Awareness ( http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40207 ), the best Sigil available by a wide margin

4) It saves an extra GCD for a bigger RP dump window (VERY mild benefit, but still a benefit)


Edit: On Unholy Aura, the math there is based on one encounter. To be honest, I consider that fight a fairly stationary encounter, and the DPS math behind it shows a 300+ increase. Now, take a fight like Thaddius, Gluth, Grobbulus, Four Horsemen, Anub'rekan, Heigan, Loatheb, or Sapphiron, all fights which I consider to contain even more running than KT himself. It's an amazing investment for two points, and this is without mentioning the fact that your raid no longer has to lean on run speed boot enchants, and can instead slap on DPS/mitigation enchants instead.

[Moknim]

I don't know that much about DKs (and almost nothing about unholy), but a straight Blood Strike v. Scourge Strike comparison doesn't seem right in my mind since they use different runes.

I will add that Unholy Aura is an INCREDIBLE buff. It was really missed in our Anub 10-man attempt (making Anub a real tank challenge). For that fight I consider it almost required (since you don't have to rely on the expensive run-speed enchants like Kali noted).

[Aest]

The bolded section of this is what throws your math off entirely. I know this is stating the obvious, but you don't raid while naked with just a weapon, so basing a comparison using math based on characters just using a weapon is faulty at best, and useless at worst. The fact that Scourge Strike has more scaling based on weapon damage means that it will hit harder as your gear gets better. That's the basis of my argument about your gear being an issue.

Alright, let me use an exaggerated example. I am going to say, that your weapon damage is 5000 per hit. Is this possible? Of course not, but I'm going to pretend like it is possible, to give an idea of how these two attacks scale, with a lot of weapon damage.

Using the same situation as before, but with a large weapon damage.

Blood Strike: (5000 x .50) + 191 + (95.5 x 3) = 2976.25 x 2 = 5954.25

Scourge Strike: (5000 x .60) + + 190.5 + (95.25 x 3) = 3476.25

###################

Once more, an extremely large difference. And this is using an exaggerated. In reality, if you were in the best gear in this game, the difference would be even larger. Just the large difference in damage more than makes up for the differences you listed. And if you want, I can factor in the rotations/GCD/talents for a DPM equation, and prove the two Blood Strikes even further, though that would take a bit. :)

As for the Unholy Aura, I agree with you that it's a good way to spend two points. And there certainly are fights that have a lot of moving around. The fact remains though, that there are a lot of fights where you remain mostly stationary as well and at the very least, fights where you are stationary for 16 seconds at a time, which is enough time passed to where you will need to renew diseases.

EDIT: For brain fart and use of wrong words.

[Kaliera]

Alright, let me use an exaggerated example. I am going to say, that your weapon damage is 5000 per hit. Is this possible? Of course not, but I'm going to pretend like it is possible, to give an idea of how these two attacks scale, with a lot of weapon damage.

Using the same situation as before, but with a large weapon damage.

Blood Strike: (5000 x .50) + 191 + (95.5 x 3) = 2976.25 x 2 = 5954.25

Scourge Strike: (5000 x .60) + + 190.5 + (95.25 x 3) = 3476.25

###################


Are you pulling your strike data from wowhead? The numbers there are incorrect. Based on the numbers straight from the client, I've got this solution, which I'll base off of 1,500 damage, the average range of my current white damage unbuffed.

BS: (1500 x .50) + 250 + (125 x 3) = 1375 x2 = 2750

SS: (1500 x .60) + 317 + (158 x 3) = 1691

A significant difference, at base levels. Let's apply sigils.

With appropriate sigils:

BS: (1375) + 90 = 1465 x2 = 2930
SS: (1691) + 420 = 2111

With Rage of Rivendare:

BS: 1465 x (1.1) = 1611.5 x2 = 3223
SS: 2111x (1.1) = 2322.1

With Ebon Plaguebringer:

BS: 1611.5 x2 = 3223
SS: 2322.1 x (1.13) = 2624.09

Even with napkin map, you can see that the end difference, 3223 vs. 2624.09 is significantly smaller. At this point, assuming no tier set bonuses or critical strike chances, two blood strikes would be the better option from a strickly point-per-point basis, though this negates the chance of refreshing your diseases in order to replace an IT+PS rotation into a SS instead.

Keep in mind that the only talent beyond the two above that affect Blood Strike beyond the base white damage conversion is Subversion, which increases it's critical strike chance by 9%. Scourge Strike's equivalent talent increases it's crit chance by 6%, but tacks on an additional 30% bonus damage to it's damage.

Critical strike values:

BS: 1611.5 x (2.0) = 3223 x2 = 6446
SS: 2624.09 x (2.3) = 6037.41

Once again, the damage difference is smaller. My current unbuffed paper doll crit chance is sitting at 32% when talented. Assuming 2 piece tier set, which can be obtained from heroics alone:

BS: 41% (9% talents)
SS: 43% (5% two piece, 6% talents)

While only a 2% chance, the chance is still higher.

Even with these factors included, the gap between the two still exists, until you factor in the fact that bosses have armor, while the shadow damage component of Scourge Strike bypasses it entirely. It tends to be assumed that after armor reduction abilities have been applied, there's roughly a 20% reduction in physical damage taken by most boss mobs. Time to factor that in.

Noncrit:

BS: 1611.5 x (.80) = 1289.2 x2 = 2578
SS: = 2625.09

Crit:

BS: 1289.2 x 2 = 2578 x2 = 5156.8
SS: = 6037.41

The difference is now significantly in favor of Scourge Strike, even without taking into consideration the fact that SS has a slightly higher crit chance, and with a four piece tier bonus, the strike grants an additional 10 runic power, which makes managing a Gargoyle for it's full duration while flinging Death Coils significantly easier. This is also without taking into account it's chance to refresh diseases, which is an even bigger gain in total damage done.

On the other side, these calculations do take into assumption that one has obtained the proper Scourge Strike sigil, which is only obtainable from one boss in 25 man Naxx. Considering this is hardly a fair assumption to make for a level 78 Death Knight, I'd concede that the difference between BS x2 and SS is negligible, though still quite likely in favor of Scourge Strike due to the additional benefits the strike provides.

[Yehvon]

Are any of you dual wielding? Most of the spells/talents are based on weapong damage and great for burst DPS. i'm usually healing or tanking role with my druid - DPS isn't normally a role I fill. would dual wielding be better for DPSing so you're not laying down any crazy burst damage that might steal the target from the target from the tank?

I noticed that as i was leveling in outland that my dmg output from spells didnt change. Of course I was frost at the time so all my burst dmg came from spells but being orc and using 2 axes (axe of legion and honored rep thrallmar offhand) I managed to spec for and gain crit to help with the frost talent that buffs frost spell crits when doing white dmg crits. DW helped increase the chance of that happening. There were times in zangamarsh were I would get crits on both swings and even icy touch crits for 1100 followed by a 1600 frost strike. I managed to kill things pretty rapidly and It got me thinking.

The only hard thing was I couldnt tell how much dmg Obliterate was doing and only knew how much frost shock did if I got a crit otherwise it was around the same numbers as my white dmg. (combat text)


imo DK duel weilding is kinda confusing and hard to judge right now. Its like deciding if DW as a shaman was good or spec for 2handers at lvl 60 when patch 2.0.1 came out. It looks very ideal for tanking in that you can have more parry, dodge and hit rating from shammy/hunter/rogue weapons if you DW and allows for more dmging attacks where as 2hand dps is 80&#37; spell casts and 20% white dmg. DW is more 50/50 so you can do white crits and spell crits and keep doing constant dps like a rogue.

It all comes down to what works for you but if I ever get my DK to 80 before new years I wanna try DW tanking and see if my philosiphy is right or not.

[Aest]

On the other side, these calculations do take into assumption that one has obtained the proper Scourge Strike sigil, which is only obtainable from one boss in 25 man Naxx. Considering this is hardly a fair assumption to make for a level 78 Death Knight, I'd concede that the difference between BS x2 and SS is negligible, though still quite likely in favor of Scourge Strike due to the additional benefits the strike provides.

I can agree to that. What would probably be best to do, is stick with the two Blood Strikes at first, and then once you get 2 Piece Set Bonus/Sigil, to use a Scourge Strike instead.

[Kaliera]

I can agree to that. What would probably be best to do, is stick with the two Blood Strikes at first, and then once you get 2 Piece Set Bonus/Sigil, to use a Scourge Strike instead.

Isn't it great that we both had to go through an absurd amount of text between the two of us to come to a conclusion that was essentially middle ground? Gotta love theory craft. =P

[Aest]

Isn't it great that we both had to go through an absurd amount of text between the two of us to come to a conclusion that was essentially middle ground? Gotta love theory craft. =P

But hey, nothing wrong with theory craft at all. Someone's gotta do the min-maxing work. =P

[Taknar]

But hey, nothing wrong with theory craft at all. Someone's gotta do the min-maxing work. =P

None of your theorycrafting took into account the physical vs. magic difference though, save for the fact that the third deasease gives it a buff.

The difference between the two numbers you got was 600-ish, or approx. 20% of the BS combo. Taknar with his buff up, a clothie, has more than 20% armor reduction. Most mobs will have that much or more. Keeping in mind the glyph (which is available at 78) and the extra crit modifier, Scourge Strike is the clear winner.

Also, I'm looking for a Frost DPS spec Kaliera =D (Thanks so much)

[Alibar]

None of your theorycrafting took into account the physical vs. magic difference though, save for the fact that the third deasease gives it a buff.

The difference between the two numbers you got was 600-ish, or approx. 20% of the BS combo. Taknar with his buff up, a clothie, has more than 20% armor reduction. Most mobs will have that much or more. Keeping in mind the glyph (which is available at 78) and the extra crit modifier, Scourge Strike is the clear winner.



Already been discussed, and factored in above.

Plus the extra crit chance that Scourge Strike gets from the set bonuses, and Plus the Sigil, SS wins out on average.

However, upon entry to the high end/raiding, when you do not have either of those, Blood Strike wins out. The Blood Strikes have a higher non-crit, while the SSes have a higher crit. However, minus the extra chance to crit that comes with the set bonus on SS, and minus the sigil, dual-Blood Strikes win out.

[Taknar]

Already been discussed, and factored in above

Oops, yep it was! This is what I get for posting late at night instead of going to bed. Sorry about that.

What I wouldn't mind knowing is how all these melee abilities scale with AP, if at all.

[Moknim]

imo DK duel weilding is kinda confusing and hard to judge right now. Its like deciding if DW as a shaman was good or spec for 2handers at lvl 60 when patch 2.0.1 came out. It looks very ideal for tanking in that you can have more parry, dodge and hit rating from shammy/hunter/rogue weapons if you DW and allows for more dmging attacks where as 2hand dps is 80% spell casts and 20% white dmg. DW is more 50/50 so you can do white crits and spell crits and keep doing constant dps like a rogue.

It all comes down to what works for you but if I ever get my DK to 80 before new years I wanna try DW tanking and see if my philosiphy is right or not.

Wow, I thought the idea of DW tanking had all but disappeared. You will have lower threat (because you have a 28% chance to miss v. 9% for your attacks - although diseases still have 9%) and you have a chance to parry-gib yourself and given the fact that DK damage is already spikey, one of those spikes + a couple of parry-hastened attacks could put some serious stress on your healers.

From what I have read, DW is possible for DPS (and some people insist it is possible for tanking - but I'm not going to heal your DW'ing butt) but I don't think its ideal. I really think that if Blizz had left out the One-hand specialization talent no one would be seriously talking about it. To me it seems like the whole square peg round hole situation.

[Yehvon]

Gotta love theory craft. =P




god, theory crafting. Its nothing more than statistics with a fancy name for everyone to observe and discuss about like its a scientific theory or something!!!



I do my own theory crafting. Its called trial and error while reading recounts bar/circle graphs!!!

[Taknar]

Wow, I thought the idea of DW tanking had all but disappeared. You will have lower threat (because you have a 28% chance to miss v. 9% for your attacks - although diseases still have 9%) and you have a chance to parry-gib yourself and given the fact that DK damage is already spikey, one of those spikes + a couple of parry-hastened attacks could put some serious stress on your healers.

From what I have read, DW is possible for DPS (and some people insist it is possible for tanking - but I'm not going to heal your DW'ing butt) but I don't think its ideal. I really think that if Blizz had left out the One-hand specialization talent no one would be seriously talking about it. To me it seems like the whole square peg round hole situation.

Heh, I never forgot about it and nether did Ghostcrawler.

It seems that parry gibbing isn't as large an issue as it was when we were in vanilla WoW, mostly thanks to expertise being a good tanking stat. You have a good point with the miss rate, but when Frost tanks in particular get most of their aggro from howling blast and death and decay, the need to hit the guy in the face with your weapons diminishes somewhat. The real fear with dual wielding is that the threat won't be reliable when you need it most; at the beginning of the fight. In the long run, comparing a warrior with a 1h 1.5 sword vs. a DK with 2 1.5 swords, the DK attacks twice as often and misses 28% more often, meaning you're still in a net gain of hits.

There is enough stigma about it that I wouldn't dare try it right away, but as I do heroics and tanking swords get slotted up for DE, I'm going to grab them. I'll see what I can do with them, and make a more informed judgement after that.

For kicks, here is the DW tanking build I would use: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2055001503000300000000000003250530130 532000301000100000035200000000000000000000000000&glyph=161915010305

[Kaliera]

The problem with Dual Wielding isn't so much a fear of parry gib, per say, but the fact that parry haste exists at all that creates an issue. In takes an absurd amount of gear to become both defense and expertise capped, and to do so you must also sacrifice avoidance stats that you could otherwise stack safely.

Keep in mind that when it comes to tanking, you need enough threat to keep yourself safely above the DPS, and then mitigation/avoidance to keep yourself on your feet. I cannot imagine any circumstances where having the tanking stats itemized on two one-handed weapons would make up for either the increased damage from parry haste or the decreased avoidance from expertise stacking to prevent parry haste. Until parry haste is removed all together, I won't be touching DW tanking with a ten foot pole.

Now, @Taknar..

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMVZGMxtIxdRhoVosx

This is likely what frost build I'll be running when the next patch goes live.

[Taknar]

The problem with Dual Wielding isn't so much a fear of parry gib, per say, but the fact that parry haste exists at all that creates an issue. In takes an absurd amount of gear to become both defense and expertise capped, and to do so you must also sacrifice avoidance stats that you could otherwise stack safely.

Keep in mind that when it comes to tanking, you need enough threat to keep yourself safely above the DPS, and then mitigation/avoidance to keep yourself on your feet. I cannot imagine any circumstances where having the tanking stats itemized on two one-handed weapons would make up for either the increased damage from parry haste or the decreased avoidance from expertise stacking to prevent parry haste. Until parry haste is removed all together, I won't be touching DW tanking with a ten foot pole.

Now, @Taknar..

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMVZGMxtIxdRhoVosx

This is likely what frost build I'll be running when the next patch goes live.

Yeah, I 100% agree that most if not all the theorycraft is against DW tanking, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to give it a shot. I like being different.

Regarding the build, that's exactly what I have now save for a few talent placements. The Blood tree is identical, and honestly isn't a shocker there. I have one less point in Runic power mastery than you do, since I feel that the difference between 120 and 130 is less than the difference between 110 and 120 (the difference being a Frost Strike). I also don't have Lichborne, as I'm still slightly underwhelmed by the talent. I had it in beta and found it useful there but when I didn't have it in live I didn't feel the difference. So I instead put those two points into Frost Aura which gives me on average about 10% spell resistance. It's not terribly reliable, but I'll often look at random AoE damage being done to be and see "620 (66 resisted)".

I also took Hungering Cold, which is getting even better by having the cost reduced to 40 RP. At that cost, it takes the place of a Frost Strike and allows me to spread frost fever quickly mid-fight without needing to use two runes. I then save those runes for extra FUs by just giving the finger to blood plague. Also handy for random adds (when they aren't immune to the CC) and as a counter gank measure.

Which glyphs are you using? *gently nudges Kaliera towards mmo-champion's talent calculator which allows you to link glyph set ups with the build*

[Kaliera]

Yeah, I 100% agree that most if not all the theorycraft is against DW tanking, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to give it a shot. I like being different.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it work. Female tauren dual wielding animations are awesome. However, I won't be different at the cost of being worse off. ;)



Regarding the build, that's exactly what I have now save for a few talent placements. The Blood tree is identical, and honestly isn't a shocker there. I have one less point in Runic power mastery than you do, since I feel that the difference between 120 and 130 is less than the difference between 110 and 120 (the difference being a Frost Strike). I also don't have Lichborne, as I'm still slightly underwhelmed by the talent. I had it in beta and found it useful there but when I didn't have it in live I didn't feel the difference. So I instead put those two points into Frost Aura which gives me on average about 10% spell resistance. It's not terribly reliable, but I'll often look at random AoE damage being done to be and see "620 (66 resisted)".

I also took Hungering Cold, which is getting even better by having the cost reduced to 40 RP. At that cost, it takes the place of a Frost Strike and allows me to spread frost fever quickly mid-fight without needing to use two runes. I then save those runes for extra FUs by just giving the finger to blood plague. Also handy for random adds (when they aren't immune to the CC) and as a counter gank measure.

For me, the extra point in RPM and Lichborne are filler talents, as I agree 100% that 120 RP is useful while 130 is just fluff. Lichborne does have it's uses in a few fights though, namely any fight that has a chance to fear (Gluth) or charm ( Kel'Thuzad). Granted, it's very few fights that make use of it, but I would never use Hungering Cold in a boss encounter, and I focus my specs around them.


Which glyphs are you using? *gently nudges Kaliera towards mmo-champion's talent calculator which allows you to link glyph set ups with the build*

First off, fuck mmo-champion's calculator. That thing bugs out on me more often than it works. :(

As for glyphs, the only one I'd say is 100% needed in a frost build is the Obliterate glyph. In the new patch, I'd likely go with Frost Strike as well. Perhaps then there will be a use for that odd 10 Runic Power after a few rotations.

[Mohan]

Ok, it's my turn to pick Kaliera's brain. My DK is level 68 and about to hit Northrend. With another level or two and some actual tanking gear, I should be ready to give it a shot.

I know you're focused on DPS over tanking, but any advice would be helpful. This (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2050301000000000000000000003250500132 232100301205131350005200000000000000000000000000&glyph=111506040501) is what I'm thinking about for a level 80 build.

[Kaliera]

Ok, it's my turn to pick Kaliera's brain. My DK is level 68 and about to hit Northrend. With another level or two and some actual tanking gear, I should be ready to give it a shot.

I know you're focused on DPS over tanking, but any advice would be helpful. This (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2050301000000000000000000003250500132 232100301205131350005200000000000000000000000000&glyph=111506040501) is what I'm thinking about for a level 80 build.

Quite the opposite, actually! Tanking is my PvE niche, I'm currently DPS simply to help all of our tanks get geared up as quickly and efficiently as possible. There are very few fights in Naxx that require a third tank, and an unholy DPS build tends to work well as a pseudo off-tank when geared properly.

Anyways!

There are a couple things about the build worth pointing out:

- First of all, any points spent in Killing Machine in a tank build tend to be wasted points. For threat reasons, you should be using Rune Strike pretty much any time it lights up, and the ability works very much like a heroic strike. Due to the nature of the ability, a vast majority of your auto-attack swings will instead be converted into yellow damage, which does not proc killing machine. This, coupled with a naturally lower crit chance when suited in tanking gear makes the investment more or less unworthy of the points.

- Scent for Blood is kind of a hit or miss talent for me. I personally run my raids with a Prot Paladin, and the runic power returns on Blessing of Sanctuary keep my bar filling up faster than I can dump the damn thing. If you don't have that luxury, then I'd say it's talents well spent. If you do, I'd suggest ditching it. Either way, I'm a pretty firm believer in the added threat and damage output that Two-Handed Specialization brings to the table over almost anything that buffs RP generation.

Those are really the only two things that stand out firmly in my mind. My tweaked version of your build would be something like this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jdxMoZGgxzGcd0hRVssx0g

The single point in Subversion would be filler no matter how you slice it, so it could be assigned almost anywhere in those first two blood tiers.

[Mohan]

Some really good points there. The points in Killing Machine were pretty much just filler. I didn't put 'em in Icy Reach because I figured that, as the tank, I should always be in normal range anyway.

What's your rotation usually like? For both single and multiple target?

[Swerto]

Okay I want some help building a frost/blood tree but I don't know where to start. I know I want to do a dual wielding spec and I intend to end game tank.

[Swerto]

Trying this one out (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfV0qIcIsbRzzhZhxetc00o)

[Moknim]

First, Dual Wield end game tank? I'm not healing you (as I have said here before). I don't know why people are insisting on trying to make this work. Now if you are defining end-game as level 80 instances/heroics, sure - it might. If you are talking about true end-game, I just don't see it as viable.

That being said, a lot of problems with your spec - blood strike is based on weapon damage, and will thus be hurt by the fact you don't have a big, heavy-hitting 2H'er. It would be much better to center around Howling Blast. Next - no anticipation or bladed barrier which is severely nerfing your avoidance. Furthermore, you don't have any of the "oh crap" buttons that DKs rely on for avoidance boosts. Basically - your spec takes little/none of the needed DK tank abilities while also increasing parry haste on bosses that hasten (end-game). That means that your healer will hate you and you will likely be dying a lot.

DW may be possible for DPS, however, and I would look at something like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVZG0exhxbRhoV0cZfM0hxc) for DW DPS (although I am sure Kali will have some corrections - I just threw this together real quick).

[Swerto]

This then? (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEMqIhIsbR0uho0xxzhZ0x)
I really wish it was set up for dual wielding tanking, I'd much rather DW tank than 2h tank. I don't see the appeal to a weapon that swings slower when it comes to tanking.

[Taknar]

This then? (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfEMqI0IsbR0uho0xxzhZ0x)

I really wish it was set up for dual wielding tanking, I'd much rather DW tank than 2h tank. I don't see the appeal to a weapon that swings slower when it comes to tanking.

It's less an appeal and more of a "I'm going to feel this in the morning" feeling. As has already been mentioned in the thread, your threat generation reliability is shot with the extra 28% miss rate. Granted, you are "hitting" more often, but that's in the long run and can't be ensured at the beginning of the fight when threat generation is most crucial.

People also seem to have an issue with parry-gibbing although I don't think many people have actually done a comparison of the two and seen a significant difference (let's say 5% increased recieved damage, for example)

If you don't like slow weapons for tanking, you *could* try tanking with a one-hander and no off-hand. That takes care of the parry gib and the miss chance, but you sacrifice a lot of damage out of your attacks due to the decreased weapon damage. People will also look at you funny.

Looking to your build then, it looks better but there are a few odd points with it. First, no vampiric touch. All DK tanks are assumed to have their 3 5 point tanking talents from tier 1, and the mitigation talent for their tree. Bone shield, unbreakable armour, and vampiric touch are those three. Considering that it will increase your max health by 20% when you use it come patch 3.0.8, it makes an already worthwhile ability even more worthwhile.

Second, Your points in the Frost tree. You are increasing your frost damage by 30%, but you only cast one frost spell in your rotation; icy touch. Putting three of those points into Improved Icy Touch nets you an identical effect, and reduces the attack speed of the other guys by 6% (mitigation xD)

Thirdly, Blood gorged is boss, as is Sudden doom. I'd play around with your points in the lower end of the tree and see if you can't pick them up. As the MT, you won't always be above 75% but you'll be up there a good portion of the time, and the 5 expertise is nothing to laugh at. Sudden doom is a fantastic way to get more threat out with Death Coil, but I can see you dropping it if you already pressed for GCDs. Play around with it a bit.

Hope that was helpful!

[Gorymoru]

So...what kind of minor glyphs are good at 71 for leveling?

[Taknar]

Ask your question in the glyph thread found here (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=14354) and I'd be happy to help you out with this if I can.

[Catilyn]

Thank you Taknar, I was just about to say that but you got to it before me ^^

Back on-topic... Personally, I prefer to Tank using a 2-Hander. I'm Blood speced and I intend to stay that way. Blizzard are buffing the Death Knights ability to tank, especially for Blood Spec's like myself but honestly, I've never had a problem with it, anyone who's instanced with me can confirm this.
Not only that, but I also do a ton of DPS while Tanking successfully, allow this screenshot to explain. We didn't wipe once.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd266/Broomkin/NerfBloodTanking.jpg

[Tsu]

don't dual wield tank.

There's no benefits to it at all unless you desperately need the defense from tanking 1Hers.

You generate much less threat, and unless you're expertise capped (which you won't be) also have a much higher chance to parry gib yourself, which is definitely a factor in 10 mans.

[Moknim]

This then? (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEMqIhIsbR0uho0xxzhZ0x)
I really wish it was set up for dual wielding tanking, I'd much rather DW tank than 2h tank. I don't see the appeal to a weapon that swings slower when it comes to tanking.

Thats just it - most of your threat doesn't come from white damage. Think about a warrior swinging a big 2H - his weapon swings very little, but he hits pretty often because of his specials. DK tanking is more like that - Weapon hitting very little (pure white damage terms) but specials hitting often.

[Swerto]

It's less an appeal and more of a "I'm going to feel this in the morning" feeling. As has already been mentioned in the thread, your threat generation reliability is shot with the extra 28&#37; miss rate. Granted, you are "hitting" more often, but that's in the long run and can't be ensured at the beginning of the fight when threat generation is most crucial.

People also seem to have an issue with parry-gibbing although I don't think many people have actually done a comparison of the two and seen a significant difference (let's say 5% increased recieved damage, for example)

If you don't like slow weapons for tanking, you *could* try tanking with a one-hander and no off-hand. That takes care of the parry gib and the miss chance, but you sacrifice a lot of damage out of your attacks due to the decreased weapon damage. People will also look at you funny.

Looking to your build then, it looks better but there are a few odd points with it. First, no vampiric touch. All DK tanks are assumed to have their 3 5 point tanking talents from tier 1, and the mitigation talent for their tree. Bone shield, unbreakable armour, and vampiric touch are those three. Considering that it will increase your max health by 20% when you use it come patch 3.0.8, it makes an already worthwhile ability even more worthwhile.

Second, Your points in the Frost tree. You are increasing your frost damage by 30%, but you only cast one frost spell in your rotation; icy touch. Putting three of those points into Improved Icy Touch nets you an identical effect, and reduces the attack speed of the other guys by 6% (mitigation xD)

Thirdly, Blood gorged is boss, as is Sudden doom. I'd play around with your points in the lower end of the tree and see if you can't pick them up. As the MT, you won't always be above 75% but you'll be up there a good portion of the time, and the 5 expertise is nothing to laugh at. Sudden doom is a fantastic way to get more threat out with Death Coil, but I can see you dropping it if you already pressed for GCDs. Play around with it a bit.

Hope that was helpful!


OKAY

HERE WE GO 52/14/5 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEMqIhIsbMzuhohg0zhZ0x)

One last try. Got rid of hysteria, while it's an awesome ability, it's more of someting a dps should bring along, not a tank.

[Mohan]

If you're going for DW tanking, why the points in Two-handed Weapon Specialization and none in Nerves of Cold Steel?

[Swerto]

Because I went back to 2h tanking because people bitched about dw tanking.

[Catilyn]

Id claim it's mostly personal preference really, if you want to do it, and it's plausible; do it. The opinions on these threads are just that: opinions, ones that should be used to guide you to find a spec and play style that suits you whether they may be identical or otherwise. WoW is about fun, after all.

[Yatokth]

Id claim it's mostly personal preference really, if you want to do it, and it's plausible; do it. The opinions on these threads are just that: opinions, ones that should be used to guide you to find a spec and play style that suits you whether they may be identical or otherwise. WoW is about fun, after all.

The absolutely amazing tank for our Naxx runs is a DW DK tank, he's Unholy though, but still, it's definitely viable.

[opalexian]

DUN DUN DUUUUUUN (http://deathknight.info/forum/index.php) for all your theorycrafting needs! I'm watching for stuff on DW, I've found it very useful when trying to keep up with Meaya's evil DPS. I'd post my spec but it's late and I wanna look at tweaking it and possibly trying out 2H anyway....dunno, my 2Hers are both green -_-;;

[Taknar]

The absolutely amazing tank for our Naxx runs is a DW DK tank, he's Unholy though, but still, it's definitely viable.

Thelsuo? *goes to investigate*

Wowarmory shows tanking gear and a two hander. I wanna see who you are referencing!

[Yatokth]

Thelsuo? *goes to investigate*

Wowarmory shows tanking gear and a two hander. I wanna see who you are referencing!

Yup, Thelsuo, he's using a 2H ATM, but when he tanks Naxx, he dual weilds Infantry Assault Blade and Red Sword of Courage.

[Taknar]

Yup, Thelsuo, he's using a 2H ATM, but when he tanks Naxx, he dual weilds Infantry Assault Blade and Red Sword of Courage.

I need WWS links, asap. Someone in those raids should be taking them.

I'll also point out that you guys have been doing 10 up until this point, and 25 man may be a different animal. I'm really happy that Thel has been using two weapons to tank with though.

[Naheal]

I would like to point out that it may become neccisary to begin to learn the difference between 2h tanking and dw tanking for a DK.

For one, 2h tanking doesn't seem to be about mitigation (unless you're blood. But, life drains are just your bread and butter). 2h tanking seems to be more centered around building threat on your target, usually a good amount on a single target. However, due to the complete lack of defensive 2h weapons available (I know, we're getting a rune, but we're still missing a good amount of defensive stats) I would see that a far better option would be to tank bosses using a 2h while tanking trash while DW. Let's face it, your single target threat generation isn't that important when you're tanking multiple mobs. Just tell your party to start AoEing the shit out of everything and you'll do fine with a pair of weapons.

[Taknar]

I will repeat that the only issue with DW tanking is the extra damage recieved from being parried because you are attacking more often. The percentage remains the same, true. However, this is one of the few places where a flat value increase in parried attacks is the true indicator. If you have fantastic healers who slightly overgear the content, then there is no harm no foul. However, even then you are putting yourself at a risk for little more than flavour preference. I can stand behind the flavour preference, but not many will.

Besides, with a decent parry and dodge rate DW actually becomes better at scaling threat because of the frequency of Rune Strike.

[Naheal]

I will repeat that the only issue with DW tanking is the extra damage recieved from being parried because you are attacking more often. The percentage remains the same, true. However, this is one of the few places where a flat value increase in parried attacks is the true indicator. If you have fantastic healers who slightly overgear the content, then there is no harm no foul. However, even then you are putting yourself at a risk for little more than flavour preference. I can stand behind the flavour preference, but not many will.

Besides, with a decent parry and dodge rate DW actually becomes better at scaling threat because of the frequency of Rune Strike.

Actually, Tak, Rune Strike can't be parried or dodged. The only increase in the amount of damage you'll be taking will be from parries off of your offhand weapon, which would be no more then, say, a druid, paladin, or warrior. The only reason why you'd see an increase in comparison is if you don't have enough avoidance to be Rune Striking as often as you need to be.

[Taknar]

Actually, Tak, Rune Strike can't be parried or dodged. The only increase in the amount of damage you'll be taking will be from parries off of your offhand weapon, which would be no more then, say, a druid, paladin, or warrior. The only reason why you'd see an increase in comparison is if you don't have enough avoidance to be Rune Striking as often as you need to be.

I'm well aware of the tooltip on Rune Strike, Naheal. The idea that each main-hand swing will be a Rune Strike is a tad far fetched though. Let's use Thelsuo's Infantry Assault Blade (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37179) as an example. 2.60 weapon speed, hasted with 20% haste minimum from buffs (more likely 45% since you would have Improved Icy Talons with a DW spec) gives us 2.08 weapon speed on the main-hand weapon. Now, looking at avoidance (again, let's use Thelsuo's stats) of 39%, 49% with the active buff, you need to be hit by a dodgable and parriable attack approx. once every 1.04 seconds in order to even qualify for it. This is also assuming perfect use of the Rune Strike macro and zero lag, which are both hefty assumptions.

Furthermore, with diminishing returns now appearing on avoidance stats, getting to the idea case where you could Rune Strike every hit is harder to achieve than ever before.

The real question isn't do you take more damage. I think the real question is "Does the additional damage I take make me unable to do my job?" My personal view on that is no, and it seems like Thelsuo is proving me right. I can't wait to see some WWS parses from a 25 man naxx.

Note: Thelsuo has moved to two 1.60 or less weapon speed swords as of this posting, but I did the math with the Assault Blade to favour Naheal's case.

[Kaliera]

The real question isn't do you take more damage. I think the real question is "Does the additional damage I take make me unable to do my job?"

This right here is what urks me most about dual wield tanking. A tank that's serious about tanking should never be asking a question pertaining to taking additional damage in order to tank with a different graphic. I could see a valid argument for dual wielding if the mitigation stats on two one-handers outweighed the enhanced damage intake, but the avoidance is too piddly to matter in the long run, especially with tanking two-handers going in next patch.

[Taknar]

This right here is what urks me most about dual wield tanking. A tank that's serious about tanking should never be asking a question pertaining to taking additional damage in order to tank with a different graphic. I could see a valid argument for dual wielding if the mitigation stats on two one-handers outweighed the enhanced damage intake, but the avoidance is too piddly to matter in the long run, especially with tanking two-handers going in next patch.

That's a fair stance to have, but I think that each raid leader needs to make that call for themselves. The enjoyment of one your players is also a component to a successful raid, is it not? Turn over is bad, especially for such a gear dependant role. I'm not so hardcore that I'll demand that additional 5% mitigation out of a tank and rob them of playing the way they want to, provided that they can still do the job. A DW tank that keeps dying and doesn't want to change however is simply not fit for raiding.

On the topic of two handers, the tanking two handers make me happy and sad at the same time. They make me happy in that people are getting the tools they want and need to get the job done sooner. They make me sad because they are setting presedent and basically saying that at each tier a DK is going to need a crafted weapon before being able to tank. That's the exact situation they are trying to get away from with druids, where they are crucially dependant on a single item and might as well not show up to the raid without it.

[Tsu]

best 2h right now already offer a decent amount of avoidance stats already, from having a truckload of str (parry), agi (dodge), and sta. Only thing you lack from 2h atm is defense, and if you can cap def without (hell i never bothered to pickup 1h even when not def capped) it's really a no brainer imo.

[Naheal]

best 2h right now already offer a decent amount of avoidance stats already, from having a truckload of str (parry), agi (dodge), and sta. Only thing you lack from 2h atm is defense, and if you can cap def without (hell i never bothered to pickup 1h even when not def capped) it's really a no brainer imo.

We're getting a rune to make up for a lack of defense.

I'm also a firm defender of the idea that, runed properly, a DPS 2h with a good amount of stam/str can be used as a tanking weapon for a DK (via forceful deflection).

[Moknim]

That's a fair stance to have, but I think that each raid leader needs to make that call for themselves. The enjoyment of one your players is also a component to a successful raid, is it not? Turn over is bad, especially for such a gear dependant role. I'm not so hardcore that I'll demand that additional 5&#37; mitigation out of a tank and rob them of playing the way they want to, provided that they can still do the job. A DW tank that keeps dying and doesn't want to change however is simply not fit for raiding.

So, you are okay with a tank taking more damage just so he can have the graphic of 2 swords instead of one? I'm not. Its like a warrior saying "Yeah, I know this weapon is an upgrade, but my other one looks cooler so I'm going to use it." To me, that is unacceptable.

I am not exactly sure of the difference between DW and non-DW specs, but I can't imagine the playstyle is any different (if different at all). Its not like a warrior where the 2H v. DW trees give you different abilities, so all it comes down to is "I want to dual wield to be different" or "I want to dual wield because it looks cool." Thats fine, but you can go do that somewhere else.

Of course, I am saying this from the position that you are trying to progress through raids. If that isn't your goal then its a moot point.

Or, as another example, its like me, as a druid, saying "Nah, I don't want to take tree form so I can see my awesome gear all the time." Not only is it stupid in a raid situation, thats what hanging out in Dalaran is for.

[Grayslin]

Moar specs!

I've pretty much narrowed my specs down to these two. I think I've worked it out so that one or the other is good for just about any role I can cover as a DK, which should work out well if Blizz ever gets around to implementing these dual specs.

Blood spec for single-target DPS and PvP: 58/3/10 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMqI0IsfRtzAohZfM0h) It's pretty much geared toward complete all-out offense, with a good bit of self healing for pvp and solo situations. Good for questing / solo - especially when trying to solo group quests.

Unholy spec for tanking and multi-target DPS: 7/8/56 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbxZhxZfgMIzbkxxqocout) Geared toward mitigation and AoE damage to aid with threat gen. Performs decently enough for questing / solo.

Opinions and suggestions on where I might go better are welcomed.

[Tsu]

Or, as another example, its like me, as a druid, saying "Nah, I don't want to take tree form so I can see my awesome gear all the time." Not only is it stupid in a raid situation, thats what hanging out in Dalaran is for.

i may or may not have done this for a few BT runs (well, used noggenfogger instead of tree form)

<_<

>_>

also to poster above - would not recommend blood without annihilation, standard 51/13/7 isnt a bad build for dps and pvp (tbh though i dont think blood can really pull off a decent spec for multiple things at once, unholy does that MUCH better).

As far as the aoe spec, what me and the other dk in my guild used for sarth3d add tanking was 15/5/51.

specs:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jciMVh0IsfoxzAoG0x0hZfM (standard 51/13/7 raid dps, you can shift filler points around in blood to pick up stuff like rune tap or blood aura if you want)

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0VZ0xZfgGc00kxcsMckut (pure aoe tank spec, we built this for the sole purpose of tanking a load of adds, so it lacks things like ghoul, but again, you can shift filler around)

[Taknar]

So, you are okay with a tank taking more damage just so he can have the graphic of 2 swords instead of one? I'm not. Its like a warrior saying "Yeah, I know this weapon is an upgrade, but my other one looks cooler so I'm going to use it." To me, that is unacceptable.

I would say that at any point if the fact that the tank is DW costs the raid a fight, then no. Otherwise, go nuts. I don't think that a person needs to milk every last bit of optimality out of a spec in order to do their job. They only need to do that if they suck at the class, which is honestly another topic altogether.

All I know is that a lot of the time I raid with friends. I don't experience content with strangers. If one of my friends wants to try tanking with two weapons, I'm not going to deny them that for an additional chance to get through content. That's not why I play the game and if you *are* willing to tell a friend that its your way or the highway I don't think you're much of a friend. You're just a raiding cog in that case, and I don't have much more to say on that topic.


[e] Oh, forgot to mention that the DW spec is a different play style than 2H as you focus on spell damage a lot more than the 2H spec does. It has a different feel to it that some people find fun.

[Swerto]

Deviation from topic, rawr!

Back on topic!

I've been playing with my blood spec (seen earlier) and so far I've seen the mitigation in the early northrend instances is sufficient (this is without top end gear by the way, so my dodge/parry kind of sucks). I'm waiting to reach end game before I play with it any more.

It's VERY good for solo leveling.

[FRicanInsayn]

Hey guys. I just finished leveling my mage to 80, and now I wanna level my DK. My DK is going to be my tank toon. I've been messing around with the Talent Calculator, and I want your opinions on the spec I made. It's primarily frost.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about speccing so bear with me.

FRicanInsayn's Tanking Spec (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=205502000000000000000000000325050 51300320123212001013500050020000000000000000000000 00)

[Naheal]

Hey guys. I just finished leveling my mage to 80, and now I wanna level my DK. My DK is going to be my tank toon. I've been messing around with the Talent Calculator, and I want your opinions on the spec I made. It's primarily frost.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about speccing so bear with me.

FRicanInsayn's Tanking Spec (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=205502000000000000000000000325050 51300320123212001013500050020000000000000000000000 00)

You may want to look into moving some of those points around in frost top pick up acclimation. It doesn't seem like much at first, but once that stacks up to three, you're taking almost nothing from that particular magic type.

And, yes. It does stack with Frost aura.

Personally, I prefer this. (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=205032100000000000000000000305050 51330320100212301313510050000000000000000000000000 00)

Edit: With that spec, you produce a rediculous amount of RP and are able to put out a decent amount of threat. The focus is on magic user tanking with the ability to both heal yourself and survive (at least for a short amount of time) in PvP.

[Agnarr]

Thoughts on this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0E0qcZG0ethx0ohoZfMh0tco) for a dual-wield build? The only thing I tinkered with a bit was the three points between Rime and Frigid Dreadplate. A bit more damage dealt vs a bit less damage taken.
Not worried about the tanking aspect, just dps.

[Swerto]

Hey guys. I just finished leveling my mage to 80, and now I wanna level my DK. My DK is going to be my tank toon. I've been messing around with the Talent Calculator, and I want your opinions on the spec I made. It's primarily frost.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about speccing so bear with me.

FRicanInsayn's Tanking Spec (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/deathknight/talents.html?tal=205502000000000000000000000325050 51300320123212001013500050020000000000000000000000 00)
I've found Blood to be MUCH better for tanking, either that or Unholy. There are plenty of things in blood that will make your group love you being around. Unholy is the best for tanking casters, however, (Anti Magic Zone FTW).

[Pyrisath]

Frost/Blood specc has been perfected. 18/53/0 (http://wotlkwiki.info/talent/deathknight.html?tal=23040210330000000000000000032 02505132502110321230101341000000000000000000000000 000000) Current glyphs: Frost Strike, Icebound Fort.

A nice 20% heal on a 30 sec cooldown, unbreakable armor/bladed armor work hand in hand when I go all-out. Icebound fortitude is reserved for PvP. I have actually survived getting jumped by a rogue 1 level above me because of popping IBF at the right time. Only two points in runic power mastery, because all of the RP spells I use are 60 or 40. No need for odd numbers. Butchery is really nice, because I am always starting out slowly, and it helps me generate runic power MUCH faster.

Freezing fog procs are VERY nice, as is deathchill in combo with howling blast, even against one target, because it crits for more than Frost Strike. I think I grabbed too much haste and that is messing with weapon damage.

Opening rotation(just starting a quest or PvP respawn): Icy touch, plague strike, (pest if more than one), Oblit., blood strikex1/2.

Once more RP has been generated, people stop wanting to fight me =(.
Icy touch, plague strike, pestilence, deathchill, howling blast. BAM! Instant 3000+ damage.

Hungering Cold+Bandage: Very nice mid battle respite. A good 1200+ hp recovery if a non-DoT class. Generally used to give Howling Blast more time and throw FF on em all.

Yeah. I leveled this specc, and it took 80 mains to kill me in Outlands, even Northrend.

[Swerto]

Frost spec without dual wield spec? That makes me sad.

[Naheal]

High rune power generating builds tend to work better with a 2h (in my experience) due to the high rate of Frost Strikes, your harder hitting rune strikes, and harder hitting oblits/death strikes.

[Kaliera]

Frost spec without dual wield spec? That makes me sad.

Frost isn't the DW spec.


Frost isn't the DW spec. Frost isn't the DW spec. Frost isn't the DW spec. Frost isn't the DW spec. Frost isn't the DW spec. Frost isn't the DW spec. Frost isn't the DW spec. Frost isn't the DW spec. Frost isn't the DW spec. Frost isn't the DW spec.

Going into the frost tree does NOT mean you have to dual wield to pull it off. In fact, the deeper you go into the frost tree, the less you should even be thinking about equipping one-handers. The low-end talents buff frost strike and obliterate through the roof, two talents that are reliant on weapon damage and therefor significantly better utilized by two-handed weapons.

There are a few different dual wield builds that work and work well.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jZG0ex0xbRhoZfMohxckxcsMco

The above is what I've found to be the most potent at the moment. It relies on Icy Touch and Howling Blast, two abilities fed by killing machine procs and scaled by attack power and attack power alone. Going deep into the unholy tree allows you to pick up a third disease for higher BCB procs, Bone Shield, and most importantly the ability to turn otherwise useless blood runes into death (frost) runes for more IT/HB spam.

There are other DW builds, but there is NO DW tree. Successful DW builds rely on the synergy of non-weapon damage reliant abilities spread across two or more trees.

[Naheal]

I'd like to point this part out, too.

If you plan on DWing, don't even bother looking deep into two of the three trees.

[Taknar]

I'd like to submit my build for discussion, since it seemed to confuse Boulderdash when he was looking at it and it made me second guess myself.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMVZG0xtGxdRhRVost

It's a 2H build, currently focusing on both dots being up, howling blast when available, and get in extra obliterates otherwise (using death runes or rime procs). I intend to switch to the IT -> OB -> OB -> BS -> (FS)* pattern once I get an epic weapon.

Other than the point in hungering cold (which I love and refuse to give up) and the frost aura (same as hungering cold), I'm not sure what may be off with the spec. My DPS in naxx the other night (about 1500) makes me think that Boulder was right though.

[Agnarr]

My DPS in naxx the other night (about 1500) makes me think that Boulder was right though.

You're in blues and greens complaining about poor dps in a raid? You're going to be one of those DKs I outdamage when tanking heroics, aren't ya!? :P

[Swerto]

I'd like to submit my build for discussion, since it seemed to confuse Boulderdash when he was looking at it and it made me second guess myself.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMVZG0xtGxdRhRVost

It's a 2H build, currently focusing on both dots being up, howling blast when available, and get in extra obliterates otherwise (using death runes or rime procs). I intend to switch to the IT -> OB -> OB -> BS -> (FS)* pattern once I get an epic weapon.

Other than the point in hungering cold (which I love and refuse to give up) and the frost aura (same as hungering cold), I'm not sure what may be off with the spec. My DPS in naxx the other night (about 1500) makes me think that Boulder was right though.
Wouldn't it be better if you did an IT -> PS -> OB -> PES -> BB?
Your damage would hit more targets that way. Yes stil use howling blast/rune strike as often as possible.

OB does more damage with more plagues, plague strike would make the damage better, unless the two 1 disease oblit's do more damage than PS and OB + BB (I need to do the numbers to check it)

I'd like to point this part out, too.

If you plan on DWing, don't even bother looking deep into two of the three trees.
From what I've noticed in Frost it has the most spell damage, though it's still nice to grab some things in Blood and Unholy (Bladed armor = more auto attack damage which is still nice... more damage is still damage)

[Kethryvaris]

I have positively no idea how I'm going to level my DK. For now she's 20-something points in blood; but will probably end up either being blood/frost or frost/unholy. I have no idea; like I said--But this thread gives me a starting point! :D

[Swerto]

Keth, you might want to level Unholy/Blood if you're looking for speed...


Blood/Frost if you're looking for a lack of downtime.

[Kethryvaris]

Keth, you might want to level Unholy/Blood if you're looking for speed...


Blood/Frost if you're looking for a lack of downtime.

Lack of downtime. Big on lack of downtime. I have a blood/frost spec picked out...But I lost the link to it. Ah well.

[Swerto]

Try out mine (a page or two back)

It's working pretty good for me, and you can use it for tanking if you want too... but otherwise you can switch a few things around to focus more on DPS (like take the points out of the armor in frost)

[Catilyn]

Honestly? Any Spec that has Rune Tap implemented in it is low on Downtime, just Death Strike your way to victory when you need it.

[Kazthul]

Personally, I tried out rune tap, played with it for all of a day, got rid of it, because I rarely used it and felt it was just a waste.

I never had downtime issues, I started out blood/frost and then switched over to frost/blood, switched back and forth a few times. When I needed some health, I just ran up on a solo mob and started doing deathstrikes. I never EVER felt like I had to stop and eat or bandage.

The frost survival talents really offset a need for runetap, and I felt it was just more fun to play. All in all, I'd recommend trying out the different spec's for a day, and settling in on whatever feels THE MOST FUN above all else.

[Moknim]

What everyone has said. You really won't have downtime at all for any of the specs. So far I liked Blood the best (it summons worms, need I say more?), but I may try a DW F/U build (working toward Kali's build, especially when HB gets its CD taken away) next since I haven't gone that direction yet.

[Pyrisath]

Imp. Rune tap+healing trinket from some quest...=Kick ass. I never stop to eat, I only use bandages when I end a fight really low or Hungering Cold. Otherwise, even when I get attacked, I can instantly pop 4000 HP with two clicks. But... That is all dependent on your trinkets, cause I can never seem to get using a AP+ trinket, except on elites or bosses.

(Check Iricillian's armory if you need reference to the trinket I am talking about. I think I logged with it equipped.)

[Grayslin]

Even without a trinket - there's vampiric blood...

[Catilyn]

So... I'd like to submit my newest creation - this 21/0/50 build (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVzqc00oZZfMGhkbkLeoRcoux) that I made with the purpose of focusing on PvP.
Yes, I know I could have taken 4 points (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51464) in Necrosis instead of 1 point (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51459) but Corpse Explosion (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51328) and On a Pale Horse (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51267) are just too awesome too pass up.
Besides, it (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51459) only procs off auto-attacks.

Feedback, whether good or back, is welcome.

[Naheal]

Gargoyle's really a big RP hog. Sure, he can put out some good damage, but you don't really want to use him until you've got a full bar.

Desecration's almost neccisary for PvP. It's an AoE snare that procs off of your typical plague strike. You may want to move those points around to get a full 5/5 in that.

[Kaliera]

Gargoyle's really a big RP hog. Sure, he can put out some good damage, but you don't really want to use him until you've got a full bar.

This is all true. Despite all this, in it's current state, Gargoyle is one of the best talent points in the Unholy tree in terms of overall damage increases, rivaling that of Scourge Strike for PvP.


Desecration's almost neccisary for PvP. It's an AoE snare that procs off of your typical plague strike. You may want to move those points around to get a full 5/5 in that.

This. AMZ is getting a pretty massive nerf in the next patch, making it significantly less useful. It's pretty great now, but not worth sacrificing Desecration in my opinion. Ask any melee class what it thinks of ground-based AoE snares. :)

[Naheal]

*Hand of Freedom* What ground snare?

[Swerto]

Dancing Rune Weapon > Gargoyle


For one it does EVERYTHING you do, save rune tap.

So you want to drop death/decay? Watch it drop twice.

Rune strike? watch it hit twice.

It's purely badass both for tanking AND dps.

Oh and it doesn't hog your rune power like a gargoyle (even though the gargoyle can stay out WAY longer, but I guarantee you won't be rune striking or death coiling)

[Catilyn]

I did not take Descecration for one simple reason. Plague Strike.
I have the Scourge Strike Glyph, which has a 20&#37; chance to cause all of my diseases (wether they were on there in the first place or not) and I didn't feel that sacrificing 5 Points was worth it for a talent that only activates off an ability I use once or twice a fight.
Remember, it only procs off the casting of Plague Strike, not the application of Blood Plague.


Dancing Rune Weapon > Gargoyle


For one it does EVERYTHING you do, save rune tap.

So you want to drop death/decay? Watch it drop twice.

Rune strike? watch it hit twice.

It's purely badass both for tanking AND dps.

Oh and it doesn't hog your rune power like a gargoyle (even though the gargoyle can stay out WAY longer, but I guarantee you won't be rune striking or death coiling)

..... Dancing Rune Weapon is in the BLOOD Tree.

[Swerto]

I did not take Descecration for one simple reason. Plague Strike.
I have the Scourge Strike Glyph, which has a 20% chance to cause all of my diseases (wether they were on there in the first place or not) and I didn't feel that sacrificing 5 Points was worth it for a talent that only activates off an ability I use once or twice a fight.
Remember, it only procs off the casting of Plague Strike, not the application of Blood Plague.



..... Dancing Rune Weapon is in the BLOOD Tree.
And if you're not in the blood tree you need to be.

[Catilyn]

..... *facepalm* Until you've actually tried the spec out for yourself, I can't give you any credibility.
Besides, since I'm not Blood, the pros and cons of Dancing Rune Weapon are irrelevant in regards to my linked spec.

Also, if you didn't realise, you *can't* use Gargoyle after DRW because DRW would have eaten all of your available Runic Power.
Dancing Rune Weapon (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49028) "Unleashes all available runic power"
Please do some research >.>


Oh and it doesn't hog your rune power like a gargoyle (even though the gargoyle can stay out WAY longer, but I guarantee you won't be rune striking or death coiling)
Like I said, it takes away all available Rune Power... yet your saying it's not a Runic Power Hog? Yeah right.

[Kaliera]

Where to start...


@Catilyn

Desecration is there to provide a reliable snare with no cost outside of your normal rotation, and is absolutely invaluable for countering pillar-humpers in arenas.

Also, arguing dropping Desecration in a PvE build because of the Scourge Strike Glyph is reasonable, but not for PvP. If you're able to simply Scourge Strike someone to death without ever having your diseases dispelled or being kited until the duration drops, your opponents are fucking awful, plain and simple. Speccing a certain way assuming awful opponents is not a very good way to go about things.


@Swerto

No.

First of all, arguing the benefits of DRW over Gargoyle in PvE situations to criticize a PvP build is just plain mind boggling to me, but your information is also just plain wrong. With a proper Unholy PvE build, keeping a gargoyle up while still firing off death coils is not only easy, but expected if you're interested in putting out the maximum amount of DPS that you can manage.

Throughout the entire duration of a Gargoyle's life span, you cannot spend your runic power in any more of an efficient manner than pouring it into the gargoyle's duration. It remains for a full minute when done right, compared to DRW's significantly lower duration. As of right now, Gargoyle >>>>>>> Dancing Rune Weapon. With the changes to both in the next patch, the gap might close. As of right now, the two aren't even in the same league.

As a side note, deep blood and deep frost are two of the lowest DPS specs that a DK can run while still calling them proper specs. Telling someone they should be blood as if it's the king DPS spec is pretty poor advice.

[Catilyn]

Although I do agree with you on that Kaliera, my Arena opponents don't seem to be too tough, so far I've had no trouble kiting people just with CoI (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=45524) / DG (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49576).
In other words, I wasn't assuming, I tested it in actual rated Arena Matches. =D

Perhaps I'm lucky or maybe it's just that it's the start of the arena season... regardless, my next question - lets say I was to change my 21/0/50 spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVzqc00oZZfMGhkbkxcqMcoux) (which I might very well do after the A-MZ (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51052) nerf) then which points would people recommend I take out for Desecration (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55670)?

EDIT: I was thinking something like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVzqc00oZZfMGhkbkxcqMcoux).

[Advurb]

Perhaps I'm lucky or maybe it's just that it's the start of the arena season... regardless, my next question - lets say I was to change my 21/0/50 spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVzqc00oZZfMGhkbkLeoRcoux) (which I might very well do after the A-MZ (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51052) nerf) then which points would people recommend I take out for Desecration?

EDIT: I was thinking something like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVzqc00oZZfMGhkbkxcqMcoux).

Yech. No offense, but there are a lot of problems there. I would just use this build, it's tried and true.

link (http://www.arenajunkies.com/talents/death%20knight/21_0_50/)

[Taknar]

How useful do you find the blood utility talents you've taken (Rune Tap + improvements and Mark of blood)? Do they outweigh the benefit of 30&#37; snare reduction?

[Catilyn]

I made a WoWhead link to it here... 21/0/50 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfmMqc00oZZfMGhzfkMeqofou).

Interesting combination of talent choices to say the least! ^^


How useful do you find the blood utility talents you've taken (Rune Tap + improvements and Mark of blood)? Do they outweigh the benefit of 30&#37; snare reduction?
VERY useful, I kid you not.
Though I might around with it a bit more once I understand the Mark of Blood nerf better.
Basically, their going to make it unspellable, and it will now last for 1min (or 20 charges).

In other words, one dispell/Cloak of Shadows can get rid of this 2min cooldown.... which majorly sucks. It'll be listed as a Magic effect, by the way.
Note that this has not yet been implemented (planned in the upcoming patch) and is thus, why i still have Mark of Blood in my build.
May or may not keep it depending on how weak it's going to become.

[Kaliera]

Although I do agree with you on that Kaliera, my Arena opponents don't seem to be too tough, so far I've had no trouble kiting people just with CoI (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=45524) / DG (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49576).
In other words, I wasn't assuming, I tested it in actual rated Arena Matches. =D

Perhaps I'm lucky or maybe it's just that it's the start of the arena season...

First off, Desecration isn't a kiting tool for you, it's an anti-kiting tool for you and a kiting tool for your partners. You use it to ensure that a large portion of a pillar forces the opposing team to trudge through it. You use it to give your healer a patch to run through to give him breathing room. You're right in saying DG and CoI are both fantastic kiting and peeling tools, but just using them because they're potent is like telling a hunter to just use Conc Shot and Wing Clip instead of utilizing Frost Trap as well.


Also, no offense intended by this, but what rating are you at? A vast majority of teams between 1400-1700, often times even up to 1800 will be pretty damn clueless players. There's a good reason why the rating requirements for Deadly Gladiator pieces aren't in the lower tiers. If you're seeing poor players at low ratings, that's kind of expected, but still not a reason to ditch incredible tools.

[Moknim]

@Swerto

No.

First of all, arguing the benefits of DRW over Gargoyle in PvE situations to criticize a PvP build is just plain mind boggling to me, but your information is also just plain wrong. With a proper Unholy PvE build, keeping a gargoyle up while still firing off death coils is not only easy, but expected if you're interested in putting out the maximum amount of DPS that you can manage.

Throughout the entire duration of a Gargoyle's life span, you cannot spend your runic power in any more of an efficient manner than pouring it into the gargoyle's duration. It remains for a full minute when done right, compared to DRW's significantly lower duration. As of right now, Gargoyle >>>>>>> Dancing Rune Weapon. With the changes to both in the next patch, the gap might close. As of right now, the two aren't even in the same league.

All DKs should take DRW for when Kel'Thuzad Mind Controls someone. Cause that rune weapon does everything you do.

But not necessarily to your target...

[Kaliera]

All DKs should take DRW for when Kel'Thuzad Mind Controls someone. Cause that rune weapon does everything you do.

But not necessarily to your target...

Oh god, watching Able's DRW beating up MCed players was hilarious. I await the day when her weapon turns on her for added hilarity. :D

[Catilyn]

First off, Desecration isn't a kiting tool for you, it's an anti-kiting tool for you and a kiting tool for your partners. You use it to ensure that a large portion of a pillar forces the opposing team to trudge through it. You use it to give your healer a patch to run through to give him breathing room. You're right in saying DG and CoI are both fantastic kiting and peeling tools, but just using them because they're potent is like telling a hunter to just use Conc Shot and Wing Clip instead of utilizing Frost Trap as well.


Also, no offense intended by this, but what rating are you at? A vast majority of teams between 1400-1700, often times even up to 1800 will be pretty damn clueless players. There's a good reason why the rating requirements for Deadly Gladiator pieces aren't in the lower tiers. If you're seeing poor players at low ratings, that's kind of expected, but still not a reason to ditch incredible tools.

I know about all the benefits Desecration has, no need to spell it out for me - after all, I didn't say I wasn't thinking of taking Descecration, did I? :P

No offence taken.
I haven't done that many Arena matches yet, so my rating is still below 1500, which, I agree, is the time where most of my opponents are idiots - the problem we have is not a skill issue - my team mates don't have as good a gear as I and most of our opponents do, which is why we sometimes loose due to the sheer gear imbalance.

Team-mates are in the 78 Blue PvP gear, while our opponents seem to always have Savage Gladiator or better.

[Catilyn]

I know this is a double-post, but who the hell cares....


Yech. No offense, but there are a lot of problems there. I would just use this build, it's tried and true.

link (http://www.arenajunkies.com/talents/death&#37;20knight/21_0_50/)

Okay, so I looked into the build more and made some alterations based on the knowledge of what the next patch is doing to Anti-Magic Zone and Mark of Blood.

Note that this spec is on the assumption that the following end up being correct...
1: That Mark of Blood (due to the scheduled nerfs) becomes almost useless since it can just be dispelled right off the bat
2: That Anti-Magic Zone ends up being not all that worth it due to the scheduled nerfs.

19/0/52 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfcMqcZZfMGhzfkRcqMfoux)
Alternative if MoB is still usefull: 21/0/50 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfmMqc00oZZfMGhzfkRcqMcoux)

[Swerto]

..... *facepalm* Until you've actually tried the spec out for yourself, I can't give you any credibility.
Besides, since I'm not Blood, the pros and cons of Dancing Rune Weapon are irrelevant in regards to my linked spec.

Also, if you didn't realise, you *can't* use Gargoyle after DRW because DRW would have eaten all of your available Runic Power.
Dancing Rune Weapon (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49028) "Unleashes all available runic power"
Please do some research >.>


Like I said, it takes away all available Rune Power... yet your saying it's not a Runic Power Hog? Yeah right.
I argued taking DRW in BLOOD rather than speccing Unholy for Gargoyle, you can't get both. Gargoyle is over 20 points into Unholy (which means you can't possibly get the 51 point at the end of Blood)

DRW eats ALL Of your runic power initially, but afterwards all runic power generated stays generated. If you use an ability that costs runic power while DRW is up it happens twice for the cost of using it once.

Double Death coil? Cool

Double Death/Decay? Sweet

Double IT+PS+HS+HS+OB? Badass

Your damge output is amazing while DRW is up.

Gargoyle hits hard and lasts a minute IF you keep generating a lot of RP, it eats a LOT of it. Huge RP hog.

Your base damage is also higher as blood if you grabbed the talents on the way down, which will give you a larger ammount of sustained damage over time, drop DRW and that doubles for a 10 second period.

[Catilyn]

Your base damage is also higher as blood if you grabbed the talents on the way down, which will give you a larger ammount of sustained damage over time.
Your base damage is upped by ANY high-end talents, that's why their high-end, they help you do what you gotta do.


and to answer the following...

DRW eats ALL Of your runic power initially, but afterwards all runic power generated stays generated. If you use an ability that costs runic power while DRW is up it happens twice for the cost of using it once.

Double Death coil? Cool

Double Death/Decay? Sweet

Double IT+PS+HS+HS+OB? Badass

Your damge output is amazing while DRW is up.

Gargoyle hits hard and lasts a minute IF you keep generating a lot of RP, it eats a LOT of it. Huge RP hog.

Hit DRW and that doubles the damage for a 10 second period.

I redirect you to this....


Where to start...

@Swerto

No.

First of all, arguing the benefits of DRW over Gargoyle in PvE situations to criticize a PvP build is just plain mind boggling to me, but your information is also just plain wrong. With a proper Unholy PvE build, keeping a gargoyle up while still firing off death coils is not only easy, but expected if you're interested in putting out the maximum amount of DPS that you can manage.

Throughout the entire duration of a Gargoyle's life span, you cannot spend your runic power in any more of an efficient manner than pouring it into the gargoyle's duration. It remains for a full minute when done right, compared to DRW's significantly lower duration. As of right now, Gargoyle >>>>>>> Dancing Rune Weapon. With the changes to both in the next patch, the gap might close. As of right now, the two aren't even in the same league.

As a side note, deep blood and deep frost are two of the lowest DPS specs that a DK can run while still calling them proper specs. Telling someone they should be blood as if it's the king DPS spec is pretty poor advice.

Besides, DRW lasts for a total of 10secs, yes, it is nice DPS, but that's assuming you have the Runes and Runic Power available and are also in range of the person you want to hurt!
Do you have any idea how easy it is to simply negate all the potential damage while DRW is up with a simple CC?!
Most CC abilities last close to, or over 10secs, meaning your DRW would go to waste and you'd be left with no Runic Power once you evntually got out of it.
Once CC'ed, the only way a death Knight can escape it themselves is with a Trinket.

[Kethryvaris]

I wanna see y'alls Blood/Frost specs; ideas, etc, or mostly Frost spec. Readysetgo.

Tell me why you love it. [Everything I've read so far isn't blood/frost it's unholy, etc etc. unless I am missing something; which I probably am.]

<3

[Gorvena]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xZG0xthxdRhRVostf0Gcz

That's where I am "aiming" (still 67; took time to level Beli to 80).

I still like the slowing effects of frost. Must be mage bleedover. And 'Gasa has an unholy, which I regularly outdo on damage.

[Kethryvaris]

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=j0xZG0xthxdRhRVostf0Gcz

That's where I am "aiming" (still 67; took time to level Beli to 80).

I still like the slowing effects of frost. Must be mage bleedover. And 'Gasa has an unholy, which I regularly outdo on damage.

*bookmarks for future reference*

I should be back in-game in about 2 weeks. I'll PM you. :)

[Kaliera]

I know about all the benefits Desecration has, no need to spell it out for me - after all, I didn't say I wasn't thinking of taking Descecration, did I? :P


To be fair, I was using your words. You phrased it as a kiting tool. =P Also, it's pretty hard to argue the benefits of a talent without going into detail about it's benefits. "Desecration is good, you should take it" doesn't have nearly as much persuasive power behind it as "desecration is good, here's the reasons why you should take it."

And also, I wouldn't be so quick to judge losses on gear gaps. With fights that last merely seconds, it's far less realistic to say "they just had better gear." You seem to have a basic understanding of how your abilities work and when to use them, but that doesn't mean your partner does. Perhaps s/he could use a few pointers to work with, or perhaps the setup you're running isn't as optimal as others? I'm not suggesting you ditch your partner if you're having fun, but the first suggestion is worth throwing out there if you're struggling at baseline.

[Catilyn]

Oh, I know; you just came across as a bit aggressive is all, I took it the wrong way :/
As for Arenas, I'm not struggling, per se; we haven't quite worked out all the ins and outs of our Team, which is probably the primary contributor (I'm running with a Survival Hunter so coordination is a must) but nonetheless it is indeed, fun whether we lose or win.
Having said that, I was wrong to place my assumption of our losses on my team partners (I wasn't in a very good mood at the time of writing, so my line of thinking was sketchy) so I take that back.

[Swerto]

I wanna see y'alls Blood/Frost specs; ideas, etc, or mostly Frost spec. Readysetgo.

Tell me why you love it. [Everything I've read so far isn't blood/frost it's unholy, etc etc. unless I am missing something; which I probably am.]

<3

Okay

52/14/5 Blood/Frost tanking (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEMqIhIsbMzuhohg0zhZ0x) (currently being tested by me while leveling, works good so far)

53/13/5 Blood/Frost DPS (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVGqIcIcbM0zAoGx00hZf) (untested)


Rotations:

Tanking single mob:

IT - PS - HS - HS - OB (throw in runestrikes when possible)


Tanking multiple mobs:

IT - PS - PES - BB - DS (after a few rotations you should have death runes so you can use BB multiple times)

Solo PvE

IT - PS - HS - HS - OB/DS (depending on your health)

DPS (single Target)

Same as tanking single target

DPS (multi target)

Same as Tanking multi target, just switch DS with obliterate


Neither Blood or frost currently offer the best PvP builds, while they both do good damage Unholy gives you much more control of your opponent which in turn makes you more powerful.

Rune Tap is very effective for Solo PvE and tanking, and is a nice "Oh shit" button while in an instance and you take a little too much damage (and your healer is busy keeping the tank alive) Though if you think you can go without it in the DPS build it might do you better to move the talents elsewhere.

Some people will argue against blood aura for solo anything, but it will make most parties happy to have you with them. 2&#37; of damage healed doesn't sound like much but when your raid is handing out 200k DPS that's 4k HPS

Dancing Rune Weapon is arguable better than Gargoyle, though if you go the blood/frost route you don't have the choice to grab Gargoyle. Gargoyle is definitely more useful in a PvP situation but in PvE where you want to hand out a large ammount of damage/threat in a short ammount of time there is no alternative.

Heart Strike will replace Blood Strike on your bar, there is no reason to keep the former once you get HS.

When tanking burst is reserved for start. Another choice for most death knights is to drop Death/Decay, this is OFTEN a very bad decision due to the instant loss of 3 glyphs, this is better reserved for moments with more than one target. Otherwise just keep the normal rotation down.

Death Grip is mostly used as a taunt while tanking, as DPS you should NEVER use it. It causes enemies to attack you much like a taunt. So as a Death Knight you have TWO taunts, keep track of both of them and keep them handy.


I'm not an expert on Frost Builds since I only played around with mine for about a day before dropping it in favor of blood, Unholy builds are pretty cookie cutter and you can figure them out easilly, but if you need help theres over 20 in this thread alone.

[Taknar]

Two things:

1) The only time you want burst damage when you are tanking is at the beginning of the fight, and that's only if you have DPS that don't know what sunders are. (Sunders being the example from warriors, but we all know there are DPS who open up full throttle without thinking about threat)

2) Keep in mind that with Heart Strike moving to a cleave, there will be times when you want to leave the guy next to you well enough alone. Few, but they will exist.

[Naheal]

Yech. No offense, but there are a lot of problems there. I would just use this build, it's tried and true.

link (http://www.arenajunkies.com/talents/death%20knight/21_0_50/)


No impurity in that build makes me a little iffy on it.

[Yehvon]

as a prospering blacksmith, my DK has managed to aquire crafted and quest reward "blues" for tanking and I have to say (with his blood spec) I like it.

the main focus I went is firstly establish a spec that I liked since I view a DK like a feral druid where basically a few talent choices and gear swap determines your roll (unlike paladins/warriors who need an actual respec). So I focused secondly on my stats: parry and dodge. After that (and once I chose blood) I went into dmg and self healing.

my results were pretty interesting. The only draw back was a few nights ago when I tanked VH and i had to time my DaD's just right to get the summoned mobs aggro (it was my 2nd time tanking as a DK and 1st time in nearly 2yrs). Other than that I was able to help myself with the healers healing when I was taking large amounts of dmg and my parrying could spike all the way up tp 24&#37; with the talent in T1 blood.

Ive played around with it and now I am focusing on 51/20/0 for pvp since that is my DKs main purpose but as I lvl I am undergoing as many dungeon runs as I can because I do get bored questing (expecially now at 75-76 where I wanna do the Basin/nestingway quests and cant till 76 and Zul'drak is BORING!!!). But while I was tanking from 70-75 i was a funky spec of 26/14/26 9my melee warlock spec :P)buffing my 3 primary attacks, using a ghoul pet, and having increased parry/dogde ratings.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355001500033010000000000003200530100 000000000000000000205000305022105000100000000000&glyph=000000000000

with Def gear on I had 18% dodge, 16.5% parry (+10% from blade barrier) 481 def and around 15k hp @ lvl 74-75.

now its a bit of a shift from the "tri spec" but I did like it for the time being (i shifted between 2h and DW at 74 when I crafted the cobalt swords). You're not much of an AE tank but you can solo any elite quest that isnt 3 or more players (unless the elite is one lvl above you). Now I am more of a "ret pally" type as heart strike and my obliterate buffing has me doing 2200-3100 dmg a hit and self healing to maintain constant fighting.

[Swerto]

as a prospering blacksmith, my DK has managed to aquire crafted and quest reward "blues" for tanking and I have to say (with his blood spec) I like it.

the main focus I went is firstly establish a spec that I liked since I view a DK like a feral druid where basically a few talent choices and gear swap determines your roll (unlike paladins/warriors who need an actual respec). So I focused secondly on my stats: parry and dodge. After that (and once I chose blood) I went into dmg and self healing.

my results were pretty interesting. The only draw back was a few nights ago when I tanked VH and i had to time my DaD's just right to get the summoned mobs aggro (it was my 2nd time tanking as a DK and 1st time in nearly 2yrs). Other than that I was able to help myself with the healers healing when I was taking large amounts of dmg and my parrying could spike all the way up tp 24&#37; with the talent in T1 blood.

Ive played around with it and now I am focusing on 51/20/0 for pvp since that is my DKs main purpose but as I lvl I am undergoing as many dungeon runs as I can because I do get bored questing (expecially now at 75-76 where I wanna do the Basin/nestingway quests and cant till 76 and Zul'drak is BORING!!!). But while I was tanking from 70-75 i was a funky spec of 26/14/26 9my melee warlock spec :P)buffing my 3 primary attacks, using a ghoul pet, and having increased parry/dogde ratings.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355001500033010000000000003200530100 000000000000000000205000305022105000100000000000&glyph=000000000000

with Def gear on I had 18% dodge, 16.5% parry (+10% from blade barrier) 481 def and around 15k hp @ lvl 74-75.

now its a bit of a shift from the "tri spec" but I did like it for the time being (i shifted between 2h and DW at 74 when I crafted the cobalt swords). You're not much of an AE tank but you can solo any elite quest that isnt 3 or more players (unless the elite is one lvl above you). Now I am more of a "ret pally" type as heart strike and my obliterate buffing has me doing 2200-3100 dmg a hit and self healing to maintain constant fighting.
Interesting spec but without any end point talents you're really missing out on a whole lot.

I'm at the same dodge/parry (actually higher parry, slightly lower) at 73 with just the cobalt set mixed with the blue reward gear you get out of Nexus/UK.

My spec is the one linked earlier (that being the goal, not the current spec).

That's also missing 4% of the dodge (only one point in unholy right now, 4 more by 80, 2 more in frost, and one more in blood)

[Tsu]

Okay

52/14/5 Blood/Frost tanking (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbEMqIhIsbMzuhohg0zhZ0x) (currently being tested by me while leveling, works good so far)

53/13/5 Blood/Frost DPS (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVGqIcIcbM0zAoGx00hZf) (untested)


Rotations:

Tanking single mob:

IT - PS - HS - HS - OB (throw in runestrikes when possible)


Tanking multiple mobs:

IT - PS - PES - BB - DS (after a few rotations you should have death runes so you can use BB multiple times)

Solo PvE

IT - PS - HS - HS - OB/DS (depending on your health)

DPS (single Target)

Same as tanking single target

DPS (multi target)

Same as Tanking multi target, just switch DS with obliterate


Neither Blood or frost currently offer the best PvP builds, while they both do good damage Unholy gives you much more control of your opponent which in turn makes you more powerful.

Rune Tap is very effective for Solo PvE and tanking, and is a nice "Oh shit" button while in an instance and you take a little too much damage (and your healer is busy keeping the tank alive) Though if you think you can go without it in the DPS build it might do you better to move the talents elsewhere.

Some people will argue against blood aura for solo anything, but it will make most parties happy to have you with them. 2% of damage healed doesn't sound like much but when your raid is handing out 200k DPS that's 4k HPS

Dancing Rune Weapon is arguable better than Gargoyle, though if you go the blood/frost route you don't have the choice to grab Gargoyle. Gargoyle is definitely more useful in a PvP situation but in PvE where you want to hand out a large ammount of damage/threat in a short ammount of time there is no alternative.

Heart Strike will replace Blood Strike on your bar, there is no reason to keep the former once you get HS.

When tanking burst is reserved for start. Another choice for most death knights is to drop Death/Decay, this is OFTEN a very bad decision due to the instant loss of 3 glyphs, this is better reserved for moments with more than one target. Otherwise just keep the normal rotation down.

Death Grip is mostly used as a taunt while tanking, as DPS you should NEVER use it. It causes enemies to attack you much like a taunt. So as a Death Knight you have TWO taunts, keep track of both of them and keep them handy.


I'm not an expert on Frost Builds since I only played around with mine for about a day before dropping it in favor of blood, Unholy builds are pretty cookie cutter and you can figure them out easilly, but if you need help theres over 20 in this thread alone.


I sort of see where you're going with this, i ran a similar build

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jcihqczGsfRzoAo0hZcbMIkk

notice the synergy between bladed armor and toughness for maximum ap gain... It's also important to note the points in blade barrier which allow you more rune strikes (hits really hard).

I chose not to get Heart Strike because Blood Strike just ends up being better in the long run with Glyph of Blood Strike, and it lets me save a talent point for something else useful like Will of the Necropolis. Heart Strike's secondary effect (being changed in the patch) of preventing haste effects takes up a lot of the budget for the skill and as such it's actually pretty overrated compared to Blood Strike (again the glyph makes it pull ahead here, which is what's key).

I might have a screenshot of my dps in a raid somewhere, I'll try to find it later.


thoughts?