In response to "If you ran TNG for a day" [Archive]

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Villayna

10-09-2008, 02:36 PM

If you ran TNG for a day (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=13175)

After sorting through all of that earlier in the week, this is the overall gist I got from it (in hierarchical order):

Help! Help! I’m being Oppressed!
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Too many “trolls”
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Too much “stupidity”
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Remove/Hide non-WoW, non-RP forums
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Other Stuff
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo Emoticons
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo YouTube spam -> 1 thread
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo Recognition to RPers
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo Celebrity Avatars
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo Too many posts in the wrong place
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo Ban non-RPers/non-active-WoW-players

Help! I’m Bored!
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Shoutbox
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• IRC
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Contests
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Other Stuff
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo Site Style
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo Public Humiliation of Trolls
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo Make People Post more RP/Art
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo Bring New People to the site

Help! Save me time!
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Better Stickies
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo Posting Guidelines
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifhttp://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gifo RP Guild Guide
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Front Page
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Art Gallery

Just Help?
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• RP/Art/Writing Tutorials
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• RP Networking Forum
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Cheerleader (Comments on RP Posts/Artwork)/ Newbie Greeter
http://wow-tng.org/images/spacer20.gif• Community Events

So here's my response.

Help! Help! I’m being Oppressed!

In response to the overwhelming cry for more/better moderation, we are implementing a new infractions system (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=13385). One of the problems with current moderation is the only tools we had were Deleting, Editing, and Banning. I ask that people be patient with me and the other mods as we figure out the best way to use this tool fairly.

Just to note, there was nearly an equal outcry for anti-troll moderation, and anti-stupid moderation. So not only will you (hopefully) see less personal attacks, but also less "I wuz drunk, hurrrHurr" stuff too.

I've reorganized the forums a little, so it should be easier to "hide" sections of the site that you don't use. I won't be removing either the OOC or the non-WoW forums, but if you don't like them, they don't have to take up your precious webspace :)

I've already removed the two NSFW emoticons and added a YouTube sticky to the Misc section of the site. I happen to like the celebrity wow-characters, so the obnoxious trolls on the official forums that don't like them can stuff it. I will not be "pre-emptively" banning official forum trolls if they happen to wander by TNG and post something inoffensive. I don't care how many times they killed you or /danced in the middle of your RP session. They will, however, be quickly escorted off the premises if they so much as sneeze in the wrong direction though.

RP recognition I think is a good idea if done right. I'll see about tieing it into the contests. Right now I'm thinking of some sort of "badge" type thing you could stick above your posting avatar. Future thing though, don't expect anything soon.

Help! I’m Bored!

Emmons set up a few IRC channels (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=13188). I have seen a few javascript based IRC things I might be able to thrown onto the site, but this would be a low priority item. Shoutboxes I will never do. While I think it's a good thing to be social with your fellow RPers, sitting around waiting for a little box to light up with a comment is lost time you should be using doing something productive. I won't be doing any sort of public humiliation of trolls either. As fun as that sounds, I can't honestly say that that would make the community stronger. Plus it might scare off some newbies since there seems to be some thought that TNG is intimidating to new people.

Contests. I will be working with a few people who have volunteered to try to set up some new contests and shorter challenges to give people a reason to spark their creativity. Hopefully these challenges will make posting here less daunting to someone who is new. Stay tuned :)

Site-styling is just low priority for me, sorry. I still need to implement Broxigan's winning entry from like, 6 months+ ago. Sorry Brox, I swear I'll do it one of these days!

Help! Save me time!

I've gone through and redone all of the posting guidelines for all of the sections. With the exception of Izrail's RP networking section and Fhenrir's PVP section, all posting guidelines can now be found in this thread (http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=13281). If something isn't clear, feel free to ask me reword stuff.

I've created the RP Guilds/Associations Section, per Opalexian's suggestion. It solves a few problems with the former guild sticky and promotes guilds pride. I really liked this suggestion. I like easy and elegant ^^

I few people made suggestions about providing "non-forum" space. People who were around for the original incarnation of TNG (back when it was tn.yzeens.com) know that we had a front page back then. Nobody ever used it. Well, almost nobody. I remember the website stats was something like 1 out 20 people had that bookmarked versus the actual forum page. So when we moved over to the vBulletin implementation, I axed the front page. I will look into making something but at this point I have ZERO intention of moving the forum, which means that a front page would have to be faked at a wow-tng.org/portal page or something of the ilk. It's doable, but sooo much cleaner if you put the portal page as the index and drop the forums to a subdirectory. Eeeeeeeny way.. Like I said, I'll check into it. There are a few things I'd like to do if we had a place to do them (like the art gallery thing). Cryptic I am, yes.

Just Help?

Alright. I already spend too much time on this site as it is. If you guys want tutorials and cheerleader and newbie greeters, just do it! You don't need my permission! Use the wiki! Or if you don't like the wiki, make a post somewhere and I'll sticky it in the appropriate forum! You want someone to run around and make new people feel welcome? Go for it! I'm certainly not going to stop you. I try to catch them when I see them, but it doesn't hurt if others do it too. Want to see more feedback happening in the Legends forum? Go read and comment on people who aren't in your normal circle of friends. The nice thing about this is it's usually a positive feedback loops. If you start commenting, one of them might start commenting, and soon you have an army of helpful critiquers!

Look at Izrail. He's been bugging me for months to put that forum up, and now he has it. I may be slow, but I do usually listen :) So help him make it a success. Use it to network with other people you wouldn't normally RP with. With the expansion out in a month, the RP is going to start rolling in again.

Villayna

10-10-2008, 08:23 AM

/bumps, since the infractions post has 5times the views of this one. I think I gave it most of those views when I was editing it.

Sifar

10-10-2008, 09:07 AM

If I haven't said it already, thank you Vill! You've given and done more than expected. :)

Izrail

10-10-2008, 02:12 PM

If I haven't said it already, thank you Vill! You've given and done more than expected. :)

Indeed. Many thanks.

Xaraphyne

10-10-2008, 02:16 PM

I think most the changes are for the better. And the rest aren't bad, they just don't particularly move me one way or the other. ;) Thank you, Mort, for putting so much into making TNG such an awesome place.

Moknim

10-10-2008, 02:31 PM

Thanks Villiyana! I think the changes are great!

Kevashida

10-10-2008, 02:35 PM

I will not be "pre-emptively" banning official forum trolls if they happen to wander by TNG and post something inoffensive. I don't care how many times they killed you or /danced in the middle of your RP session. They will, however, be quickly escorted off the premises if they so much as sneeze in the wrong direction though.

Thank ya fer that. I'm a huge troll, but I try and keep it where it belongs (I.E., I'll spam trade like mad, but yell at people for spamming the dungeon channel. I actually banned luminar from that chan, it was fun :D)

Broxigan

10-10-2008, 02:36 PM

-Hugs Samual Orc Jackson.- Thanks Vill! I do like alot of the changes. Some will take some getting used to, but it will be for the greater good, me thinks.

Now, get ta werk ya bum!

<3

Jeedup

10-11-2008, 06:16 PM

*cough*artforum*cough*

Advurb

10-11-2008, 08:16 PM

A I will not be "pre-emptively" banning official forum trolls if they happen to wander by TNG and post something inoffensive.

Thanks?

Raziel

10-14-2008, 01:05 AM

but it will be for the greater good,

FOR THE GREATER GOOD!

Ironskull

12-03-2008, 10:03 PM

I don't get why anyone complains about TNG. Everything seems civil, there's lively discussion and plenty of intelligent opinions. Compare this site to the official forums and you see the difference.

I have nothing to complain about.

Sowell

Gorymoru

12-03-2008, 10:25 PM

HOLYCRAP!!! I know that name ((Ironskull)). I is glad to see it posting again ^_^.

As for TNG...love it. Granted, it's my first experience with an RP forum...and thank the gods it was TNG. Cause honestly, most of my first experiences with anything have been somewhat fail <3 you Mortica.

Not much to complain about. Except Advurb. But he's just...Advurb. So I can adapt.

Chingaso

12-03-2008, 10:59 PM

Sylennis

12-04-2008, 12:42 AM

OK, gloves off, no punches pulled...

TNG is over-moderated. Period. Except for Manus, of course.
To be fair, Villy asked everyone on TNG what they wanted and the most outstanding request was stricter moderation. Apparently it's what a lot of people here want.

Agnarr

12-04-2008, 01:05 AM

People love being told what to do.

Ellsbeth

12-04-2008, 05:47 AM

Hey the moderation is awesome and pretty much spot on. I kinda enjoy it when my posts get deleted when they should be deleted. Especially when it's done by Brig.

Advurb

12-04-2008, 06:12 AM

Xaraphyne

12-04-2008, 08:06 AM

Lisbet

12-04-2008, 08:50 AM

People complained that there wasn't enough moderation. Now they're complaining that there's to much?

Make up your mind. Jeeze.

Broxigan

12-04-2008, 10:14 AM

OK, gloves off, no punches pulled...

TNG is over-moderated. Period. Except for Manus, of course.

Source: I have been a moderator at http://forums.cigarweekly.com for several years now, and there are things that happen here that would never even ding the radar of the moderators there. And being a top 500 Internet BB site, trust me, we have our share of trolls.

Question:

Are we aiming to be one of the top 500 Internet BB sites or are we aiming to have a civil environment for people of all ages to come in, enjoy, feel comfortable and post?

Good for Cigarweekly being up in the top 500.

This is Warcraft. A Video Game. People of all ages play, even though it is rated Teen. Precautions have to be taken, people need to be on leashes.

Edit: We have people who post around here who just like to target people from time to time and say hurtful things. Yes, it is the interwebz and you are being hurt by Mr. Anonymous, but regardless; everyone is different in the way the react and feel towards things. Hence the moderation. The moderation came about because of issues that were brought up. That means there is a problem, not just a "HAI LETS MOD PEOPLE TO BE DICKS."

Problem causers bring about MOD. Not the other way around.

Izrail

12-04-2008, 12:17 PM

Deleted posts say who deleted them and why, so take up your specific moderation concerns with the mod who made whatever decision you dislike. Or with the Headgoblin if the direct route makes you uncomfortable.

This is Warcraft. A Video Game. People of all ages play, even though it is rated Teen. Precautions have to be taken, people need to be on leashes.

Edit: We have people who post around here who just like to target people from time to time and say hurtful things. Yes, it is the interwebz and you are being hurt by Mr. Anonymous, but regardless; everyone is different in the way the react and feel towards things. Hence the moderation. The moderation came about because of issues that were brought up. That means there is a problem, not just a "HAI LETS MOD PEOPLE TO BE DICKS."

Problem causers bring about MOD. Not the other way around.

What Brox said. I'm all for stricter moderation in forums. There is a place for everything on the Internet and no reason laziness or lack of self-control should force TNGers to accept the conversion of the site into something it wasn't created to be. (A place for the role-playing community of Twisting Nether to strengthen RP.) Letting everyone bring issues unrelated to that function is very generous and much appreciated. Please don't abuse that generosity.

Rand_Shea

12-04-2008, 12:18 PM

Video game != tobacco roll

I believe the moderation could use some work, but more so with the people who are doing it rather than how many. Seems to me some of them troll just as much as the 'trolls' do.

But it's Villayna's choice on who gets what privileges. If I don't like it, I can address it with her, or I can go somewhere else.

Ellsbeth

12-04-2008, 12:22 PM

Question:Are we aiming to be one of the top 500 Internet BB sites or are we aiming to have a civil environment for people of all ages to come in, enjoy, feel comfortable and post?

I hope the latter. I've been to a few different WoW-centric forums out there and they do not moderate as much as it is here and it's an entirely different feel. Add to it the lack of moderation in the the regular WoW Forums ------>

This is a group of several different ages. While I'm sure Cigar Weekly has a wide-range of people who read the site, this one has a high percentage of youth who have grown up where the lulz is all. I'm one of them in a way.

We need to be reigned in. Often people notice Raz's trolling because they still smart over stuff he said which was probably harsh, but very close to spot on.

Just being a jackass because you want to be? Not conducive to the environment most people want here. Being a jackass and getting your post deleted, is. Being a jackass for the sake of being a jackass? Eh whatever. I have no complaints about any of the moderation except for a few times where people got hotheaded, but now it's all hunky dory.

Let it go. Serious here. It's enjoyable to be on the TNG.

Malebrignon

12-04-2008, 12:34 PM

Just a note:

I would approximate that 95% of all the moderation I do happens as a result of reported posts. While I won't speak for the others, when my attention is called to a thread due to a report, I evaluate ALL of the posting in said thread and start swinging my sickle as I deem necessary. Sometimes I even find that the person reporting the post also incited the post they are reporting and I end up editing or deleting them, too.

That other 5%? Well, those are threads that I'm actively participating in and you should damn well know better than to troll a thread that has a mod's interest. The fastest way to earn an infraction is to admit in your post that you know you should'nt post it.

Villayna

12-04-2008, 12:45 PM

The things that get modded generally fall into 2 categories:

1. Personal attacks and the string of replies that in themselves aren't bad, but when I remove the problem post they would become big huge "huh?'s" to someone who didn't see the deleted post.

2. People who go offtopic in serious posts.

I also think alot of people have some serious tunnel vision issues and what is unbiased moderation is seen as biased because they are not capable of seeing the other side of issue. Or some people they just HATE so much that that person cannot post the color "blue" without a heated 5 paragraph rebuttal that it's actually "red".

I'm not saying the moderation is perfect. But unless you guys want me to suddenly start throwing advertisements up so I can pay for people to actually take the time to read through EVERY single post, this is the way it is. And again..if you see something that needs to be moderated, click the "report post" option (little red triangle at the bottom of the box the posters name is in). If you have a problem with moderation, send me a single PM and I will take a look at it and talk to the mod in question if I think it's warranted.

Cabriel

12-04-2008, 02:11 PM

I have issues with some of the moderation here. I took it up with Mort and the mod in question. I got a succint answer, and that was that.

Do I still think that at times, certain mods need to have a sense of humor, realizing that sometimes "off topic" posts add to the overall thread? Yes.

Do I get irritated when I click on a thread and 2/3 of the page are deleted posts? Yes.

Do I think twice before posting anything of substance, for fear it will disappear or incite something totally ridiculous? Yes.

Am I happy overall to be a part of this community? Yes.

Do I mind the "rules" even if they're a bit inconsistent? No.

TNG is a happenin', awesome place. It's worth it to just drop it when something pisses you off. There's way more here to be happy about.

Barke

12-04-2008, 04:06 PM

I like the moderation here. Just a few years ago there wasn't enough moderation. We had people jumping down throats just because they could.

There was also a time when alliance couldn't give an opinion in any topic without having someone attack them. Sit on that end of the stick for a few years.

<3 mods.

Raziel

12-05-2008, 11:21 AM

I like the moderation here. Just a few years ago there wasn't enough moderation. We had people jumping down throats just because they could.

As Regent Lord of the Grand Principality of the Fallen Kingdom of Inferno, I bite my thumb at thee.

There was also a time when alliance couldn't give an opinion in any topic without having someone attack them. Sit on that end of the stick for a few years.

I was the stick.

Xaraphyne

12-05-2008, 12:44 PM

I was the stick.

That's... The images.... Oh god.

Swerto

12-05-2008, 02:29 PM

Moderation here is fine.

Yeah, posts of mine get deleted... a LOT of them do.

It's what I get for being off topic so damn much.

Chingaso

12-05-2008, 02:46 PM

Villayna

12-05-2008, 02:50 PM

there's a difference between being off-topic and being topic-less, Chingaso :(

Xaraphyne

12-05-2008, 03:08 PM

You know, I might alter my opinion a bit if one of the mods hadn't gone and by-God proved my point.

If all you want is RP and game talk, then get rid of the off-topic forums where things go...well, off topic.

If you mod another board, you've surely had to delete off-topic or useless posts. If so, you've surely had grief given to you over it. Tell me, what did it sound like? Familiar at all?

No one wants to think that something they said wasn't worth hearing, or didn't contribute in some way. I feel a twinge when I see posts of mine got deleted for being useless or inflammatory. I'm embarrassed and it's likely to make me defensive on the subject too.

But as long as we're human, we're bound to err, and sometimes have to accept that some not-too-subtle suggestions to shape up are merited. Otherwise, we don't learn anything, and will continue to annoy people for the rest of our lives doing the same thing over and over.

Abric

12-05-2008, 03:49 PM

Give them an inch, and they will take a mile.

Concerning "off-topic" responses, depending on how the original creator of the thread feels, or if a moderator falls into it - we will handle it. Not because it is necessarily off-topic, but because EVERYONE feels they have the MOST IMPORTANT response to make concerning that. It also leads to...

"The one liner." lol. heh. lawl. that was funny. quote. All of these things, and the many others that I did not give an example; are for stupid people. While you may not be stupid at all times, whenever you (generally speaking) make a post that has one line, you had fallen into the realm of stupid. Why is it stupid? Because it is worthless, unconstructive, and there are twenty different OTHER ways to respond to a post other than putting in a one liner. That is always up for debate, of course... which leads to:

"The Great Debater." People who feel like they have to argue with people or authority; just because they can. While I am always one who personally likes to debate, there is a difference between debating a topic or opinion - then just arguing. If you want to argue, I'm cool with that. I have more buttons on my screen - I win the argument. I am your internet daddy.

...

And for you rat bastards who *know* they are going to get moderated, please refrain from being stupid. We really do like to moderate the serious stuff, and would prefer it not to happen - but when we do have to take out the mod weapons; we prefer it to be for a good reason.

Not because you are having a fucking brain fart. DOOM!

Naheal

12-05-2008, 05:18 PM

Often times, one liner posts are to express a simple opinion that doesn't need a text block or to express approval/disapproval of a particular post.

Edit: That is not to say that there's a time and place that such things should be removed (see the Politics forum).

Ellsbeth

12-05-2008, 05:29 PM

But as long as we're human, we're bound to err, and sometimes have to accept that some not-too-subtle suggestions to shape up are merited. Otherwise, we don't learn anything, and will continue to annoy people for the rest of our lives doing the same thing over and over.

I really like this Xara. It's very true. And if anyone is upset about their post being deleted, or embarrassed...

Remember that most people don't care and won't remember it happening or the content of the post. Unless you posted something that needed moderation for being inflammatory.

Chingaso

12-05-2008, 05:39 PM

there's a difference between being off-topic and being topic-less, Chingaso :(
What???

I wanted people to discuss Fight Club. That I went about it in an unconventional manner deserves thread deletion?

Why am I having to explain this?

Malebrignon

12-05-2008, 06:45 PM

What???

I wanted people to discuss Fight Club. That I went about it in an unconventional manner deserves thread deletion?

Why am I having to explain this?

Y'know what, I've just un-deleted it just to prove a point.

http://wow-tng.org/showthread.php?t=14495

How is that constructively asking for a discussion of Fight Club? I actually did a Google search to see if MeatLoaf had died or something. The movie is ancient by film standards and not relevant to any other discussion being had on the forums that I could see. I even invited you to explain the relevance of the thread before I deleted it and you responded with what I perceived as childish indignation and failed to make a case for the thread to remain open.

Cabriel

12-05-2008, 07:00 PM

What???

I wanted people to discuss Fight Club. That I went about it in an unconventional manner deserves thread deletion?

Why am I having to explain this?

Just want to say that I feel you on this. I've dodged it enough times, but, yeah. This is what I was talking about up there. o.O

Villayna

12-05-2008, 07:39 PM

You know, I might alter my opinion a bit if one of the mods hadn't gone and by-God proved my point.

I wanted people to discuss Fight Club.

Chingaso, man, you know I love you, but you didn't post that thread to talk about Fight Club. You posted something you knew was spam to make a point.

Chingaso

12-05-2008, 07:58 PM

No. Honest to god no. It was intended as a Fight Club thread. 'Brig saw it different.

But honestly, that's how I am used to starting movie discussion threads. I can give you links to examples if I need to.

I guess I hit a nerve with the drill when I made my "over-moderated" comment. I apologize.

Chingaso

12-05-2008, 08:03 PM

http://forums.cigarweekly.com/showthread.php?t=144114

http://forums.cigarweekly.com/showthread.php?t=144115

http://forums.cigarweekly.com/showthread.php?t=144113

http://forums.cigarweekly.com/showthread.php?t=143388

Some examples. If this sort of thing is considered spam and unwelcome on TNG, then I will refrain from this day forth and apologize for any inconvenience. Honest.

Abric

12-06-2008, 12:12 AM

EXAMPLE EXAMPLE EXAMPLE
---------------------------

Hey guys, check this link out. I love me some Fight Club, for those who can't click it yet. You know what I love most about it? Sobbing into Rob's giant bitch tits.

What about you guys?

--------------------------------
EXAMPLE EXAMPLE EXAMPLE

That is an acceptable form of "I just wanted to talk about fight club." As Mortica has said before, just linking stuff doesn't cut the mustard. You have to expand on it... engage people on it... bring them in and let them know what is happening.

Chingaso

12-06-2008, 12:47 AM

Sorry, I like to draw in the ones who know what I am talking about first and then when it becomes apparent everyone else can join.

But why are you giving me advice? [deleted comment]

Xaraphyne

12-06-2008, 08:59 AM

Sooo... what point exactly was being made about Fight Club in that thread?

Oh, there wasn't one. Not even that it was something new or interesting that people's attention should be called to.

Yup. Spam.

Izrail

12-06-2008, 10:15 AM

Sorry, I like to draw in the ones who know what I am talking about first and then when it becomes apparent everyone else can join.

But why are you giving me advice? [deleted comment]

It's the internet. When you initiate conversations like this, the opinionated are happy to get involved.

How successful were your examples in getting people to discuss the movie you referenced?