To the Paladins

[Fhenrir]

You are easy mode.


Blizzcon (http://paladineasymode.ytmnd.com/)

Mute this one (the loop is obnoxious, but the post is gold) (http://palliesarepriests.ytmnd.com/)

[Vilmah]

I've been saying it for YEARS...

[Abric]

What, BLIZZCON?

Ah, I remember that... that slide made people laugh.

...

And I got to put up my famous photo. And ninja Fhenrir's thread.

http://www.blizzcon.com/imageviewer.shtml?http://www.blizzcon.com/photos.shtml?19@20,/images/screenshots/,41,317,http://www.blizzcon.com/photos.shtml?19@20

Ze link! It's as big as an e-peen!

[Chingaso]

L2URL nub... :twisted:

[Mortica]

Abric is a murloc IRL?

*blinks*

*nods knowingly*

[Sanrin]

Both old news. I dont need a post it to know that shamans are horde ez.


I consider paladins a less cool version of...othello?

[EnheilRas]

Both old news. I dont need a post it to know that shamans are horde ez.


I consider paladins a less cool version of...othello?

I don't believe Shaman's are easy at all.

I'm considered one of the best Elemental Shamans on the server though, so perhaps I'm just good at it?

It's all about knowing the full potential of the class.

A lot of shamans never use things like Flametongue Totems when they need Grace of Air. They don't use Sentry Totems in Warsong. THey use.. Stoneskin (Which I think should be +Defense rather than -Damage). 90% of Shaman don't realize that Rank 1 Magma totem is only 280 mana and will stop any flag assaulting for 20 seconds.

So.. yeah.. it's just a generalization that any class you don't like must be too easy to play, yes?

Enjoy your backfield healing plateboy. I Windfury Enhance and fight Magmadar IN HIS FACE.

[Vilmah]

Yeeeaaahhh... shamans aren't easy. Have you SEEN how many freaking options you have as a shaman?? They're bloody well useful and fun, but they're not like Paladins.

"Oh no! I'm gonna die!" *bubble*

"Oh no! I'm in trouble!" *heal*

"Oh no! I've got a lot of guys on me!" *plate mail*

"Oh no! I'm not strong enough!" *buff*

"Oh no! I can't use that weapon!" *anything but wands*

List goes on... and on... and on.

[Hifazat]

Shaman's aren't easy? Right. One automatic rez. One automatic hearth. 7 critical abilities, that either increase attack power, or decrease cast time or decrease mana. Name any other class that has both buffs in one talent key. Lets not even start on the amount of instant casts shaman's have.

As for Paladins, it may be considered easy to play, but playing it right is extremely difficult.

Sadly in my opinion compared to all other games the paladin in WoW is the most gimped class.

[Sanrin]

Reason i say shamans are easy is because they have utility. Same reason why Paladins are so. Im low on mana? judgement/blessing/seal of wisdom. Need more hp? Judgement/seal of light. Need attack power? 30% less agro on particular party members? clearing of all agro? Healing? Dps? I can fit nearly any role so i can enter groups easilly and I do all of those things well...obviously depending on build. Shamans are the same way in my opinion, though where Paladins are a bit more heal heavy Shamans take more offensive power.

A totem to slow, to single target dps, to aoe dps, to increase weapon damage, to gain back mana, to redirect spells..etc etc. Perhaps of they were effected by AoE this would be another story, but since they must be single targeted (and npc's dont really do that....as with most players) you have the same advantages a paladin has...manipulating the battlefield.

And for the record I attack everything in molten core if we have enough healers :P

[Xeran]

Shaman's aren't easy? Right. One automatic rez. One automatic hearth. 7 critical abilities, that either increase attack power, or decrease cast time or decrease mana. Name any other class that has both buffs in one talent key. Lets not even start on the amount of instant casts shaman's have.

As for Paladins, it may be considered easy to play, but playing it right is extremely difficult.

Sadly in my opinion compared to all other games the paladin in WoW is the most gimped class.

Other than the shock spells (Earth Shock, Frost Shock and Flame Shock) I don't think Shaman have any other instant cast spells. There is a talent point (Nature's Swiftness?) that can make certain spells an instant cast.

I rolled a Shaman on another server to see what it is like. It's definately one of the most fun classes I've played. Shaman, like Paladins are an easy class to play ok but a hard class to play great.

PvE-wise: (On my Shaman) I can spam a HUGE amount of damage at a target ... and then spend a couple minutes drinking because my mana is all gone ... or get an add at less than a quarter health and get killed with all the interrupts. In PvE thus far (I'm level 36), I have realized that successful PvE is gambling with life to preserve mana - I can bandage to heal up which is quick verses healing and then drinking which can be expensive. A Paladin's gamble in the same situations is almost solely over mana. Life is restored easily and mana isn't THAT much of a concern because I can judge wisdom on a mob and end the fight with more mana than I started.

PvP-wise: Shaman do exceptionally well. We are difficult to fight because of the variety of skills we bring to the table. Snares, heavy armor, heavy elemental damage - there are classes than can do all these things better, but in the Shaman, they are combined. Paladin PvP is a joke. More than any other class, it's all luck / proc - based. A double crit on the Seal of Command is devastating (where the weapon damage crits AND the holy damage on the weapon crits) ... and so rare, there's usually a pause in combat because the Paladin is sitting there going "Holy crap! What was that?!" PvP is all about burst damage, which the Shaman has and the Paladin doesn't have. The only saving graces of the Paladin in PvP is that they are very hard to kill, have great buffs and their 12-second bubble means they can heal people around them while an entire raid beats on them.

My Shaman isn't high enough to know personally, but I think Shaman have less utility in end-game than Paladins (though being an end-game Paladin is no great shakes either).

[EnheilRas]

Being a Shaman is also incredibly mana-intensive.

Most people who complain about Shocks don't like to say that at 400+ Mana a pop, they are some of the most mana-intensive spells in the game.

Chain Lightning is 600+.

That damage comes at a heavy price. Even with 5500 mana, I can go out pretty damned fast. The Shaman is incredibly mana-heavy. It's not like they can beat too many classes in melee anyway. Without mana, even rogues can take one down.

[Hifazat]

Xeran I believe there are 2 talent points that make spells instant casts on top of the 3 they have. That is alot of direct damage. The Warlock has the most instant casts in the game, considering all the curses are instant casts and can be considered seperately.

I agree any class is hard to play well. Even a warlock. The difference is that an okay shaman is still more effective in PVE and PVP than an okay Paladin. A shaman can do direct damage more effectively than a paladin making them more effective in instances and PVP. The nature of a Paladin being a pain to kill has limited applicability in PVE as they can stay up when needed, but that only helps in a supporting role and not an offensive role.

The only ability I think that makes paladins great is DI. I never go to an instance without a pally. DIs save wipes and save alot of frustration.

[EnheilRas]

Nature's Swiftness (Which Druid's Get too), is a 21 point RESTO Talent.

Also, Shaman doing damage in end-game is frowned upon.

Though in 5-manning instances with a druid/Priest, they can do some LIGHT spell damage. Though Mostly need to work on using totema and keep from wasting mana on their own enhanements (Almost always flametongue or windfury; Use Flametongue when your warriors prefer SoE and GoA, and Windfury otherwise if they just want to go DPS. EVERYONE loves Windfury. Even Mages.)

[Hifazat]

Manus I believe there are 2 talents in the elemental tree that allow for instant casts correct?

[EnheilRas]

Nope.

1 5-point talent reduces shock cooldown by 1 second (Making them 5 seconds) with 5 full points (-.2 seconds per talent)

1 2 point talent reduces Bolt Countdown by 1 second (Making it 2.5 seconds) with 2 full talents (-.5 seconds per talent)

[Hifazat]

What about elemental mastery? Doesn't that make your spell an instant cast?

[EnheilRas]

No.

It just make it an automatic crit and 0 Mana (0 Mana was a buff to it in 1.11)

Can't tell you how disappointing it is dying when Mastery is activated and in the middle of charging a chain lightning.

Losing the cooldown... oy..

[Fhenrir]

The difference is that an okay shaman is still more effective in PVE and PVP than an okay Paladin.

This depends entirely on what kind of PvE you're talking about.

Most people think "raids" when they think "PvE", and in raids a paladin is a bajillion times better to have than a shaman.

I made this topic jokingly at first, but did you click my second link and read that whole post? That's Blizzard admitting Paladins are more useful in endgame PvE than Shamans.

[Gannarak]

I have to agree with Xeran (always wisdom in his words) and EnheilRas. I've observed a shaman in my guild (Cyrass) and the mana of a shaman goes down really fast. On top of that, mana regeneration with spirit is very poor on a shaman. When we raid, shamans heal, and that's that. If you dont like healing and rolled a shaman, you will have to either solo or PvP, which is sad, but we can't really do otherwise unless we have a lot of healers already in the raid.

I do not know paladins very well, but I know that most paladins do not have a significant DPS output. It is an endurence class, which, sadly, can be boring, compared to the Shaman who is the exact opposite. The buffs of a paladins are indeed a LOT better than shamanic totems, as a Hunter, I rarely am near those totems or in a group that does benefit from them.

But see the problem from another angle, an angle no one ever tries to comprehend. See it from the eyes of a game designer. You decided that both factions would have a unique class. You cant make them the same, yet they have to balance each other. You cant base anything on those classes, no strategies or events because one side would obviously be unable to do some things. The result was the Shaman, a class that runs out of ressources fast but can do more than descent damage as well as heal and buff, and the Paladin, that is very resilient, can heal and can do a very target optimization of a group.

AoE doest hit totems ? I hope so ! Can I AoE dispel paladins buff ? They are better and more accurately targeted. Of course, I can take them off, I suppose, with some spells, but I still have to target that. Totems being one of the cornerstones of the shaman class, I dont see why it is such a big deal, at least regular shamans do not have stainless steel totems like Jindo the Hexer ;)

Shamans and Paladins are buff machines for both factions, and this is their contribution to raids. I will agree that the paladin in WoW does not have abilities I would consider typicall of a paladin, but we cannot change that now can we ?

I'll let you think about that.

J-

[Xeran]

I agree: from a design perspective, both Horde and Alliance should be different but "equal." The big question is what constitutes "equal." Much has been made in the past about the base design in AV. People complain about the tower bottleneck in the Horde base or the "bridge of death" Alliance side. The differences in design, however, make it feel more "real." The German tanks in World War Two did not look like American tanks which also did not look like British tanks. The fact that the base designs are different opens up for the possibility of inequities creeping in. But I'd rather they were different, but flawed, than based on a Quake / Unreal tournament type of cookie-cutter model.

I think the same thinking applies to the classes. Paladins are better protectors while Shaman are better damage-dealers. They are not equal damage dealers or equal healers ... but they offset each other in the ranks of their respective factions.

On the subject of Shaman totems: in PvP, I like to wait until the enemy is engaged and then I'll drop them as I'm fighting. You'd be surprised the number of people that are so focused on beating down the big cow that they don't get why they are suddenly taking a lot of fire damage. On the flip side, they have 5 hit points. You could unequip your main hand weapon and just punch one and it would go away.

There are two points of contention with regard to totems in PvE: a) they have an effective radius and b) they only work for the Shaman's party, not the raid. This could mean: I have to move in, drop the totem(s) and then move out of the combat area (opening the possibility that I could get silenced or take damage which would burn mana to heal). One of my pet peeves is setting up a combat area with totems and then having my group ignore them and fight elsewhere. So I basically just laid out a pretty, glowy mini-forest all for me. *sigh*

Paladin buffs, on the other hand, are on the player. Fight wherever you want, unless it's purged or timed-out, the buff will be on you. Also, I can put buffs on any member of the raid I want AND put the lesser buff on any friendly player I want regardless of whether I'm teamed with them or not.