SPOILERS INC ABOUT FORSAKEN -- don't read if you don't want to know.

[Lisbet]

Sylvannas' Betrayal of the Horde (http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=15888.0)



Alliance: Highlord Bolvar! Thank the Light!
For Lordaeron!
For the Alliance!
Back, you mindless wretches!
Fight on, brothers!

Horde: Rise up, sons of the Horde!
Blood and glory await us!
Lok'tar ogar! For the Horde!
FOR THE HORDE!

Alliance: I was wondering if you'd show up!

Horde: I couldn't let the Alliance have ALL the fun today!

Alliance: Arthas! The blood of your father, of your people, demands justice!
Come forth, coward, and answer for your crimes!

Arthas: You speak of justice?
Of cowardice?
I will show you the justice of the grave and the true meaning of fear.

Horde: Enough talk! Let it be finished!
Alliance: You will pay for all the lives you've stolen, traitor.

Arthas: Boldly stated, but there is nothing you can--

Sylvanas: What?
Did you think we had forgotten?
Did you think we had forgiven?
Behold, now, the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!

Arthas: Sylvanas...

Sylvanas: Death to the Scourge! And death to the living!

Horde: Fall back!

Arthas: This isn't over.

Sylvanas: Now, all can see this is the hour of the Forsaken.

Alliance: We're finished.

Horde: No escape... for any of us.


Ah, this Horde storyline looks awesome, should shut those people up who complain about Alliance having all the cool quests. From what I gather, Saurfang will be killed at the Wrath Gate event when Varithamas and Sylvanas betray the Horde. Alexstazsa comes in in dragon form to end the conflict - right now on live servers you can see that Blizzard is working on it, you can see the "aftermath" where everything is in chaos. The main question is whether Sylvanas betrays the Horde as well, given her ingame dialogue.. obviously she and Varithamas have different ends, but perhaps she goes along or even leads the betrayal?




Vol'jin becomes the "forced military control" over undercity... aka keeping the peace till the horde can figure out what to do.

If the Undead themselves don't become their own faction, what's to become of those so very loyal to the betrayer of the horde?

[Keraph]

I was looking at this earlier, you might wanna mark this with *SPOILERS* or something like that.

Real post inc.

[Cessily]

What? Cessily was right again? Now all I have to do is wait for "Burning Crusade Kael was an Impostor" patch!

[Lisbet]

Fixt, happy?

[Keraph]

Thank you dear, just for those who might be like "AW DAM SPOILERS D:"

I'm not entirely sure what direction will be taken with this. Infection is loyal to the Dark Lady, even if (read: ESPECIALLY IF) she was to betray the Horde. What this means for us kinda teeters on what direction Blizzard is going to take with our race. We will be vocally opposed to the 'Horde occupation' of our lands, of course, but I honestly don't know how far this will be taken from Blizzard's end, so it's a bit hard to come up with a plan of action.

However, without question we will remain loyal to Sylvanas. If Blizz DID have the cojones to make a third faction for the Forsaken 'rebels', well, I'm not worried about myself, but you hordelings better look out. You're no better than the Alliance, never have been, but now we just get to say it openly XD

[Agnarr]

I'm giddy.

[Kaldore]

In other news:

My new sig ----V

[Keraph]

Long as you don't forget that she said "except Nadea"! I'll gank ya!

Speaking of ganking (and posting related to this thread), I'm almost positive that they're not going to do it this way, but ganking horde AND alliance would be GREAT!

[Vilmah]

[Vol'jin becomes the "forced military control" over undercity... aka keeping the peace till the horde can figure out what to do. [/QUOTE]

..THAT is fucking SEXY.

[Kaldore]

Are you kidding? I got up to that part and immediately changed my sig! There was more?





Alright Nadea, You're off the hook.... For now.

[Keraph]

[Vol'jin becomes the "forced military control" over undercity... aka keeping the peace till the horde can figure out what to do.

..THAT is fucking SEXY.[/QUOTE]

So you think!

I'll kill him. I'll FIND A WAY.

ILLISADE! I have a LOT of gold. I'll leave the back door open :3

[Vilmah]

Oh, is the sexy troll gonna own your zombie city? HA! OURS NOW, BEECHES!

[Keraph]

Oh, is the sexy troll gonna own your zombie city? HA! OURS NOW, BEECHES!

Don't make me put you on the list. BY GOD WOMAN I'LL DO IT.

[Evanthe]

I wonder how the Blood Elves will be affected by this, having come into the Horde on Sylvannis' recommendation, as well as being more loyal to her than, say, Thrall.

[Fynne]

Post-BC they're sworn to the Naaru and killing them scourgey folk.

[Advurb]

Ugh, it's this kind of crap that ruined BC lore.

"Oh, they're BEs but killing Kael for some reason and now we have space ships and squid goats but somehow gnomes still have 0 lore

[Vilmah]

"Oh, they're BEs but killing Kael for some reason and now we have space ships and squid goats but somehow gnomes still have 0 lore

Gnomes also don't have mass public orgies. Obviously Blizzard has priorities in mind.

[Thalarios]

Gnomes also don't have mass public orgies.

They should, damn it.

[Taknar]

I think this is long coming. In hindsight I shouldn't have clicked on this link since it is the most epic spoiler I've ever read... ever.

That said, it was obvious that these guys didn't embody the spirit of honour that the Horde love... they are pretty flat out evil. I'm just concerned about the people like Infection that prefer to stay with the evil queen. I mean, how many Forsaken RP good people?

[Advurb]

I mean, how many Forsaken RP good people?
I do! Although if I had actually rolled on this server initially intending to RP he totally wouldn't have been undead, wouldn't have been named Advurb, and wouldn't have a purple mohawk.

Oh well.

[Kovan]

I do! Although if I had actually rolled on this server initially intending to RP he totally wouldn't have been undead, wouldn't have been named Advurb, and wouldn't have a purple mohawk.

Oh well.

Am A tiny bit suprised you havn't coughed up the 10$ to rename honestly.

[Advurb]

I'm a cheap bastard.

You know it just struck me, wouldn't it be funny (though impossibly unlikely) if blizzard just wrote in the patch notes Forsaken are leaving the Horde, all Forsaken are KOS to horde and alliance now and you can't speak to either faction

That would be the ultimate WTF moment

[opalexian]

I'm a cheap bastard.

You know it just struck me, wouldn't it be funny (though impossibly unlikely) if blizzard just wrote in the patch notes Forsaken are leaving the Horde, all Forsaken are KOS to horde and alliance now and you can't speak to either faction

That would be the ultimate WTF moment

I think there would be people leaving their character but THERE WOULD BE SO MANY MORE FORSAKEN (wtb solution to no free for all servers?)

[Vilmah]

I do! Although if I had actually rolled on this server initially intending to RP he totally wouldn't have been undead, wouldn't have been named Advurb, and wouldn't have a purple mohawk.

Bullshit, I love the name and the hair. Catalinetta was mystified when she met Advurb. Total undead crush.

[Taknar]

Yeah... as in "WTF... I just forgot Orcish!"

[Advurb]

I think there would be people leaving their character but THERE WOULD BE SO MANY MORE FORSAKEN (wtb solution to no free for all servers?)

BGs would be interesting

Herald yells:"The Horde flag was taken by Forsakenguy!"
Herald yells:"The Alliance flag was also taken by Forsakenguy! ...wait what? OHSHI-"
*WSG is sucked into a black hole paradox thingy*

Who needs a Large Hadron Collider?

[Advurb]

Bullshit, I love the name and the hair. Catalinetta was mystified when she met Advurb. Total undead crush.

Ha! Too bad other blood elves aren't as badass...

[Amoola]

having a third player faction would be an interesting twist that Swift and I have bantered about. But, I see an issue if that spontaneously happened with the forsaken. Let's say that *if* this did happen, where do the forsaken characters for those who don't solely play the race go, or their now opposing faction characters that are troll/orc/tauren?

I doubt that Blizz is going to do a third player faction with any of the current player races with out a hell of a lot of warning. But, that is just me.

[edit] Then again they could stick all the DK's into the same third faction as the forsaken. lol

[Advurb]

having a third player faction would be an interesting twist that Swift and I have bantered about. But, I see an issue if that spontaneously happened with the forsaken. Let's say that *if* this did happen, where do the forsaken characters for those who don't solely play the race go, or their now opposing faction characters that are troll/orc/tauren?

I doubt that Blizz is going to do a third player faction with any of the current player races with out a hell of a lot of warning. But, that is just me.

Oh I know, I just thought about it hypothetically for the lulz.

[Amoola]

yeah, I had my own lol moment (see the edit on my post) I suddenly heard the bully from the simpsons laughing and pointing. :)

[Yatokth]

I mean, how many Forsaken RP good people?

I do as well. Yat likes orcs more than most undead. They're more honorable.

Then again Yat's story is quite different. :P

But point being about this plotline -

I had it accidentally spoiled for me by a source other than this post (the LK wiki) so when I saw the title I knew what it was.

I DIDN'T know Saurfang kicked the bucket. Yat sad now - but as long as he has a badass death he's good.

But oh well - the occupation deal should make for VERY cool RPs for EVERY party involved. :D

[Advurb]

I dunno I liked Forsaken where they are now.. kind of the dark badass side of the Horde. Kind of symbolizing what the Horde was before, a zealous killing machine. Although it was demons instead of undead.

Anyway, I'm apprehensive about it also because I'm having a bit of deja vu Kael style. Leader leaves the faction and all of a sudden everyone hates them. Kael could have been a cool belf leader if they didn't decide to go all demon infested bullshit with him.

Once again, all hypothetical though.

[Taknar]

It's Saurfang the Younger that dies, it seems. The first quest in the chain involving the aftermath has you take the armour back to the elder Saurfang (and most likely watch the pissed off Orc kill something big)

[Raziel]

It's Saurfang the Younger that dies, it seems. The first quest in the chain involving the aftermath has you take the armour back to the elder Saurfang (and most likely watch the pissed off Orc kill something big)

To note: He's the little guy by the Caravan in Nagrand.

[Vilmah]

Ha! Too bad other blood elves aren't as badass...

I know. It saddens me. Catalinetta has to make up for it by cursing a lot.

[Agnarr]

I mean, how many Forsaken RP good people?
I do. Times change, though.

[Kethryvaris]

Oshit.

What the fucking fuck do I do with Keth now?

Son of a bitch.

'S a good thing I'm leveling a BE priestess.

Damn.

[opalexian]

DON'T PANIC!

While the page Lis linked made my eyes bleed ; b I waded through it to find the related Elitist Jerks discussion (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t30118-wrath_lich_king_-_lore_storyline_discussion_spoilers/p11/) about this. Since Sylvanas will still be needed to get the leader kill title she won't be gone gone, just...temporarily replaced. As an aside the discussion has a lot of mentions of dynamic content in WotLK-something they should have implemented long ago, but this sounds really neat. :fap::fap::fap:

[Raziel]

Watch them turn around and make it "all a ploy" to backstab Arthas.

[Cpike]

Ahahaha this storyline is completely flawed. At least with the Blood elves, there was reason why they would stay horde and not go with Kael. ...Forsaken's case? In generalization, they knew that something like this would go on. Various quests going on about a new plague. There has to be a missing link here.

They'll be betrayed by sudden amnesia? Not only this, but now there is no gray area. The baddies of the Horde were Forsaken and Sin'dorei. Obviously no longer Sin'dorei since the whole Burning crusade wrap up. THIS WILL MAKE THE HORDE ALL GOOD!

The Alliance still has the human supremacists. And some pompous squid saying he knows everything ahead of time but won't do a damn thing like a mental Mr. Miyagi. Remember, in generalization about the alignments that the A.D.D change with no consequence writers make. Not individual rp characters.

[Tillna]

It sounds like somethign that Ker Nad's and Jerg would be all over liek white on rice.

"A chance to kill thos ewhiney gits? I love it!"

[Alana]

this would be cool it it started at launch. i dont want to wait for another expansion to gank all my former Grim mates. Las knew this day would come! though... she thought the betrayal would be the other way around.

what would really be cool is if you could roll your undead with the Forsaken faction, or stay loyal to the "rest" of the Horde.

of course that was the "young" Las. she's more into the Grim than the horde now.

also i dont believe this could possible be permanent if true, it would screw horde raid guilds with players whose undead are key raid members.

[Yichimet]

Man, this game is fun and all, but the more they try to incorporate actual story into an MMO, the more I see this genre as a totally flawed vehicle for any sort of narrative with impact. Fucking terrible.

[NotMaithanet]

imo Raz called it.

[Grayslin]

THIS WILL MAKE THE HORDE ALL GOOD!
B-but... Trolls eat humans!

[Lisbet]

Nowhere does it say she's going to join the scourge. No where. She's defecting from the horde, possibly because she believes that they're not going to get the job done -- Kill/Stop Arthas.

[Raziel]

B-but... Trolls eat humans!

No they don't. Cannibalism is outlawed in the Horde and the Darkspear have stopped the practice for years.

They will shrink your head
they won't eat it,.

[Anthek]

The quote in the OP is wrong. It isn't Sylvanas that causes the event at Angrathar, where the Royal Apothecary Society unleashes it's new plague. The whole thing is orchestrated by Varimathras and someone named High Apothecary Putress. Sylvanas is apparently not responsible for it.

If you want another little bit of proof for it, read the new Ashbringer comic. It'll show how involved Varimathras is behind the scenes behind a lot of the manipulation of the Forsaken and even the Scarlet Crusade, as he had been commanding Balnazzar the whole time, as well as Mal'Ganis.

[Tirralys]

I like it, I hope it opens up the doors for a third 'faction', whether it be neutral or no. I want my ogres and goblins! >_< Goblin Death Knight, hoooooo!

[Grayslin]

No they don't. Cannibalism is outlawed in the Horde and the Darkspear have stopped the practice for years.

They will shrink your head
they won't eat it,.
Just the same, I think I'll stay away from their cooking pots.

[Raziel]

Just the same, I think I'll stay away from their cooking pots.

Other Tribes, the Horde does not control. Even friendly ones, like Zandali and Revantusk.

[Emmons]

There is only one way to describe my reaction to this:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l79/JeepJeep8/facepalm.jpg

[Nazshakul]

Yet again they go and make a cool Horde hero go evil. Tch...

[Yichimet]

The quote in the OP is wrong. It isn't Sylvanas that causes the event at Angrathar, where the Royal Apothecary Society unleashes it's new plague. The whole thing is orchestrated by Varimathras and someone named High Apothecary Putress. Sylvanas is apparently not responsible for it.

If you want another little bit of proof for it, read the new Ashbringer comic. It'll show how involved Varimathras is behind the scenes behind a lot of the manipulation of the Forsaken and even the Scarlet Crusade, as he had been commanding Balnazzar the whole time, as well as Mal'Ganis.

If this is true, I am much happier about it, and feeling much less like Emmons image below.

[Necroxis]

First of all: I called it! Go read the death knight RP thread and look at my last post.

Secondly: People need to stop freaking out. The quest doesn't say that Sylvanas is betraying the Horde and going to the Scourge. She does say "Death to the Scourge. Death to the Living!" however any idiot who quested in Tarren Mill knows that she was developing her plague to destroy the Scourge and turn the living into Forsaken.

If you read the quest texts and the information about this event RATIONALLY (note that word), then you can surmise a few things:

1.) At the Wrathgate, the Horde and Alliance start fighting each other

2.) Some of the heros for both the Horde and Alliance show up when the Lich King comes out, and they call him out.

3.) Slyvanas shows up with her "pet" Varimathras and she unleashes her plague.

***Here is where it gets fuzzy***

4.) Apparently Varimathras revolts with the Grand Apothecary Putress (wow...surprise?) and something happens in which Slyvanas is incapacitated. This explains why everyone is screaming at the Wrathgate (Once you're at the final phase of the Wrathgate)

**Also as a side note, blizzard uses their "phasing" technology here again to play out these events*

5.) The younger Saurfang is killed (maybe he will be revived under the Scourge as a boss?), and you take his armor back to his dad.

6.) Martial Law rules Orgrimmar as Thrall decides what to do about these events.

7.) He decides: Send Vol'jin and the players to UC to fight against Varimathras, Putress, and their revolters. It can be assumed that the Forsaken survivors of the revolt flee, possibly to Silvermoon.

This is where the questline ends. I wonder if the Alliance has any type of quest chains that involve these events, as the defection of Varimathras and the overthrowing of UC DOES effect them too... If not, then Horde players can now stop complaining that they don't get any cool quest chains.

People complained that Classic WoW had very little lore or just flavor lore
People then complained that BC broke the lore because Blizzard tried to change things.
Now people complain that the lore is utterly stupid when they actually make some world-lasting events occur.

I personally think these lore events are extremely badass. Blizzard trying to further the lore...good for them. I like most of what I have read so far

Last: Of course, this IS still Beta people...Blizzard can change whatever they want. Hell, the whole event isn't even finished yet and people are freaking out.

[Taknar]

That's the conclusion I've come to as well, which saddens me. I don't like the Dark Lady. Don't care what people say but when you get people to help you by promising something, and then go and not only reject that promise but murder them, that's evil. It wouldn't be "Sylvanas has turned evil! OMG not another one!", but more "Wow. After 4 years she's finally raised her army and doesn't need the Horde anymore. Shoulda seen that coming."

Also, boo on RAS. I hate Howling Fjord.

[Grayslin]

Yet again they go and make a cool Horde hero go evil. Tch...
Wasn't she kinda... already evil? What with the whole RAS plague thing?

[Emmons]

I'm not upset over the betrayal, I welcome it and think it's exciting.

I'm upset over the troll. They're putting a troll in charge of Undercity?

[Taknar]

I'm not upset over the betrayal, I welcome it and think it's exciting.

I'm upset over the troll. They're putting a troll in charge of Undercity?

Shit be crazy, mon!

[Keraph]

Yet again they go and make a cool Horde hero go evil. Tch...

To echo a previous question....what?

[Yichimet]

People complained that Classic WoW had very little lore or just flavor lore
People then complained that BC broke the lore because Blizzard tried to change things.
Now people complain that the lore is utterly stupid when they actually make some world-lasting events occur.


I dug the lore in vanilla WoW, but I can see why people complained--it was so static, and the only enemies of real consequence we the players fought, most of us never actually got to see because it was the last raid instance released right before an expansion.

BC has been, and this is my unmitigated opinion, a disaster for people who enjoyed the lore in this game. Blizzard didn't "try to change things." They trumped lore with game design decisions. That's really good business sense, and I'm glad they did it because it's made actually playing this game fun, but it fucking destroyed the atmosphere of Horde-side roleplay. I can't believe I'm about to admit this, but I don't like roleplaying with the Horde anymore. We really lost something when Silvermoon came around.

As far as #3, I was upset when I thought it was Sylvanas, since I spent an entire chapter of a WC3 expansion pack following her and her hatred of Arthas. It would have been another stupid, terrible retcon for Arthas to suddenly come back and RUHROH SYLVANAS HAS BEEN PLOTTING FOR HIM ALL ALONG. I'm glad it's the big V-man, because that demon's a douchebag who's had it coming all along.

[Keraph]

that demon's a douchebag who's had it coming all along.

Even if we weren't talking about anything before this sentance, this XD

[Amoola]

Why not put a Troll in charge of things when all hell breaks loose? Seriously Trolls aren't idiots like folks or their speech patterns make them out to be. Idiots don't out live enemies, world calamities, attempts at being made extinct, etc. They plot, plan and out wit.

Tauren did their best to stay ahead of those (the centaur) that were trying to put them on the extinct species list. Trolls ate their way through trouble. And there are hints that even though it is against the law (via Thrall) to canabilise, that there are those in the trollish race horde side who have just taken it underground and made it hush shush.

Either way the story in question goes I'll watch it and have fun. Seriously as someone else pointed out, who didn't see it coming?

[Keraph]

Yeah, but a filthy troll is a filthy troll. We need as few of you Lessers in our city as possible /nod

[Amoola]

Oh, yeah forgot.... you're in infection aren't you? :P

[Kyrion]

I really don't think they're going to make 3 factions......If anything they'll probably make the dark lady and V a raid boss......Like they did with Kael, as much as that would greatly upset Infection.

[Taknar]

Yeah, but a filthy troll is a filthy troll. We need as few of you Lessers in our city as possible /nod

Ya be meanin' owa city! Get ya ass ta Swamprat Post 'here ya belong!

[Grayslin]

I really don't think they're going to make 3 factions......If anything they'll probably make the dark lady and V a raid boss......Like they did with Kael, as much as that would greatly upset Infection.
Well, maybe they could post patrols and camp outside the entrance to her 'lair' and gank any alliance who try to enter. Dunno what they'd do about the horde though.

Though it's a moot point anyway, as it's big V.

[Necroxis]

BC has been, and this is my unmitigated opinion, a disaster for people who enjoyed the lore in this game. Blizzard didn't "try to change things." They trumped lore with game design decisions. That's really good business sense, and I'm glad they did it because it's made actually playing this game fun, but it fucking destroyed the atmosphere of Horde-side roleplay. I can't believe I'm about to admit this, but I don't like roleplaying with the Horde anymore. We really lost something when Silvermoon came around.


I don't understand what you mean, "They trumped the lore with game design decisions" ? You mean adding Blood Elves as a Horde faction? There was a large percentage of players in Classic WoW that felt that the Horde lacked some sophistication. Now, I don't have a lvl 70 horde, so maybe something just clicks in when you ding at max level, but I really didn't have that big of a problem with the RP horde side when they added Belves. ((As a note, I have a lvl 45 troll priest and a 35 Belf Mage). Maybe it was just this server that got you pissed?

From my observations, it seemed that people complained in Classic WoW about a lack of sophistication on the horde races, but then they turned around and complained about Belves when Blizzard added them in.

Whether people want to admit it or not, Blizzard DOES try to cater to what people want. For the most part I was happy with the lore. Maybe I didn't mind it because I played War3 and FT, but you said you did as well, I guess I'm not sure what happened to make our opinions differ though. In fact, I really loved the whole Sunwell and Kil'Jaeden event that happened.

Blizzard put it best when they said : "We wanted to try High Fantasy with WoW and we did with BC, but now we're back to Azeroth with WotLK"

I think there are people who really liked the BC lore and those who hated it. I didn't find EVERYTHING in BC to my liking, but I enjoyed most of it. And WotLK looks 50x better.




And thanks you, someone actually read my post. IT ISN'T SYLVANAS, IT IS VARIMATHRAS WHO BETRAYED THE FORSAKEN. Big surprise...

I don't know if anyone said this or not yet but: Go and read the new Ashbringer comics and you'll see that Varimathras has been manipulating a huge portion of the Forsaken all along. He's been working with Balnazzar and Mal'Ganis.

[Tirralys]

I don't understand what you mean, "They trumped the lore with game design decisions" ? You mean adding Blood Elves as a Horde faction? There was a large percentage of players in Classic WoW that felt that the Horde lacked some sophistication.

Nothing says 'sophistication' like a huge, hulking, two-headed ogre magi.

So...where are they? Time's a wasting! *taps his watch*

Edit - I found waldo in Emmons' picture! oh wait, that's just zelda...

[Yichimet]

I guess that's unclear, sorry. They've been trumping lore with game design decisions since the beginning, I guess (Forsaken in Horde WTF?). But yes, I was referring to the class/race balancing done by introducing our "pretty" race and paladin/shaman cross-faction stuff.

The Horde didn't need sophistication. I'm not sure I knew anybody who wanted sophistication. I think, and I'm making assumptive leaps based on your characters' levels, that you probably didn't spend as much time Horde-side as I did. I have two characters in this game--one a 58 tauren warrior and one a 70 tauren shaman. The tauren warrior was my character from my old PvE-RP server that I left behind when TN opened up. I've never played an Alliance character for more than, oh, four hours? But I loved the atmosphere of Horde roleplay on both servers I was on. It was grittier and felt less primadonna than it does now, and I apologize to my friends who play blood elves when I say that. (The expansion also drew a lot of Alliance to our side, which created a big hole in the way the factions interacted previously.)

I may be talking out my ass. People likely disagree with me. But the tone of Horde-side interaction changed with the expansion, both within our faction and against the Alliance, and I have to say that I don't think any of it changed for the better.

[Necroxis]

Well I have spent time playing the Horde. I've started multiple hordies of each race to try em out so its not like those two are my only horde characters. The only reason I even mentioned my horde guys were so that I had some validation and I was not talking completely out of my ass.

[Swerto]

The throne room is probably going to become instanced, and blocked off from the outside (like a cave-in or something). I doubt they'll be killing Undercity, it might even have a battle going on outside of it constantly (like shadow labrynth).

Sylvanas will probably be ruling from Northrend (as the faction leader present in that zone). Otherwise she might be sitting upstairs in the OLD throne room, with about 100 guards with her. Now that I think about it, that would be cool! Finally no more alliance running around the ruins of Lorderaan undetered.


Also Varimathras sucks balls, we've all known this forever.

And if Sylvanas DOES betray the horde, bet your ass Infection will be joining her (former and current).

[Leyujin]

Dynamic Lore changing things in-game has only one purpose worth mentioning.

Giving the Trolls a goddamn city! Seriously, throw out Sen'jin, put in a Troll Acropolis that makes Zul'Gurub weep, and give the Darkspears a proper home. Troll powa', Troll pride! Dere be a cause worth ma' time.

I agree with Yichimet, and I know at least a few others who do, but that's off topic.

Big question is does this lead to some sort of redemption scenario for Sylvanas? Apparently she's rendered... unconscious, or something. Varimathras would seem to be history once this storyline ultimately plays out, but who's the faction boss after that? Putting some random forsaken up there would be hugely lame, I think most would agree. There's no precedent, no hints leading up to it. Blizzard enjoys throwing Horde heroes and villains to the wolves, but I still don't see them destroying Sylvanas, Varimathras *and* Saurfang the Younger. (By the way, killing Saurfang the Elder would've been in my opinion taking things to the level of a Shakespearean tragic-farce and not "awesome lore for the Horde". Thank gods they aren't doing that. It's not building up a storyline when you axe half a faction's major NPCs, it's destroying it.)

I am glad they're doing things like this, if only because a world changes. Even if they do it clumsily, I doubt they can do a worse job than their lore management in much of TBC.

[Raziel]

It's like you guys forget what happened to Guk in Norrath when the Froglok's came

[Khorvis]

It's like you guys forget what happened to Guk in Norrath when the Froglok's came

Wow .. blast from the past

[Keraph]

Oh, yeah forgot.... you're in infection aren't you? :P

Aye, avatar is our tabard!


but who's the faction boss after that? Putting some random forsaken up there would be hugely lame, I think most would agree.

Which is why I am accepting nominations at this time for "King of Undercity".


It's like you guys forget what happened to Guk in Norrath when the Froglok's came

This is why I love you Raz

[Nadea]

Which is why I am accepting nominations at this time for "King of Undercity".



uhhh...excuse me? Undercity has always been female-run. The best suited leader for my beloved city would OBVIOUSLY be a Baroness, such as myself...

[Swerto]

Do I sense a fight for leadership coming? (IRL of course)

[Nadea]

Do I sense a fight for leadership coming? (IRL of course)

What, of Infection? We're both the leaders, though technically I hold the magical "GM" title :P

Or do you mean "who wears the pants in this relationship"? :O


So yeah...this whole thread is pure win. Im psyched for this whole thing! Its about time something changed for the Forsaken. I mean, Ive been playing Nadea for 3 years as a dedicated Forsaken, working along the RAS (she holds a decent rank among them, but not high enough that she would know any secrets or anything. Also, she thinks thier idiots). The Evil thing is wonderful to play and I love it, but a big change like this is something Ive *really* been looking forward to!

For the Dark Lady! FOR INFECTION! *cheers*

[Agnarr]

uhhh...excuse me? Undercity has always been female-run. The best suited leader for my beloved city would OBVIOUSLY be a Baroness, such as myself...

But where's your barony?

[EnheilRas]

But where's your barony?

OOOH NO YOU DIDN'T!

[Amoola]

*senses a good fight coming on and fills a bowl with popcorn and extra butter*

Anyone want some? :)

[Nadea]

>.>
<.<

[Redemptio]

That said, it was obvious that these guys didn't embody the spirit of honour that the Horde love... they are pretty flat out evil. I'm just concerned about the people like Infection that prefer to stay with the evil queen. I mean, how many Forsaken RP good people?


I resent this statement. Rede is one of the nicest undead/people you will ever meet!

<3s

[opalexian]

I don't understand what you mean, "They trumped the lore with game design decisions" ? You mean adding Blood Elves as a Horde faction? There was a large percentage of players in Classic WoW that felt that the Horde lacked some sophistication. Now, I don't have a lvl 70 horde, so maybe something just clicks in when you ding at max level, but I really didn't have that big of a problem with the RP horde side when they added Belves. ((As a note, I have a lvl 45 troll priest and a 35 Belf Mage). Maybe it was just this server that got you pissed?

From my observations, it seemed that people complained in Classic WoW about a lack of sophistication on the horde races, but then they turned around and complained about Belves when Blizzard added them in.

As a Horde lifer who played alli for a year, let me put it to you this way. People who wanted to play horde but wanted pretty characters complained. Some devs probably felt that way too. So they created the BElfs. Real horde either didn't care about being pretty or actively didn't want them, so it's changed a lot of the horde dynamic and made the faction more annoying for a lot of people. Add to that the alli defections that have occurred and hopefully you can see where it could be seen as lore-breaking. *poof!* miracle pretty people!

Another angle-alli has had 4 years to get used to the NElf infestation; we've only had a year to deal with ours. :p

I think more 'lore-breaking' has been

SQUID GOATS

FROM

SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE

[Necroxis]

As a Horde lifer who played alli for a year, let me put it to you this way. People who wanted to play horde but wanted pretty characters complained. Some devs probably felt that way too. So they created the BElfs. Real horde either didn't care about being pretty or actively didn't want them, so it's changed a lot of the horde dynamic and made the faction more annoying for a lot of people. Add to that the alli defections that have occurred and hopefully you can see where it could be seen as lore-breaking. *poof!* miracle pretty people!

Another angle-alli has had 4 years to get used to the NElf infestation; we've only had a year to deal with ours. :p

I think more 'lore-breaking' has been

SQUID GOATS

FROM

SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE

I can tell that you never played Warcraft III and FT, or you just completely forgot about them.

The Blood Elves were basically on their own after FT, and it only was logical that in WoW they would join the Horde, seeing as the Humans under Garithos tried to eradicate them.

And Draenei were definately in Warcraft III and FT, however they were Broken Draenei, not the pure kind. I do agree that they changed the Draenei a little, however in FT the player is only exposed to Akama's tribe of Draenei. Personally I had absolutely no problem accepting the pure Draenei's story, and this is from someone with a 70 Warlock and Paladin on the Alliance.

Most people who call the Draenei lore-breaking never played Warcraft 3 and FT or never played the Campaign.

[Visca]

I can tell that you never played Warcraft III and FT, or you just completely forgot about them.

The Blood Elves were basically on their own after FT, and it only was logical that in WoW they would join the Horde, seeing as the Humans under Garithos tried to eradicate them.

I agree with this. Alliance hate you? Go horde, if possible. Same reason the Undead would join, really. Also the fact that Sylvannas pretty much recruited them too (Added some more depth to the Dark Lady, something I like. Funny how I hate Arthas and yet love the Banshee Queen, eh?).

Actually, it doesn't seem 'Lore Breaking' at all to me, seeing as it was kinda set up for it in 'The Frozen Throne'. Maybe Blizz was planning to add them to the Horde all along? -shrugs-



And Draenei were definately in Warcraft III and FT, however they were Broken Draenei, not the pure kind. I do agree that they changed the Draenei a little, however in FT the player is only exposed to Akama's tribe of Draenei. Personally I had absolutely no problem accepting the pure Draenei's story, and this is from someone with a 70 Warlock and Paladin on the Alliance.

Most people who call the Draenei lore-breaking never played Warcraft 3 and FT or never played the Campaign.

This... I disagree with more. True you make some good points, but... they altered the lore, and made them The Good Guys. Which really is annoying. But, meh, they did some good things with them too. Even if it altered some things, to each his own?

[Amoola]

When it comes to the sqids joining the alliance I don't know if I would fault them. Didn't the Orcs (due to the whole taint thing) try to wipe them out? I mean who would you take sides with? The folks who tried to kill you or the folks fighting them?

[Raziel]

Most people who don't call the Draenei lore-breaking never read the backstory.

Fixed.

[Lisbet]

Quite literally, the reason the Draenei joined the alliance is because Night Elves and Humans are the first people they run into. If they had run into Tauren I'm sure they would have joined the horde instead ;x

[Raziel]

Quite literally, the reason the Draenei joined the alliance is because Night Elves and Humans are the first people they run into. If they had run into Tauren I'm sure they would have joined the horde instead ;x

which is weird, considering that they crashed landed and destroyed an entire island, and their ship was the source of alien corruption that endangered the wildlife and the Elves befriend them?

Orcs cut down some trees and they sick their fucking Demigod on them.

[Swerto]

Elves are racist against green people! I knew it!

[Pyrisath]

Quite literally, the reason the Draenei joined the alliance is because Night Elves and Humans are the first people they run into. If they had run into Tauren I'm sure they would have joined the horde instead ;x

Yes, and I am sure that the medium communicator of the Light that helped Human<->Draenei communications would only be exactly the same if some lamb chop happened upon their crash site, annihilating all the landscape, animals and plants around it.

[Necroxis]

Fixed.

Hmm...really? Because I know the backstory of the Draenei lol.

You act as if they destroyed the lore completely when they changed a few things in the Draenei story. There are actually only a few retcons with the Draenei...and who cares? Its Blizzard's lore, they can change it to whatever they want. At least they explain it in a way that fits in with the other lore of Warcraft.

Everything I said in defense of Blizzard was correct, so I don't know what your comment was suppose to mean.

Also, I'll add to the list of why Draenei chose Alliance over Horde (I'm bored so here's a comprehensive list)

1.) The Orcs on Draenor (Outland) nearly wiped out all of the Draenei. No longer tainted by Fel magic or not, the Draenei are not going to go running to the Orcs.

2.) In addition to #1, The Blood Elves kind of took up the mantle of destroying the Draenei after the Orcs stopped. Attacking and conquering their vessel (Tempest Keep), and forcing them to flee to Azeroth probably won't have the Draenei sitting down with the Blood Elves for afternoon tea.

3.) The Undead Forsaken are ghoulish looking (haha sorry UD guys), and they can't be too appealing to go up and hug and say "Lets be friends."

4.) Both Draenei and Humans/Dwarves believe in the Light so theres a connection right there

5.) Although the Draenei's crash landing of the Exodar caused catastrophic environmental damage to the area, they are very remorseful of the fact. This is shown by 3/4 of the Draenei starter quests having you clean up the mess they caused. I can see why the Night Elves would be pissed, but I can also see why they would accept their pleas for help.

6.) Although this was not stated, I think its reasonable to assume that the Gnomes accepted Draenei with open arms, if only to examine their technology :P

[Raziel]

They didn't change a few things.

They completely rewrote the foundation of the first three games. Metzen himself said he was wrong in doing it. He made a public post and APOLOGIZED.

But then he went through with it, so his apology was like a Proctologist apologizing for being out of Lubrication.

[Necroxis]

They didn't change a few things.

They completely rewrote the foundation of the first three games. Metzen himself said he was wrong in doing it. He made a public post and APOLOGIZED.

But then he went through with it, so his apology was like a Proctologist apologizing for being out of Lubrication.

Could you please explain how them changing the Draenei lore rewrote the foundation of the first three games?

Because lets see:

At the end of Frozen Throne:

Sylvanas and Varimathras just created the Forsaken

Thrall created Ogrimmar and Vol'jin and the Darkspears, along with Carine and the Tauren are his allies

Lordaeron is destroyed and the Humans there are basically gone

Night Elves went back to their homelands after their little tussle with Illidan and his Naga

Dwarves, Gnomes, and Humans are allies still because of their honor-bound alliance from the Second War.

Kael takes a good majority of the Blood Elves to Outland, and the rest that he leaves in Azeroth go back to Quel'Thalas to rebuild their homeland.

The broken Draenei are allied with Illidan, Kael, and Vashj and they become the rulers of Outland.

In WoW:

Sylvanas and Varimathras rule Undercity and the Forsaken are gaining power

Thrall, Carine, and Vol'jin and their respective factions are still allied

Lordaeron is under Forsaken control

Night Elves went back to their homeland and began cleansing the taint of the Burning Legion from their countryside.

Dwarves, Gnomes, and Humans are allies, along with the Night Elves who they were with very good terms after killing Archimonde.

Kael is in Outland and the Blood Elves he left in Azeroth rebuilt Silvermoon


Everything else majorly important to the storyline they created specifically FOR WoW. So they really didn't destroy anything else.

Also, Metzen apologized for the Draenei retcons, not the whole WoW storyline

[Taknar]

Anyone else find it superbly hypocritical of the Draenei to not be able to look past the corruption of the orcs when 2/3rds of their far more evolved race were corrupted in the same way and they never redeemed themselves?

[Necroxis]

Well I guess technically the ones who say that are the Draenei who have never been corrupted, but you are right :p

I guess being backed up by the Naaru allows you to be pompous

[EnheilRas]

The foundation of the Titans, the Burning Legion, the Corruption of Draenor, the War of the Ancients

All these things were changed. Hence, the background and foundation.

The stuff from which all things are built upon.

[Grev]

There are actually only a few retcons with the Draenei...and who cares? Its Blizzard's lore, they can change it to whatever they want.
This is a horrible defense and always drives me crazy, on any subject worth debating.

It's like when my local Wendy's took "Chili, Chips, & Cheese" off their menu. A friend was with me when I first made the discovery they had discontinued my favorite drunken snack, but shrugged it off by saying, "Oh well, it's their menu. They can do what they want, just don't eat here."

No, it doesn't work like that. I've been a loyal patron of this nacho delight since I was old enough to order off the menu on my own, and one day out of the blue sweet little Wendy decided to kick me in the balls and spit in my face in my most vulnerable state of intoxication.

Of course, I still eat at Wendy's often. Their cheeseburgers still do it for me, but I still have a little bitterness left in my heart from that fateful day. I still have that craving for nacho chips soaked in chili and cheese from time to time.

I imagine how this is how some loyalist of Warcraft feel. Whether they've been following the game since '94 or '02, they still have that confused sense of rejection concerning TBC lore.

It doesn't just belong to Blizzard and it doesn't belong to Wendy's. It also belongs to us.

[Lisbet]

If tomorrow they ret-conned Tyrande and Malfurions lovestory and made it so Malfurion loved a goat and saved the world by having sex with it upside down naked in the middle of stormwind while singing marry had a little lamb, I wouldn't be this pissed off as you guys are about Blizzard changing Draenei's from Native to Not.


Come on guys, get over it already and move on. Old news is old, and cranky old men are unbecoming when they're 20.

[Nadea]

This is a horrible defense and always drives me crazy, on any subject worth debating.

It's like when my local Wendy's took "Chili, Chips, & Cheese" off their menu. A friend was with me when I first made the discovery they had discontinued my favorite drunken snack, but shrugged it off by saying, "Oh well, it's their menu. They can do what they want, just don't eat here."

No, it doesn't work like that. I've been a loyal patron of this nacho delight since I was old enough to order off the menu on my own, and one day out of the blue sweet little Wendy decided to kick me in the balls and spit in my face in my most vulnerable state of intoxication.

Of course, I still eat at Wendy's often. Their cheeseburgers still do it for me, but I still have a little bitterness left in my heart from that fateful day. I still have that craving for nacho chips soaked in chili and cheese from time to time.

I imagine how this is how some loyalist of Warcraft feel. Whether they've been following the game since '94 or '02, they still have that confused sense of rejection concerning TBC lore.

It doesn't just belong to Blizzard and it doesn't belong to Wendy's. It also belongs to us.


Seriously Grev, I <3 you.

[Swerto]

As a Star Wars fan, and roleplayer I'm used to the universe getting retconned and me having to subsequently retcon my roleplays to fit in with the changes. WoW never really changed the universe as astronomicly as SW did, they changed the time of the Clone Wars from 35 BBY to 21 BBY... that's a 10 year difference in the age of my character!!!!!

All WoW did was change a few dates by a couple years, change a few people's home planet, and add in some stuff you never heard of. Just RP someone who would be oblivious to that information and you'll be fine. WOHOO SPACE GOATS!

[Shadowspeak]

What I want to know is how Ogres reproduce. There's not a single female Ogre model in the game. I'm guessing the two headed ones split into two ogres at some point? *shrug*

[Lythas]

What I want to know is how Ogres reproduce. There's not a single female Ogre model in the game. I'm guessing the two headed ones split into two ogres at some point? *shrug*

See, that's like the topic of undead babies. We just don't want to go there. :[

[opalexian]

I think this says it best. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/software-computers-video-games-d-d-utilities/161801-wow-expansion-alliance-race-announced.html#post2820966) The draenei were retconned, EVEN IN OFFICIAL WOW LORE their origins are confused. Were they demons first or not (more specifically Sargeras.) And yes, that is a foundation of WoW lore, Sargeras' rampage around the universe. LOL space goats. :p

[Khorvis]

In the end, you either accept the retcon or you say eff this. No one is holding a gun to your head to make you play, unless of course you're like me, merrily playing Everquest year in and year out. Then your girlfriend gets a copy of WoW and it's all over. Make the best of it and enjoy how the story unfolds. That's my motto.

[Morgenstern]

Gnomes also don't have mass public orgies. Obviously Blizzard has priorities in mind.


You obviously haven't seen Riggard on a Friday night.

[Necroxis]

The foundation of the Titans, the Burning Legion, the Corruption of Draenor, the War of the Ancients

All these things were changed. Hence, the background and foundation.

The stuff from which all things are built upon.

I don't know what you are referring to about the Titans, because I don't know what they changed about it except that instead of Sargeras being corrupted by the Eredar, it was the opposite away around.

That point is the same for the Burning Legion, as well as the Corruption of Draenor.

And the War of the Ancients....I sure hope you aren't talking about Knaak. That guy is an idiot, although I do still like Rhonin :P But I'd have to agree with you there. BTW, WoW didn't change anything about the War of the Ancients, it expanded upon it.



If tomorrow they ret-conned Tyrande and Malfurions lovestory and made it so Malfurion loved a goat and saved the world by having sex with it upside down naked in the middle of stormwind while singing marry had a little lamb, I wouldn't be this pissed off as you guys are about Blizzard changing Draenei's from Native to Not.


Come on guys, get over it already and move on. Old news is old, and cranky old men are unbecoming when they're 20.

<3 you Lisbet. That is basically how I feel in a nutshell.

[Raziel]

I don't know what you are referring to about the Titans, because I don't know what they changed about it except that instead of Sargeras being corrupted by the Eredar, it was the opposite away around.

That point is the same for the Burning Legion, as well as the Corruption of Draenor.

And the War of the Ancients....I sure hope you aren't talking about Knaak. That guy is an idiot, although I do still like Rhonin :P But I'd have to agree with you there. BTW, WoW didn't change anything about the War of the Ancients, it expanded upon it.

I'm talking about Brox. The fact that he wounded Sargeras in a fight before he died was the original reason why Mannoroth was sent to find the Planet to turn the Orcs into an Army to invade Azeroth so the Legion could suck the Magic from the Planet.

Not because the Draenei, or whatever the hell their real race's name is, landed there and they wanted the Orcs to take them out. That doesn't even make any chronological sense! Draenei are Eredar, so they're demons in my book. Because the Book said there were only two Demon Races. Everything else was corrupted by Fel and become Demonic, but there were only two Demon Races: Eredar & Nath'Rezim. So that's how I see 'em. Those'd be the shots.

It was the acts of these demons that drove Sargeras mad. He just did not fathom creatures destroying for the sake of destroying.

You take that away by saying that there's no Eredar, and Sargeras corrupted Draenei to become Eredar, and what the hell man? That makes no chronological sense! Blizzard fucking divided by Zero with the Draenei bullshit. They know it too, but they're just not going to take it back, and they told us to live with it, so we gotta live with it. We'll be bitter though.

[Pelerin]

I love love love the banding together of Alliance & Horde to break down Arthas' front door. It harkens back to WC3 and Hyjal... sure, we have our differences and squabbles, but when something threatens Azeroth, we team up to smack it down. Sort of like a big dysfunctional family.

There are tons of lowbie quests that hint at Sylvanas dropping the plague on all of us fleshies (regardless of faction) when her RAS finally worked out a solution to make everything Forsaken. The Dark Lady is an ambitious one (and I love her for it).

We also knew that Varimathas was the betraying sort... hard to not be, when you're sort of forced into service and made to "kill" your brother. Besides, dreadlords are scummy anyway.

I got the chance to experience Blizzard's new "phasing" toy last night in the DK starting area, and it makes for incredible storytelling ability. I'd wager that will be used in UC for this battle, Org for the invasion, etc. You can't blow them up completely, since new players will have to have capital cities.

Whoever pieced together a continuation (and culmination?) of all the pumpkin-fetching/guano-digging/etc quests deserves massive kudos.

[Grev]

Seriously Grev, I <3 you.
I must confess I was drunk off my ass when I wrote that. Too much Jager.

[Grisch]

I love love love the banding together of Alliance & Horde to break down Arthas' front door. It harkens back to WC3 and Hyjal... sure, we have our differences and squabbles, but when something threatens Azeroth, we team up to smack it down. Sort of like a big dysfunctional family.

Woah wait! Explain, this sounds interesting.

Is it banding together in the blah blah we just have the same quests but we can still kill each other while doing them, sort of like the Scourge invasion?

Or is there more of an active dynamic of horde and alliance working together in the game?



I got the chance to experience Blizzard's new "phasing" toy last night in the DK starting area, and it makes for incredible storytelling ability. I'd wager that will be used in UC for this battle, Org for the invasion, etc. You can't blow them up completely, since new players will have to have capital cities.


Phasing toy? Eh wot? Explain or give me a link! I require information or I shall be displeased!

EDIT: Ah, never mind. Google is my friend. I found the phasing stuff. Cool idea if used properly. Great possibilities of completely screwing things up as well though if not done properly.

Still interested in the Horde/Alliance working together thing though.

[Taknar]

Still interested in the Horde/Alliance working together thing though.

Think AQ opening Grisch. Just like that.

No, you don't have to be nice to the Alliance.

[Grisch]

Aah! AQ opening.. ok got it. Less a case of working WITH the other side, than the ability to be an utter prick while justifying it with 'PvP'.

Ok, understood.

I'll try and see that one on a non-PvP server.

[Yatokth]

Aah! AQ opening.. ok got it. Less a case of working WITH the other side, than the ability to be an utter prick while justifying it with 'PvP'.

Ok, understood.

I'll try and see that one on a non-PvP server.

Prick vs. Prick

Know your acronyms imo.

[Lisbet]

I'm talking about Brox. The fact that he wounded Sargeras in a fight before he died was the original reason why Mannoroth was sent to find the Planet to turn the Orcs into an Army to invade Azeroth so the Legion could suck the Magic from the Planet.

Not because the Draenei, or whatever the hell their real race's name is, landed there and they wanted the Orcs to take them out. That doesn't even make any chronological sense! Draenei are Eredar, so they're demons in my book. Because the Book said there were only two Demon Races. Everything else was corrupted by Fel and become Demonic, but there were only two Demon Races: Eredar & Nath'Rezim. So that's how I see 'em. Those'd be the shots.

It was the acts of these demons that drove Sargeras mad. He just did not fathom creatures destroying for the sake of destroying.

You take that away by saying that there's no Eredar, and Sargeras corrupted Draenei to become Eredar, and what the hell man? That makes no chronological sense! Blizzard fucking divided by Zero with the Draenei bullshit. They know it too, but they're just not going to take it back, and they told us to live with it, so we gotta live with it. We'll be bitter though.



Actually the blizzard's "new draenei" lore says that Sargares ordered Kil'Jaden to find a corruptable army that could distroy azeroth, and he accidentally ran into the Draenei and used it as an oportunity to wipe out his greatest enemy ;p



but, details, right?


I get why your mad, but its JUST a game, and if they want to retrofit a new race, even if its an old race, into their storyline, so be it. Maybethere was already great evil in the Eredar society, why else would they all be so ready to jump in bed with Sargeres? They didn't write all of that story, and only say that Velen prayed to the heavens for an answer, and were responded to by the Na'ru. Previous to that, they really could have been assfases who had a handfull of nice people scattered with and throughout. Why not? The Draenei are a minority of a minority, their whole group fit inside oshugun, so there obviously wasn't that many to begin with.

[Pelerin]

Woah wait! Explain, this sounds interesting.

Is it banding together in the blah blah we just have the same quests but we can still kill each other while doing them, sort of like the Scourge invasion?

Or is there more of an active dynamic of horde and alliance working together in the game?



Granted the quests aren't implemented, but this (http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=15888.0) (lisbet's link) sounds like working together ala Shattered Sun or Hyjal. Granted, I wasn't playing the game when AQ was going on, so ganking and pvp could happen... but it'd certainly not be in the spirit of Blizz's intentions though.

[Lisbet]

Plunking this in the lore section cause we're discussing lore and thats what its forrrrr!!!

[Amaurn]

I allways knew verimathras never killed his brother (Well we know from Strat of course) and that he knew he didnt kill him. Be interesting to see what quest hub npc they will have for his quests.

Its a DAMN good job Sylvanus doesnt go rogue, because Amaurn would likely kill his former (living) friends in a heartbeat if she gave the order, also because ripping peoples organs out is "Intellectually enlightening" (course none of his friends will ever know this! So dont try to RP this at me people!) Fact is most undead would be of a similar vein because she gave them their freedom. And to be frank... theres no reason why she couldnt take it back, or if she couldnt/wouldnt the loyalty they have to her from freeing them would in the vast majority of cases be enough.

Still potentially very interesting RP depending how it falls out and would create some interesting decisions for us deadies. We have allways held a certain ammount of disdain for the living but even heartless bastards like Amaurn have at least grown used to people and working with the horde itself and so may not be as immediate to kill former friends as i firstly said.

[Cessily]

(...) Just RP someone who would be oblivious to that information and you'll be fine. WOHOO SPACE GOATS!

This is exactly how I feel.

Take this as an oportunity to RP something you didn't see coming (and I know many RPers here are Lore lovers. I am too. But too many characters know the lore 100%, like they had read WoW Books and stuffs.).

Big changes like this give great opportunities for RP, specially for the Forsaken, who are usually pretty set in stone as characters, as far as I've seen.

On this note...

/target Vol'jin
/target Forsaken
/laugh

[Amaurn]

/target Vol'jin
/target Forsaken
/laugh

*smack*

[Taknar]

If you prefer you could be occupied by the Tauren. I'm sure the Forsaken will love their "Earth Mother Aura."

*grins*

[Keraph]

If you prefer you could be occupied by the Tauren. I'm sure the Forsaken will love their "Earth Mother Aura."

*grins*

Actually, I'd be A-OK with that, were it Grimtotem. It was they who originally aided us in becoming a part of the Horde.

[Rai]

The nerd rage of some people when they are discovering a retcon in a fictional story is simply amusing. I mean you really have to wonder what story they were in love with before they had warcraft because there are none that are perfect and avoid such rewrites and contradictions. None! Where are these impossible standards coming from?! As far as retcons in warcraft go, Draenei weren't the first (or the worst).

I have to say that I love what Metzen did for it with them. The new story turned the vague origins of Sargaras into an actual history of one of the primary races in the burning legion and example of the burning legions' corrupting invasions. It essentially turned the simple chalkboard concept that was the legion's history and made it better. Not only that but they actually enabled a real history to be given to the orcs too instead of some vague "A to B" background.

And Metzen didn't say he shouldn't have done it when he apologized, obviously because he liked the changes too.

[Yatokth]

The nerd rage of some people when they are discovering a retcon in a fictional story is simply amusing. I mean you really have to wonder what story they were in love with before they had warcraft because there are none that are perfect and avoid such rewrites and contradictions. None! Where are these impossible standards coming from?! As far as retcons in warcraft go, Draenei weren't the first (or the worst).

I have to say that I love what Metzen did for it with them. The new story turned the vague origins of Sargaras into an actual history of one of the primary races in the burning legion and example of the burning legions' corrupting invasions. It essentially turned the simple chalkboard concept that was the legion's history and made it better. Not only that but they actually enabled a real history to be given to the orcs too instead of some vague "A to B" background.

And Metzen didn't say he shouldn't have done it when he apologized, obviously because he liked the changes too.

This.

I like Blizz's story and what they've done with it - they just didn't integrate it into TBC too well. LK looks shittons better.

[Kiaransalius]

I will now admit I ended up scanning at least half of this thread as I got lost in text... but reading the IP it seems to me this is nothing surprising....

Its known the Forsaken have wanted to make everyone like them with and crush the Scourge. The dialog seems to merely put the event in motion. I can not look at the link from work, so maybe I am missing something... but the Banshee Queen is merely calling out Arthas and revealing the plot to make all the living Forsaken. Sure this is betrayal to the rest of the Horde, but to the forsaken players (and anyone that has done the quests for the new plague) it was a long time coming!

While I would love a third faction, I doubt it will happen. Horde martial law, with a disdain and distrust to any Forsaken not willing to be as zealous as Sylvanas (the PCs that Blizz are forcing to "betray" their Queen, like the BE's were forced to hate Kael). Then again, I am on 3 hours sleep and am talking out of my ass from work.

[Rai]

well even from the text above, i have heard the quest chain is not involving the queen's betrayal but a betrayal of the queen. I cannot remember all the posts here anymore either but a few people like Anthek already brought it up. I'm not in beta to say one way or the other, but it seems more likely that Sylvanas is the one betrayed and will keep her undead as part of the horde by the time this is all through. We all know she is using them and cares nothing for the living of any race, but short term she still wants the horde's help it getting rid of the scourge. Only then will she probably use whatever new plague she has been working on and take care of the living (presuming it is ready).

Lore reasons aside, blizz probably doesn't want to separate the undead form the horde. Things are messy enough with 2 player factions.

[Necroxis]

The nerd rage of some people when they are discovering a retcon in a fictional story is simply amusing. I mean you really have to wonder what story they were in love with before they had warcraft because there are none that are perfect and avoid such rewrites and contradictions. None! Where are these impossible standards coming from?! As far as retcons in warcraft go, Draenei weren't the first (or the worst).

I have to say that I love what Metzen did for it with them. The new story turned the vague origins of Sargaras into an actual history of one of the primary races in the burning legion and example of the burning legions' corrupting invasions. It essentially turned the simple chalkboard concept that was the legion's history and made it better. Not only that but they actually enabled a real history to be given to the orcs too instead of some vague "A to B" background.

And Metzen didn't say he shouldn't have done it when he apologized, obviously because he liked the changes too.

<3

Yes, yes, and more yes.

[Anthek]

The final quests are now working on the beta.

Varimathras and Putress are the ones responsible for unleashing the new plague at Angrathar. It kills much of the Horde and Alliance gathered there, including Saurfang the Younger and Bolvar Fordragon. Varian Wrynn nearly declares war on the Horde, thinking them responsible for it, but Jaina Proudmoore acts as a go-between for him and Thrall to prevent it. Varimathras attempts an assassination on Sylvanas, and takes over the Undercity, although she survives and escapes. It ends with a huge battle at the Undercity, with Varimathras having overrun it with demons and his personal force of undead. Thrall, Vol'jin, and Sylvanas team up to lead the Horde forces, and King Wrynn even joins in, with Jaina having teleported in Alliance to bring down Varimathras and Putress. The dreadlord is trying to summon another, more powerful leader of the Burning Legion, but is killed before he can complete it. Putress puts up a fight by using a giant worm, and is also killed. Fighting breaks out between Varian and Thrall, however, and Jaina is forced to teleport everyone away to end it.

[Izrail]

The final quests are now working on the beta.

Varimathras and Putress are the ones responsible for unleashing the new plague at Angrathar. It kills much of the Horde and Alliance gathered there, including Saurfang the Younger and Bolvar Fordragon. Varian Wrynn nearly declares war on the Horde, thinking them responsible for it, but Jaina Proudmoore acts as a go-between for him and Thrall to prevent it. Varimathras attempts an assassination on Sylvanas, and takes over the Undercity, although she survives and escapes. It ends with a huge battle at the Undercity, with Varimathras having overrun it with demons and his personal force of undead. Thrall, Vol'jin, and Sylvanas team up to lead the Horde forces, and King Wrynn even joins in, with Jaina having teleported in Alliance to bring down Varimathras and Putress. The dreadlord is trying to summon another, more powerful leader of the Burning Legion, but is killed before he can complete it. Putress puts up a fight by using a giant worm, and is also killed. Fighting breaks out between Varian and Thrall, however, and Jaina is forced to teleport everyone away to end it.

This sounds fantastic, thanks for sharing.

[Sinje]

Noooo, not Bolvar Fordragon!

[Necroxis]

The final quests are now working on the beta.

Varimathras and Putress are the ones responsible for unleashing the new plague at Angrathar. It kills much of the Horde and Alliance gathered there, including Saurfang the Younger and Bolvar Fordragon. Varian Wrynn nearly declares war on the Horde, thinking them responsible for it, but Jaina Proudmoore acts as a go-between for him and Thrall to prevent it. Varimathras attempts an assassination on Sylvanas, and takes over the Undercity, although she survives and escapes. It ends with a huge battle at the Undercity, with Varimathras having overrun it with demons and his personal force of undead. Thrall, Vol'jin, and Sylvanas team up to lead the Horde forces, and King Wrynn even joins in, with Jaina having teleported in Alliance to bring down Varimathras and Putress. The dreadlord is trying to summon another, more powerful leader of the Burning Legion, but is killed before he can complete it. Putress puts up a fight by using a giant worm, and is also killed. Fighting breaks out between Varian and Thrall, however, and Jaina is forced to teleport everyone away to end it.

Nooo! Fordragon dies!?!!?!?!?! :(((((( He was one of my favorite characters that they just introduced with WoW. Damn that Varimathras! HE WILL PAY!

[Taknar]

Nooo! Fordragon dies!?!!?!?!?! :(((((( He was one of my favorite characters that they just introduced with WoW. Damn that Varimathras! HE WILL PAY!

And reactions like this are how we know that the lore in this expansion pack will be well liked and effective. ;D

[Necroxis]

The final quests are now working on the beta.

Varimathras and Putress are the ones responsible for unleashing the new plague at Angrathar. It kills much of the Horde and Alliance gathered there, including Saurfang the Younger and Bolvar Fordragon. Varian Wrynn nearly declares war on the Horde, thinking them responsible for it, but Jaina Proudmoore acts as a go-between for him and Thrall to prevent it. Varimathras attempts an assassination on Sylvanas, and takes over the Undercity, although she survives and escapes. It ends with a huge battle at the Undercity, with Varimathras having overrun it with demons and his personal force of undead. Thrall, Vol'jin, and Sylvanas team up to lead the Horde forces, and King Wrynn even joins in, with Jaina having teleported in Alliance to bring down Varimathras and Putress. The dreadlord is trying to summon another, more powerful leader of the Burning Legion, but is killed before he can complete it. Putress puts up a fight by using a giant worm, and is also killed. Fighting breaks out between Varian and Thrall, however, and Jaina is forced to teleport everyone away to end it.

Also: Wow.....FINALLY Jaina is doing something else besides sitting in Theramore waiting to be killed...

[Anthek]

Nooo! Fordragon dies!?!!?!?!?! :(((((( He was one of my favorite characters that they just introduced with WoW. Damn that Varimathras! HE WILL PAY!

It's the reason why Varian is so pissed off.

[Okhu]

I question how this is going to all work out o_0...wtfs going to happen to everyone whos logged off in Undercity?

[Keraph]

I question how this is going to all work out o_0...wtfs going to happen to everyone whos logged off in Undercity?

CHARACTER DELETION

[opalexian]

the event is apparently supposed to be dynamic, so it only happens for those that are actually on the quest. My question tho is if Varimathras and Bolvar then disappear for those people who have completed it and if so, then how will city raids work for them? o_O

[Taknar]

the event is apparently supposed to be dynamic, so it only happens for those that are actually on the quest. My question tho is if Varimathras and Bolvar then disappear for those people who have completed it and if so, then how will city raids work for them? o_O

If you can see them, kill them. Eventually it will get to the point where everyone in your raid will be at the same point; the phasing happens on fairly major quests that people aren't likely to skip. At that point, no one will have Varimathras in UC and Bolvar is already been moved to Northrend I believe since the king has returned.

[NotMaithanet]

Their dynamic events are really, really well done.

I cant believe they're killing off Bolvar. Saurfang the Younger doesnt really compare to Bolvar.

[Advurb]

The phasing is awesome, I was doing the DK quests and I was amazed by it.

[Raziel]

Their dynamic events are really, really well done.

I cant believe they're killing off Bolvar. Saurfang the Younger doesnt really compare to Bolvar.

Yon King Wrynn be there to replace the sorry sod!

[Haqin]

I tried reading all comment to see if someone already posted what I'm about to say, but I must admit I didn't read it all. Too many off-topic posts.

What I've read (somewhere, sometime ago) is that Sylvanas will move to Northrend leaving Undercity under Varimathras control. What happens next is Varimathras taking control of the city (be it for The Legion or The Lich King), once Sylvanas is not there to threat him. His evil plots are destroyed (by some horde kids and their damn dog .__.) and Thrall puts Vol'jin as Undercity leader.
(probably until Sylvanas is back, after Arthas/LK final death)

[Leyujin]

What I want to know is whether this event changes Sylvanas' outlook on the Horde, and "lifers" in general. I'd have to imagine it helps tie the Forsaken to the Horde in some fashion.

[NotMaithanet]

Yon King Wrynn be there to replace the sorry sod!

IMO, and I STRESS IMO, the model for him looks terrible, his actions are terrible, and if he's the reason we all go to war I might just have to pray for defection quests.

[Chikt]

Does this mean that we get to team up with Infection to assault the Undercity?!

HOORAY!

[Broxigan]

I tried reading all comment to see if someone already posted what I'm about to say, but I must admit I didn't read it all. Too many off-topic posts.

What I've read (somewhere, sometime ago) is that Sylvanas will move to Northrend leaving Undercity under Varimathras control. What happens next is Varimathras taking control of the city (be it for The Legion or The Lich King), once Sylvanas is not there to threat him. His evil plots are destroyed (by some horde kids and their damn dog .__.) and Thrall puts Vol'jin as Undercity leader.
(probably until Sylvanas is back, after Arthas/LK final death)

SPOILER!!!!!!































Sylvanas actually goes with you on the assault of Undercity. It is you, Thrall, Sylvanas and Vol'jin. You head in through the front gates and work your way down to the Royal Chambers while the Alliance goes through the Sewers and attacks someone else who will remain nameless.

[Amoola]

I DON'T WANT TO WAIT UNTIL NOV FOR ALL THIS FUN STUFF!!!!!!!

*twitch*

[Taknar]

I'm with you Amoola.

Now that I know where the Alliance are coming in from, I want to go and beat them up before they get into the city hehe

[Swerto]

SPOILER!!!!!!































Sylvanas actually goes with you on the assault of Undercity. It is you, Thrall, Sylvanas and Vol'jin. You head in through the front gates and work your way down to the Royal Chambers while the Alliance goes through the Sewers and attacks someone else who will remain nameless.


-cough- SPOILERS




















The entire quest is up on wowwiki. The Alliance kill Putress and the Horde kill Varimathras. Afterwards the Alliance and Horde end up confronting eachother in the royal quarter and you get ready to fight when Proudmore (the uber carebear) comes and stops the fight by teleporting the alliance to Stormwind.


It's quite the interesting quest.

[Broxigan]

I was, you know...kind of trying to hold off on spilling all the details Swerto...

[Taknar]

The thing I am curious about is that I never saw any Alliance members fighting when I did the quest. It was all NPCs with the King. On the Horde side, the King throws Putress' head at the Horde team and declares war, then a bit of fighting goes on and Jaina teleports them all out followed by Thrall and Saurfang having a good heart to heart. This makes it seem like Horde and Alliance will always do this event seperately.

This also means I'd love to see exactly what happens with the Alliance. *jumps over to wowwiki*

[Taknar]

I was, you know...kind of trying to hold off on spilling all the details Swerto...

I've generally tried to do the same thing but in a thread so overwhelmed with spoiler warnings, if people don't want to know and are still reading this thread then they deserve to have things spoiled.

[Amoola]

LOL Tak! XD

Yeah, kind of wish it was a alliance on horde or vica versa kind of deal. :)

Ah, well. I am counting the days.

[Raziel]

Thrall says: It ends like it began...
Thrall says: All that we have fought for in this world is lost. The hopes and dreams carried by my father and mother... by Doomhammer... Gone...
Thrall says: If only you were here right now, old friend. You would know what to do.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I know what he would do.
High Overlord Saurfang says: He would say to you what I am about to say to you: Thrall. Lead your people.
High Overlord Saurfang says: Let's go home, old friend.
Thrall nods.
Thrall says: It's good to have you back, Varok, old friend. I'm sorry about your boy.

[opalexian]

Screenshots of the hordeside event (http://community.livejournal.com/wow_ladies/7022850.html#cutid1) yay

If you go there and somehow don't want to be spoiled well...you reap what you sew. :p

[Keraph]

Screenshots of the hordeside event (http://community.livejournal.com/wow_ladies/7022850.html#cutid1) yay

If you go there and somehow don't want to be spoiled well...you reap what you sew. :p

Faaaaaaaaaaantastic, danke.

[Yichimet]

I got half-way through to Thrall's speech and decided to stop right there.

Holy fucking shit am I looking forward to this expansion pack now. I rescind all my previous griping in this thread.

[Amoola]

All I had to see (and I was only looking at the pictures and not reading the better part of the writer's text) was Thrall calling the earth.

You can not see the huge ass grin on my face.

Now I need to go and change my pant.... pardon.

[The Avatar of Blue]

Just to correct the original post, its not Sylvanas who's speaking at the gate, it's Putris.

[Mareeya]

I did the event last night in beta. The entire quest line.

So many shiver and goosebumps. :3

[Rai]

I'm talking about Brox. The fact that he wounded Sargeras in a fight before he died was the original reason why Mannoroth was sent to find the Planet to turn the Orcs into an Army to invade Azeroth so the Legion could suck the Magic from the Planet.I know I'm digging it up, but only recently did I reread the trilogy this is brought up in and I thought I would correct you. Nowhere in the book does it say Mannoroth was sent to find anyone after Brox's axe met with Sargeras' flesh. Unless this is picked up in some other story (and I've read about 90% of the books), there is no timeline discrepancy between the tale told in war of the ancients and the newer draenei/orc lore. None. In fact, Mannoroth isn’t even in the story after the event in which you speak. He was sucked back into the well before all this.


You take that away by saying that there's no Eredar, and Sargeras corrupted Draenei to become Eredar, and what the hell man? That makes no chronological sense! Blizzard fucking divided by Zero with the Draenei bullshit. They know it too, but they're just not going to take it back, and they told us to live with it, so we gotta live with it. We'll be bitter though.Well it makes sense if you remember that they were called Eredar when they were still pure draenei-looking (non-demonic) creatures. Then they were turned, and those that fled to avoid corruption decided to change their names with their society’s transformation and only then did the term ‘draenei’ come about. Draenei are the same creatures they were before Sargeras showed up, just the eredar that are not demon corrupted merely call themselves draenei as part of their new identity (and so people now-a-days don’t think them demons of the legion).

[Taknar]

Thread Necro! WOOOOO!!!

Anyone know where I can get a youtube video or something like that of the Alliance side of the wrath gate questline? I'm very curious as to how it all goes down.

[Yatokth]

So this questline PWNED.

Thrall's damage buff was epic, I was popping 40k Execute crits. XD

[Swerto]

Alliance Side (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ujLdOcve6I)
Part TWO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVF3ydaYtoM&feature=related)

and if it's too hard to read text THE ENTIRE QUEST (http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:The_Battle_For_The_Undercity_(Alliance))