Should Plate armor mitigate magic? (Lorewise and Gameplaywise)

[Leyujin]

I saw this come up in a PvP discussion thread, so I wanted to ask it here. If the lore is Warcraft 3, then plate should actually take *increased* damage from magic, assuming it's heavy. It should take decreased damage if it is medium. Since Footmen had medium armor, and that's clearly plate... and Knights had heavy armor, which is clearly plate... well, I don't know what to think there. That seems to be purely gameplay mechanics though.

I don't know if it's mentioned in any RP books or the like. I have to say, logically, that plate is going to protect you from a blast of ice or fire more than cloth, because it's a projectile. Lightning might get conducted, I'm not sure if that will somehow cause more damage than just getting zapped straight on. Curses such as corruption and the like might be "boiling someone's blood" or the like, in which case, armor will be of no help. Personally, like many plate wearers, I'm a bit miffed that my tons of armor don't really do much against the majority of classes. This might be a necessity, as it's obvious that rogues, hunters, warriors and paladins can and do destroy pure-magic wielding classes. However, if we were actually living in the Warcraft world, would armor be protection against magic? Protection against some magic?

[Yatokth]

The whole high-armor-takes-more-from-magic was for game balance.

Technically, yes, plate armor would shield you from an impact more than cloth.

But not by a whole lot.

I mean, it'd be cool if Plate had like a 1/3 modifier to mitigate magic, but it might also be overpowered.

[Resinous]

If they ever made it to where your armor mitigated my magic, then I would ask for the ability to aim my magic for headshots.

[Malethia]

Except that wearing hundreds of pounds of metal means you have that much more material to freeze you inside, or heat you within your own walking broiler, or to hamper you as you're hit with shadow energy or arcane power. So I'd say no, unless it's specifically enchanted to block magical energy (IE resistance gear).

Read any fantasy novel, and you'll see mundane warriors shaking in fear of having to face a wizard. That's why - the wizard, frail as they can be, can kill you no matter how tough and strong you are, because of the energies at his fingers.

[Yatokth]

Read any fantasy novel, and you'll see mundane warriors shaking in fear of having to face a wizard. That's why - the wizard, frail as they can be, can kill you no matter how tough and strong you are, because of the energies at his fingers.

Until I charge across the battlefield at a speed that no wizard could ever run and bury my blade in their face.

[Malethia]

Until I charge across the battlefield at a speed that no wizard could ever run and bury my blade in their face.

Except wizards (ignoring WoW mechanics here) have spells to change the ground under you to mud, or a wall of fire to erupt in your path, or to simply disappear, and emerge on a overlook to blast you from above.

Magic. The great equalizer (just ask the trolls).

[Yatokth]

Except wizards (ignoring WoW mechanics here) have spells to change the ground under you to mud, or a wall of fire to erupt in your path, or to simply disappear, and emerge on a overlook to blast you from above.

Magic. The great equalizer (just ask the trolls).

I meant in WoW. :P

I'm well aware that non-magic users suck in some (fucking lame) fantasy worlds, but WoW ain't like that. :D

[Leyujin]

Well, we really still don't know how magic in WoW works. Are frostbolts actually magically guided to the target? When a spell "misses", what does that actually mean?

I personally think a rogue could dodge most magic missile type spells if they only have limited guidance. Warriors are a bit bizarre; I don't know much about medieval warfare, but I do know knights rode horses because they wouldn't be able to carry that much armor on their own two feet for very long. On the other hand, an Orc or Tauren is obviously far stronger than a human is, so I *could* see them carrying huge plate armor and moving at a fair lick.


Except that wearing hundreds of pounds of metal means you have that much more material to freeze you inside, or heat you within your own walking broiler, or to hamper you as you're hit with shadow energy or arcane power. So I'd say no, unless it's specifically enchanted to block magical energy (IE resistance gear).

Read any fantasy novel, and you'll see mundane warriors shaking in fear of having to face a wizard. That's why - the wizard, frail as they can be, can kill you no matter how tough and strong you are, because of the energies at his fingers.

I'd take issue with the first statement. It's obvious that in a frostbolt there's only a finite amount of "freezing" energy, same with a fireball. A spell only creates a certain amount of a type of energy. If you're in a tank in Russia, you're more protected from your environment than the poor sap outside in some furs. If you've got plate armor that's hit, physics dictates that the armor will take the frost before your skin does, it's why we wear MORE clothing rather than less in cold weather. The same with fire. If you get a ball of fire on your bare skin, you will be IMMOLATED and turn to dust. If it hits metal first, your skin might blister, and if enough fire is applied, you will be roasted alive, but that is better than being directly charbroiled on the spit. As a certain amount of energy is being created, the more material between yourself and it, the more energy gets expended which is unable to harm you. So, for at least some spells, armor = mitigation, in my opinion.

These comments would only really apply in a much more realistic, "real-world" WoW, though. In the actual world of WoW, maybe you can dodge some spells but not others, maybe some spells bypass armor but some don't, etc. There's no way to code that into a game, at least with our current balance system without making things needlessly complicated. What I *am* asking, is, if WoW was "real", would armor make a difference to magic? Obviously I think it should, at least partially. But I don't know how complex the magic in WoW is. Is it just throwing projectile balls of fire, or is that fireball intelligent and able to flow around armor? I doubt the latter, just from what we see, but who knows.

[Resinous]

Lets not get too realistic now. I mean I have killed hunters and survived with 15+ gunshot wounds, a giant axe wound, poisoned and had several animal bites. So magic passes through armor and hits its target, so what its magic. Of coarse, why and how can you reflect my magic then...

[Leyujin]

Well, you're a zombie. They obviously missed the head or heart.

[Resinous]

Well, you're a zombie. They obviously missed the head or heart.

I have a heart!?

[Jeedup]

Gamewise? Yes, I think they should impliment something small, not something drastic, that accounts for a percentage of armor to give you a small percentage of magic resistance in the schools.

Lore wise (WoW Specific)? Most armor thats crafted, other than what normal soldiers use, seem to be enchanted to some degree, use some sort of rare talisman in its crafting, ore was gotten from some rare vein, the water used to quench it was spit in my some legendary dwarf who ate a legendary amount of beans and chilie the previous night. So it would make sense if some of it would help shield them from magical damage. Not completely, but like in the mechanics, enough to help them get a surviving chance.

If a wizard can just stand there and blast holes into warriors armored head to toe, then one would think that would be the perfered way of combat, no?

[Resinous]

Gamewise? Yes, I think they should impliment something small, not something drastic, that accounts for a percentage of armor to give you a small percentage of magic resistance in the schools.

Lore wise (WoW Specific)? Most armor thats crafted, other than what normal soldiers use, seem to be enchanted to some degree, use some sort of rare talisman in its crafting, ore was gotten from some rare vein, the water used to quench it was spit in my some legendary dwarf who ate a legendary amount of beans and chilie the previous night. So it would make sense if some of it would help shield them from magical damage. Not completely, but like in the mechanics, enough to help them get a surviving chance.

If a wizard can just stand there and blast holes into warriors armored head to toe, then one would think that would be the perfered way of combat, no?

I wouldn't mind if they did that I suppose. I know that I own warriors, but I also know that if I just stand there in place and shoot while being whacked I would lose very fast being that I can't take a warriors damage for long. So it's really not the damage that produces the warriors loss, its the snares, roots and movements of the mage.

[Yatokth]

I wouldn't mind if they did that I suppose. I know that I own warriors, but I also know that if I just stand there in place and shoot while being whacked I would lose very fast being that I can't take a warriors damage for long. So it's really not the damage that produces the warriors loss, its the snares, roots and movements of the mage.

Exactly. A mage does no damage to me that I can't do back at him (perhaps more effectively) at close range - which is why they stay the fuck away.

If you want to make Warrior/Mage fights more balanced, then simply give the warrior a small way to get out of roots. (i.e. heroic fury in fury tree, if it was in arms or available to us it wouldn't be such a one-sided fight. It gets better as gear scales anyway though.)

[Emmons]

Gamewise? Yes, for balance.

Lorewise? This is absolutely impossible to figure out unless someone has a PhD in Imaginary Physics and a bachelor's in the Arcane with a minor in Daemonic.

[Resinous]

Exactly. A mage does no damage to me that I can't do back at him (perhaps more effectively) at close range - which is why they stay the fuck away.

If you want to make Warrior/Mage fights more balanced, then simply give the warrior a small way to get out of roots. (i.e. heroic fury in fury tree, if it was in arms or available to us it wouldn't be such a one-sided fight. It gets better as gear scales anyway though.)

Yeah its like a slugger vs a boxer kinda. We gotta stay on the outside while they try bullrushing inside. Now when I fight a hunter the role reverses.

[Yatokth]

Yeah its like a slugger vs a boxer kinda. We gotta stay on the outside while they try bullrushing inside. Now when I fight a hunter the role reverses.

Yeah.

Of course for me, fighting a hunter is like a boxer vs a school girl. :P

[Resinous]

Yeah.

Of course for me, fighting a hunter is like a boxer vs a school girl. :P

Yeah lol, the good mages do pretty well against them too, as long as we stay in their face. Not nearly as good as warriors do though. I've never really had complaints about the class strengths in wow. At first when they gave hunters the dispelling arcane shot and took out the dead zone I was a little displeased, but I learned the new method of fighting them. Rogues have gotten a lot tougher for mages in the past year and warlocks are always hard. Overall though I think they do a pretty decent job of making good fights for all classes. It usually boils down to the skill of the user. I'm pretty good at dueling but I still suck at arena lol.

[Yatokth]

Yeah lol, the good mages do pretty well against them too, as long as we stay in their face. Not nearly as good as warriors do though. I've never really had complaints about the class strengths in wow. At first when they gave hunters the dispelling arcane shot and took out the dead zone I was a little displeased, but I learned the new method of fighting them. Rogues have gotten a lot tougher for mages in the past year and warlocks are always hard. Overall though I think they do a pretty decent job of making good fights for all classes. It usually boils down to the skill of the user. I'm pretty good at dueling but I still suck at arena lol.

Hehehe. XD

Yeah, I really like 1v1ing nearly every class in WoW, ESPECIALLY after 3.0, it's just a blast, alot of the fights are very skill based rather than just "oh shit i beat you" - which some, not all, but some were in TBC, and Arenas are a bit wonky at the moment. Try again at 80. ;)

[Cabriel]

Hmm...wearing plate armor into Molten Core doesn't sound like a viable option either. You'd fuse directly onto it.

[Yatokth]

Hmm...wearing plate armor into Molten Core doesn't sound like a viable option either. You'd fuse directly onto it.

FIRE RESISTANCE BIAAAAAATCH

[Raziel]

FIRE RESISTANCE BIAAAAAATCH

Also keep in mind that you have things like the Volcano Set which are imbued with Fire Resistance too.

[Sinthe]

No. Why?

Melee classes scale far better than casters will.

And you guys have ways of breaking snares. A good mage should wreck you, but we're your counter-class. A good warlock or hunter will wreck us. It's not balanced 1v1 for every class. It's not intended too. If anything I'd say fix the scaling issues in the casters' favor. And I don't say that just because I'm a mage.

[Xiphus]

Plate armor gives you a disadvantage against frost for one reason: Yes, the ice won't exactly freeze your flesh, but the armor itself freezes, so now YOU ARE A FROZEN STATUE and you can't do nuts about that wizard who is now scrawling obscenity at that block of ice which encase your armor (and you are encased in it).

Fire, well, doesn't reach your flesh, but the heat does. You don't turn to cinders but you do boil alive. Yes, it slows your death, but you are going to die anyway unless you take off that armor! Plate armor merely turns the burst damage into a DoT. There is but one solution: Fireproofing your armor! In the past, tank drivers are vulnerable to molotov cocktails because the heat of that firebomb more or less turned the tank into an oven. However, nowadays, molotovs mean nothing because tanks have fireproof layer on it.

[Thelsuo]

Except that wearing hundreds of pounds of metal means you have that much more material to freeze you inside, or heat you within your own walking broiler, or to hamper you as you're hit with shadow energy or arcane power. So I'd say no, unless it's specifically enchanted to block magical energy (IE resistance gear).

Read any fantasy novel, and you'll see mundane warriors shaking in fear of having to face a wizard. That's why - the wizard, frail as they can be, can kill you no matter how tough and strong you are, because of the energies at his fingers.


Agreed, in a situation such as this the bulky armor would serve more as a tomb than to protect.

[Karkarov]

armor has no effect on magic in any rpg of note save the afforementioned exception of armor that is specifically made to resist a type of damage or magic. Any rules saying otherwise is idiotic. The only exception is rust based spells in dnd that turn metal to rust, which clearly makes sense as to why it is dangerous to plate wearers. Fire boils you? Please. on a cloth wearer the fire literally eats your clothes and melts your skin almost immediately. Which do you think is worse? Being hotter or literally being on fire? Frozen? Again non issue. Being encased in ice is encased in ice your frozen either way trust me plate armor isnt going to make you any "colder" in that situation. My next comment goes directly to the whole dodging magic arguement.

Didnt read all this but let me dispel a common misconception.

Plate armor is NOT cumbersome.... at all. Chain mail is actually harder to wear and less comfortable because the weight is all on your shoulders where as plate armor is evenly distributed over your entire body. I have literally seen video's of guys wearing suits of medieval plate doing backflips, no I am not joking. yeah they were in damn good shape and all that that entails but you think medieval warriors were a bunch of fat guys who never worked out or practiced? trust me the guys who actually used this stuff in the day could wear it for some time and go at it for a good length before needing rest.

Even in older D&D editions wearing full plate you still got a dex bonus even if it is capped. New rules I cant say though I dont know them.

[Yehvon]

Well if you wanna get read deep into the nitty gritty...

Magic should do as it does now to plate, which is wearing us down. Every other armored class has a way to me more mobile (aka speed, dodge, absorbing, fleeing, etc) and plate is left to just deal with it all.


To make it a pain frost/ice magic should slow us down and decrease our attack speed (as in the ice makes iron/steel stick) and all fire spells should cause DoT's to fatigue.(heats the plate to cause burns to body or exhaustion)

But that would be too cheap in gameplay so what I can make from it is plate cant disable their target unless they hit it. Every other class has a way to disable/dispell someone weither its a stun, fear, slow, a spell...something. Warriors have "a" slow down (10sec) and paladins have a stun (2 if you count 31pts ret talent) and only warriors can ward off "a" single spell for a few seconds. Paladins have a shield which is limited too. Priests and mages can easily just rebuff once its gone typically.

[Xiphus]

armor has no effect on magic in any rpg of note save the afforementioned exception of armor that is specifically made to resist a type of damage or magic. Any rules saying otherwise is idiotic. The only exception is rust based spells in dnd that turn metal to rust, which clearly makes sense as to why it is dangerous to plate wearers. Fire boils you? Please. on a cloth wearer the fire literally eats your clothes and melts your skin almost immediately. Which do you think is worse? Being hotter or literally being on fire? Frozen? Again non issue. Being encased in ice is encased in ice your frozen either way trust me plate armor isnt going to make you any "colder" in that situation. My next comment goes directly to the whole dodging magic arguement.

Didnt read all this but let me dispel a common misconception.

Plate armor is NOT cumbersome.... at all. Chain mail is actually harder to wear and less comfortable because the weight is all on your shoulders where as plate armor is evenly distributed over your entire body. I have literally seen video's of guys wearing suits of medieval plate doing backflips, no I am not joking. yeah they were in damn good shape and all that that entails but you think medieval warriors were a bunch of fat guys who never worked out or practiced? trust me the guys who actually used this stuff in the day could wear it for some time and go at it for a good length before needing rest.

Even in older D&D editions wearing full plate you still got a dex bonus even if it is capped. New rules I cant say though I dont know them.

Well, I do agree on the fire part, but I don't exactly agree about frost. First and foremost, metal dissipates heat as fast as it conducts it, so you actually freeze faster in plate or mail.

Plate IS cumbersome. It does hamper movement. In fact, mail is even worst. Yes, it is indeed true about people trained for that armor, but the same fellow is probably going to move alot better in leather. Heavy armor in huge battles is very helpful because you don't exactly have much room to move around. Plate in that situation saves lives. However, in say, small skirmishes, that plate wearer is going to have trouble trying to catch up with that archer who is now running around with a crossbow shooting at you. You just can't get to him. You can't dodge the bolts either. Yes, you die alot slower, but you are going to wear yourself down when that fellow keeps going around you in circles.

[Jabiba]

Didnt read all this but let me dispel a common misconception.

Plate armor is NOT cumbersome.... at all.

That's why it weighs like.. a lot. And then there's Heavy Plate, the mere fact that they have something called HEAVY plate. Seriously.

I've worn five pears of clothes and then Carhearts jacket and bibs to stay warm in the winter.. and while that's nowhere near as heavy, Sure as hell was cumbersome. Yeah you can be trained to move in plate, but you still won't be more agile than a roguesque time in leather.

(and while maybe modern day they might have some sort of metal plate that is extremely light, in medieval times.. they weren't light. I'd like to see someone in the time setting of WoW do a backflip in plate.)

Oh yeah and since I ended up posting in here. From all my RPG playing, I've held that magic isn't quite elemental, but magic. I mean there's Fire, then there's a mage's "magic fire." They are two entirely seperate things, from that how it affects your gear is different. And in D&D, at least, you had no bonuses to magic until your gear had a +1 or greater effect. There were magic items, then there were the +1 magic items... and those were the items that helped you do better against magic.

[Bryana]

Yes, metal conducts temperature much faster than leather/cloth. But also remember, it needs time to do so. You can wave your hand through a candle flame without taking any hurt, because you move too quickly for your skin to absorb the heat. A mage's fireball is just a big burst and then it's done, with a bit of a warm smolder. A fireball would just burst against the metal armor, the metal might get warm, but it would not gather enough heat to cause you or the armor any significant harm.

Immolation, on the other hand, would be different. Immolation is a slow, steady burn. The initial effect would cause little harm, but the slow burn would burn any unprotected parts of you, and after a few seconds you'd have a red hot breastplate resting against your skin. Of course, if you were wearing cloth, you'd still get hurt just as much, as your cloth would simply burn away and your skin would burn directly.

I don't see why they'd make direct damage spells do less than HoTs, though, so they just make everything ignore armor.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention: a lot of plate and mail armor is worn over thick padding. As far as I know, not many soldiers wore their breastplate resting on their bare shoulders.

[Karkarov]

I dont recall claiming it wasnt heavy. I dont recall saying a guy wearing light or no armor would not be more mobile. I do recall saying it was not as cumbersome as most people think and you could show agility perfectly well wearing it. Maybe someone hear thinks wearing five layers of t shirts and sweaters is cumbersome... but you arent a knight who has been training since he was 4 on how to kill people and wage war are you? my information is accurate despite the fact you might dissagree.

PS: Crossbow bolts fire at 60+ miles and hour. Unless you saw it coming you werent dodging it, I dont care what you wore. Also plate historicall sucks for protecting against crossbows. they werent nicknamed 'Knight killers" because they didnt punch through plate.

[Advurb]

Plate armor really doesn't protect very much against impact speaking from a real-world perspective. Getting hit in the breastplate with a sledgehammer (or fireball) is still going to knock you the fuggout.

[Jabiba]

Ya know, I still want to see whatever you talking about with the backflips.

Courtesy of Dictionary.com
cum·ber·some (kŭm'bər-səm) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Difficult to handle because of weight or bulk. See Synonyms at heavy.
2. Troublesome or onerous.

Just because you can train to move in plate, doesn't mean its no longer cumbersome. But I'm stopping on this because we're kinda derailing the thread.

[Aquizit]

No. Why?

Melee classes scale far better than casters will.

I'm Aquizit Shadesoul, and I approve this message.

Paid for by the Give Warlocks a Chance in PvP Association.

[Xiphus]

I dont recall claiming it wasnt heavy. I dont recall saying a guy wearing light or no armor would not be more mobile. I do recall saying it was not as cumbersome as most people think and you could show agility perfectly well wearing it. Maybe someone hear thinks wearing five layers of t shirts and sweaters is cumbersome... but you arent a knight who has been training since he was 4 on how to kill people and wage war are you? my information is accurate despite the fact you might dissagree.

PS: Crossbow bolts fire at 60+ miles and hour. Unless you saw it coming you werent dodging it, I dont care what you wore. Also plate historicall sucks for protecting against crossbows. they werent nicknamed 'Knight killers" because they didnt punch through plate.

Five layers of t-shirts and sweaters are cumbersome. I dare you to wear this much and run five laps, and compare with wearing one t-shirt.

In a skirmish, you WILL see the crossbows coming because you only see the crossbowman. And you still can't do much dodging because your mobility sucks thanks to the plate. And the leather. So you still get the crossbow!

[Leyujin]

There is another consideration to consider. What exactly are the properties of fantasy metals such as mithril, thorium, arcanite, felsteel, adamantite? All I can remember is from LOTR that mithril is extremely strong but very light. As these metals are listed in roughly increasing levels of protection, we can assume each provides more of it at the same weight. In all honesty, with fantasy metals, I don't see why mages and the like can't wear the equivalent of a bullet-proof vest made out of mithril or something. Maybe they do, which is why their cloth armor gets better, but it still can't take the chop from an arcanite reaper.

[Xiphus]

There is another consideration to consider. What exactly are the properties of fantasy metals such as mithril, thorium, arcanite, felsteel, adamantite? All I can remember is from LOTR that mithril is extremely strong but very light. As these metals are listed in roughly increasing levels of protection, we can assume each provides more of it at the same weight. In all honesty, with fantasy metals, I don't see why mages and the like can't wear the equivalent of a bullet-proof vest made out of mithril or something. Maybe they do, which is why their cloth armor gets better, but it still can't take the chop from an arcanite reaper.

Well, arcanite is more or less magically enhanced thorium. The magic used must had allowed it a much better cutting edge.