Let's talk about the Forsaken (and the Scourge)

[Demortius]

We know from the character models that the Undead of the Forsaken are more human-looking than anything in the Scourge. In fact there aren't many undead of the Scourge that look like Forsaken, at least in WoW character models. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Sometimes I wonder if the Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls view the Forsaken as just humans with a disease, since the majority of the Forsaken are former humans. You don't see many undead Trolls, Orcs, or Dwarves for instance.

Or does the horde view the Forsaken as a whole new race, since much of the Forsaken have lost all connections to humanity, as if reborn.

I've always been interested in the differences between the Forsaken and the Scourge. Differences in intelligence, speech, how they think, organization, motivations, and basically what makes them tick.

This is what I think: the Forsaken are those who broke off from the "collective" that is the Scourge. And now the Forsaken are of independent minds instead of a collective mind. They still hate the living and have a vision of conquering the world with undeath, but they cannot combat the Scourge with their small numbers. Perhaps Sylvanas, come to think of it, has a similar power as the Lich King (not as powerful of course) in order to keep her forces organized. Otherwise, what makes Sylvanas any different from the rest of the Forsaken, really? That she's an elf?

Seeing how all characters start in Deathknell, this brings up another question. When a person is struck with undeath and awakens into their new life, what determines whether they become Scourge or Forsaken? What prevents the Lich King from taking hold of the new-born right away?

Judging by the first words spoken to you as an Undead character starting out from the first quest-giver, it seems your body was about to be cast into a fire. Do the Forsaken store their defeated victims from the Alliance in Crypts like Deathknell, hoping that some of them become Forsaken?

I think the Forsaken are considered by many as just the "good" Scourge. Not many wish to acknowledge the complexities between Scourge and Forsaken, and just how the Forsaken works.

It seems the Scourge has more bestial undead, and the Forsaken consists more of humanoid units.

I hope I've provoked some thoughts and discussions about the Forsaken and the Scourge. I am anxious to hear your insights and knowledge.

[EnheilRas]

We know from the character models that the Undead of the Forsaken are more human-looking than anything in the Scourge. In fact there aren't many undead of the Scourge that look like Forsaken, at least in WoW character models. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

There's a few; such as Ambassador Malcin outside Razorfen Downs, or the Scoure diplomat in Razorfen Kraul. Kel'thuzad has sent scourge ambassadors to the Pigmen in South Barrens in order to strike a treaty. This treaty says, among other things, that in turn for aiding the Scourge, the Quillboars will be able to destroy the Horde and claim all of the Barrens and Durotar for themselves. The Quilboar agreed, and the Lich knownas the Coldbringer was brought into the Downs, an all the Quillboar have thus been subjugated under Scourge control. Many have been plagued and turned undead.

Sometimes I wonder if the Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls view the Forsaken as just humans with a disease, since the majority of the Forsaken are former humans. You don't see many undead Trolls, Orcs, or Dwarves for instance.

Because the Plague Cauldrons never went that far. Only Northern Lordaeron and Quel'thelas were blighted by the Cult's cauldrons, you see. There's not a lot of dwarves, Orcs, of Trolls left in those areas. The main theory suggests that the amani's naturally high regeneration made them incredibly resilient to the plague's effects. However, there is a quest in the Troll area in Northeasten Eastern Plaguelands that deals with an exile that did indeed contract the plague and is being commanded to spread it to his tribe. Because the southern extent of the Scourge was Dalaran, High elves and Humans were the only ones naturally effected by the plague (Though Strahnbrad can be reached as being plagued, and that was sacked by Orcs of the Blackrock Clan (Blackrock & roll part 1), so if you want to stretch it, you could go with a Forsaken orc.


Or does the horde view the Forsaken as a whole new race, since much of the Forsaken have lost all connections to humanity, as if reborn.

How the horde "views" the forsaken is usually a matter of personal opinion, but it can all be assumed to be ultimately one thing: Suspicion. There are elements within the Horde, called the Earthen Council, that is actively trying to 'cure' the Forsaken and reverse Ner'zhul's plague on them. Thouogh a powerful Necromancer and Warlock, Ner'zhul was a Shaman. The Earthen council is like the anti-apothecary. They are using the same methods of herbalism and combining it with shamanistic divination in order to try to reverse the effects of the plague and restore the Forsaken's humanity.

Politically, it can be said that the horde do not see the Forsaken as a new race, but a clutch of sentient beings that just needed help or they'd be destroyed. the horde has offered that help with a weary hand.

I've always been interested in the differences between the Forsaken and the Scourge. Differences in intelligence, speech, how they think, organization, motivations, and basically what makes them tick.

Most Scourge are not intelligent. they do not speak, think, and are not motivated. They are like the Silithid. They have no emotions. They do not act until told. Ner'zhul is the Overmind. He is the Hive. The Lich King is the intelligence of the Scourge. Only his Liches have sentience. The other minions are basically controlled like pawns. their every move and sense is through the Lich King. He knows and sees everything they do, and controls every aspect of their existence.

This is what I think: the Forsaken are those who broke off from the "collective" that is the Scourge. And now the Forsaken are of independent minds instead of a collective mind. They still hate the living and have a vision of conquering the world with undeath, but they cannot combat the Scourge with their small numbers. Perhaps Sylvanas, come to think of it, has a similar power as the Lich King (not as powerful of course) in order to keep her forces organized. Otherwise, what makes Sylvanas any different from the rest of the Forsaken, really? That she's an elf?

Broken off? They were broke off. It was by no act of their own that the Will of the Lich King became weakened (Blame Illidan). They were the lucky ones, by some random occurance, that Ner'zhul lost contol of them. They regained sentience and will. Sylvanas Windrunner was a powerful being, and a very capable leader (It runs in the family). She was motivated to bring together the freed once in a rebellion to retake Lordaeron. Her strength and military expertise is why they follow her. she brought them victory in a situation where no one else could. Most Forsaken are loyal to her out of respect of what she has done. She's not different than any of the Forsaken (It ca be assumed that many other high elves are Forsaken), other than the fact that she's the Banshee Queen and the first Banshee brought into this world by the powers of Frostmourne (which may be how she became so powerful. Kil'jaeden crafted Frostmourne himself).

Seeing how all characters start in Deathknell, this brings up another question. When a person is struck with undeath and awakens into their new life, what determines whether they become Scourge or Forsaken? What prevents the Lich King from taking hold of the new-born right away?

All forsaken were Scourge. The Forsaken are the Scourge which have regained their will and sentience from Ner'zhul. They all have died and been infected by the plague that raised them into the service of the Scourge. What occurs in deathknell is usually an "awakening" from a torpor-like state (V:TM reference). Most do not remember the atrocities they may have committed while in service to Ner'zhul. Most forget their human lives. They are lost and without identity.

There's nothing really preventing Ner'zhul from regaining control of the Forsaken. This is why the Deadites (Raimi reference) must work so hard to defeat him. Their will is indeed strong, but Ner'zhul is arguably the most powerful being in the world (He could take C'thun). The Forsaken are puppets that cut their strings. Ner'zhul can restring them if he finds them.

Judging by the first words spoken to you as an Undead character starting out from the first quest-giver, it seems your body was about to be cast into a fire. Do the Forsaken store their defeated victims from the Alliance in Crypts like Deathknell, hoping that some of them become Forsaken?

Cremation is widely accepted to be the only way to ensure a plagued victim does not rise as Scourge (Think Night of the Living Dead). They were uncertain if the character had the will to sever Ner'zhul's control over him. They were not about to take chances.

As for "victims"; No. It is impossible to be raised as Scourge or Forsaken by being murdered by them. They are not zombies. they are victims of a magical plague. The only way to be turned into one is to also ingest and contract the plague and then die.

I think the Forsaken are considered by many as just the "good" Scourge. Not many wish to acknowledge the complexities between Scourge and Forsaken, and just how the Forsaken works.

shallowness. However, there is much evil in the Forsaken society that goes unchecked.

It seems the Scourge has more bestial undead, and the Forsaken consists more of humanoid units.

The Scourge has no need for civilization. They are a force of chaos.

I hope I've provoked some thoughts and discussions about the Forsaken and the Scourge. I am anxious to hear your insights and knowledge.

'k.

[EnheilRas]

Also

No one has any idea what the hell is up with that Forsaken Gnome in the Apothecarium.

No quest I know of deals with him.
No Class I know of has any involvement with him.
No event I know of allows you to speak with him.

[Aquizit]

Curious:

Out of Arthas/Ner'Zhul...

which one is the dominant mind?

[Vilmah]

Also

No one has any idea what the hell is up with that Forsaken Gnome in the Apothecarium.

No quest I know of deals with him.
No Class I know of has any involvement with him.
No event I know of allows you to speak with him.

He's a leper gnome, isn't he? Maybe they have later plans for him.

Or maybe he's just there for atmosphere.

[EnheilRas]

Curious:

Out of Arthas/Ner'Zhul...

which one is the dominant mind?

We really don't know. I would assume Ner'zhul has full and complete control. he realy always has.

there's been nothing on the beast since the fusion.

[Gavril]

Just to clear a couple things up in reference to races,

Blizzard did release lore connected to the plague, not long ago.

The plague ONLY affects humans. Period. It was engineered to turn humans into the undead. Now, that's not to say it doesn't have adverse effects on wildlife (or the trolls), but it was not meant to turn anything other than humans into the undead. I haven't done any quests with the trolls in the Plaguelands, however, so I have no idea what the situation is, there.

But, yes, Blizzard specifically said that any undead who were NOT formerly humans were raised by necromancy, and were not victims of the plague.

I'd dig up the link but I'm far too lazy right now. >.>

[Demortius]

Also

No one has any idea what the hell is up with that Forsaken Gnome in the Apothecarium.

No quest I know of deals with him.
No Class I know of has any involvement with him.
No event I know of allows you to speak with him.


That Gnome is a Leper Gnome. Apparently, he invented that worm-contraption next to him. He runs the machine and stuff. As for any other details, dunno. Go ask Sylvanas!

[Gavril]

Found the link -- http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/undeadplague.html

Hence, while undead representatives certainly do exist among the ranks of the non-human races, these particular agents are examples of undead created through necromancy rather than the plague.

As for differences between Scourge and Forsaken, Enheilras has pretty much covered it.

Also, there's an agent of the Scourge in Silverpine who "looks Forsaken"; he's on the dock on the inner edge of the region.

I don't think the aesthetic differences between Forsaken and Scourge have anything to do with lore, however, so much as game mechanics. The models for ghouls aren't really PC material; the models for skeletons are the same as the Forsaken, but skeletons themselves are not very customisable, and therefore not very good PC materials.

Zombies with bad posture are, however, good PC material. =D

[Fallacy]

The Scourge is actually sort of odd with it's members. It is not only comprised of undead, but the living who devote themselves to Ner'zhul, and those living that have had their souls absorbed, like Arthas was. The Lich King, therefore, is not undead himself. Ner'zhul had taken the prince's body much like Sargeras took Medivh's when he was still in his mother's womb, taking them at the moment when they are weakest. One of the new drops from the Scourge invaders is a note from a wounded soldier, detailing how valiantly Arthas was in trying to defend his station from the first invasion. I believe that, given the chance, the real Arthas would do all he could to break free from Ner'zhul's control, but, with such a great connection to his mind, there is little hope of that happening. Throughout several different characters throughout the games and lore, it seems that those persons' true consciousness always survives the Plague, and can sometimes fight against the Lich King's control, from Sylvanus to the whole of the Forsaken, to people like the Ashbringer and that scene where Kel'Thuzad first enters Naxxramas and sees a woman devour her husband.

Truly, it is rather depressing to see once good people forced to become such horrors committed against any attempt of will they have. The Plague seems little more than a way to disconnect the consciousness from the body, so that the Lich King's control can take its place.

[Shadowspeak]

What are the things like the Undercity Guardians? Apparently just abominations that are Forsaken, but I see they create them in the apothecarium... is this just a simple matter of necromancy and they have free will? Do they serve their creators the "alchemists", or do they alos have free will?

[EnheilRas]

I believe Abominations are nothing but constructs of Necromancy. As such, as being semi-sentient, they have the intelligence of a animalistic predator, and are only capable of basic tasks.

This is why when the Apothecary wants Doomweed, the Abomination went looking for Gloomweed.

[Anaie]

I have been trying to do some research for Anaie's current situation, and the question of forsaken biology came to me.... I ended up finding this and thought some of the things were very interesting....

http://forums.scrollsoflore.com/showthread.php?t=1899

worth reading over. I will try to get more opinions from you all a bit later, to help me with my current plans.

[Qabian]

I believe that, given the chance, the real Arthas would do all he could to break free from Ner'zhul's control, but, with such a great connection to his mind, there is little hope of that happening.

That's 'cause humans suck.

Oh wait, OOC, um... yeah, my vote goes for Ner'zhul's dominance. :)

[Aquizit]

Holy Thread Necromancy!

[Qabian]

Anaie's got something devious up her sleeve to go along with raising the dead, I believe.

[Maegannon]

What Blizzard says, goes, sadly enough..

Ner'zhul did not make the plague. In fact, he was hand-resurrecting people into undead previous to the construction of the plague.. which was designed by Kel'Thuzad.

Kel'Thuzad poisoned Brill, turning everyone and everything in the town into the undead we now know as the scourge(and forsaken). It was an experiment, and it pissed off the big-wigs in Dalaaran. They could have stopped it, but they didn't..Instead they just Kel'Thuzad out of their magic-circle. Kel'Thuzad was summoned to Ice crown by Ner'zhul, which he would never have agreed to previous to being booted from magic school(lol). It was only upon agreeing to work with Ner'zhul that the real plague was spread.

It effected only humans (and one troll race who got it from one solitary troll, who some how managed to contract it.) in the lordaeron, northern lordaeron, and lower reaches of quel'thalas areas.

Any and all elves who are forsaken(or scourge) are banshee in nature, raised by necromancers durring the attack on the city of Silvermoon and the surrounding areas.




And I think personaly that they are a duel dominate mind. Arthas the paladin was long gone by the time he was ready to merg with the lich king. I think he's there, and I think he's loving it.

[Anaie]

My interest in it is more to a point of what is biologically still possible for a forsaken. I know because of game balance they are not classified as Undead, and that they have to breathe when they go underwater, but they are still effected by things that I would not associate with being "dead".

they breathe, eat, drink, bandage, have the light heal them, are damaged by poisons, can be bled, all that jazz...

plus as that thread says, the lore shows that the guy locked up in the room in SM is "cured" of his undead state when Ashbringer is brought to the SM...

I like the idea that the plague is a biological attack (enhanced and utilizing magic as well) that essentially corrupts the system. It is like a virus, is it a curable one? noone knows... and will the person just die if cured? probably depending on the state of thier body when it took them (sucks for you jawless avatars :P ) Is it possible that some are carriers of the plague, but not fully affected? The exposure to it in their systems causes them to exhibit signs of undeath (flesh deterioration, the abilities of the forsaken, etc) but perhaps still have functioning systems as well.

Yes im up to something, but its not sinister... yet *cackle*

[Fallacy]

How the Plague itself worked was different from necromancy. It essentially made the diseased very sick, until they succumbed to it or died from the illness, and their very bodies were transformed to withstand becoming undead.

And, Mae, that's wrong. Ner'zhul did create the Plague. He first unleashed it on some of the human settlements, but found it didn't affect the Nerubians, whom he had to have resurrected by himself. Kel'thuzad witnessed the effects of the Plague firsthand when he first came to Naxxramas, you can see that here: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/underdev/1p11/roadtodamnation2.html

[Zethrin]

With regards to whether elves can contract the plague, The Fallen Courier (http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=9147) quest suggests they in fact can. So if only humans are supposed to be able to get the plague, then Blizzard contradicted itself in-game.

[Fallacy]

Alright, here's a better description of the origin and nature of the Plague: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/undeadplague.html

[Qabian]

And I think personaly that they are a duel dominate mind. Arthas the paladin was long gone by the time he was ready to merg with the lich king. I think he's there, and I think he's loving it.

Yeah, the reason I'd pick Ner'zhul for dominance is because he was supposed to be this spectral manifestation of unimaginable power and immense consciousness enough to control people reeeeally far away, while Arthas was, um, a bad guy. But Ner'zhul had kinda been leaking for a while, so maybe he'd been reduced to bad guy as well and they're both camped out in his head being all evil together. :o

[Xiphus]

Well, noting that some people mentioned that the Forsaken kinda forgets what they were before they turned undead, I would say that this isn't exactly entirely true. Some Forsaken did forget, and there's a good reason for that amnesia.

Imagine having to watch as your very claws tear apart your friends, family and neighbors. Imagine watching yourself tearing down your beloved nation and being unable to do squat about it.

The experience will be traumatizing enough to make the person actually forget to shut off that trauma.

There are of course, Forsaken individuals who do remember what they were before being undead. For example, Bethor Iceshard and his friend (The Prodigal Lich). They both knew each other even before being undead, even remembered being friends. In fact, to them meeting together again is a happy reunion since being undead. And they remembered Thule Ravenclaw and his betrayal. These two Forsaken remembered what life was like before becoming undead. And don't forget the Champion of the Forsaken, the former ranger (forgot his name). He clearly remembered being a ranger, and he definitely remembered working for Sylvanas before the Scourge came.

The mentioned individuals happened to have their personalities and mentality remain intact despite all the atrocities they could had unwillingly done when they were part of the Scourge (or maybe Bethor was never part of the Scourge. Who knows?). However, there are also Forsaken who was scarred permanently by the ordeal. Most Forsaken are like that, and they are the ones who had forgotten life as the living. Others were twisted entirely, just like Faranell. The ordeal has desensitize him to death, and even turned him sadistic, probably even insanity. Severe trauma has that tendency of making people insane after all.

[Anaie]

Yes, I play Anaie as someone that remembers her past, but whenever she actually tore anything to shreds as scourge, blacks out the memory. I remember just before, and just after the incident though, so its still traumatizing.

[Redcap]

With regards to whether elves can contract the plague, The Fallen Courier (http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=9147) quest suggests they in fact can. So if only humans are supposed to be able to get the plague, then Blizzard contradicted itself in-game.

Many of the Blood Elves who died during the war were brought back as Scourge.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Blood_Elf

"The Forsaken have been working closely with the blood elves to purge the greater Plaguelands of Scourge presence since their induction, but the blood elves still regard them with distrust. Lor'themar Theron was Sylvanas Windrunner's second in command during the Second Battle of Quel'Thalas, and many Forsaken were high elves culled from the same battle. By propagating this information and the Earthen Ring's view of the Forsaken's affliction, they have gained enough sympathy from the blood elves to gain entry into greater Quel'thalas and set up outposts. However, most see these obsequious proposals as smoke and mirrors hiding a fiendish plan. Aid from the Forsaken has included offers of reinforcements in and around the reclaimed blood elf territories, and a transportation device outside both the Undercity and Silvermoon so that travel between the two cities is quick, safe and easy. Other than construction of this device, Theron has viewed most of the offers shrewdly, and has declined on most."

[Qabian]

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that Scourge elves tended to be Banshee type, but I have no idea where. It could have just been someone else's suggestion.

Dar'khan (http://www.wowwiki.com/Dar'khan) has an undead elf model, though, but it just says he was raised. I don't think he contracted the plague, was just necromancied up after death. I got the impression that Scourge elves were raised through other means than the plague, since they were "culled from the same battle".

Not to say there weren't any plague-type quel'dorei victims, though. That quest certainly seems to suggest there could be. It seems logical seeing as the elves weren't the focus of the plague, though, that the vast majority of the Scourge victims to become Forsaken would be human. "Many" isn't exactly a specific number.

[Abric]

Metzen has the ability to not think through with things and do what is cool now... then go back and change it.

How'd I miss this conversation from so long ago? Clearly, Diomades needs to learn to post larger. LARGER.

[Darkblade]

The quest states the elf has the plague, not that it necessarily would turn him undead. It is just as possible the plague can affect the elves, but it will simply get them sick and kill them, without any threat of undeath.

The only "undead" elves (or others) have been special cases, not plague victims.

The possible exception to that are the undead murlocs in the blood elf zone. I don't remember the story behind them...

[Anaie]

as its a plague, you can be a carrier of it perhaps and not actually have it...