PvP comparison

[Sanrin]

I was havin a conversation on vent with a couple of people about how I could pvp all day long. Its one of the reasons I look forward to WAR, because I can commit to not questiong...just combat against other players. Most of the people I was talking with said that'd be really boring. Really really boring. They love and need pve, and hate most forms of pvp.....but they're looking forward to WAR.


Wat? It makes me wonder how many people are actually going to make the switch over...or even understand what WAR is? On top of that another really great comment was brought up when we talked, being Blizz's planed Guild vs Guild system. I've yet to see any word on this aside from the offhand comment Blizz made bout how they were looking to create it but I think it'd solve a lot of my issues with WoW if done right. Having MORE then one type of pvp goal would be awesome, and im not talking about BG grinding for random belts/bracers AND arena. Different goals, rewards, group makeups, strats...id love to see both games offer a large degree of PvP options that arent shitty grindfests but are more oriented around larger more organized conflict. This new 'zone' in WoW is a start, but both games (though one is not released) rely pretty heavy on the PvP crowd...it'd be great if we could start making a list of things that both games will offer for pvpers and see how they match up in the end. Though we might want to wait until blizzcon Paris to make our final judgement...

[Sanrin]

WAR Announced 'Combat Types':

Skirmish: Combat in the game world anywhere, anytime.
Battlefields: Objective-based battles
Scenarios: Instanced, objective based battles with NPC allies. Four will be located in each zone that exists.
'The Campaign': A multi-tier system that incorperates leveling and world combat. Objectives in all tiers will effect the final tier in which the goal is to defeat the capital city of an enemy.
Keeps: Battlefield objectives in each zone in WAR will afford buffs similar to the PvP objectives in WoW, except they'll be in every zone all the way up.
World Leaders: As a side note killing these main rules are the shizzle, and apparently the hardest thing to do, yielding the greatest rewards?

Types of RvR movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApYSgxl_l00&NR=1

WoW Announced PvP Objectives

World PvP: Combat in the game world anywhere, anytime.
Battlegrounds: Instanced group pvp with objectives. Four currently exist with a fifth in plan for the next expansion.
PvP Events: World PvP objectives that effect the zone (Halaa, Spirit Towers, Dust Collecting)
PvP Zone: ???? WOTLK only.
Arena:: Combat brackets that exist in 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5. Small scale battles that rely on group makeup and that will provide equipment based on rank, points, and season.
Guild PvP: Though perhaps only a rumor I am sure that Blizz announced GuildvsGuild pvp in the future. No other information at this time.

[Brandub]

You forgot keeps as well for WAR.

Also, keeps and well as the battlefield objectives in each zone in WAR will afford buffs similar to the PvP objectives in WoW, except they'll be in every zone all the way up.

[Sanrin]

Thanks! Imma try and keep a list running here...for my sake and perhaps for others as well! So much info just having a few stickies and links in one consistant place is helpful!

[Brandub]

Also, EP1C L007z will come from killing the Keep bosses, winning the Battlefield Public Quests, and Capturing cities.

[Keraph]

Also note that WoW has 4 battlegrounds. WAR's Scenarios, the rough equivalent, will be about four per ZONE, from what I understand

[Brandub]

Also note that WoW has 4 battlegrounds. WAR's Scenarios, the rough equivalent, will be about four per ZONE, from what I understand

That, too ;)

[Tillna]

That link was insanely helpful, thanks Sanny

[Raziel]

Depending on the amount and population of the servers, it can get pretty fucking insane.

It *will* be pretty fucking insane at first I surmise. I don't just mean the whole "Servers down for the first week of Live" insane like WoW was either. But that's always a hard number to guess, I suppose.. Because it's not good to have too many, because then you have to "merge" and that's never a good thing.

The thing about the Battlegrounds and Arena.. While they do give the junkies their fix, it's the fact that they're in such a *controlled* environment that doesn't really do it for the more rugged fighters out there. They're the mindset that lust for the random, the chaotic, and the adrenaline that PvP should deliver. The kind where it leaves your hands shaking and your heart rate increased. That's the real shit right there.

[Daedraug]

I heard a quote that the absolute best gear in the game should only ever give about a 60% power advantage over standard crap gear at endgame. That sounds like a lot, but I can't imagine the disparity between quest greens and full s3 in WoW, and I have to imagine its a lot more.

[Sanrin]

40-60% difference is what I heard, and while it does sound like a lot look at how WoW currently runs. Take someone in any tier at 70 (t4-6) and have them fight someone lesser geared then them by ONE set. Its generally a steamroll, depending on class makeup and if the itemization is even correct. Id rather 40-60% then 100-200%

edit- keep me posted on pvp edits so i can keep the second post upgraded as much as possible! WoW or WAR stuff is needed!

[Diomades]

Don't forget, Warhammer is being built from the ground up with a PvP system in mind. Battlegrounds, PvP events and Arena were all afterthoughts by Blizzard, and so now they're madly trying to balance their very PvE based system to PvP based rules. Crowd control is far more rampant than it should be and it is possible to be locked out of whole games by just one person-something that Warhammer is avoiding because while CCing somebody else is fun, BEING CCed is not, and does not give you a hope of winning if you're a class without any anti-CC.

Basically;
Warhammer: Built on PvP rules. (Less Crowd Control, even healing classes do damage and are encouraged to)
World of Warcraft: Built on PvE rules. (Most every class has a CC of some form or another-some more than others, healing classes are healing only and unreliable if they do damage).

[Tillna]

See druids.

They kinda need thier insane hots to heal, but in PVP it's over kill.

You gotta do some fancy DPS dancing to kill em.

In War, Nothing like that should happen. Also, one thing I love?

NO HYBRID CLASSES.

Tank, Melee, Ranged, Healer. They have jobs, they do them. Don't like your job? Change classes

[Diomades]

NO HYBRID CLASSES.

Tank, Melee, Ranged, Healer. They have jobs, they do them. Don't like your job? Change classes

I wouldn't necessarily say there were no hybrid classes. Look at the Goblin Shaman. To heal, they have to do damage and build up morale (Waagh for Orks and Goblins). So their specs will likely focus on doing more damage, doing more healing (or getting Waagh for healing faster) or something in between. Likely more group buffs or the like.

However, there's no 'hybrid' class that I know of that packs 4 classes into one like Druids. Which is definitely a bonus. The closest I know of is the healers in Warhammer all do damage too.

[Tillna]

I wouldn't necessarily say there were no hybrid classes. Look at the Goblin Shaman. To heal, they have to do damage and build up morale (Waagh for Orks and Goblins). So their specs will likely focus on doing more damage, doing more healing (or getting Waagh for healing faster) or something in between. Likely more group buffs or the like.

However, there's no 'hybrid' class that I know of that packs 4 classes into one like Druids. Which is definitely a bonus. The closest I know of is the healers in Warhammer all do damage too.

Yeah, but they are designed like that, and I am fine with it.

I meant like Pallies, Shamans, Druids...yoou know, We can tank heal and DPS!

[Swerto]

well... not shamans....


Anyways there are "minor hybrids" like the Warrior-Priest (healing/melee dps) and the Witch Hunter (Melee/ranged DPS, even though the ranged is minor).

Even the tanks all have some Melee DPS (DUH!)

There aren't any druds, no, who can do EVERYTHING.

There aren't any Paladins who can heal, take damage, and crit once and take someone down to no health (damn you shockadins)

No you can be pretty sure we'll be happy with balance in this game.

As it was said this game is being designed ground up with PVP in mind, so it's whole focus on classes is to give PVP balance, PvE is more of an afterthought (and I won't expect much from it)

[Brandub]

I also love the fact that there is enemy player collision detection. None of this namby-pamby dancing all over the place shit that happens in WoW. When your tank stand the line to block your healers, that line will have to be broken to get to them :)

Also, battles in WoW are FAST. People get killed in 3 seconds flat ALL THE TIME. Battles in WAR are engineered to take upwards of 30 seconds and often much closer to a minute apiece. This extends if you add good support.

Most of the good leaked footage from RvR scenarios actually doesn't really even show that many people dying. The stuff thus far is much more built around strategic retreats and advances as a group. Which is awesome in my book.

[Swerto]

I hate PvP focussed on "kill, okay you died real fast hurry up, respawn... yup get back in the battle... mhmm they're killing us.... yup... we're losing... damn we didn't move fast enough so now we're dead... yup...."

That high speed killing is intended more for shooters, not click 'n hit MMORPG's.


Even though super high speed fights made me an ultimate badass in SWG (when NGE first hit Jedi was unstoppable if you could hit the buttons fast enouh)

[Daedraug]

IIRC, the Witch-Hunter is considered pure melee dps due to the extremely short range of the gun. I believe its used more as a point blank "finishing move," tool than an actual firearm. Think rogue throwing weapons at best.

I think the idea of 3 core classes, with a healer/core hybrid for each type, is a much simpler starting point in terms of game balance than WoW cornered itself into.

[Sanrin]

dio you also have to consider that WoW's hybrid classes arent really hybrids. A hybrid is something that can do multiple skills, more a jack of all trades...but that doesnt really exist in WoW. A paladin has the ability to heal, tank, and melee but since gear is the major dependency factor changing how you equip will completely change if you're even good in the other two. A ret paladin can toss out maybe four heals when fully geared/spec'd...his flash of light isnt even worth mentioning. I dont really qualify that as a hybrid. Compared to the warrior-priest which is a class that heals with various melee swings and is made to be a in-the-fight healer with cc/mezz id say that there will be more true hybrids in WAR.

Now both games are designed for different things, pve or pvp related, but the fact remains that WoWs playerbase is VERY reliant on pvp. Even taking into consideration the amount of people who dont pvp because they suck at it or because they hate it a large majority of players run battlegrounds, arena, halaa etc. I dont even want to think of the amount of teams stuck at 1600 and below, though going into AV and seeing the massive amounts of undergeared alliance and horde is a nice display. Its easy to forget that the minority of the players in WoW are in BT/Sunwell..what the hell is the other 90% of this game doing? Leveling? And at the 70 pop, most likely just pvp and the occasional five man. Maybe kara on weekends. Without PvP WoW would lose a lot that it really cant afford, particularly for a player like myself, which is why im making such a straightforward comparison between the two. Its a bit unfair, yes, but in my mind anyone can make an instance. Not everyone can balance a game.

edit- updated second post

[Swerto]

WoW does to have hybrid classes, as does WAR

WoW (with certain specs)
Shaman - Ranged DPS(magic)/Melee DPS OR Healing/Ranged DPS
Warrior - Tank/Melee DPS
Druid - Melee DPS/Tank OR Ranged DPS/Healing
Priest - Healing/Ranged DPS
Hunter - Melee/Ranged DPS (melee via pet)
Paladin - Healing/Melee DPS (shockadins)

WAR

(le sigh too many to mention but I'll give the empire as an example)

Knight - Tank/Melee DPS
Witch Hunter - Melee DPS / Minor ranged DPS
Bright Wizard - Ranged DPS / Support
Warrior-Priest - Healing/Melee DPS


DIFFERENCE: WoW is usually an either or thing, WAR is both at the same time, while your tank class is taking damage he can still dish out decent melee dps (though nowhere near as good as the melee dps classes) and the Witch Hunter's Ranged DPS is probably going to be used at close range more than long range (even if it can work that for), from what I can tell it's more like the deadly throw a rogue has (yay for finishing moves)

[Daedraug]

Well, to quote the WAR developers, every race has a

Tank
Melee DPS
Ranged DPS
Healer/X

So unlike WoW, no spec for a tank is ever going to put them into dps classes' range of damage output. Shadows may be a bit of a melee dps/ranged dps hybrid, but to do both you'll never be -as- good in either, etc.

The other thing I like is that they're being so up-front about the rock/paper/scissors nature of PvP.

Tanks > Melee DPS > Ranged DPS > Tanks

It makes target selection and group combat tactics a much bigger part of the game when you just admit that dynamic up-front.

[Sanrin]

WoW does to have hybrid classes, as does WAR

WoW (with certain specs)
Shaman - Ranged DPS(magic)/Melee DPS OR Healing/Ranged DPS
Warrior - Tank/Melee DPS
Druid - Melee DPS/Tank OR Ranged DPS/Healing
Priest - Healing/Ranged DPS
Hunter - Melee/Ranged DPS (melee via pet)
Paladin - Healing/Melee DPS (shockadins)

WAR

(le sigh too many to mention but I'll give the empire as an example)

Knight - Tank/Melee DPS
Witch Hunter - Melee DPS / Minor ranged DPS
Bright Wizard - Ranged DPS / Support
Warrior-Priest - Healing/Melee DPS


DIFFERENCE: WoW is usually an either or thing, WAR is both at the same time, while your tank class is taking damage he can still dish out decent melee dps (though nowhere near as good as the melee dps classes) and the Witch Hunter's Ranged DPS is probably going to be used at close range more than long range (even if it can work that for), from what I can tell it's more like the deadly throw a rogue has (yay for finishing moves)


You're right as to whats a hybrid to some extent, however i still disagree as to 'its an either or' thing. Hybrid implies that its still something you're always gonna be rockin a series of abilities all equally decent. The fact that you have so many at your disposal makes you a threat, because you're not deticated to a single thing you can use that to your advantage and hopefully outplay people who ONLY have melee dps at your disposal. This is pretty key because while WoW stresses that almost any class can operate pretty well solo (against an equally geared opponent) its all about team play in WAR. For example a ret paladin is pretty much a better warrior minus mortal strike because the damage is instant, mostly holy (so better then a regular melee swing) and has bubble plus heals. The paladin is a hybrid class yet can operate BETTER then a class designed for only two things...output or damage soak. Thats not to say a warrior doesnt have its uses, but in WAR things will be different...you pick a class and you play that class and thats your job. There may be other WAYS to accomplish the same goal but your task on the team is more or less going to be the same. I kinda like that a bit more, it means a range of classes is needed instead of just one or two multispec'd ones. It also means that my job is more valuable, which is nice.

[Roth'rili]

Tanks > Melee DPS > Ranged DPS > Tanks


....but but...*cries* what am I free renown if I play a Healer/support! *holds his Dual ritual blades, thinks of his casting ability and...sighs*

[Netheryn]

This is a decent thread, but I think it is all based on one underlying assumption, that both WoW and WAR are, at their core, the same game.

This could not be further from the truth. WoW is a PvE game. The majority of content is PvE content. Skills, classes, game mechanics and balance are almost all PvE related. The majority of gear is PvE, and the PvP gear is re-done copies of this PvE gear (original tier 4).

The game did not ship with battlegrounds. The game did not ship with world PvP objectives. The game did not ship with Arenas or guild vs. guild. Each of these were added as an after-thought and created an entirely new host of problems for WoW. Mainly because you can't build a game for PvE and expect to get any kind of balanced PvP out of it.

This is why they have had to constantly add new mechanics, tweaks, balance fixes, entire races and classes. They couldn't figure out how to get asymmetrical classes to balance so they gave up and gave both sides paladins and shaman.

WAR, on the otherhand, is a game built entirely on PvP. Every single thing you do in the game, from the PvE quests to the exploration of the world adds, in some way, to the over-all PvP campaign that is going on. All mechanics are designed with PvP in mind. The PvE fights even feel like PvP battles (according to the creators). PvP and PvE gear are the SAME THING in this game. In fact, to get the complete sets you must participate in both PvE and PvP. PvP gives loot drops, XP from kills, and balance is foremost in the developer's minds from the get-go. More than that they have managed to balance asymmetrical races and classes. No two classes play the same, even if they are vaguely similar.

WoW is promising a lot of new features with WotLK. Why? Because they are having to compete with WAR now, or will be. A full PvP zone? So what? Don't we already have that now? World PvP objectives? Like what? EPL? Silithus? HALAA? There is no reason to FIGHT for halaa, even with the buff. Most battles there are very short. Either the attackers steam roll the few defenders who actually give a crap, or they get frustrated after a few deaths and leave.

You cannot really compare WoW to WAR because at their very cores they are different games with two completely different focuses (foci?). Simply listing the activities each offers does nothing to address the actual game play experienced during those activities. WoW looks to have comparable and impressive PvP on paper, but if that were the case wouldn't more PvPers be jumping up and down about WotLK instead of WAR?

I'm not saying WAR is going to be the end all be all of MMORPG's, but it will certainly offer what WoW cannot. Balanced, meaningful (for a game), and enjoyable PvP.


Oh. And Warrior-Priest. \m/ !!

[Diomades]

I'm not saying WAR is going to be the end all be all of MMORPG's, but it will certainly offer what WoW cannot. Balanced, meaningful (for a game), and enjoyable PvP.

Your post is everything I was saying and more. Completely agreed.

[Naheal]

Your post is everything I was saying and more. Completely agreed.

Balance for any game is a complete nightmare, Dio.

[Diomades]

Balance for any game is a complete nightmare, Dio.

That's right. But balancing PvP and PvE in a game that was built for PvE is impossible. Building a system from the bottom up on PvP, there's far fewer issues in balance.

[Brandub]

That's right. But balancing PvP and PvE in a game that was built for PvE is impossible. Building a system from the bottom up on PvP, there's far fewer issues in balance.

And since it's built from the ground up with PvP as it's center there is more incentive to do so. It's like Neth was saying (it is foci, by the way *wink*), since the whole deal was built for PvP balance isn't so much the goal as tactics.

The devs have stated more than once that their goal is to introduce a tactics-centered approach based precisely on the point that the classes are all different. "Balance", as we WoW players think of it, isn't even part of their plan. Their goal is to give healers that do roughly the same amount of healing with differing mechanics, ranged DPSers that do roughly the same amount of damage with differing mechanics, etc...and then let the players work out how best to utilize those differences. That's actually very simple.

WoW's balance is all fucked precisely because it was never designed to be a PvP game. They have matched classes and everyone knows how to use them. The trouble is that their system constantly breaks itself. I understand why, it just pisses me off.

You see, WoW at core, really is a PvE game. It was from the start and it is still controlled by PvE demands. There may be a lot of PvPers, now, but PvE still controls how the game progresses. The core of their userbase is the raiding guild and those people WILL stop playing if you don't constantly give them new content. No one will run the same instance ad nauseum unless they get noticeable gains from the gear they work so hard for. What does this produce? MASSIVE gear imbalance. I understand how it works, they have to keep doing this in order for the game to survive. It's self perpetuating. I kind of pity them. To keep their world running they have to keep breaking it... So, they have to make bigger and badder bosses to match the bigger and badder loot. What does this mean? They need bigger and badder DPS and MUCH bigger heals to keep up. This of course means that healing in PvP gets broken because what is just barely sufficient in their PvE raids is far too strong for small-group PvP action. So what do they do? Really the only thing they can: add more CC, which can sort of help fix heals but breaks the game in another direction, etc. Add on to that the fact that the growing body of PvPers makes noise about gear and they have to start making PvP gear to match the PvE gear. They had to give the PvPers something, so they gave them resilience. Which breaks things AGAIN! Now we have rouges hitting druids for 50 damage a pop at 70, that's ridiculous!

Like I said, I feel sorry for them. But not enough to condone it. I don't have to play in a system like that. A system that by it's own nature SIMPLY CANNOT provide equally valuable and balanced PvE and PvP.

Luckily I won't have to for long. Soon a game will come out from a company that has been closely analyzing Blizz's mistakes for three years and is being VERY careful to avoid them. Does this mean they won't make any? Hell no! We humans are really good at fucking up in new and inventive ways. But at least the same things that so anger me about WoW will be a thing of the past once WAR lands...

[Sanrin]

I've always agreed with the point that wow isnt a pvp game, it wasnt designed for that, but around the time they start having tournaments oriented around pvp it was pretty clear that a huge playerbase pvp's. WoW may not be here for pvp, but looking back at it ive spent three years of this game doing almost exclusively that. Ive played a lot of games, and a lot of MMOs but WoW has been the only one to hold my interest and Id like to really compare these two games head to head. Particularly since WoW's pvp game has been such a huge part of my experience.


Also, to be fair Bran, balanced pve can be pretty hard. Im not defending Blizz in any way, they've done a horrible job with their game and how they've treated their customers, but in the end giving players an assortment of moves to equally combat each other and then putting them against NPC's doesnt always work out...and WoW is an example of the vica versa.

[Diomades]

The Arena is coming into conversation a lot here, so I thought I'd make a point about it.

Blizzard is balancing the game on the 5v5 arena as far as PvP is concerned, and their short sightedness in doing so is setting much of the game out of whack. Changes like giving Hunters a dispell and removing their deadzone-while purely used to balance for the Arena and give Hunters something extra-it gave hunters such a substantial buff everywhere ELSE in PvP that many of the classes that used to be anti-hunter, the hunter is now eating alive. The point is, even when it comes to PvP focussed balancing, Blizzard is making it that they focus on balancing what is needed RIGHT NOW. They wanted to balance the game for Arenas to make it an e-sport, but in doing so they screwed up so much more.

Balancing on 5v5's also screws classes over that already work very hard. Shaman's best showing is in 5v5 (not nearly substantial as Druids in 2v2's) but BECAUSE of the substantial showing in 5v5's, elemental shaman got hit with a fairly substantial nerf to their PvP gear and casting and so now playing them in arena has become even harder than it used to be. Meanwhile, the 2v2 and 3v3 bracket spin out of control because the classes that excel in them are sucking badly in 5v5's and so Blizzard is trying to find new ways to BUFF them. Further setting world PvP out of place as the already weak classes that do best in 5v5's get nerfed further and the strong classes that suck at 5v5's get buffs.

It's just not a very good system for balance when you have more than arena players to think of in your decisions, but that seems to be a fact lost on Blizzard. Not everybody does the arena-hell, I'd say a minuscule amount do it seriously. The same goes for big raids. But it's these people that Blizzard caters to, and silences the casual crowd by throwing them easy loot.

[Daedraug]

....but but...*cries* what am I free renown if I play a Healer/support! *holds his Dual ritual blades, thinks of his casting ability and...sighs*

You have to remember that every healer is linked to one of the core classes. Your ease and difficulty in beating certain opponents 1v1 will be roughly the same as a dedicated type of that class, with your healing to make up for the raw tanking/melee/ranged ability they've got over you.

[Sulajin]

Just remember there's a difference between "plan to" and "will be".

Blizzard set out to have a balanced game, too. Who knows? Maybe these guys'll start trying to balance out pve more and more and more and soon enough the game will be just as much a broken whine fest as World of Warcraft.

[Sanrin]

Nah, they've already stated they're not concerned with pve. No worries.

[Raziel]

Nah, they've already stated they're not concerned with pve. No worries.

"FUCK YO' DRAGON NIGGA!
FUCK YO' DRAGON!"

[Swerto]

"FUCK YO' DRAGON NIGGA!
FUCK YO' DRAGON!"

White people should watch what they say on boards that may contain members of other ethnicities.

[Sanrin]

Dont offend dragons!

[Tarlithion]

srsly, Dragons are people too.

[Raziel]

True enough

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/d/d7/Fuck_you_i%27m_a_dragon.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF1kYAZn4o8)

[Netheryn]

I focused a lot of PvP in WoW as well, Sanrin. I would say it makes up 90% of my experiences in WoW. The fact that the PvP user base is growing like it is is the simple fact that PvE content cannot be produced quickly enough to keep people interested. PvP is always a little different, just enough so that every fight is a interesting.

The fact that blizz didn't plan for a PvP focused end-game is probably one of the most short-sighted things I ever seen in a game. Well, that's not true, but it's close. Right now they are playing catch-up to meet a demand for PvP and they release stop-gap after stop-gap to try to balance and fix the game and they only continue to break it further.

The real problem blizz has is that they are slaves to both their users and their marketing people.

Users: Balance the game, give us new stuff!
Marketing: Sell them new stuff, balance later!

So we get an expansion. Only everyone has the tier 2 and tier 3 stuff from the original release, the only way we'll get the majority of players to purchase this expansion is to make expansion users significantly more powerful. Well, now we've got to make enemies significantly more powerful. Of course, we want people to KEEP playing to get epics, so our epics need to be even MORE powerful than the greens which are already far beyond current epics. Hell, we might as well make it more than just a gear grab, let's raise the level cap and REALLY give people something to purchase the game for.

And so we end up with level 70's who can one-shot a level 62 or 63. Pre-expansion a group of low levels could fight and defeat one or two 60's. We were pro's at it, even. They were more powerful, but they certainly couldn't one-shot us or even resist everything we threw at them.

The expansion was the single most devastating thing that ever happened to WoW and they have been trying to fix it ever since.

Except marketing says: Guess what! Need more money! Expansion! Same formula as last time!

So we'll get WotLK.

Will this happen to WAR? I freakin' hope not. But if it does, it'll take em a few years to really break the game and by then maybe 40K will be in the pipeline and I can start comparing MMO's all over again.

[Raziel]

WHoo.. level 80's who have the ability to instantly combust anyone below level 67 with their eyes.

[Diomades]

Will this happen to WAR? I freakin' hope not. But if it does, it'll take em a few years to really break the game and by then maybe 40K will be in the pipeline and I can start comparing MMO's all over again.

The thing about War is that it isn't TRYING to do all those things. PvE progression will be based on PvP progression so I really don't count it as PvE. It's not a PvE game and so the only thing they really have to balance is PvP and make PvE work from it. With Blizzard however, they went into making WoW with only minimal focus on PvP and-as you said-in their short sightedness, are now trying to change the game mechanics to balance it out. Warhammer won't have this issue-there will be balance there from the word go.

[Daly]

"Killing a city leader will be the hardest thing in the game to do."

Vive le City raids!

[Sanrin]

Updated then? : O

[Tillna]

It'll make killing a city boss an accomplishment, not

"We killed Thrall!!!!"

"You did it when every one was Raiding. FAIL"

"I wanna be special..."

It'd be more like..

"I killed the guy with Gryphons!"

"DAAAAAAAMN...awesome."

"He had candy."

"sweet"

[Netheryn]

It'll definitely eliminate the whole "you raided at 3:00 am and ninjaed Thrall" argument. The whole server's population, or at least everyone fighting on that front of the war, will be involved in the city raids. Once you've pushed your faction hard enough to get to attack the city, everyone will want in on the final pay-off.

PvP that matters. I can't wait.

[Dreadbeard]

I also heard in a WAR presentation that if you come to the aid of a town or city you can be rewarded vs. sitting on your ass as Darkshire gets raped. :p

Oh, and the building fires that blaze on as you raid the enemy aren't automatic... you have to actually set the fire to raze the village. Whoo hoo!

[Lucreciaa]

Yeah your city doesn't fall to the enemy and you get to move forward and attack theirs... reward enough for me.

[Melchisedech]

Why the hell isn't this game out, yet?

Seriously, the day I get my copy in the mail, /uninstall WoW forever.

[Tillna]

gonna end up uninstalling wow due to Hard drive space, most likely

[Raziel]

It'll definitely eliminate the whole "you raided at 3:00 am and ninjaed Thrall" argument. The whole server's population, or at least everyone fighting on that front of the war, will be involved in the city raids. Once you've pushed your faction hard enough to get to attack the city, everyone will want in on the final pay-off.

PvP that matters. I can't wait.

Hopefully, though, they have servers strong enough to take that sort of graphic and bandwidth load output/input. Blizzard's got millions, but they don't have a server which can stand the load of more than 100 people in a single zone without crashing and reseting itself. WarHammer is much more graphicly intense than WarCraft, and city raids will attract a few hundred people on a server (if not the entire server population itself). If their technology isn't up to specs, then a city raid will be nothing but a big AQ Gate Opening.

10 fucking times on Twisting Nether.
in like.. 15 minutes..

[Swerto]

Why the hell isn't this game out, yet?

Seriously, the day I get my copy in the mail, /uninstall WoW forever.

QFMFT

Seriously... I don't think I'll even come back to WoW to finish my story archs with my characters.

[Netheryn]

Hopefully, though, they have servers strong enough to take that sort of graphic and bandwidth load output/input. Blizzard's got millions, but they don't have a server which can stand the load of more than 100 people in a single zone without crashing and reseting itself. WarHammer is much more graphicly intense than WarCraft, and city raids will attract a few hundred people on a server (if not the entire server population itself). If their technology isn't up to specs, then a city raid will be nothing but a big AQ Gate Opening.

10 fucking times on Twisting Nether.
in like.. 15 minutes..

With a game designed around these types of battles, you can bet the game is built to handle this sort of thing. Every 4:00 at mythic, everyone jumps into some RvR, so they've been doing a lot of internal stress testing.

When the open beta drops, you can expect them to work the kinks of out. I don't imagine it'll run at 60fps on every machine, but I doubt you'll see things like First Legion getting destroyed by varimathras because everyone lagged except for the NPCs.

Will there be lag during really intense battles? Yes. Expect it, especially on slower computers. Will the server constantly crash when there are 50+ people fighting? No. Not even.

[Lailinarel]

dio you also have to consider that WoW's hybrid classes arent really hybrids. A hybrid is something that can do multiple skills, more a jack of all trades...but that doesnt really exist in WoW. A paladin has the ability to heal, tank, and melee but since gear is the major dependency factor changing how you equip will completely change if you're even good in the other two. A ret paladin can toss out maybe four heals when fully geared/spec'd...his flash of light isnt even worth mentioning. I dont really qualify that as a hybrid. Compared to the warrior-priest which is a class that heals with various melee swings and is made to be a in-the-fight healer with cc/mezz id say that there will be more true hybrids in WAR.


Keep in mind that it wasn't always like this. I remember once upon a time, seeing warriors two hand / dw tank level 60 five man content in mediocre quality gear. Trying doing that in level 70 content, just ain't happening.

I remember ret pallies saving my ass all the time with a well timed heal in pre bc pvp, now a good holy light crits for what? One third of my hp? Oh boy. BC executed hybrid flexibility by making everything extremely gear/spec dependent.

Maybe it's just cause everyone's itemization was so bad that having a tidbit of skill was actually handy as long as it wasn't level fifty greens VS tier 2. I dunno.

[Haldren]

RET PALADINS DON'T HEAL!!!!

>.>

[Tillna]

I remember healing ST on my enhance shammy....

[Swerto]

>_>
<_<

I healed an instance as ret, I just put on plate that had a lot of spirit and intellect, and then I made sure to put seal of light on my targets, then the flash of light actually healed....


THen I went holy and was healing 4x as much


but it doesn't matter... I'm going back to prot where I belong... I hate Ret... I hate holy... -sigh-

[Netheryn]

I think the first paragraph about says it all.

Interview with Hickman (http://news.bigdownload.com/2008/05/28/pvp-vs-pve-ea-mythic-on-warhammer-age-of-reckoning)