Ret Paladins

[Yatokth]

Nerfing one tree to make another look more attractive is bad design.

Also when it comes to PvP healing, you'd have to show me why a hybrid spec is always a bad thing. If you can get the job done with x/0/33(or 34?), why not take it?

I mean at the bottom line it's still more useful to ret paladins on total mana than base mana. 20% total mana = (20+x)% base mana.

Only slightly more useful to ret.

It causes virtually no change from total to base for ret. It DOES make it unreasonably powerful for specs other than ret - and thus it doesn't make sense in ret, will cause QQ that it shouldn't BE in Ret, and is genreally the same design that we had with the backasswards paladin trees of the past.

JotW is for ret paladins. Yes, there should be incentive to spec into other trees. The spell crit from Ret is enough for any holy to go in. JotW just compromises deep holy. It's the same bullshit going on with Arms in TBC - Early Fury was better than Deep Arms, and now Early Ret is better than Deep Holy.

THAT is bad design. Not saying all hybrid specs are bad, but they should not be the only option. With JotW at total mana, any holydin not going for it is a fool.

To put it at base mana is not a nerf - it is a fix to holy because Holy should want its own talents. And it doesn't hurt Ret in any noticeable degree.

Do eet.


Because bacon of light quite literally doubles your HPS and if you don't have it there is no way in hell I want to make up your heals because you were selfish =P

Bacon, while tasty, is extremely situational, and virtually useless in Arena.

Even in PvE, it isn't that amazing. Doesn't transfer overhealing, so it's unruly, and while it's nice for certain fights, you might as well go down and get sheath of light so you can throw MASSIVE HoTs on your tank, then pop over for an FoL on your other targets.

And like I said, bacon sucks in arena against anyone good. Nobody spreads their DPS like that.

[Averilyna]

/agree with Yat. In TBC, SL/SL was the primary Warlock PvP spec. Why? Because early affliction and early demo were better than top tier in either one (for PvP). It was stupid, and is probably a large part of the reason I don't play my lock much anymore. The primary high-lvl raid spec had the same problem. (0/21/40 - PvE Destro - Demonic Sacrifice + SB spam) I really wanted to be able to spec into Shadowfury and play around in PvP. But it would have massively hurt my dps. It's very frustrating to see these cool top tier talents that look like a lot of fun, but just aren't as good as early tier things in other trees. They're not as shiny/cool/fun most of the time, and I like things that are shiny!!

There should be a good reason to get the final tier of your tree. It should be outright better than stuff in the early part of other trees. The exception (and the reason hybrid specs can and should exist) is if you're trying to spec into more utility as opposed to "being better at a single specialization." I.e. - Hybrid Shockadins should have to sacrifice healing (and/or probably mana efficiency) in order to be able to pump out some Ret-type burst damage. If Warlocks want to spec Demonic Sacrifice along with some other tree, it should be to give them more versatility, not because it's a better dps increase than their top tier talents.

[Taknar]

Bad Yat! Bad! Taking quotes out of context! Keraph asked why he should take bacon for raid healing, not arena.

Of course there is no DPS spread in arena, which is why I said that I actually think it's okay for them to go hybrid spec. It's okay for deep holy to not be the best in all situations, so long as it is good for one. It's different than the deep arms thing because no matter who you were and what you wanted to do you didn't go beyond (and you can correct me on the exact number) 33 points into the tree you wanted to spec into.

I find it similar to priest's spirit buff. It is intended for Discipline, but it's often taken for Holy builds and many shadow raid DPS builds will take it come wrath too (Dispersion is too PvP oriented for a lot of people). I used to hate that, but I came to the realization that it allowed choice and moved me away from a cookie cutter spec. When choice is removed from the equation a talent tree becomes far less interesting and fun.

Also, you say that bacon in PvE doesn't transfer overheal, that's true. It doesn't change the fact that for every 1 health healed on a target your MT is healed for the same amount. And all in all for raid healing, paladins overheal percentage is really low cause they run in there with flash of light, heal a shit load over 1.5 seconds (and even faster come Wrath with 15% spell haste from talents alone), and beat all the other healers to the punch.

Edit: Just for fun I build a holy tree that allowed going 43 points in ret to get Sheath of Light.http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=00000000000000000000000000050342050300132 0000000000000000000000000000000000000
How many people want to PvP with a paladin healer that has no holy shock? (serious question)

[Yatokth]

Bad Yat! Bad! Taking quotes out of context! Keraph asked why he should take bacon for raid healing, not arena.

TOUCHE! I still think it's stupid that deep holy sucks for PvP. Well designed 51 pt talents should be viable in both aspects of the game imo. (You can make the argument for dispersion and deep freeze as being too 'PvP' - they could be better designed too I suppose.)


Edit: Just for fun I build a holy tree that allowed going 43 points in ret to get Sheath of Light.http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=00000000000000000000000000050342050300132 0000000000000000000000000000000000000
How many people want to PvP with a paladin healer that has no holy shock? (serious question)

Your link is broken, so I recreate:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=05230250223001230213220030005302050320122 0300000000000000000000000000000000000

I'm sure people would mess with talents in holy - but this is actually a fairly powerful PvP spec, but you're right, not for healing.

This is the norm:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=05230250223001230211000000005302050320132 0531020000000000000000000000000000000

Or something like it.

It's a shockadin build, both offensive and defensive.

"Yat, only 1 point in JotW!! How is that broken?" Because that 1 point is enough - they already get amazing returns on illumination, but that extra chance on their OFFENSIVE abilities to also restore mana (not so bad at base, but at total it's obscene) is crazy.

Now compare, for PvP:

JotW regen
Repentance
Extra instant FoLs from Art of War
Stun-removing HoFs
8% spell crit
9% extra damage on offensive abilities
Vindication
Pursuit of Justice
Eye for an Eye

To:

Extra spellpower
-50% mana on your abilities COOLDOWN (not sure if it burns a GCD, if it does, it's worse)
Chance for Cleanses to make your target have a chance to resist similar effects (admittedly good)
15% spell and melee haste on judgement
30 yard Judgements
Bacon (useless in high end arenas for the most part - not ALWAYS, but not that useful)

I can tell you any PvP-adin will go for the first choice.

And I believe that's a problem. Sort of like how Restokin >>> Full Resto if you could play it right.

I'm not against hybrid specs - I think they're cool - but should they be so clearly better in a large aspect of the game?

As for Sheath of Light, it IS very powerful in raids (where the fact that holy shock is instant isn't as much of a boon) although it'd take testing to see if epic HoTs > holy shock spam. I'm skeptical myself, but it could be.

[Averilyna]

I find it similar to priest's spirit buff. It is intended for Discipline, but it's often taken for Holy builds and many shadow raid DPS builds will take it come wrath too (Dispersion is too PvP oriented for a lot of people). I used to hate that, but I came to the realization that it allowed choice and moved me away from a cookie cutter spec. When choice is removed from the equation a talent tree becomes far less interesting and fun.

I'm not going to try to address all your points because I'm honestly not familiar enough with the Paladin trees to have a truly informed opinion. I will address the above quote though. There is a difference between the Divine Spirit vs. CoH/Healing Angel Talent thing and what Arms Warriors and Warlocks have dealt with.

Speccing Divine Spirit did reduce a priests total healing ability, and you lost access to a freakishly awesome AoE heal. However, speccing Divine Spirit would essentially reduce total amount of healing capability in exchange for better regen and a raid buff. This is a trade-off of raw healing ability for utility. I am perfectly ok with that. This is good choice. Bad choice is when going up to your top tier talent is not as good an option (for whatever you happen to be doing) than picking up something in a different tree. Period. Shadowfury was useless in raids. Endless Rage (while probably not as bad as everyone thought) was still not as good as Enrage/Flurry or whatever it was that the warriors were getting in Fury. Crappy or situationally useful top tier talents are, in my mind, the sign of a tree in need of fixing.

With the 3.0 changes, Blizz has been moving in the direction of allowing every tree to be effective in PvE and PvP without having to forego their 51 point talent. Holy Paladins are not quite there yet, and because of that, the smart ones are mostly speccing hybrid for PvP.

[Heidenreich]

I have a pretty simple solution for the Retribution Tree.

Swap Sheath of Light with Righteous Vengeance.
Swap Judgment of the Wise with Swift Retribution.

I think those two swaps there could fix A LOT of things.

[Yatokth]

I have a pretty simple solution for the Retribution Tree.

Swap Sheath of Light with Righteous Vengeance.
Swap Judgment of the Wise with Swift Retribution.

I think those two swaps there could fix A LOT of things.

I absolutely agree, though sheath of light doesn't need to be swapped - deep holy just needs a few buffs. SoL isn't really an issue, in retrospect Holy Shock probably owns its face.

But JotW with Swift Retribution would solve ALOT of problems.

[Taknar]

Crappy or situationally useful top tier talents are, in my mind, the sign of a tree in need of fixing.

The crappy talent sentiment I'll agree with, but they have come right out and said that there will be a lot of 51 point talents that are simply situational by design. And I happen to think that's okay. On that matter though, it's all personal opinion as to how situational talented abilities should be. It's also for another thread.

[Kaliera]

I imagine Beacon of Light will be absolutely amazing in 3v3 and 5v5 setups. One of the biggest weaknesses a paladin has is the fact that split DPS destroys their healing style, and they're incredibly susceptable to counterspell.

With Beacon of light and clever positioning, a Paladin can heal a target while out of line of sight and still land that clutch Holy Light on the warrior flailing away in the midst of the arena.

The fact that it's a magic effect is a detriment as it's dispellable, but it's far from useless.

[Heidenreich]

It's Bacon of Light....OMG!!!

[Averilyna]

The crappy talent sentiment I'll agree with, but they have come right out and said that there will be a lot of 51 point talents that are simply situational by design. And I happen to think that's okay. On that matter though, it's all personal opinion as to how situational talented abilities should be. It's also for another thread.

Ah, ok. :-/ And yes, my personal opinion + your personal opinion = a couple opinions on design philosophy, neither of which has any real effect on the devs.

Back to the issue. Having looked at the paladin trees a bit more closely, I think that the JotW swap idea is a pretty good one. I could even see moving it up, and maybe moving repentance to a lower tier, possibly giving Deep Holy access to a CC other than HoJ. Thought on that?

As for Bacon, has anyone thought about/suggested adding a dispell resistance to it (similar to Pain Suppression)?

[Naheal]

I imagine Beacon of Light will be absolutely amazing in 3v3 and 5v5 setups. One of the biggest weaknesses a paladin has is the fact that split DPS destroys their healing style, and they're incredibly susceptable to counterspell.

With Beacon of light and clever positioning, a Paladin can heal a target while out of line of sight and still land that clutch Holy Light on the warrior flailing away in the midst of the arena.

The fact that it's a magic effect is a detriment as it's dispellable, but it's far from useless.

Beacon of Light on a FC and start healing everyone else. Very effective in BGs.

Also, in PvE, stick a beacon of Light on one tank and focus on another. One thing I haven't tested yet though is if the beacon gets the individual heals that everyone would get from HL if I had the glyph...

[Taknar]

Beacon of Light on a FC and start healing everyone else. Very effective in BGs.

Also, in PvE, stick a beacon of Light on one tank and focus on another. One thing I haven't tested yet though is if the beacon gets the individual heals that everyone would get from HL if I had the glyph...

Reports are that this is the case.

Anyone have any feedback from live with the 15% base mana change? Looking at BGs and Arena specifically. Please note whether or not you had a healer to replace your lost health.

[Keraph]

I'll also note that it costs a fuckton of mana for it's 1 minute duration, and again is really only situational. It is indeed a handy skill, but I could REALLY see myself without it doing fine. It really is that either deep Holy is not appealing enough, or early-mind ret is just TOO appealing. I've done the raiding post-patch, I know how things are going, and I'm still not entirely convinced I'm better off the way I am.

[Yatokth]

Next up, the 20% didnt go through. I'm returning 443 of 5,553 mana. Which is 15%.

I correct myself:

It isn't on the beta: Some dickhead bumped a thread from a month before before JotW was even 33% base mana.

Pretty clever at least.

[Naheal]

Reports are that this is the case.

Anyone have any feedback from live with the 15% base mana change? Looking at BGs and Arena specifically. Please note whether or not you had a healer to replace your lost health.

It looks like it's 15% right now. I'm able to keep mana if I don't go all out right now, but the moment I start dropping concecrates or pushing healing buttons, my mana drops.

This is an issue right now, but can easily be remedied with a 15/5/51 spec.

[Skaadvik]

Okay, so I did Hyjal (for the first time, yay) this weekend, and there was a Healing pally in there specced mostly ret. Like, he was ret down to Sheath of Light and the haste buff talent for ret aura. I totally understand the reasoning behind it, but it's pretty ludicrous that Ret is so good that healers are going into it OVER Holy.

Also, Beacon of Light, while cool, isn't what I expect from my 51-point talent. It's extremely situational, I'll use it no more than 2 or 3 times in an average raid, and usually only 1 of those times was it actually necessary. usually when I use it, I'm just screwing around having fun healing two different targets for 12k in less than a second. On that note, the new spell haste talents are a welcome addition to Holy.

[Naheal]

I totally understand the reasoning behind it, but it's pretty ludicrous that Ret is so good that healers are going into it OVER Holy.


I'll agree with this statement. I'll also point out that it's beginning to seem that those of us who are speccing far enough down into ret to pick up Sheath of Light and Art of War are appearing to be going down a path similar to that of a Shockadin (Sheathadin's the term being coined right now).

[Muatah]

I think you all who talk about rarely using Beacon of Light are crazy.

T5/T6 is filled to the brim with "Everyone in the raid is taking damage" fights. Beacon the MT and go to town.

Healing two people at once in BGs with one spell? Yes, please.

[Heidenreich]

15% Base Mana Regen is FINE in a Raid environment. Yes, not all changes (cause I'm not calling them nerfs anymore) haven't been made yet, but last night in Sunwell I had no mana issues what so ever.

I had to pull Consecration from my rotation maybe 10% of the time for the entire night, but using Judgment of Wisdom with Seal of the Martyr left me with NO MANA ISSUES!

By the way I'm pissy after last night! 2,999 DPS on Brut. No Kings or LotP! I should be doing over 3k damnit! Well at least til the rest of my changes are made.

[Roth'rili]

*pokes his head in thread after having had respected Holy*

I honestly like the Beacon of Light ability it is a mana whore but in BGs slapping it on my self while I go around healing other people is fantastic if I am getting put under fire. It doesn't help still being silenced and interupted and the spell haste is meh at best I personally think, since there are people out there with trigger happy kicks no amount of spell haste will stop them. But I have had good experiences with it after making myself a beacon in a AB defense of the BS while a ret pally and another were beating on me I was capable of keeping people up around me and myself at the same time. I like it and I can definitely find more uses for it. Also I thought infuse of light was a lot stronger then it was, wasn't it supose to make flash instant and also decrease holy light speed? idk Well thats it for me and my .02 on that part.

*runs off again into hiding*

[Keraph]

I think you all who talk about rarely using Beacon of Light are crazy.

T5/T6 is filled to the brim with "Everyone in the raid is taking damage" fights. Beacon the MT and go to town.

Healing two people at once in BGs with one spell? Yes, please.

This is true, but it's hardly healer intensive without Beacon. I've never had problems on t5/t6 content pre-patch. It's handy, but I can pretty much heal just as well without it. But turn my Holy Light and Flash of Light into HoTs as well? Thank ye kindly.

Now, I'm still holy. I haven't actually specced ret for my healing, because in truth it makes me feel a wee bit dirty. For me, the issue is, a paladin planning to heal should be able to immediatey go "Oh, duh, I'll spec Holy, cause that's the healing tree." There shouldn't even be discussion and theorycrafting about being an on-par raid healer in the DPS tree (which of course also adds the boon of DPS to the mix)

[Naheal]

This is true, but it's hardly healer intensive without Beacon. I've never had problems on t5/t6 content pre-patch. It's handy, but I can pretty much heal just as well without it. But turn my Holy Light and Flash of Light into HoTs as well? Thank ye kindly.

Now, I'm still holy. I haven't actually specced ret for my healing, because in truth it makes me feel a wee bit dirty. For me, the issue is, a paladin planning to heal should be able to immediatey go "Oh, duh, I'll spec Holy, cause that's the healing tree." There shouldn't even be discussion and theorycrafting about being an on-par raid healer in the DPS tree (which of course also adds the boon of DPS to the mix)

This is like the arguement of "Shockadins being DPS". They never were. They were healers with the ability to deal a bit of damage.

The Sheathadin spec now is more along the lines of a DPSer with a heightened ability to heal.

[Taknar]

This is true, but it's hardly healer intensive without Beacon. I've never had problems on t5/t6 content pre-patch.

This used to be the argument against picking up Circle of Healing, and we all know how that turned out. I'm not saying they are going to start tailoring fights around having beacon, but chances are it will become less situational than you're currently seeing.

[Keraph]

I hope so, because right now it's not half as useful as people keep saying it is. I'm not denying it's applications, I'm just saying that for my talent points, I have the opportunity to either heal better and more efficiently, or bring some damage into the mix for soloing and when the extra healing is not needed. So it's more a lack of motivation towards Bacon, and by connection deep holy.

[Skaadvik]

Well, I haven't played done the "sheathadin" thing yet, but I think that shockadin as a playstyle is entirely and completely dead. The changes to how seals work totally nerfed the burst potential, and full holy in holy gear gives you the spellpower to have chunky shock crits anyway. Also, I wouldn't say it's like shockadin except that it's another kinda "fringe" hybrid spec for Paladins. Shockadin's thing was good heals and insane ridiculous unnecessarily large burst, which doesn't seem like the direction this spec takes at all. All that said... Sheath spec IS interesting.

[Tirralys]

Ha! You guys haven't been in the heroic five-mans I've been healing, obviously...freaking clothies always want to steal all the aggros! Beacon of Light I used through about 70% of the instance, despite the mana cost.

What I find more useless is the talents that come before that, that give you more healing or haste when you do judgements on enemies. Those are completely useless - unless it's only your focus getting nailed for damage. Most raids and heroics, I'm too busy healing everyone to stop and go "You know, i'm going to go waste two-one second global cooldowns to seal and judgement this mob so I get faster heals!" ...not going to happen.

I might spec up to beacon of light again next time I have to respec, but I'll be taking the other talents that are useless (lowering disease/curse time, lowering fear duration, etc) that are passive, rather then use the judgement talents.

Oh, and on the note that 'Ret pallies damage should be right around Enhancement shaman damage' - the problem with that is that pallies wear plate, shaman only wear mail. Pallies should be just under enhancement, but have more survivability.

[Yatokth]

Oh, and on the note that 'Ret pallies damage should be right around Enhancement shaman damage' - the problem with that is that pallies wear plate, shaman only wear mail. Pallies should be just under enhancement, but have more survivability.

PLATE ARMOR =! SURVIVABILITY

Biggest misconception EVER. Yes, it helps against a few classes in the game (impacts warriors and rogues the most) but for the most part armor doesn't fucking matter because you're being pelted by a mage's fireball or eaten by a warlock's DoTs, which don't give a flying dickshit about armor.

Also, plate armor is not an excuse to do less damage.

[Roth'rili]

PLATE ARMOR =! SURVIVABILITY

Biggest misconception EVER. Yes, it helps against a few classes in the game (impacts warriors and rogues the most) but for the most part armor doesn't fucking matter because you're being pelted by a mage's fireball or eaten by a warlock's DoTs, which don't give a flying dickshit about armor.

Also, plate armor is not an excuse to do less damage.

This I heard the excuse of plate armor for a long time specially with pvp healing wear priests and other healers are like "Give me your plate armor then!" I would just *snickers* "Here you go if you want it trade you for your mobility and HoTs," "Ok!" *snickers more* "suckers."

I hate plate armor I've seen disc priests take more then me and I got to say that is some leet cloth then. Really out of the 9 classes currently plate armor only helps against warriors, rogues and feral druids, with ret pallies and enchance shammies to a extend only cause they have magic dmg attacks in their rotations to bypass armor. Maybe in WotLK might mitigate some Blood DKs but Frost and Unholy will be bypassing it with frost and shadow dmg. It makes me a sad panda

[Taknar]

What I find more useless is the talents that come before that, that give you more healing or haste when you do judgements on enemies. Those are completely useless - unless it's only your focus getting nailed for damage. Most raids and heroics, I'm too busy healing everyone to stop and go "You know, i'm going to go waste two-one second global cooldowns to seal and judgement this mob so I get faster heals!" ...not going to happen.

Two things:

2 gcds in 1 minute to give you 15% haste. Assuming you are spamming 1.5 second spells, and you have 60-3 seconds to do it in (assuming you don't let the haste fall off) you can cast 44 FoL spells. Without the haste, you can cast in 60 seconds (so not putting up the seal and judge) exactly 40 FoL spells. So, not hasting for any fight that is a minute or longer is actually hurting your output.

Second, with the Glyph of Seal of Light, just having the damn seal up increases your output by 5%. You can't possibly tell me that's not worth it!

[Tirralys]

PLATE ARMOR =! SURVIVABILITY

Biggest misconception EVER. Yes, it helps against a few classes in the game (impacts warriors and rogues the most) but for the most part armor doesn't fucking matter because you're being pelted by a mage's fireball or eaten by a warlock's DoTs, which don't give a flying dickshit about armor.

Also, plate armor is not an excuse to do less damage.

Maybe Plate armor doesn't, but a bubble that gives you 100% immunity does. Instant Flash heals when you crit melee does. Getting a HoT from critting does. Having spells that automatically unensnare you does. Not to mention the fun trinkets you can get, the two stuns that last for ungodly amounts of time, oh, and on top of all that, being able to do insane amounts of damage by putting on a two-hander, being able to do double damage with it, and be able to swing it instantly twice in a row, and kill most other players within mere seconds.

No, not overpowered at all.

Take the shaman. Yes they can do damage. They can heal themselves too! But as an enhancement shaman, you get ZERO talents in the enhancement tree to improve your healing, get HoTs, or anything of the sort. Do they get a bubble? No, the closest thing they get is 30% reduced damage for 15 seconds. And, if you look at the enhancement tree really good, you'll notice there are a hell of a lot of talents you need to take to buff up your damage.

Paladins only need so many, and they get +healing and healing to the entire party to boot.

Ret Paladins = Enhancement Shamans? Fuck no. Paladins have more survivability then shamans. So, why should they also get the same damage, again? Oh, and did we mention that Ret Paladins can heal JUST AS WELL IF NOT BETTER then holy paladins? What the splork?

Over. Powered.


Two things:

2 gcds in 1 minute to give you 15% haste. Assuming you are spamming 1.5 second spells, and you have 60-3 seconds to do it in (assuming you don't let the haste fall off) you can cast 44 FoL spells. Without the haste, you can cast in 60 seconds (so not putting up the seal and judge) exactly 40 FoL spells. So, not hasting for any fight that is a minute or longer is actually hurting your output.

Second, with the Glyph of Seal of Light, just having the damn seal up increases your output by 5%. You can't possibly tell me that's not worth it!

Yeah, maybe I'm just not into hitting AND healing at the same time. I mean, if I were Retribution or Shadow and healing the party by doing damage? That's a bit easier for me to handle, personally. But the hitting people just to get mana and increased speed on heals seems a bit too much for me. I'll probably just keep with protection, and see if I can get Ela'Jinn up to 80 eventually. Priests are my kind of healer >_>

[Yatokth]

Maybe Plate armor doesn't, but a bubble that gives you 100% immunity does. Instant Flash heals when you crit melee does. Getting a HoT from critting does. Having spells that automatically unensnare you does. Not to mention the fun trinkets you can get, the two stuns that last for ungodly amounts of time, oh, and on top of all that, being able to do insane amounts of damage by putting on a two-hander, being able to do double damage with it, and be able to swing it instantly twice in a row, and kill most other players within mere seconds.

No, not overpowered at all.

Take the shaman. Yes they can do damage. They can heal themselves too! But as an enhancement shaman, you get ZERO talents in the enhancement tree to improve your healing, get HoTs, or anything of the sort. Do they get a bubble? No, the closest thing they get is 30% reduced damage for 15 seconds. And, if you look at the enhancement tree really good, you'll notice there are a hell of a lot of talents you need to take to buff up your damage.

Paladins only need so many, and they get +healing and healing to the entire party to boot.

Ret Paladins = Enhancement Shamans? Fuck no. Paladins have more survivability then shamans. So, why should they also get the same damage, again? Oh, and did we mention that Ret Paladins can heal JUST AS WELL IF NOT BETTER then holy paladins? What the splork?

Over. Powered.

I'm not arguing that the combination of CC, Defensive, and Offensive burst capabilities MADE them overpowered, but keep in mind the new paradigm:

With Spell Power, hybrids CAN clutch heal, but at the cost of mana which could be used for other things (See: Nerf to JotW, Enhancement Shamans) and yes, Paladins have bubble and HoF, but Shamans have Ghost Wolf, a snare (Frost Shock), an extremely potent group buff for melee (bloodlust), and totems. They're more on the offensive side, but lack the defensive capabilities. Their BASE damage should be nearly the same, but in a spike, yeah, enhancement shamans will deal more damage - which is why they nerfed pally burst - at the point it WAS at, it was overpowered.

Once all the changes go through? They'll be fine. Though they do need to buff JotW a bit so they're not stuck only using damaging abilities, and being unable to use any utility due to no mana - and being uber susceptible to mana burns.

[Tirralys]

I'm not arguing that the combination of CC, Defensive, and Offensive burst capabilities MADE them overpowered, but keep in mind the new paradigm:

With Spell Power, hybrids CAN clutch heal, but at the cost of mana which could be used for other things (See: Nerf to JotW, Enhancement Shamans) and yes, Paladins have bubble and HoF, but Shamans have Ghost Wolf, a snare (Frost Shock), an extremely potent group buff for melee (bloodlust), and totems. They're more on the offensive side, but lack the defensive capabilities. Their BASE damage should be nearly the same, but in a spike, yeah, enhancement shamans will deal more damage - which is why they nerfed pally burst - at the point it WAS at, it was overpowered.

Once all the changes go through? They'll be fine. Though they do need to buff JotW a bit so they're not stuck only using damaging abilities, and being unable to use any utility due to no mana - and being uber susceptible to mana burns.

I'm not sure it really will be fine...I still like Reg's idea that if you pick up Divine Storm you lose your Divine Shield. It makes sense to me.

And just to note, I never liked Retribution. >_>

[Yatokth]

I'm not sure it really will be fine...I still like Reg's idea that if you pick up Divine Storm you lose your Divine Shield. It makes sense to me.

And just to note, I never liked Retribution. >_>

Eh, no.

They need that immunity - what made it overpowered was that it could be used to just kill kill kill with no cost at that epic burst scale - with that burst scale gone, it just becomes a powerful tool, like any other classes' powerful tools, only different.

WTF UNIQUENESS HAX.

Plus it's really good to get heals off - I think any class could take a retadin without its bubble. (once the damage is nerfed)

[Anorah]

I'm not sure it really will be fine...I still like Reg's idea that if you pick up Divine Storm you lose your Divine Shield. It makes sense to me.

And just to note, I never liked Retribution. >_>

That is the worst idea I have -ever- heard in the history of how to tweak paladins.

Throughout Paladin history the bubble has been absolutely -necessary- to survive in pvp. We're squishier than Warriors without it ffs. Removing the divine shield would remove -any- current real viability we have in PvP.

Just because you don't like a spec doesn't mean it's crap, or that other people don't enjoy it, or that it can't/shouldn't be viable in situations.

Was the burst too much? Hell yeah. Does that mean we should be nerfed to the point of uselessness? F*** no. -I- still want to have a spec that can be reckoned with. -I- don't want to put on a skirt and heal. And -I- won't HIDE behind a shield (That line from Blizzard still makes me laugh. Also, those references are for humor only.

<Villayna snipped some minor personal attacks>

[Naheal]

As a note, I rolled a paladin.

Not a cleric.

Not a tankadin.

Not a Retadin.

I want to see all of my trees functional

[Anorah]

As a note, I rolled a paladin.

Not a cleric.

Not a tankadin.

Not a Retadin.

I want to see all of my trees functional

Agree. Just because I prefer ret doesn't mean ANY spec should be useless.

[Szordrin]

I like toast.


And healing.

[Tirralys]

<Villayna snipped>

I'll answer your post to the best of my extent.

It's not ignorance - far from it. I've tried being retribution before. Looking at the new skill tree makes me want to vomit. I've played a paladin for approximately 70&#37; of my wow career (the first character I got to 60 was a human paladin, then we made the switch to TN, and when TBC came out I did paladin -again-) and I've always preferred Protection to holy or Retribution. I've played holy plenty of times too, hell I've been healing for the past two days in raids and heroics, because people needed me to switch and I was more then happy to oblige. I go where people need me.

As for Retribution, the only way it should be viable is in the leveling department. I personally leveled straight prot, but enough about me. It does better damage then protection and holy (probably combined now) but in turn they should be squishier, just like a Fury/arms spec is squishier then a protection spec.

Do fury/arms retain their ability to shield wall? Fuck no, they get to use retaliation and suck it up if they die too quick. They also don't get HEALS, which is why paladins are squishier (mitigation and health wise) because they have a MANA bar and can HEAL themselves. I'm caps locking just to highlight the biggest parts of what I said. Fury/arms/prot warriors CAN NOT heal themselves in 1.5 seconds (or instant if you crit!), which is why they are less squishy. The most they have is bandages, if I'm not mistaken (Just looked it up and remembered - arms has Second Wind and Fury gets Bloodlust, niether of which heal for anywhere near what a paladin can bust out).

Taking away Divine Shield is not ignorant, in fact, it's not even enough. If you take away Divine Shield, you still have Divine Protection, which is equal to a Prot Warrior's Shield wall (and Divine Protection can be used without a shield!).

Retribution. Does. Not. Deserve. As. Much. Damage. They have way more survivability then Arms/Fury Warriors and Enhancement Shaman. Paladins =/= Warriors =/= Shaman =/= Rogues =/= Mages.

The way that Paladins were set up pre-TBC and pre-hordegetspaladinsandalliesgetshaman was that Shaman were offensive, as stated by Yatokth, and Pallies were more defensive. Where Shaman did not have the survivability of a paladin, they had more damage to kill things faster before they died. Where Paladins had less damage then shaman, they had more survivability thus they could take a beating over a greater amount of time and thus defeat stronger opponents and not have to worry about dying (I've solo'd elites that were meant for 2-3 players, it took a hell of a long time but I did it. I also killed mobs that were RED to me in level, and I sat there and thought -THAT- was overpowered - Ret paladins now? Are helluva overpowered).

But ever since WoW was invented (practically) allies and horde have been crying that 'their class' didn't get enough of the 'other's class' until finally Blizzard broke down to the whining and went 'ok, paladins get super damage now' while shaman pretty much got nothing else in the survivability department (if I'm not mistaken). Personally, I think they should have given Shaman Cyclone as druids have so many different survivability tactics already, but I digress.

So now, Paladins retained the survivability of 'old game' and have damage of 'new game' making them imbalanced. Though, with hunters and druids being over powered (for the longest time) and having not changed, I guess I can't expect for the same to happen to the newly overbuffed Ret paladins.

The current changes to paladins to 'nerf' the ret paladins hurts all cases of paladins, and doesn't do much for Ret paladins damage. Rather then nerfing things that affect all paladins, just give them their damage, but take away their 100% bubble. Fair trade in my educated opinion. You get your 'new game' damage, and we (non ret pallies/any other class) get the ability to actually kill you. before you auto kill us in a few seconds, while 100% immune to anything we do.

Edit - But you still get Lay on Hands for insta-full health. Oh, and Divine Protection for 50% Less damage taken. And Holy Light. And Flash of Light. And the ability to get instant heals on crit. And the ability to get HoT's on crit. And the ability to auto get out of snares and roots. And the ability to ... well, I think you get my point. You can HAVE YOUR DAMAGE. Just give me MY SHIELD back. You don't need it.

Edit 2 - Ret paladins wouldn't be useless without their 100% bubble, or having their bubble and not doing as much damage. It's a balancing game. In fact, if I had the choice, I would take away Ret's HoT and give it to holy, because that's where it belongs.

<Villayna snipped some minor personal attacks>

[NotMaithanet]

<snipped by Villayna>

I have no idea what the Hell this is even about, but err.... lol?

Sad, sad day when a Paladin QQ's about buffs to their own class.

[Tirralys]

I have no idea what the Hell this is even about, but err.... lol?

Sad, sad day when a Paladin QQ's about buffs to their own class.

Hey, nothing wrong with buffs to your class a whole, but when a ret paladin can single-handedly beat down you and an elemental shaman without breaking a sweat...it doesn't take a genius to figure out something doesn't add up.

[Thelsuo]

I admit Retribution paladins are a challenge, at least for me as a shaman. Yes in some cases they seem OP (I mean I have mostly the blue PVP set and 275 resil on Rashok.) But class disparities aside the class needed something, anything for a positive change. In the history of the warcraft universe what were paladins? They were not healbots or tanks in any sense of lore.

They were warriors, warriors imbued with the light, I think the purest tree for the paladin class is Retribution. They should kill, they should be good at killing because at the heart, that is what their role in military society was. Holy leaders that raped face.

Translate that to Wow, I used to duel ret pallies pre-BC naked on my hunter and win. Not to say they were bad or I was ZOMGZ NUDIE LEETSAWZ, but the class had issues. It's about time they were improved, yes it's a challenge if you don't know how to fight one, most people are used to the "LOL RETZ" they run it like a braindead fungus and get spanked rather than use tactics.

The idea to remove divine shield for ret or make it a spec type spell is along the lines of putting a screen door on a submarine. It seems like a good idea till you actually think about it. Geared ret pallies that are good at their class still loose, I was watching duels yesterday with an exceptionally well played ret pally and they won/lost about the same. Even with bubble they are easily kitable, and in a mass PVP environment are no harder to take down that before, now people just cannot run face first and expect to go toe to toe with them.

They've been buffed to output impressive damage like a geared warrior can, so you cannot expect to fight them thinking they are a melee hunter. What do you do when you fight a full S3 war? Do you stand there and cast/attack/dance? No you run, you run and kite, you run and think on your feet to avoid that S3 weapon cleaving your skull.

I'm all for ret buff/tweaks and improving the spec. Not because it benefits me or my friends, but because people derive fun from it. Far be it from me to cry "nerfstick plox" if i'm inconvienenced in my murderous rampaging that I actually need to think in a PVP situation against a ret pally now rather than faceroll.

Ret has been buffed to make you think about your strat, nothing more. Yes they needed some tweaking, they recieved nerfs and I think are in a good 1-1 state now, they can't auto win against all classes in equal gear and equal skill.

That's what PVP should be like. Play the spec you want and make it work for you.

On a side note, I can't believe there are pallies in this thread and even on the WoW forums that are calling nerfs for fellow paladins? What kind of "throw em under the bus" classmates are you?

-Thel

[NotMaithanet]

Hey, nothing wrong with buffs to your class a whole, but when a ret paladin can single-handedly beat down you and an elemental shaman without breaking a sweat...it doesn't take a genius to figure out something doesn't add up.

Except for when you propose absolutely God awful ideas.

[Muatah]

when a ret paladin can single-handedly beat down you and an elemental shaman without breaking a sweat...it doesn't take a genius to figure out something doesn't add up.

The amount of variables in PvP are extreme.

I've lost count of the times I have beaten two people at a time on my Hunter. I've also lost count of the times I have lost when I shouldn't have.

To say "One guy beat two of us easy!" truly doesn't mean much of anything.

[Anorah]

<Villayna snipped>

Wasn't a personal attack, I thought the suggestion was bad. *shrug* you happened to agree with it, also shrug. Sorry if it was received that way.


It's not ignorance - far from it. I've tried being retribution before. Looking at the new skill tree makes me want to vomit. I've played a paladin for approximately 70&#37; of my wow career (the first character I got to 60 was a human paladin, then we made the switch to TN, and when TBC came out I did paladin -again-) and I've always preferred Protection to holy or Retribution. I've played holy plenty of times too, hell I've been healing for the past two days in raids and heroics, because people needed me to switch and I was more then happy to oblige. I go where people need me.

You don't like ret, that's fine. I've played all three specs of Paladin extensively, they each have their own unique flavor. If it's not ignorance, than it's pure and simple bias. Something that also affects judgment.


As for Retribution, the only way it should be viable is in the leveling department. I personally leveled straight prot, but enough about me. It does better damage then protection and holy (probably combined now) but in turn they should be squishier, just like a Fury/arms spec is squishier then a protection spec.

The fact that you feel an entire spec should only have one, limited use and be completely neglected at end game is.. it baffles me. It really does. It just further leads me to believe that you hate ret to the point that you don't even care if other people don't. And they are squishier than prot, I haven't seen a Ret paladin tank full groups of players or heal through 5 people's damage like I've seen prot/holy. And yes, we have a bubble that enables us to last JUST a touch longer. But so do the other specs of Paladin's so saying that we can use it to 'tank' when you can as well? Moot point.


Do fury/arms retain their ability to shield wall? Fuck no, they get to use retaliation and suck it up if they die too quick. They also don't get HEALS, which is why paladins are squishier (mitigation and health wise) because they have a MANA bar and can HEAL themselves. I'm caps locking just to highlight the biggest parts of what I said. Fury/arms/prot warriors CAN NOT heal themselves in 1.5 seconds (or instant if you crit!), which is why they are less squishy. The most they have is bandages, if I'm not mistaken (Just looked it up and remembered - arms has Second Wind and Fury gets Bloodlust, niether of which heal for anywhere near what a paladin can bust out).

We still can't outheal a dedicated healer, we can heal enough to mitigate huge burst on us for a -bit- (and I do mean that in a very small amount), but the bubble is still extremely necessary. I've also seen many arms warriors utilise shield wall these days AS WELL AS retal. Sure, we can heal ourselves. We're Paladins.


Taking away Divine Shield is not ignorant, in fact, it's not even enough. If you take away Divine Shield, you still have Divine Protection, which is equal to a Prot Warrior's Shield wall (and Divine Protection can be used without a shield!).

Divine protection is not = to shield wall. Shield wall cannot be dispelled, nor does it cause any manner of forebearance effect, to my knowledge. I'll let a warrior comment further on this.


Retribution. Does. Not. Deserve. As. Much. Damage. They have way more survivability then Arms/Fury Warriors and Enhancement Shaman. Paladins =/= Warriors =/= Shaman =/= Rogues =/= Mages.

Your opinion. Emphasis on opinion. We 'deserve' damage as the damage tree.


The way that Paladins were set up pre-TBC and pre-hordegetspaladinsandalliesgetshaman was that Shaman were offensive, as stated by Yatokth, and Pallies were more defensive. Where Shaman did not have the survivability of a paladin, they had more damage to kill things faster before they died. Where Paladins had less damage then shaman, they had more survivability thus they could take a beating over a greater amount of time and thus defeat stronger opponents and not have to worry about dying (I've solo'd elites that were meant for 2-3 players, it took a hell of a long time but I did it. I also killed mobs that were RED to me in level, and I sat there and thought -THAT- was overpowered - Ret paladins now? Are helluva overpowered).

They had too much burst, that has been scaled back and will be moreso. If you're implying that retribution was overpowered before this latest buff/nerf? I'm just going to laugh. It deserves damage.


But ever since WoW was invented (practically) allies and horde have been crying that 'their class' didn't get enough of the 'other's class' until finally Blizzard broke down to the whining and went 'ok, paladins get super damage now' while shaman pretty much got nothing else in the survivability department (if I'm not mistaken). Personally, I think they should have given Shaman Cyclone as druids have so many different survivability tactics already, but I digress.

Nerf cyclone.


So now, Paladins retained the survivability of 'old game' and have damage of 'new game' making them imbalanced. Though, with hunters and druids being over powered (for the longest time) and having not changed, I guess I can't expect for the same to happen to the newly overbuffed Ret paladins.

Nerf cyclone.


The current changes to paladins to 'nerf' the ret paladins hurts all cases of paladins, and doesn't do much for Ret paladins damage. Rather then nerfing things that affect all paladins, just give them their damage, but take away their 100% bubble. Fair trade in my educated opinion. You get your 'new game' damage, and we (non ret pallies/any other class) get the ability to actually kill you. before you auto kill us in a few seconds, while 100% immune to anything we do.

So.. you want our damage decreased AND our bubble taken away. <Villayna snipped some minor personal attacks>


Edit - But you still get Lay on Hands for insta-full health. Oh, and Divine Protection for 50% Less damage taken. And Holy Light. And Flash of Light. And the ability to get instant heals on crit. And the ability to get HoT's on crit. And the ability to auto get out of snares and roots. And the ability to ... well, I think you get my point. You can HAVE YOUR DAMAGE. Just give me MY SHIELD back. You don't need it.

We can auto get out of snares and roots? I thought we had to cast a spell that could be stolen/dispelled/purged. Also, we don't get lay on hands in Arena's. Should we just be forgotten in that area completely?


Edit 2 - Ret paladins wouldn't be useless without their 100% bubble, or having their bubble and not doing as much damage. It's a balancing game. In fact, if I had the choice, I would take away Ret's HoT and give it to holy, because that's where it belongs.

I'm thankful you don't get to make that choice. For the record, I am not trying to insult you. I'm sorry if I have. In closing, retribution -deserves- to be it's own viable tree. Just as much as holy or protection. Your bias is noted.

[Tirralys]

Well, Reg just said something I completely agree with as I'm discussing your responses to my thread. Not to throw his name out there, but he did say it.

You're a cannon now. Great. Now accept that you cannot ALSO be a fortress.

The idea is very sound and not awful in the least. If you all want to keep your retribution overpowered so you can go easy mode, go for it. Hunters did it. Druids did it. Paladins were my sanctuary, and now its become less and less of that.

I will agree with one point, Ret paladins were immensly underpowered before. That's true. A buff to their power was necessary. But this was too much. They do damage as good as an enhancement shaman. They can heal as good as a holy paladin. They heal the party when they attack. And they can go 100&#37; immune.

It's ridiculous.

You can say that I'm throwing my 'classmates' under the bus, but they are not classmates of mine, and besides that, many 'classmates' I've met I would throw under a bus without the NERF NEEDING TO HAPPEN.

I've played 80% of all available races and classes up to 40. I am an alt whore. I look at it from an overview perspective, not 'oh another paladin lolz I'm gonna fuck up his fun!'. Ret is overpowered. Simple as that. Taking away their 'fortress' ability will even the playing ground. And you can still be a small castle to boot!

But, I think I've stated my points clearly enough, and I'm not going to get sucked into 'your idea sucks lol your dumb lol' because you refuse to see how great of a change this is. AND I'M A PALADIN -SAYING- THAT NERF IS A GREAT CHANGE!

I said my two cents, nothing else to say as it's getting inflammatory.

Edit - she posted at the same time, doh!

The only thing I will respond to is this:

So.. you want our damage decreased AND our bubble taken away.

But just to re-iterate, you can have the damage, but not the bubble, or you can have the bubble, and not as much damage. Cannon. Or Fortress.

Edit 2 - oh, and the hand of freedom thing? You Hand of Freedom when you're ensnared to get out, the same 1 second cooldown it takes to use a trinket. It can be spellstolen? So what? You just got a free trinket!

<Villayna snipped some MAJOR personal attacks>

[Skaadvik]

Two things:

2 gcds in 1 minute to give you 15% haste. Assuming you are spamming 1.5 second spells, and you have 60-3 seconds to do it in (assuming you don't let the haste fall off) you can cast 44 FoL spells. Without the haste, you can cast in 60 seconds (so not putting up the seal and judge) exactly 40 FoL spells. So, not hasting for any fight that is a minute or longer is actually hurting your output.

Second, with the Glyph of Seal of Light, just having the damn seal up increases your output by 5%. You can't possibly tell me that's not worth it!

I love the haste talents. Keep the seal up cause it lasts two minutes, and use helpful judgements like Light (which is further enhanced by the t5 set bonus and said glyph). It also gives an added bonus to putting Judgement of Justice on people in PvP (which any good Paladin should be putting on EVERY MFER HE SEES in PvP).

[Thelsuo]

TirralysI don't think people are ganging up on you bud. You can't expect players to look at your suggestions and all of them to agree. With the manners of suggestions, attitude, and demeaming nature of your comments you can't expect to get positive feedback or engage in a healthy discussion. So there's no need to martyr yourself.

You had an idea, it was not well recieved, either preach to the devil or grab your bible and head home.

Leveling alts to 40, is not gaining an ounce of perspective for how they function at 70 at this point in the game.

"But just to re-iterate, you can have the damage, but not the bubble, or you can have the bubble, and not as much damage. Cannon. Or Fortress."

I'm going to ask, have you ever PVP'd? Also going to ask is your resilience under 150? Or are you taking nerdrage from other forums to surmise your opinions from? Bubble is a class pillar for PVP as a paladin, regardless of spec. Like totems are to shamans, stances to warriors, aspects to hunters, stuns to rogue. It's a tool, to build your own victory from.

If I have'nt seen so many bad pallies using bubble/stuns and still lose to skilled players it's possible i'd agree with you. But i've seen GOOD ret pallies lose to similarly geared opponents.

When I say good, I'm not talking about knowing spells, i'm talking same wavelength/teamplayers that know their shit in teams and solo. And know other classes shit beyond what I can even begin to comprehend. I've seen these pallies lose.

-Thelsuo

[Yatokth]

Tirralys, ever played Arena with, against, or in any relation to a ret paladin?

A ret paladin without a bubble will be focused and DROPPED like a fucking rock. (Also, Arms/Fury warriors give up shield wall? lolweapinswitchmacro. Seriously, if you're going to compare paladins to warriors.... know the classes you're comparing.) Warriors have both Shield Wall, Spell Reflect, Defensive Stance, and WILL have a non-castable Self-HoT. (Enraged Regeneration)

Let's not mention Second Wind and Blood Craze.

Yes, Paladins shouldn't be outputting the insane burst that they WERE - but when the recent round of nerfs goes through, they're FINE (except for needing a buff to JotW - utility = useless when OOM) and yes, they ARE more survivable and defensive, so they shouldn't output quite as much damage, but it's not as if after the nerfs that they ARE. Yes, they still do damage (imagine that) but they're not god modding everything.

Retadins without their bubble would have no out in arena or any serious form of PvP. Yes, perhaps it should cut damage output more (I don't think it's neccessary now that their base damage output isn't as ludicrous) but it shouldn't be taken away - it's one of their tools and unique utilities, they NEED it. Trust me, right NOW - if a paladin doesn't use bubble, I CAN beat him. Like, before the nerfs. Yeah. So obviously, after the nerfs, he will need bubble to take me - yes, he/she should be able to take me.

Retadins without their bubble would miss out on one of the few redeeming things that keeps them viable in arena - their uncounterability. Paladins have little to no offensive utility. HoJ. Repentance. JoJ if you're fighitng druids. That is... pretty much it. Everything else is defensive:

Bubble
Hand of Freedom
HEALING LOLOLOLOLOL
Hand of Sacrifice
Hand of Protection
Hand of Overpowered Burst Damage (jk)

But really, the only thing they bring offensive-wise besides a stun and an incapacitate is DAMAGE. So they need to be able to DO damage and use that defensive utility in order to...

...

...

wait for it..

DO DAMAGE. :D

So yeah, bubble is an essential part of a paladin's strategy - they are a more defensive player, so yes, their damage shoudln't be ludicrous, but guess what? They nerfed it. WABAM.


<Villayna snipped some major personal attacks>

<Yatokth wonders why Vill didn't capitalize his "major" into "MAJOR" - Yatokth doesn't feel equally moderated to Tirralys. Yatokth's self esteem is plummetting>

[Raziel]

But not the fact that they can kill someone within the Hammer of Justice Window from Full Health.

Which amounts to 5000DPS or so.

[Villayna]

If I have to fine tooth comb through this thread again, it's gonna get locked. I have better things to do than read through PVP yawn-a-thons playing find the personal attack in this 10000 word essay game.

You have a right to an opinion, even if you think the sun revolves around the earth. Telling people they are idiots (or implying by asking if they've ever been to kindergarten) is not allowed. If they really are wrong, point them to the NASA website or something. If they still don't believe you, you can THINK they are idiots all you want, but you aren't allowed to type it out here.

[Lisbet]

Maybe Plate armor doesn't, but a bubble that gives you 100% immunity does. Instant Flash heals when you crit melee does. Getting a HoT from critting does. Having spells that automatically unensnare you does. Not to mention the fun trinkets you can get, the two stuns that last for ungodly amounts of time, oh, and on top of all that, being able to do insane amounts of damage by putting on a two-hander, being able to do double damage with it, and be able to swing it instantly twice in a row, and kill most other players within mere seconds.

No, not overpowered at all.

Take the shaman. Yes they can do damage. They can heal themselves too! But as an enhancement shaman, you get ZERO talents in the enhancement tree to improve your healing, get HoTs, or anything of the sort. Do they get a bubble? No, the closest thing they get is 30% reduced damage for 15 seconds. And, if you look at the enhancement tree really good, you'll notice there are a hell of a lot of talents you need to take to buff up your damage.

Paladins only need so many, and they get +healing and healing to the entire party to boot.

Ret Paladins = Enhancement Shamans? Fuck no. Paladins have more survivability then shamans. So, why should they also get the same damage, again? Oh, and did we mention that Ret Paladins can heal JUST AS WELL IF NOT BETTER then holy paladins? What the splork?

Over. Powered.



Yeah, maybe I'm just not into hitting AND healing at the same time. I mean, if I were Retribution or Shadow and healing the party by doing damage? That's a bit easier for me to handle, personally. But the hitting people just to get mana and increased speed on heals seems a bit too much for me. I'll probably just keep with protection, and see if I can get Ela'Jinn up to 80 eventually. Priests are my kind of healer >_>



Actually, enhancement shamans have a talent called Malstrom Weapon. After 5 melee swings it makes it so Lightning bolt, Chain Lightning, Lesser and Greater Healing Wave, and Chain Heal become instant and cheaper. Alot cheaper.

My enhancement shaman has saved some asses with instant, cheep, big heals in both BG's and instances.

[Leoren]

Random note aside: I love the tags of this thread.

[Yatokth]

Avenging Wrath back on Forbearance, reports are Forbearance is now 2 minutes:


I'm attempting to post this early since the Ret community felt totally surprised last time.

We are looking at some way of making Avenging Wrath and Divine Shield mutually exclusive. This may be through Forbearance, if we can reduce the Forbearance duration through a hotfix. The bubble is intended as a defensive measure. Yet bubble+wings currently is used a lot in BGs and Arenas and helps contribute to the feeling of being destroyed by a Retribution paladin while you are unable to respond.

My apologies to the Ret paladins who already feel picked on. We are really trying hard to not overdo anything but even the last round of pretty severe nerfs didn't seem to do enough to Ret's dominance of PvP.

We are also sympathetic to the notion that if Ret can't do insane burst damage, that the spec might need other tools to be viable in PvP. We're exploring this now, possibly though the missing 11-point Prot talent, possibly through other avenues. We'll let you know when we've made a decision here.

I don't know exactly when this change will go live, but I didn't want you to return from trick-or-treating and be shocked that we didn't announce it, since that seemed to cause a lot of damage with the last nerf.

I'll leave this post unlocked for now, assuming the responses stay intelligent and we don't get too much flaming or trolling.

NOTE: The hotfix will be on Live and the beta.

Want them to be mutually exclusive? Simple, make them not stack, just like deathwish and enrage for warriors. Bubble overwrites AW if its popped, and during bubble you can't use AW.

BAM.

2 minute penalty so no paladin will ever use AW? Not a good solution.

Good news is they're looking at giving them more tools.

[Heidenreich]

I never use AW in PvP and I never DS in PvE. No major loss to me honestly and a much needed change. Only thing that boggles me is the 2 minute CD on Forbearance and what boggles me even more is, why was AW taken off Forbearance to begin with?

Honestly just throw Forbearance back on a 1 minute CD. You can't DS and AW then still, you still have to wait a solid 60 seconds before you can chose to do the other one.

Now why don't I AW in PvP? I just normally don't think about it. I PvP in PvE gear so my dmg is already greater then that of people in PvP gear. Ok I don't Crit as much as I normally would, but do you realize how much Crit I have? (My sig is out of date)

Now why don't I DS in PvE? I LIKE TAKING DAMAGE! Damage = Heals = Mana! If I'm about to pull aggro from a tank now of days, I place Hand Of Salvation on myself. If my HoS is down, I get another Paladin to toss it on me. I also usually have a Tanks Vigilance, so they like all the aggro I produce anyways. :p

[Anorah]

Eh.. for you it's probably fine Heid. But for me personally, who prefers PvP (essentially my raiding) AW shouldn't be suicide, which is what it being on forebearance is/was pre 3.0ish. It was taken off to make it viable in that avenue, which it isn't anymore. I really hope they revert this change and just make it so DW/AW can't stack rather than making it so you can't use one after 2 minutes of using the other.

I don't see it really bothering pve though, so it's not like it breaks it entirely. Just makes it annoying for pvp.

[Heidenreich]

Yeah I have it etched in my mind still that AW equals instant focus fire and just never made the adjustment. Glad I never did.

I have been reading all over the Paladin, Damage Dealing, and I think even here by a few people. For AW to be canceled if you try to use DS and/or is you have DS up, you can't trigger AW. Which all in all makes perfect sense to me.

I've seen the above suggestion made from people of all classes and all perspectives of the game (PvE, PvP: BG, and PvP: Arena).

I also thought about it a bit and there are some occasions in Raiding I have to pop DS or could lead to a possible wipe situation. Example on Kil'Jaeden I stand right in front of him when he spawns. There have been a few times I have gotten his Fire debuff; which will wipe a raid in no time if you run through them, as he casts his spell for FIFTY FUCKING THOUSAND DAMAGE!!! So my options are DS and take off the debuff and shield myself from ungodly amounts of damage, bite the bullet and die (which I had to do on Wednesday night), or try to worm my way around 24 other people trying to collapse.

I use AW on every CD, so having the Forberance back kinda puts me in a bad hole. It's also putting Prot in a bad hole since they use AW to generate a ton of threat and use DP (Divine Protection, not Double Penetration!) since it's their version of shield wall. As well as it jacks up a Holy Paladin, since it increases their healing when they pop AW and Holy Paladins actually generate normally threat now with their healing, so DS is useful for them as well.

I have confidence that GC will find a way to fix it so it's off Forbearance and not be usable with DS. I think they were quick to HOTFIX it so bad Ret Paladin couldn't continue to be a FORTRESS and a GLASS CANNON at the same time.

[Roth'rili]

Yeah I love that your open minded about ALL of the paladin class Heid. I was going to storm in here and be like if you guys don't realize that this nerf hurts the other specs too I'm going to strangle a kitten. Holy and prot also had their seals reduced do to Ret's "double dipping" as Taknar said so our dmg/threat gen as been hurt as well. Now with this...and especially since it still as a 2min forb...I'm losing faith with the paladin class over and over lately sooner this x-pack gets close. I was really balancing if I wanted to continue with WotLK cause one of the classes I play will be fine in my eyes, or forget about it for awhile and stick with WAR.

I mean the only reason I never popped AW in PvP as holy pre-patch was cause it didn't effect my healing. Now that it does its a choice between survivability, or aka 12sec without having to be interupted to do anything, or a increase in my healing. Which honestly the healing buff of AW will never be used by me again in PvP cause honestly the bubble is more important then any increase of healing can do for me as Holy in PvP. AW for holy will remain a PvE ability with this nerf and only usable in PvP in matches that would last more then 2 minutes (most don't).

I can see too where this nerf, intended for Ret, will greatly hamper Prot as well when I have used AW in tanking for burst threat if threat is being lost to a dps class. I greatly hope the GC reads the above suggestion and mirror it like enrage and death wish cause this change is just going to effect the whole class when it was a "ret nerf". Also I'm honestly starting to wonder where this dominance is. Cause there is more people playing the class now then before cause its fun? More people testing out their pallies and more people not use to the pallies new tricks hurting us? I don't know *shrugs* not active enough on Beta to see it.

Edit: WHAT!!! I just signed on and this already got hot fixed in BEFORE TESTING! Well damn I didn't think hot fixes were that fast! bye bye AW how much I didn't utilize you before I r sorry

Edit: *cough* ok well umm the nerf doesn't effect BG play that much at all since its a lot less to deal with in my opinion then arena. I only say this cause I just got out of a AB with a personal best of mine, and if I knew how to SS on a Mac I would have immortalized it, with 400k healing...200k more then any other under me >> plus...I LOVES ME SOME BACON OF LIGHT! I will dump 1k mana any day for double target healing.

[Taknar]

Bacon is only 1k? I pay 1.2k for my basic AoE spell! If that's the "huge amount" of mana it costs you, I laugh! And then wish I had bacon...

[Muatah]

1) Divine Storm made into physical damage instead of Holy
2) All seal/udgement damage decreased
3) Judgement of Command dmg decreased by 20%
4) Repentence back down to 6 seconds from 10 in PVP
5) JotW base mana returned down to 15% from 33%
6) AW and Divine Shield no longer usable together, both cause forebearance
7) JoJ now only lasts 10 seconds instead of 20
8) AW increasing dmg by only 20% instead of 30%
9) Sanctity Aura (10% holy dmg) being taken out

soon

10) Hammer of Wrath at 20% instead of 35%
11) All seal/judgement damage decreased (AGAIN)
12) Minus 45% crit damage with AoW and RV changes

[Taknar]

1) Divine Storm made into physical damage instead of Holy
2) All seal/udgement damage decreased
3) Judgement of Command dmg decreased by 20%
4) Repentence back down to 6 seconds from 10 in PVP
5) JotW base mana returned down to 15% from 33%
6) AW and Divine Shield no longer usable together, both cause forebearance
7) JoJ now only lasts 10 seconds instead of 20
8) AW increasing dmg by only 20% instead of 30%
9) Sanctity Aura (10% holy dmg) being taken out

soon

10) Hammer of Wrath at 20% instead of 35%
11) All seal/judgement damage decreased (AGAIN)
12) Minus 45% crit damage with AoW and RV changes

Care to list the improvements to Paladins since 2.4 as well?

[Muatah]

Care to list the improvements to Paladins since 2.4 as well?

Considering that in the recent hotfix the damage-reduction-bypassing effects of AW were removed so that it is now actually worse than it was pre-3.0.2? No.

[Skaadvik]

Avenging Wrath on Forbearance was fine. It made it dangerous both to your enemies and to you. Using it in PvP was a must for me, as a shockadin. It was the difference between 5k and 8k burst. I never thought 1 minute forbearance for both DS and AW was bad. you SHOULD be a bit afraid to use Avenging Wrath, cause it's freaking powerful. Sometimes I got nuked down when everyone saw "LOL PALLY WHO CAN'T BUBBLE," but that was a risk of using it. I still got to do 8k damage to some poor, poor soul.

As to the other changes they're making, I think it's way too much. Ret Paladins are gonna be laughed at again/still.

[Yatokth]

Considering that in the recent hotfix the damage-reduction-bypassing effects of AW were removed so that it is now actually worse than it was pre-3.0.2? No.

Spell Power.

Sheath of Light.

Divine Storm is a new instant attack, period.

Art of War.

Righteous Vengeance is getting changed to MORE overall damage, less burst.

Retadins got good shit too.

They need to buff JotW and reduce forebearance (or make AW and Divine Shield just not stack and take AW off forebearance again) but otherwise - I think the changes are warranted.

[Leoren]

Considering that in the recent hotfix the damage-reduction-bypassing effects of AW were removed so that it is now actually worse than it was pre-3.0.2? No.

Whoa whoa, has this been confirmed?

I was trying to look over official posts and what not and haven't found a single word on this. If so, they seriously gimped Sanctified Wrath even more than I thought. The AW forbearance thing already made its lowered CD redundant, the nerf to hammer of wrath only would only have its extra crit come into play in a much briefer window of opportunity... to effectively strip away the third and arguably primary use of the talent for any PvPer? I'd definitely like to see something more concrete that confirms this change, even Blizzard wouldn't be that tactless not to address it -somewhere- ( I'd hope ).

[Naheal]

Spell Power.

Sheath of Light.

Divine Storm is a new instant attack, period.

Art of War.

Righteous Vengeance is getting changed to MORE overall damage, less burst.

Retadins got good shit too.

They need to buff JotW and reduce forebearance (or make AW and Divine Shield just not stack and take AW off forebearance again) but otherwise - I think the changes are warranted.

Vengance reduced to 3% from 5%.

Sheath of Light's good. I'll give you that one.

Art of War's been nerfed. Will be again.

JotW actually got nerfed recently because we had -no- mana issue.

[Raziel]

Paladins are priests in plate
Keep it to the Lore!

[Yatokth]

Vengance reduced to 3% from 5%.

Sheath of Light's good. I'll give you that one.

Art of War's been nerfed. Will be again.

JotW actually got nerfed recently because we had -no- mana issue.

Pretty much every melee classes' damage modifiers got reduced (DK's bloody vengeance, Warrior's Enrage/Wrecking Crew, Rogues' Hunger for Blood,etc)

Art of War was turned into 10% flat damage increase as opposed to 20% critical strike damage.

10% damage increase on a critical strike? 20% damage.

It actually just has more applications now than it did before.

JotW needs buffs. Seriously. :3

[Muatah]

Whoa whoa, has this been confirmed?



There is always the possibility that it is a bug with the new hotfix(never before in the history of the game has one class been so repeatedly and quickly hotfix-nerfed) to put AW back on the Forebearance system, Leoren. They rushed that one in on a Friday (Happy Halloween, Ret Paladins!) so they wouldn't have to deal with any problems until Monday.

Want to take bets on whether it gets fixed?

[Leoren]

Want to take bets on whether it gets fixed?

Before saying anything I've yet to confirm whether Sanctified Wrath has or has not been robbed of its damage resistance by passing effects. I don't think they'll keep the tool tip inaccurate for very long either way, but it would be nice to know whether it's something to spec out of. The ability to cut through a rogue's cheat death, disc priest's pain suppression and etcetera etcetera would be the only reason I'd really want to spec into the talent post the additional nerfs coming our way.

Honestly I'm reserving alot of my thoughts until we've had some time to delve into WotLK and hit 80. Much as I want to give in to the initial knee jerk reaction of crying foul, I simply don't know nearly enough about how all of this will play out until the waters are tested in the new end game.

Yes, I believe Blizzard has done a poor job of handling the class the last few weeks, but it needed to be handled. Everyone subscribing to the flavour of the month club was getting a bit tiresome. No one likes being given shiny new toys only to have them taken away and returned considerably duller, but I'm still optimistic that we're in a better position than we have been for much of our existance.

The nerf to JotW? At the moment with intellect still on our gear? It hasn't proven to be the executioner's axe to the spec as some have been quick to rush to. When I first read about it without having tried it myself, I was hugely disappointed. The thought of going OOM just from a normal rotation of our core damage dealing abilities in under 2 minutes was unacceptable. In retrospect, I get the impression alot of folks were screaming erroneous reports in the hopes of getting it rebuffed. We're not going OOM that fast provided you're smart with what and how you use in your rotations. In the span of 20 minutes I had been testing several rotations of abilities to see just how bad the nerf was. Obviously when I tried throwing in consecrates, or flashes of light for every art of war, my mana would definitely dip ( less so in the case of the latter ), but I could always operate with the three main offensive instant casts ( Crusader Strike, Judgement & Divine Storm ) in safety. The fact we even -have- 15% base mana regeneration per judgement? I would have absolutely adored that months ago, when we literally would go OOM in the span of a single Avenging Wrath's forebearance. The nerf simply brought it into line where alot of people needed to learn to play smart. Not all could handle that, apparentely. Maybe when our gear changes with WotLK this will be much more painful, also taking into account the way some of the new mana drains will work by then, until then I'm relatively content with the number in place ( 20% would make me -real- content, but I've always made do with what I've been given ).

That's not to say I am in some blind faith that Blizzard knows best with what they're doing. The nerfs to some of the way our deep Ret talents work? Not exactly a giant surprise. What does surprise me is how they've gone and nerfed co-efficients class wide before even swinging the advertised nerf mace. Add to that the way they've made Avenging Wrath all but redundant again in Arena? Undoubtedly more so than pre 3.0.2? Really. Fucking. Dumb. The skill itself has effectively been destroyed as a viable option unless your bubble is down and you've miraculously survived outside of it within the arena for 2 minutes after it.

I genuinely do believe Blizzard doesn't want the term 'lolret' to ever be part of the common subscriber's vernacular again. They're alot more aware of just how much more played the spec has been recently. I don't think they would have re worked the class to as amazing as it had been prior to the nerfs if they hadn't want to help give Ret its chance to shine. Hell, we were never able to be Ret and be capable of getting out reliable and useful heals without going entirely OOM or having to break the flow of combat. Yes, I realise alot are reluctant to acknowledge the fact they can heal after having been pigeon holed solely into DPS ( sub par some would have you believe ) for so long, but these days we're -much- better at throwing those crux heals ( which aren't too shabby mind you ) which can really save the day ON TOP of our role as a DPS.

The next few weeks are going to definitely be trying times for Ret paladins, veterans and flavour of the month followers alike. Some will handle the nerfs better or worse than others. It's my hope though that genuine analysis isn't lost to the sea of QQ the majority are flooding the boards with in the mean time. Only time will tell if Blizzard is sincere in their promises to keep us as a serious threat on the fields. I respect there are those that don't share my patience or faith, track records considered, I'd be a fool not to be the slightest bit apprehensive. I just know there's already enough fuss going around to worry about being personally aggro'd by it all, and more likely than not the skilled players will still be able to make it work like they've been doing through the roller coaster that is their life story.

[Anorah]

Been trying out the new forebearance (the one on avenging wrath) by mixing it up with Divine Protection, Divine Shield, and Avenging Wrath. In a BG it's not .. a hugely bad thing, use one before I go down. Next fight I use another. I still don't see it being hugely viable for Arena's.. but at the moment it's liveable.

IF they don't remove FB from AW, I was thinking of an alternative.. changing the Talent, Sanctified Wrath, to maybe reducing the forebearance timer? Or potentially upping the damage % increase on it to make it REALLY glass cannon. I know they'll be nerfing our burst a bit more in the near future so perhaps that will help to compensate and still make it worthwhile. I'm no dev though :P Just some thoughts if we end up having to live with this change permanently.

Here's hoping we don't.

[Heidenreich]

JUST BECAUSE WE ARE MARRIED DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET TO SLIP PAST THE RAIDAR, I SAID ENOUGH. - Lisbet

[Heidenreich]

OFF TOPIC!


JUST BECAUSE WE ARE MARRIED DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET TO SLIP PAST THE RAIDAR, I SAID ENOUGH. - Lisbet

I GOT PWNED! HARDER THEN A RET PALADIN HITTING A MAGE!!!

NERF LISBET.....TO THE GROUND!!!!!

[Raziel]

RAIDAR

Someone spends too much time in Dungeons.

[Sanrin]

Its taking over her mind?

[Taknar]

Might as well just lock it up. Those of us that still want to test things out and theorycraft can do so in game.

[Moknim]

JUST BECAUSE WE ARE MARRIED DOESN'T MEAN YOU GET TO SLIP PAST THE RAIDAR, I SAID ENOUGH. - Lisbet

Lisbet for the win.

[Fhenrir]

My apologies to everyone for not being around to handle this thread personally before it got anywhere near what it is now.

Locking this down. Maybe I'll try a new thread when I have time to properly make sure people will stay calm and remember this is a game.