Racial attitudes regarding physical intimacy

[The_Golden_Wolf]

Actually Raz hinted to something I've been thinking about. Allot of people don't take race or faction into account. Most people supplant a human's sex drive onto their character which might (depending on which race we are talking about) be unnatural or excessive.

[Rand_Shea]

Actually Raz hinted to something I've been thinking about. Allot of people don't take race or faction into account. Most people supplant a human's sex drive onto their character which might (depending on which race we are talking about) be unnatural or excessive.

Sometimes. Races like Night Elves and the Blood Elves being the sexbunny races has always seemed weird to me... They live hundreds to thousands of years. The urge to breed really wouldn't be that strong as it would in humans that live, at most, maybe 110 years. If they're really lucky and healthy.

But, when people want to do nothing but cyber, they're usually going to pic toons that are the most attractive... Hence why cybering isn't RPing. It has nothing to do with roleplaying anything and everything to do with living vicariously through an artificial 'person' via text.

[Advurb]

Actually Raz hinted to something I've been thinking about. Allot of people don't take race or faction into account. Most people supplant a human's sex drive onto their character which might (depending on which race we are talking about) be unnatural or excessive.

I agree. Culturally (as far as I know) Night Elves, Forsaken (both of mine are like this) and Tauren probably would not be as involved in ERP as some people play them (mostly the NElfs).

Also, people don't understand the social consequences of sleeping around all the time. Seems to me at least that Blood Elves would look down upon prostitution or its lesser forms big time. For a race (in general) that prefers a proper, aristocratic society, there sure are a lot of tramps.

[Skafloc]

Sometimes. Races like Night Elves and the Blood Elves being the sexbunny races has always seemed weird to me... They live hundreds to thousands of years. The urge to breed really wouldn't be that strong as it would in humans that live, at most, maybe 110 years. If they're really lucky and healthy..

Hence the cleverness and accuracy of the troll flirt emotes. :D

[Rand_Shea]

Hence the cleverness and accuracy of the troll flirt emotes. :D

That's more of a standard put on by their own culture due to the lifestyles they live. They'd probably be able to live hundreds of years as well if they didn't live in such harsh environments or practice such high risk lifestyles. Intimate relationships with them are also pretty rare, if I remember correctly, because of the liklihood that (the males, at least) run a high risk of going out to hunt or go to war and never come back.

[Skafloc]

That's more of a standard put on by their own culture due to the lifestyles they live. They'd probably be able to live hundreds of years as well if they didn't live in such harsh environments or practice such high risk lifestyles. Intimate relationships with them are also pretty rare, if I remember correctly, because of the liklihood that (the males, at least) run a high risk of going out to hunt or go to war and never come back.

Thats pretty much as I understand their culture. They would not pair bond to raise young, rather a female would find a male with traits she desires and selects him as a sire. After that it is sayonara and the tribe in general would collectively raise young Kubbitz style. At least that is how I rp'd Lupa's upbringing in Raventusk.

[Leyujin]

Not everything.

A soldier who has killed 10,000 people won't flinch at killing 10,000 more.
The mundane to some may be the astronomical to others.

Eroticism? Mundane.

Especially in a Spartan Society like the Horde has. It's a weakness to show, and showing a weakness is wishing for it to be exploited.


Actually Raz hinted to something I've been thinking about. Allot of people don't take race or faction into account. Most people supplant a human's sex drive onto their character which might (depending on which race we are talking about) be unnatural or excessive.

I think a Spartan society more accurately describes the Fel Horde. As demonic foot-soldiers, War *was* everything, and I have no doubt rape and women as baby-mills as well. However, the previous and subsequent Shamanic society is much more tribalistic. Patriarchy may be extant, but with Thrall acting as a modernizing force as sorts (as evidenced in the Crossroads, and less officially by all the female Orc NPCs which seem to be involved in combat)), I'd say the New Horde is not strictly Spartan. The old hold-overs will of course be more prone to chauvinism and warriorship, but I think those would be the minority. The one in-game example of Orc relationships we have is relatively tender, if brutishly slapstick.

Trolls would be mainly patriarchal, and also as a more insular race, less likely to adopt Thrall's reforms as quickly. However, their society was never Spartan. Tauren are tribalistic, and have no evidence of being chauvinistic; it's entirely possible that certain tribes are in fact matriarchal rather than patriarchal, as shown by the Grimtotem. Forsaken likely have little if any interest in sex, or emotional relationships at all. Blood Elves? High Elves were shown as very proper; Blood Elves are more prone to base emotions, so who knows about them. Certainly their relationship with demons seems to have made them fodder for bondage and kinky attitudes. I suppose if it happened to the Romans, it can happen to Elves. Fall from grace seems to be a common tie between the two. <grins>

I'd agree with Raz that open displays of affection are rare in the "majority" of the Horde. Most of the female inhabitants are home-makers, and if they're the minority that have advanced to a higher station, they likely have more important things to do than play kiss kiss. The feel one gets from Horde quests is that there is constant struggle, and a business-like attitude to deal with it. I don't know what it's like Alliance side, but I got the impression from the few quests I did that they have more time to kick back.

As Golden Wolf pointed out, most players impose a humanistic interpretation onto these races, and a Western Eurasian one at that. If you've ever read any anthropology books of different cultures, you'll know, even among the human species, how much difference there can be. I'd likely peg Orcs as being similar (note, not in any way identical) to Mongolian cultures, in their incarnation as a shamanistic culture, Trolls as being a hybrid of Rastafarian, Haitian, Mayan, Incan and Aztec cultures, and Tauren being the sum totality of Native American tribes, primarily Plains? These are all vastly different from contemporary Eurasian society. To actually roleplay accurately in the Warcraft world, erotically or otherwise, I think one needs to take this into account.

Gah, wall of text made me miss responses. Still makes a point, though.

[EnheilRas]

Tauren are tribalistic, and have no evidence of being chauvinistic; it's entirely possible that certain tribes are in fact matriarchal rather than patriarchal, as shown by the Grimtotem.

Magatha married the Chieftain, and he died soon after in a Bluff Climbing incident. The Grimtotem weren't Matriarchal.

[Izrail]

Moved from the ERP thread (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=13727) since the focus of this conversation is on Lore, not style.

[Fallacy]

That's more of a standard put on by their own culture due to the lifestyles they live. They'd probably be able to live hundreds of years as well if they didn't live in such harsh environments or practice such high risk lifestyles. Intimate relationships with them are also pretty rare, if I remember correctly, because of the liklihood that (the males, at least) run a high risk of going out to hunt or go to war and never come back.

Trolls actually have the shortest lifespan of all the playable races, and not because of conflict. Their high metabolism (growing back limbs and such) shortens their lives compared to others. Zul'jin is a special case, being sustained by the Loa for his long life.

[Ofanim]

Doesn't that go against the Wolverine logic?

[EnheilRas]

Doesn't that go against the Wolverine logic?

It has also allowed them to evolve the fastest

... oooh wait...

[Nymare]

Sometimes. Races like Night Elves and the Blood Elves being the sexbunny races has always seemed weird to me... They live hundreds to thousands of years. The urge to breed really wouldn't be that strong as it would in humans that live, at most, maybe 110 years. If they're really lucky and healthy.


Blood Elves? High Elves were shown as very proper; Blood Elves are more prone to base emotions, so who knows about them. Certainly their relationship with demons seems to have made them fodder for bondage and kinky attitudes. I suppose if it happened to the Romans, it can happen to Elves. Fall from grace seems to be a common tie between the two. <grins>

First, yes, I agree... them bitches is crazy. They were pushed to the brink of extinction and lost the very essence of their being, only to have it supplemented with fel energy instead. Oh yeah, good job!

But it's the brink of extinction that I think helps feed their sexbunniness. Survival of the species. Must procreate!

...and then I realize 90% of blood elves are same-sex oriented and... there goes my theory.

Carry on!

[The_Golden_Wolf]

As Golden Wolf pointed out, most players impose a humanistic interpretation onto these races, and a Western Eurasian one at that. If you've ever read any anthropology books of different cultures, you'll know, even among the human species, how much difference there can be. I'd likely peg Orcs as being similar (note, not in any way identical) to Mongolian cultures, in their incarnation as a shamanistic culture, Trolls as being a hybrid of Rastafarian, Haitian, Mayan, Incan and Aztec cultures, and Tauren being the sum totality of Native American tribes, primarily Plains? These are all vastly different from contemporary Eurasian society. To actually roleplay accurately in the Warcraft world, erotically or otherwise, I think one needs to take this into account.

I have actually done quite a bit of reading into primitive culture. So, yes it is absolutely going to be different. These aren't just different cultures, they are different races with completely different biologies. Rand pointed out that races with extended life spans wouldn't have much of an 'urge' to reproduce. I agree with this to an extent. It is part of the reason that I have never really played any of my Elf characters as being particularly focussed on sex or overt flirtations. My troll, I have just begun reopening my anthropology books and rereading (as mentioned above) about caribbean island tribes, and keeping up with my lore. I don't think it is a "must do" for everyone, but accuracy and immersion is important to me. At least as far as biology goes.

[Chikt]

I am inclined to say that Tauren ARE a race that are fairly 'loose' when it comes to sex simply because they are a more tribal society. If however we're talking about how OFTEN they have it and with how many different people, I think that is a different matter. They strike me as the type to (at least attempt) to find a life partner.

But then, they've been a part of the Horde for a long time now, and you've got to imagine that the actions and characteristics of other races rub off on eachother. I think we've seen hints of that in game already, and I expect to see even more of it come Wrath. Draenei are already adopting Azeroth as their home and its adventurous lifestyle.

[Ke'juarez]

Also, people don't understand the social consequences of sleeping around all the time. Seems to me at least that Blood Elves would look down upon prostitution or its lesser forms big time. For a race (in general) that prefers a proper, aristocratic society, there sure are a lot of tramps.

Well, if we take an anecdotal example from RL, the most sexually repressed cultures also tend to be the most secretly perverse. If we take this into consideration, along with the Blood Elves barely avoiding mass genocide, the culture is ripe for a Sexual Revolution of sorts.

[The_Golden_Wolf]

^ You have a very good point.

However, I think we are ignoring actual hormone production here. For example, I would think that Night Elves... with their extremely long lifespans wouldn't produce the amount of hormone needed to support a strong sex drive. Blood elves even with the mass destruction of their race, that drive would mostly likely not match a humans, and even if it did increase it would be very temporary. Shorter life span equals more reproductive hormone, which equates to wanting to "do it" more.

Hell even humans are oversexed. In much of my anthropological research, most tribes engaged in sexual activity waaaay less than we do. In fact the level to which they abstained would probably boggle the modern mind. But, then again they didn't have their whole environment saturated with it. That is another thing to consider as well. Environment and biology.

[Vilmah]

Hell even humans are oversexed. In much of my anthropological research, most tribes engaged in sexual activity waaaay less than we do. In fact the level to which they abstained would probably boggle the modern mind. But, then again they didn't have their whole environment saturated with it. That is another thing to consider as well. Environment and biology.

You'd be surprised by how much many Natives find modern American society to be oversexed. It's so saturated in our media that it's kind of weird. We haven't reached crazy-ass indulgent modern day Rome society yet, but man is it getting there. I wouldn't be surprised to see a vomitorium or two pop up

[Lisbet]

I have always been a firm believer that most people play Night elves wrong. That being said, there are two factors to take into thought.

1. They were immortal for 10 thousand years. Ten fucking thousand years where they didn't age or have weakness to illness or poisons. Now they are suddenly and magically NOT immune to life. It -would- spawn a little bit of "oo I need to actually procreate now?" in their race.

2. They were introduced to the human race, which is much younger, has more fun, and fills life with all the fun parts that Night elves wouldn't have thought to think of.


Even still, they should hardly be the sexbunnies they're portrayed as in game. Mae, with all her weirdness with liking every other kind of male but her own race, still isn't a sex bunny. She got married like a good girl ;p

Night elves, and by association all elves, should probably not have quite the sex drive most people play them to have. Mind you, blood elves were nearly wiped off the map, and night elves lost their immortality, but they live 1000 and 800 years, respectively, and they have a LONNG ass time to worry about baby making ;p

[Malethia]

For blood elves, at least, I doubt it would have anything to do with procreation. It's a race whose passions run hot, be it for love, coin, power, or whatever else a given individual happens to desire.

[Nymare]

However, I think we are ignoring actual hormone production here. For example, I would think that Night Elves... with their extremely long lifespans wouldn't produce the amount of hormone needed to support a strong sex drive. Blood elves even with the mass destruction of their race, that drive would mostly likely not match a humans, and even if it did increase it would be very temporary.

Temporary? I don't know about that. That's evolution. That's "nature finding a way". Maybe, after a while, when things start to balance out again, their hormones would change again, and while this (and, in that case, everything else in nature) can be considered a "temporary" thing, I don't think it would qualify as short term. It would likely have to last for at least a generation of successful offspring - but the amount of research into biology and anthropology to find things to back this up with is not really how I want to spend my morning. However, if subscribing to evolution and biological changes, it is rare that things just happen all of a sudden and then disappear all of a sudden - for instance, we still have an appendix, which we haven't really needed since the days before we figured out how to cook meat over the fire... as opposed to growing a third eye and then having it disappear a few years later.

The societal, behavioral, and physiological changes they have had to endure as a result of losing the Sunwell and most of their race is likely not something they would recover from in the 5-6 years since its occurance. If anything, these 5-6 years have served as the building blocks of what they are now, Sin'Dorei, and in what direction they will continue to push, much in the same way the use of Arcane magic is what catalyzed the divergence of the elves 10,000 years ago into Highborne and Kaldorei - and even more rapid changes, such as Highborne into Satyrs, or Sin'Dorei into Wretched or Fel Bloods.

While more biologically complex than frogs (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bio99/bio99128.htm) or sharks (http://www.nova.edu/ocean/ghri/cnn_virginshark.html), I don't expect them to suddenly change sex to help "assure their reproductive success" or experience virgin births via The Light or nature, I do expect they are undergoing dramatic physiological changes to compensate for DEWM and behavioral changes that may or may not set a precedent in this new race, as a direct and damaging result of DEWM.

What they have witnessed, what they have endured -not too unlike a war veteran who "wasn't the same man when he came back"- what they were seems less and less a standard to hold them up to, compared to what they are and what they may become.

[Skafloc]

For blood elves, at least, I doubt it would have anything to do with procreation. It's a race whose passions run hot, be it for love, coin, power, or whatever else a given individual happens to desire.

While I do think procreation would have some to do with it. Species survival instincts are to procreate when threatened with destruction. I also recognize what Mal is saying here as well. Blood Elves are a culture that has been shaped by vice and addiction. The lust for the almighty high is entrenched in their very physiology. That would include pleasure I would completely expect.

[Ellsbeth]

There is also power to consider. If you are immortal you do not need to raise children to be immortal. You -are- immortal. Barring the odd chance that you may get offed, you don't need to have progeny to follow in your footsteps.

Royalty especially would not bother with having many children because more children means more hassle when Princeling Six Hundred and Twelve wants to have a piece of the pie. A big part of reproduction is considerations inheritance. As a leader in a society where inheritance is passed through blood, you would not necessarily want to have hundreds of children (which is easily possible in OUR human lifetimes) because you will run into issues where the children will squabble and kill eachother over who gets what should you get offed accidentally.

I can't imagine Sin'Dorei/Quel'Dorei having huge families. For one thing, their respective societies would have been stable. When there is no death except by accident, there is no need to grow the population. That being said, there was a huge war event not that long ago where many died. Death, likely to an immortal, could have the effect where they are as wanton and slutty as we make them out to be. We know that's not part of their motivations though. That's OUR motivations as players. But that's a moot point.

Unfortunately I only have human cultures to compare to and no human culture is immortal. So it's definitely a case of apples to oranges.

When it comes to Quel'Dorei and Sin'Dorei there were some questions I needed answered that I highly doubt Blizzard would ever answer. The design of their cities is definitely Arabian. Would then their culture be somewhat based on the Arabic world? Their obsession with magic, would they have different forms of birth control based on magic? Would they consider same-sex relationships taboo?

Here's the heavy. Would they consider incestuous relationships as taboo? Remember... you live forever. The taboo against incestuous relationships in our culture is based on the superstition that we all think it's gross and babies are going to have six arms when they pop out. But that's not what genetics proves. Having sex with your sibling means that any genetic trait of your family will be more likely to occur. So if your family has a history of six arms, then the percentage of the six arms occurring will be high. My question is that in a society where you live forever, wouldn't it be a smart idea for siblings to stay together so their land isn't torn asunder when/if their parents die?

Hell we don't really know that they are born or not just grown out of magic as babies. No matter how I click, the orphan lady in the Lower City won't explain the facts of life to me.


Also if someone has the D20 book, I know they wrote up some half-assed thing it. Would you be able to cut and paste?

[Yichimet]

Also if someone has the D20 book, I know they wrote up some half-assed thing it. Would you be able to cut and paste?

I'll check it when I get home later this afternoon.

[Ellsbeth]

I'll check it when I get home later this afternoon.

Thanks Yichi! I'd write a haiku in adoration, but that's your special thing. *grins*

[Aphraelle]

...and then I realize 90% of blood elves are same-sex oriented and... there goes my theory.

Carry on!

Heh. I always figured the sexbunniness (new word! :D) was a result of the OMFG-we've-almost-been-wiped-out racial drive to procreate and replenish the species' numbers.

As for the same-sex thing, I haven't put a lot of thought into it, but I remember saying something off-the-cuff to Jabiba once when we were RPing, that it had to do with elves' very long lifespans. Same-sex sex doesn't make babies, so it was a spacing mechanism to spread children out over an elf's life. You don't really want very long-lived people (Blood Elves) or full-on immortals (Night Elves until recently) having children all over the place: serious overpopulation issue very quickly.

[Aphraelle]

Don't forget too that sex drive and public display of affection/sexuality have nothing to do with each other. Many Asian cultures are rather squeamish about seeing couples (i.e. opposite-sex couples) holding hands or kissing in public. It's considered indecent, so people are extremely reserved and, by Western standards, cold in public. Doesn't mean they don't go at it like crazed mink behind closed doors. This is also true of a number of North American indigenous cultures.

And with all the parallels for various RL cultures in the various races, there's one omission I've always been a little curious about. Since Trolls seem to live near water frequently, and given the style of their architecture, I'm surprised I haven't seen mention of the Polynesian cultures and/or some of the cultures of Papua New Guinea, such as the Korowai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korowai).

[The_Golden_Wolf]

You'd be surprised by how much many Natives find modern American society to be oversexed. It's so saturated in our media that it's kind of weird. We haven't reached crazy-ass indulgent modern day Rome society yet, but man is it getting there. I wouldn't be surprised to see a vomitorium or two pop up

Yes, many tribes practiced years (yes I said years) of abstinence to protect the physical integrity of their offspring.

[The_Golden_Wolf]

Here's the heavy. Would they consider incestuous relationships as taboo? Remember... you live forever. The taboo against incestuous relationships in our culture is based on the superstition that we all think it's gross and babies are going to have six arms when they pop out. But that's not what genetics proves. Having sex with your sibling means that any genetic trait of your family will be more likely to occur. So if your family has a history of six arms, then the percentage of the six arms occurring will be high. My question is that in a society where you live forever, wouldn't it be a smart idea for siblings to stay together so their land isn't torn asunder when/if their parents die?

Yes! Finally someone who actually knows that incest (in and of itself) doesn't automatically create deformities. And if it does, why it happens. /molests

Plus, you make a good point. There would probably be quite a bit of incestual marraiges.

[Yichimet]

Thanks Yichi! I'd write a haiku in adoration, but that's your special thing. *grins*

So I have it in PDF form and it's taking a while to find it since it's a scan and not a real PDF (*coughEmmonstaughtmehowcough*), so I can't cmd+f it. I'll see what I can find over dinner!

[The_Golden_Wolf]

Temporary? I don't know about that. That's evolution. That's "nature finding a way". Maybe, after a while, when things start to balance out again, their hormones would change again, and while this (and, in that case, everything else in nature) can be considered a "temporary" thing, I don't think it would qualify as short term. It would likely have to last for at least a generation of successful offspring - but the amount of research into biology and anthropology to find things to back this up with is not really how I want to spend my morning. However, if subscribing to evolution and biological changes, it is rare that things just happen all of a sudden and then disappear all of a sudden - for instance, we still have an appendix, which we haven't really needed since the days before we figured out how to cook meat over the fire... as opposed to growing a third eye and then having it disappear a few years later.

The societal, behavioral, and physiological changes they have had to endure as a result of losing the Sunwell and most of their race is likely not something they would recover from in the 5-6 years since its occurance. If anything, these 5-6 years have served as the building blocks of what they are now, Sin'Dorei, and in what direction they will continue to push, much in the same way the use of Arcane magic is what catalyzed the divergence of the elves 10,000 years ago into Highborne and Kaldorei - and even more rapid changes, such as Highborne into Satyrs, or Sin'Dorei into Wretched or Fel Bloods.

While more biologically complex than frogs (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bio99/bio99128.htm) or sharks (http://www.nova.edu/ocean/ghri/cnn_virginshark.html), I don't expect them to suddenly change sex to help "assure their reproductive success" or experience virgin births via The Light or nature, I do expect they are undergoing dramatic physiological changes to compensate for DEWM and behavioral changes that may or may not set a precedent in this new race, as a direct and damaging result of DEWM.

What they have witnessed, what they have endured -not too unlike a war veteran who "wasn't the same man when he came back"- what they were seems less and less a standard to hold them up to, compared to what they are and what they may become.

You make very valid points, and I want to make sure that It doesn't appear that I'm disregarding them. The use of fel itself would probably change their normal biology quite a bit! As far as reproductive urge, what is frequent for a belf? Once a month? Twice a month?

I suppose my initial "gripe" if you want to call it that, is that it isn't only frequency, but the whole of human sexuality that is being supplanted here. For example, why haven't their been more pregnancies if they are sexing eachother up so much? Is it just that folks don't want to RP that? Would they be using contraception as a way to prevent it? And if so, why would they if they need to repopulate? Why the lack of marriages and the frequent divorces and breakups? Wouldn't that also be a big no no in such a high class society where heirs need to be produced? What is with all the bondage and kink? The bawdy flirtations? This mirrors HUMAN society.

And you better believe nobles would be marrying off and producing babies as fast as their biology allowed.

/claps

Chop chop, get to it!

I want to see some freaking babies being made nao!

[Ke'juarez]

Yes! Finally someone who actually knows that incest (in and of itself) doesn't automatically create deformities. And if it does, why it happens. /molests

Plus, you make a good point. There would probably be quite a bit of incestual marraiges.

So, wait, we can't make fun of West Virginia anymore?
In terms of marriages, or the lack thereof, I think that's just based on the individual characters. Some want marriage, some don't.


P.S. I kid West Virginia. With love.

[Sifar]

My take on Dwarves: (Yeah, you squeamish folk can skip over this nasty topic.)

From what I've read and seen in people's RP, Dwarves tend to be pretty reserved and even shy about sex. They might flirt with the barmaid or eye a good looking lad, but the role of family comes first and the idea of just "messing around" is rather foreign to their culture. In my travels, I've met many brothers, family men, dedicated wives, and brave adventurers who haven't settled down yet. No where does sex or sexuality seem to really come up in their RP. It's considered a private affair and, I might add, a very fun part of that private life.

Of those I've played, I have a mom with a lout of a husband and a lovely daughter, a seamstress hoping to find the right lad someday, and a semi-lost just barely out of her "teens" gal who's trying to figure it out without a family support structure. All consider it something of a private choice and not something to be aired in public. Ever.

[Ignas]

Hmm, personally, I have always thought that the "sexbunny" stereotypes were given to the Night Elves/Blood Elves because they are the "hottest" of the races. Humans, Draenei, and others fit there as well, but I never really figured that it was something to think about ICly since it was just people doing what they wanted on their end of the computer.

This thread brings up some interesting questions, and since most of them have to do with the social aspects of the races, I can't answer them. In my mind, we can only really guess as to how the races think and react to certain social situations. However, the points made in this thread do make sense and I applaud those who can formulate such complex social relationships in a fantasy world. /applaud =)

There is, however, another question that I have yet to see pop up and I am surprised it hasn't. It was mentioned somewhat in another thread regarding half-dragons and I pose it in this thread as well.

What of inter-racial relationships? Love can obviously grow from many sources, but what about a physical relationship between, say, a Tauren and a Dwarf? Would a Tauren even be able to have or desire a physical relationship with another race? I use Taurens since they are quite different physiologically than most of the other races. And what about half-breeds? We know that Draenei and Orcs can produce offspring (despite them having supposedly completely different evolutionary and physiological backgrounds) but whether or not they are viable offspring is unknown to me. If the offspring are viable then, from a biological standpoint, they are the same species, which is unlikely.

Alright, lets see some good, clean, brainstorming. Go!

[The_Golden_Wolf]

In terms of marriages, or the lack thereof, I think that's just based on the individual characters. Some want marriage, some don't.

Meh, I dunno. I am more apt to believe it is more of the whim of the player than anything else. Several of the races would be very marriage/family oriented from what I gather.

[LorFedorovic]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a vomitorium or two pop up
Just... wanna add.... (I'm an archaeology major and had this hammered into my face all my life) Vomitoriums aren't actually rooms in which Romans went to throw up after a game. I'm not disagreeing with your point at all, just needed to correct it, and it is a common misconception. That's a thing bad historians tell tourists to make them laugh. It's actually the exit... hence where we got our word "vomit" which refers to the exit of material from ones stomach. It's where people would go to leave after a show or fight. Roman theaters still sometimes have one which allows actors to enter and exit quickly.

[Nymare]

why haven't their been more pregnancies if they are sexing eachother up so much? Is it just that folks don't want to RP that? Would they be using contraception as a way to prevent it? And if so, why would they if they need to repopulate? Why the lack of marriages and the frequent divorces and breakups? Wouldn't that also be a big no no in such a high class society where heirs need to be produced? What is with all the bondage and kink? The bawdy flirtations? This mirrors HUMAN society.

And you better believe nobles would be marrying off and producing babies as fast as their biology allowed.

/claps

Chop chop, get to it!

I want to see some freaking babies being made nao!

In regard to human behaviors in how their intimacies and relationships are being played out, I would be willing to theorize that they just don't get it, yet. How many are consciously aware of where the need to procreate is coming from? Must hump everything! No idea why! I just need to!

They've fallen from grace.

As well, I think a level of escapism could play into their actions. Just don't think about it. Get your thistle, get yo' bitches, party down at Satheril's, HAPPINESS IS MANDATORY - through whatever means? Do whatever it takes to fill the hole left behind by the loss of everything, don't look at the Scar, Lor'Themar will lead us to glory. /nod /smile

Bondage and kink? Just another distraction. Why do people cut themselves? To redirect the focus of pain. Physical is easier to deal with than emotional. Control and losing it in a time where pressure to have control and the desire to lose it without the world falling down around you is another way to feed escape. Distractions.

I will agree, however, that most of the flaws going into how blood elves are played are likely a direct result of the players, but that doesn't mean that such things cannot be explained away ICly as well.


As for babies... They exist! How many mommies do we have running around? Ninorra, Zelaine, Pearlle... uh, Tivian, I think? I admit that I can't keep up with every journal, or keep every name straight, and I don't hang around SMC a lot, but there are more babies floating around than I would expect from RPers, and no telling how many babies floating around that I don't have any idea about. (not to mention undead babies)

Then there are characters like mine... who think children have no place in this world. Yes, she understands the need to procreate, especially between those she considers actually worthy of having kids -she SHOULD have a kid, cause it would be the most awesome kid ever... like... savior of the galaxy- but she strongly believes that this world sucks, is likely doomed (given her guild and what she does), and having a baby would only keep her from going out and being the badass she needs to be. So while she listens to her biological urges in a surprisingly monogamous manner, she takes steps to counter any potential offspring.

In any case, I am sure there are characters out there with kids who I don't even know about, and then what about the rest of the world? NPCs in game and created in people's stories - extended family, etc - surely there are babies out there.

And yes, about the nobles thing, I agree. Infact, that is how Nym started out... engaged to a noble for influence, money, and breeding.

But, in closing...

These are all my theories, more to be taken to thought than considered any sort of real argument. People will RP how they want, no matter how much sense I think it makes or not. AND... Babies exist! But, uh... you first! >.> I'm gonna go burn my character now and have her write a live journal about it.

[The_Golden_Wolf]

AND... Babies exist! But, uh... you first! >.> I'm gonna go burn my character now and have her write a live journal about it.

Me first? What make tha babies?? :P

[Yichimet]

All right, this cowdude can't find any reference to sexuality, baby-makin', mores or otherwise in the D20 books he has, but he just realized that they're for the Warcraft D20, not the WoW D20, so maybe that's the disconnect? Also, he just realized he's talking about himself in the third person.

Right. Time for bed.

[Thrysta]

((
I am all about the sweet, sweet lovin'.
))

[Visca]

Ok, I am not a professor of Anthropology or some such, but I have some views none the less.

Because the Night Elves, the Draenei and the Quel'dorei (Or Sin'dorei. Using the name of the race, not their faction for this part) are so long lived, perhaps the female menstrual cycle is different? Seeing as women have all their eggs from birth, and these races are similarly sized, it seems unlikely that they have More eggs in their ovaries. As such, this leads to two possibilities does it not? Either the Cycle is longer, or they reach metaphase much faster.

Continuing this type of logic, perhaps the males are also less fertile to begin with? Perhaps their sperm count is much lower than that of a human?

I do not believe that such races are going to refrain from such activities as some are suggesting due to biological means... As they are sentient races, they commit these actions for more than procreation. They do it out of pleasure, out of love, out of passion, out of lust... many reason humans have such relations after all.

Marriage is something that would likely be uncommon due to “Death til us part”… When you live, 400, 1000… god knows how long, that isn’t so appealing necessarily. And interracial relationships? There have been a few in the lore, mostly with close allies. But, according to the RPG book (As seen on Wowwiki) the offspring are looked down upon as inferiors.

Hm, a lot of stuff written here… Perhaps I’ll have more later, but this seems good for now. I do love the Lore section.

[Rai]

There is, however, another question that I have yet to see pop up and I am surprised it hasn't. It was mentioned somewhat in another thread regarding half-dragons and I pose it in this thread as well.

What of inter-racial relationships? Love can obviously grow from many sources, but what about a physical relationship between, say, a Tauren and a Dwarf? Would a Tauren even be able to have or desire a physical relationship with another race? I use Taurens since they are quite different physiologically than most of the other races. And what about half-breeds? We know that Draenei and Orcs can produce offspring (despite them having supposedly completely different evolutionary and physiological backgrounds) but whether or not they are viable offspring is unknown to me. It is not hard to find people in the real world whose lust is not limited towards … others of their species. That alone would make it possible since, though lore typically points out the differences in racial culture, it also continually points out the similarity in psychology between the different races. Lust, defiantly possible.
Love? It would just be limited to the person one would suppose.


If the offspring are viable then, from a biological standpoint, they are the same species, which is unlikely.
Well close. Species is pretty sticky in terms of definition, but when you hear it used it this sense, it is in reference to more then just biological ability to reproduce. It is sometimes used in relation to species that don’t interbreed in the wild but could and have in human captivity (with the proper motivation). Sometimes the interbreeding occurs between two different species and the offspring just isn’t (as you put it) viable. Of course the offspring is still there and able to live, as sort of a mule, but it brings to mind whether of not all these half-elves are infertile. Also it is important to point out that while typically these mixed species animals are infertile, there have been cases where they can further reproduce. Mules are thought of as infertile because they are the mixing of two species (or vise-versa depending on how you look at it) and then every-now-and-then you find the fluke mule that can reproduce.


Oh, and to add something on that point:
All of the above is probably moot. Lore writers are not biologists and as far as we know the “genus” of all lifeforms in warcraft seems to be either magically evolved(plagued) machines or beings directly created by mystical gods.
Maybe that means they are all capable of viable offspring. Magic ftw?

[Necroxis]

Marriage is something that would likely be uncommon due to “Death til us part”… When you live, 400, 1000… god knows how long, that isn’t so appealing necessarily. And interracial relationships? There have been a few in the lore, mostly with close allies. But, according to the RPG book (As seen on Wowwiki) the offspring are looked down upon as inferiors.


1.) Malfurion + Tyrande, they've been "lovers" (Thats how Blizzard puts it) for over a thousand years.

2.) Cenarius certainly isn't looked down upon as inferior (Hes the offspring of Elune + Malorne.

Ok...maybe the Cenarius one is stretching it a bit because he is a demi-god. However, what about Garona? She certainly wasn't looked down upon, hell she killed Llane Wrynn

[Rai]

Ok...maybe the Cenarius one is stretching it a bit because he is a demi-god. However, what about Garona? She certainly wasn't looked down upon, hell she killed Llane WrynnWell she was looked down upon by the other orcs and only used for the assassination assignment because it was their hope that her less the full orcish features would be more of a bridge for the humans to trust her (and even then, you can count the humans that did trust her on one hand).

[Grimfury]

Tauren:
First and foremost, tauren are basically a cow humanoid type creature. Personally, in real life i've lived on a farm my entire life. I know from my own experiences with cattle that there is no sense of fatherhood for them. The females have a very strong maternal instinct but the males could care less about their offspring. Males also couple with multiple females, they will mate with anything that comes into heat. They also try to mount each other and other species such as horses, so that might clear up some issues. Bulls will actually respond when a female is watching them through the fence and will exhibit different behavior when a woman tends them than a man. This is assuming you actually go with their species traits which we actually have an IRL record of. Hope it helps.
Grim

[Necroxis]

Well she was looked down upon by the other orcs and only used for the assassination assignment because it was their hope that her less the full orcish features would be more of a bridge for the humans to trust her (and even then, you can count the humans that did trust her on one hand).

I don't know if she was looked down upon by the Orcs, since she was Gul'dan's chief interpretor for the Shadow Council, I'd be more scared/worried of her because of that instead of her having 1 non-orc parent. But yes, she was an outcast, but I think there were much more reasons than being a Half-Orc. Her work with the Shadow Council, befriending Khadgar, Medivh, Lothar, and Llane, and even helping them. (Before she killed Llane that is :P)

[Lascivious]

Well, if we take an anecdotal example from RL, the most sexually repressed cultures also tend to be the most secretly perverse.

that's why i like conservative chicks. they're crazy hawt in the sack.

[Swerto]

Well... time for me to put my two cents in....


Blood Elves are VERY Hedonistic, the last I checked sex=pleasure, and with hedonism pleasure=highest good no matter if it brings negative consequences later on. This is why I see BE sexbunnies as perfectly plausable, as well as gays just being shrugged at. BE society is becoming very "Roman". You guys should look out... you might get a Nero.

Tauren? They're very tribal. They would probably go for life partnership over sex, and it would be very uncommon for a whore Tauren. Ones who were would probably be looked down upon.

Orcs? I think the Mongolian simmilarities are very obvious, it's perfectly fine to make those connections. I don't see many Orc whores around... so I guess this isn't a major problem.

Forsaken? Are you fucking kidding me? We're done with human emotions, and pleasure from sex is one of those feelings that is left for the living. Forsaken sex... it probably isn't even sex as you guys think it is. I would think Forsaken would get off by something else, maybe by some joint murder of a living person, or something psychic... hell if I know... I never explored that with my Forsaken. I know there are still Forsaken with human emotions (mine in particular... even if he started to drop them left and right eventually, but to say that they'd be sex bunnies? Maybe rape, but not sex.

Trolls? Sex bunnies all around just not as big of a deal. Wohoo... I think trolls are probably the people with the strongest sex drive in the game, they even top humans.

Night Elves? Nah, maybe not as many sex bunnies but there are sure to be a few. The sudden realization that they'll die someday now has probably made them go "oh... not good, time to have some fun while we can!" This doesn't mean 90% of the population is a moving sex organ...

Humans? Do I even have to say this one? We're the ones playing this damn game... you guess.(that's a yeah, maybe add another 100% onto that)

Dranei? Dranei probably look at sex in a completely pleasure-only sort of way, and probably dont' go for it in a "procreation" way. You've got to understand sentient beings have more than one purpose for sex. Dranei aren't in a hurry to procreate, even if their population is small. From what I've read Dranei births are rare.

Dwarves? Probably a slightly more tame human... if they're sober... which they never are.

Gnomes? I won't touch this one with a ten foot pole.

[Tirralys]

Forsaken? Are you fucking kidding me? We're done with human emotions, and pleasure from sex is one of those feelings that is left for the living. Forsaken sex... it probably isn't even sex as you guys think it is. I would think Forsaken would get off by something else, maybe by some joint murder of a living person, or something psychic... hell if I know... I never explored that with my Forsaken. I know there are still Forsaken with human emotions (mine in particular... even if he started to drop them left and right eventually, but to say that they'd be sex bunnies? Maybe rape, but not sex.


You know, I was thinking of the same thing when it came to Vampires in V:TM. I know WoW and V:TM are two different premises, but hear me out.

Vampires are undead..they don't do things like humans do (well, unless your Toreador...damn human lovers) but supposedly a form of 'sex' is still on the table, and its supposedly a greater pleasure then human sex, even though they never talk about it openly.

While I am not saying that I want freaky necrophilia everywhere, but maybe there might be a similarity between Forsaken and V:TM sex? Just like how Forsaken can see without eyes, maybe there is a form of 'sex' they can partake in that stimulates them even after undeath?

[Raziel]

Vampires are undead..they don't do things like humans do (well, unless your Toreador...damn human lovers) but supposedly a form of 'sex' is still on the table, and its supposedly a greater pleasure then human sex, even though they never talk about it openly.

But those do it only because it helps them delude themselves into thinking they're still alive. It's only for psycho-somatic reasons. They feel nothing from the act. However, it triggers memories of their past life which they succor to manifest emotions and feelings from the past act into the present.

As for Garona, while I am pissed off Blizzard didn't kill her off, and is actually bringing the Mutt back to Life in Wrath, even though it makes absolutely no sense for Orgrim to have left her alive after he personally tortured her to get all the information about the Shadow Council before the Second War of Orcish Ascension, she was an inferior being. The only Half-Breeds that are honored are Mok'Nathal because they are as strong as an Ogre, but as smart and carries dominant features of an Orc.

[Necroxis]

As for Garona, while I am pissed off Blizzard didn't kill her off, and is actually bringing the Mutt back to Life in Wrath, even though it makes absolutely no sense for Orgrim to have left her alive after he personally tortured her to get all the information about the Shadow Council before the Second War of Orcish Ascension, she was an inferior being. The only Half-Breeds that are honored are Mok'Nathal because they are as strong as an Ogre, but as smart and carries dominant features of an Orc.

Whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa-whoa... Lois, this is not my batman glass.

Sorry that was the first thing that came to my mind because....what!?

They're bringing Garona back in WotLK? Where did you hear this? I know that Metzen said that whole schpeel about Garona possibly being Thrall's mate or whatever nonsense, but then I also heard that she was suppose to be in BC.

Hmm...do you have a link to a site saying that Garona will be in WotLK? I'd be interested in reading it.

Plus...I think the Mok'nathal are smarter than Orcs to be honest, or maybe Rexxar was just a special case.

[Tirralys]

They're bringing Garona back in WotLK? Where did you hear this? I know that Metzen said that whole schpeel about Garona possibly being Thrall's mate or whatever nonsense..

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

[Necroxis]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Bros before hos dawg.

[Anthek]

Garona is not making an appearance (so far) in WotLK. She will be in the last issue of the WoW comic.

[Necroxis]

Garona is not making an appearance (so far) in WotLK. She will be in the last issue of the WoW comic.

Yeah, THAT is what I heard, but I thought maybe I missed something.

You would think they would add her already, considering she was:

1.) Suppose to play a HUGE role in War 3, on par with Thrall's importance
2.) She was supposed to be (and was - in beta) in WoW, but then she was removed
3.) She was suppose to be in BC, but shes not.

Its not like Garona is on par with Kil'Jaeden or Sargeras, power-wise, why wouldn't they add her yet?

Very interesting

[Ke'juarez]

The only reason I can think of is that they're still not sure what the hell she is, if her background has been retconned as often as Raziel has said she has.

[Raziel]

Bros before hos dawg.

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/6918/121731075574qf0.png

[Akula]

I'm actually suprised by the amount of Dranei children that run around Shatt. I'm a dork and I love books of anysort, so of course I have read many of the WoW books regaurding the history of the horde, yada, yada.

In one fo the books, Orgrim and Durotan are saved by dranei and one of them (his name starts with an 'R' I think) gives them a bit of insight about the race. R explained to them that children amongst their kind is extremely rare. And even were they to see a child (which one just so happened to walk by shyly at the time), that the children were possibly hundreds of years older than the two young Orcs. So I have no clue how Alliance handles that subject with their squid-goat allies, but thats what I've read.

Orcs tend to mate for life from what I've read, they have cerimonies where once the Orc reaches marritable age, the males court the female. Now, you can't think of suitors as the lovely way we humans think of it as adorable if not plot worthy to kill suitors with charming smiles and sly, cunning, plots to get money. No orcs pretty much see a female that is nicely buffed up to an obscene muscular level, looks like she can hold her own in battle, will not get in the WAY during a battle, and obviously looks like she can create lovely healthy babies! One of the ways the Orc's court is by going on a hunt with their suitor and that right theres tells them if they work well together.

Trolls... The books I have read so far mention trolls perhaps once, in like, a single sentence. But my two cents about it is much like what a few others have said. They mate, the end. Trolls are not ones for keeping their partners, if anything they have multiple partners that they may have some favor for one more than the other. As the female troll's famouse flirt goes "When enraged or in heat, a female Troll can mate up to eighty times in one night, are you prepared?". This makes me think that trolls are not only sexual beings, but the heat of battle is what turns them on, or perhaps a heady arguement that one minute they are strangling someone by the throat, the next they'll be trying to get a bit of action in.

I DID read soemwhere, that because of a troll's regeneration, they are capable of having such violent and rough sex without the worry of perminantly injuring their partner. The tusks probubly play a big role in the injuries as well no doubt. 'Oops I punctured a lung!', "That's alright, it'll close up fast! Speaking of fast--" And then theres the babies.. hrmm.. Trolls don't live long lives because of their regen, but from offical RP books they still live maybe a little shorter than the average irl human life, about 76years of age is where a troll would be cripplingly old. Baby making would be a concern, but I think the baby making itself would be an accident and unintended, just an aftermath of going at it those eighty times in one night. And like someone posted (sorry forget who), the child wouldn't be brought up in a loving family enviroment, but a tribal one where the whole tribe raises the child.

And I apologize for lack of spelling or grammar, I am entirely too lazy to open up Word at this very moment.

[Necroxis]

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/6918/121731075574qf0.png

That is probably one of the best pictures...ever.